Stone Age attitudes to rape among NI students

Here’s a shaming story about social attitudes. A new poll by Amnesty International suggests that “almost half (46%) of Northern Ireland university students believe that a woman is partially or totally responsible for being raped if she has behaved in a flirtatious manner.” I’d hoped at first that the poll was a bit of PTQ-type messing about with answering poll questions perversely but sadly, reading the detail, it wasn’t. The latest similar poll in the Republic wasn’t much more enlightened. The Irish Examiner /Red C poll earlier this year found that about one in four people agree that women are in some way responsible for being attacked.
As outrage about many social attitudes has become their regular stance, I look forward to a good blast of condemnation about these pathetic opinions from the Belfast Telegraph, which ran this small par that looked like a straight lift, with its unsubbed reference to ” the north.”
For today, comment was left to the Guardian, where Fiona Meredith observed: “The strangest thing is the deafening silence on these issues from Northern Ireland women themselves. Why do we seemingly accept the brutish attitudes, the lack of support services, the absence of basic rights? Perhaps it’s because we have no place to find a collective voice. Tribalism has successfully divided us from one another, thrown rigid barriers across potential areas of common ground.”
The Women political links in NI blog might help if it got busier. Alas the chance of a paradigm shift in attitudes to women will almost certainly be avoided later this month. An amendment to the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Bill before Westminster to extend the 1967 Abortion Act to NI. is needless to say opposed by all the NI parties, but backed by a Family Planning Association campaign. is unlikely to be selected for debate and therefore for a vote. It reminds me of Westminster’s turning the blind eye to NI in the sixties, when political involvement by the “Sovereign Parliament” just might have averted the Troubles. Sadly the Belfast Telegraph is on the wrong side on abortion reform, but that shouldn’t deter them from condemning the attitudes to rape. Rape crisis needs all the help it can get.

  • RepublicanStones

    The mind boggles at where people get this logic from and with beautiful women making dumb statements like this…

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/sep/01/1?gusrc=rss&feed=uknews

    doesn’t help matters either.

  • This is the text of my piece on Talkback yesterday:

    If a woman is standing at a street corner, offering sexual services to passers-by, does that entitle a man to rape her?
    No more than he’d be entitled to go up to a professional boxer and punch him in the face.
    If a girl in a miniskirt sits on your knee in a pub and asks you to buy her a drink — does that entitle you to rape her?
    Her behaviour might suggest that you are in with a chance of pulling if you play your cards right, but that doesn’t mean that you can steal what you haven’t been offered, any more than if she was wearing nice jewellery you’d be entitled to rip it off her neck, just because she was dangling it close to you.
    These are fairly pedestrian observations, aren’t they? There’s no need to spell them out.
    Except that nearly half of Northern Ireland University students don’t get it.
    They say that if a woman is flirtatious and gets raped, then she takes the blame. She was asking for it.
    This is among the findings of a research project conducted by Amnesty International, similar to, but worse than, findings three years ago in the UK over all.
    Well, in a world in which men think that playful and sexy women have it coming to them, it might be wise indeed to lock up your daughter.
    Or it might be wise to teach women that an awful lot of men are brutish and stupid.
    But there is no easy solution to the danger that such naivete among our students presents.
    It is not only they who think that the woman who gets raped hasn’t a leg to stand on.
    Recently the criminal injuries compensation board announced that awards to 27 raped women had been miscalculated because they had been wrongly reduced to allow for the fact that the women had been drinking. The women were therefore free to apply for the full awards to be restored to them. It isn’t clear why the compensation board couldn’t just have sent them out a cheque in the post. Most of the women have not even asked for the money back.
    Perhaps they have been humiliated enough.
    Less than 5% of prosecutions for rape are successful. Less than one in twenty.
    Add that to the known fact that many raped women decline even to seek a prosecution, and you have to conclude that rape is one of the easiest crimes to get away with.
    Easy because juries and judges will – indeed must – give the benefit of the doubt to the man – if there is no other witness – when he says she wanted it.
    And perhaps that is why young people are blithe about rape. That is why they do not picture the rapist as a violent criminal. They so rarely get to see TV footage of these men being bundled into police vans and driven off to jail from courthouses — because it’s so rarely happens.
    And these students, these unthinking young fools, in five years from now, will — some of them — be the police officers and the lawyers on whom this society will rely for the protection of women and the prosecution of violent criminals.
    Let’s hope that by then they will have acquired a little bit more savvy about how the world works.

  • JT O’Sullivan

    Helen Mirror is entitled to her opinion. She is probably more knowledgable than you are about the subject, as she has experienced it firsthand.

  • RepublicanStones

    Everyones entitled to their opinion. Even Helen MIRREN. However, we are also free to criticise those opinions and disagree with them, which is what im doing. It seems Im not entitled to mine.

  • DC

    ‘As part of an integrated strategy to end all forms of violence against women, the Northern Ireland Executive should consider a comprehensive campaign aimed at preventing violence and challenging prejudicial attitudes.’

    I would like to specifically recommend the First Minister himself to spearhead this one. I just have this gut feeling that he is the best man for this kind of campaign.

    But what do you expect from a society that is ill at ease with itself, one side embittered the other very insecure, if politics is the art of how we talk to each other then it is abrasive, rude, disrespectful, frustrating and at times incomplete without violence.

    It’s all swirling around as resentment and drips into the minds of people and thus a pathological approach develops that when unable to handle difficult and complex life situations the usual instinct is that of lashing out, perhaps a good tongue lashing but with liquor it’s likely only to go in the same direction as those ‘recreational’ riots.

    The black and white of sectarianism, the binary, the conservative approach to life suppresses the shades of grey that is a more complex life. That’s why conservative politics never appealed to me, the hard wiring of such tight morals tended to short-circuit when met with nonconformists to their own particular world view.

  • the future’s bright the future’s orange

    I’d be interested in how the questions were worded. u can pretty much get whatever answers you wish from these surveys. Too many cans, possiblies, maybes etc etc etc

  • It was Sammy Mc Nally what done it

    People may well be mixing up cause and blame here. The way a woman dresses MAY attract unwanted attention which MAY lead to rape – it doesnt mean she is to blame, she has the right to dress as she pleases and to be left alone, but it MAY mean that dressing a particular way MAY lead to a greater chance of being raped.

    Exactly the same arguement can be applied to walking alone at night – a woman should be able to do so without fear of attack – but if she does then her chances of attack increase.

  • Dave

    “Or it might be wise to teach women that an awful lot of men are brutish and stupid.”

    Geez. Let’s challenge gender stereotypes by reinforcing them. How about teaching men that an awful lot of women will marry you for your money while being extremely skilful of pretending that they’re marrying you for love, then divorce you and get as much of your hard-earned cash out of you as possible. Let’s tell them that she’ll start by saying, “I won’t marry you without a pre-nup because I love you and I don’t want your money.” She, of course, knows that you’ll think that she is sincere and really does love you because why else would she demand a pre-nup? Why? Because you’ll answer, “No, I love you too, and there’s no way we’ll ever need a pre-nup.” Bitter experience? No, I’m happily married with two teenage daughters. 😉

    Now, I don’t think any social engineering is needed. It doesn’t matter what people think. If they believed that rape was acceptable and that they intended to commit the act, then we’d need some social engineering. Until, just accept that people are capable of making up their own minds about rape or about the possible existence of “brutish and stupid” men.

  • A few additional thoughts of my own over at Belfast and Beyond, including a challenge to the Executive to tackle the huge, multi-faceted and still neglected problem of violence against women.

    Our survey may have been shocking, but at least it gave a welcome glimpse at the sort of sexist attitudes which underpin tolerance for violence aganst women. It should also serve as a wake-up call about the scale of the challenge (for all of us, not just government) in changing attitudes which appear so ingrained in our society.

  • George

    Malachi,
    Easy because juries and judges will – indeed must – give the benefit of the doubt to the man – if there is no other witness – when he says she wanted it.

    There is no obligation on a jury to give the benefit of the doubt to the alleged attacker if there is no other witness. They assess the case on the evidence presented.

    A judge can give a corroboration warning (about evidence that is uncorroborated) when the victim is the only witness in situations where the alleged victim has for example made false accusations in the past, there is evidence of a grudge by the victim, lies by the victim, nconsistency in testimony, purported retraction etc.

    Otherwise, it is for the jury and the jury alone to make the decision. The biggest problem is that unlike in other crimes you have to prove two things: the sexual assault and that the accused knew that he was engaging in sexual assault.

    As a sexual offence accusation can easily be made but is much more difficult to defend, this double lock is used.

    Throw in the hesitancy of juries, men and women, to convict, the societal stigma associated with the crime for victim, and it’s hardly surprising it’s so difficult to get a conviction.

    The question is how to prove this crime beyond a reasonable doubt?

  • Brian Walker

    Patrick and DC. Well done, trying to use the system and getting McGimpsey to take the chair and so forth.Perhaop that will deliver something. Can you see any of them making strong speeches and then approving a programme of education to start counter-acting these attitudes, taking in students, the workplace the police and the courts? And financing Rape Crisis and other women support bodies adequately? A wide range of GB comparators are available.
    Malachi describes and analyses very graphically. The media have to do a lot more to examine CONSISTENTLY the behaviour of the police and the courts but it can hardly be left to the messengers alone. By the way, what are the churches doing?

    Sammy McNally, women should indeed take care but carelessness is no defence for rape: it’s a non sequitur. Dave, it is surely obvious that in this case the stereotypes apply. And what a sad piece of misogyny. Maybe you were typing too fast.

    Overall, what has taken me aback is how this topic doesn’t seem to have got off first base since I was resident in NI a generation ago, when the first rape crisis centre was struggling for funds and rape and other forms of violence against women were routinely dismissed as “domestics” or part of a night out. I sort of thought that like gay rights, things had got better. Now why an improvement(though not nirvana) for gays but apparently not for women? Is it the absence of the right kind of campaign or the need for women to fight on such a broad front of issues? Or in a few cases, the strand of feminism that spurns help as in itself, sexist?

  • Dave

    “The question is how to prove this crime beyond a reasonable doubt?”

    You engage in social engineering that indoctrinates all citizens with propaganda to the effect that it is reasonable to believe that a woman never tells a lie, initiates a malicious prosecution, or gets a kick out of screwing a man over. Amnesty and other PC-mongers will give you all the stats that you need.

  • Sleepy head

    How many of the 47% were women?

  • DC

    “Can you see any of them making strong speeches and then approving a programme of education to start counter-acting these attitudes, taking in students, the workplace the police and the courts? And financing Rape Crisis and other women support bodies adequately?”

    The problems are wider in Northern Ireland and interconnected. Perhaps a more positive response would be yes the public sphere bodies can create a legitimate message and a strategy would be useful. But for strategies to work they need genuine and sincere messengers who remain on message outside of launching a strategy or two.

    In NI the State shapes civil society, rather than the other way round, sadly. I suppose all actors would need to coordinate to work together; however, given the failure of the FM dFM to settle their own differences and their own history of bitterness, negativity and tension leading to frustration, the state is hardly shaping a good civil society, is it? A message from McGuinness and Robinson would probably come out as extremely hollow and other executive messengers have been known to be, in my view, patronising Christian Democrats when it comes to women and their rights. So they are probably poor messengers. Think abortion.

    There might be an underlying regional theme here linked to the undercurrent of socially conservative values. Much of it is extremely conservative in relation to sexual activity, which leaves me thinking about whether there isn’t an overbearing pressure on people to abstain or think of sex as ‘dirty’. As when you begin to get into that train of thought it brings its own retardation, for example the fight against socially constructed morals vs basic biological instinct, plus that additional problem of drink.

    Domestic violence is likely to be more acceptable if there is both a culture of and tolerance to violence. In NI there has been plenty of that. My view is everyone should act in their own capacity to take tension and frustration out of the environment, and in NI where the State aruguably shapes civil society and outlook then I think Mssrs Robinson and McGuinness should be doing more already.

  • Yvette Doll

    “You engage in social engineering that indoctrinates all citizens with propaganda to the effect that it is reasonable to believe that a woman never tells a lie, initiates a malicious prosecution, or gets a kick out of screwing a man over. Amnesty and other PC-mongers will give you all the stats that you need.”

    Not the problem we have.

    PRESS RELEASE

    Dr. Esmond Birnie, Chief Spokesman on Family and Children, UUP

    13 rape convictions out of 300 rape cases is appalling.

    The rape conviction statistics for Northern Ireland (published in
    today’s Irish News) are dreadful. It would appear that Northern
    Ireland has a credibility problem in relation to gender violence.

    The problem with the Home Office is the dept. is in chaos and that
    gender violence is a concept they are unable to properly comprehend and
    the NIO is mirroring the Home Office.

    With only six rape convictions in Northern Ireland for 2005, it is very
    hard to fathom why the NIO are wasting valuable resources in order to
    legalize brothels in Northern Ireland.

    The NIO should be reviewing how sex crime is prosecuted.

    Dr. Esmond Birnie

  • wasnt me

    why dosent someone ask the psni how many malicious prosecutions there were made against guys recently…i know of at least 4 such cases in derry alone, and the bitches who make these allegations always seem to get away scot free…its a shame that they can walk away from this because theyre making everyones job more difficult in prosecuting this crime.

  • wasnt me

    we never hear eileen calder or rape crisis centre mention malicious prosecutions either….its as if they dont occur. there was a blatant one which took place in the river inn in derry a couple of years ago but ms calder or noone of her ilk was heard when an innocent young lad was dragged thru the courts by a shameless tramp.
    the courts are doing a good job by proving BEYOND REASONABLE DOUBT that those charged are guilty. ms calder and the rape crisis centre makes their job more difficult. shame on them for not tackling the issue of malicious prosecution

  • It was Sammy Mc Nally what done it

    Sleepy head

    when I heard about this report on telly – that was the first question that I asked – I suspect quite a high percentage – I say that based on previous surveys in this area. The “she’s a slag” view of women is much more prevalent in women themselves than in men – for obvious reasons.

  • Jimmy

    Of course full responsibility of the ‘action’ of rape is with the rapist 100%.
    Nonetheless there is personal responsibility, Rapist are people who cant control thier sexual urges, either always, or on the spur of the moment, who have a warped sexual view or not, now if a woman dresses or acts in such provocative sexual way,a sick individual is going to see it differently.
    If you walk in to a lions cage, your gonna get eaten.
    Liberal minds are appalled by this survey, but it shows the folly of liberalism, wishful thinking and alturism in a world were animal instincts still prevail,natural flirtation by females and aggresive responses by ‘some’ males. Both need to be tackled robustly,to deny the actions of some females contributing to thier rapes because of thier behaviour is simply avoiding what we dont like to admit.
    If we take for example the classic view of the peadophile as a unshaven middle age bloke in a dirty mac,hangs around school gates and lives alone, nothing is further from the truth, a peadophile is a Father,Brother,Uncle,priest minister, school teacher vis a vis anyone, thats why we dont like to admit it, and at times deny it,I know familys that dont believe abuse victims because they cant believe uncle ‘John’ just couldnt do such a thing,its the same with women people who dont believe that women cant contribute to thier rape in part, are also living in denial.
    There is a differance between a night out and things getting out of hand, circumstances including a womens behaviour,this is oppossed to a predatory rapist though, I think a lot of people are forgeting those distinctions in this particular thred.

  • TAFKABO

    Rapists are people who dont control their urges, not “can’t”.

    Why should we be at all surprised by this survey when we can see poster after poster line up on this thread to unload their misogyny (words chosen deliberately).

    Only yesterday I saw someone post on Slugger that they’re not racist, they just don’t like all those whiny blacks who live off welfare cheques.

  • runciter

    a challenge to the Executive to tackle the huge, multi-faceted and still neglected problem of violence against women.

    How is it more neglected than the issue of violence against men – a much greater problem?

  • Two comments:

    Firstly, I doubt if many of the commenters actually are misogynist, TAFKABO. I suspect that what people mean to say (as I do) is that, knowing that there is a real risk of crime happening, a sensible person does whatever he or she can to avoid it. This is why we put locks on our doors – of course burglars should not burgle, and they are 100% responsible for their actions, but we all recognise that there is badness out there, so we do our best to thwart it. If I refused to put a lock on my door, and passers-by could clearly see my valuables, and they got stolen, can you imagine what I would be told by the police, by my insurance company, and by every normal person? The responses to this survey, I imagine, are couched in that kind of thinking. Women know that there are ‘bad’ men out there, so if they are sensible, they will avoid the risk. Of course the men can control themselves, but we all know that some will not – just like the burglars and thieves. I guess the survey respondents meant that they felt that some women do not do everything reasonable to minimise their risks.

    Secondly, I read comments like ‘As part of an integrated strategy to end all forms of violence against women, the Northern Ireland Executive should consider a comprehensive campaign aimed at preventing violence and challenging prejudicial attitudes’ as a very obvious play for money. Another injection of tax-payers hard-earned into the pockets of another quango. No ‘comprehensive campaign’ will stop the kind of men who rape, especially if it is run by the kind of unrealistic middle-class liberals who currently monopolise these kinds of things. What prevents rape (and some other violence) is simpler things like better street-lighting, visible policing, and greater societal cohesion. But these things won’t employ many sociologists on inflated salaries, so the quangocracy won’t push for them!

  • Gav

    ‘How is it more neglected than the issue of violence against men – a much greater problem?’

    1 in 4 women and 1 in 6 men suffer domestic violence. The problem isn’t greater, it’s just less talked about.

  • Gay,

    Violence against men is not all domestic. The overwhelming majority of victims of violence (murder, assault, etc) are men. Look at the statistics on murders (the ultimate in violence). You’ll find that men are a large majority of the victims.

  • Rory

    I largely concur with what Horseman had to say in post 22 and his later post 24 resurrects memories of a move some years ago to destigmatise the crime of rape by effectively removing sexual content from the face of the charge and including it along with all other crimes of violence against the person albeit one of some gravity of seriousness. I haven’t however heard much about this proposal recently and wonder where its advocates have gone.

    I do not think that Helen Mirren’s remarks should be howled down without consideration. Most women of my acquaintance take a rather different view of what is called ‘date-rape’ than they they do of the sudden attack by a stranger and I suspect that this is the mindset that contributes to the failure of so many prosecutions even when, and perhaps especially when, the jury has a majority of women. That and the knowledge that vindictive, unfounded allegations against innocent men are sadly not unknown.

    I do not know if the hey-day of the “All men are potential rapists” has passed over but since it was such a meaningless slogan in the first place being both true and ridiculous at the same time – all men are also potential saints and, potentially, mass-murderers or world benefactors -but it was born from the smug, self-regard of those disappointed with life and with little care for actually dealing with its difficulties.

  • Yvette Doll

    “why dosent someone ask the psni how many malicious prosecutions there were made against guys recently…i know of at least 4 such cases in derry alone, and the bitches who make these allegations always seem to get away scot free…its a shame that they can walk away from this because theyre making everyones job more difficult in prosecuting this crime.”

    Having sex with females too drunk too walk is part of British culture. Any males who fall victim to the roasting phenomena, and end up in jail for rape, it doesn’t really matter, it’s self-victimization.

    I funded a false allegation program in the states relating to a UN Rapporteurs mission, the Feds kicked in with a slanted study to make their FA stats reality,

    The only ‘false’ stuff that came out of anything, that includes the FEds, related to females mistakenly placed in male cells. didn’t really see that as false in a straight issue sense, That is more or less what we find around the world.

    I’ve also spent tens of thousands of dollars on the NASUWT false campaign, the cops in England view it as a ‘white trash’ issue. That’s the expression the FBI/Brits use about that campaign.

    From my point of view, it has few legitimate aspects, I can run through a list if you like, but why bother?

    It started off with a naked teacher supported by two teaching unions, one wised up and dumped her the NASUWT took her FA claims to their conference.

    She was naked, drunk, with her boy pupils. All these years later, the NASUWT ‘false’ campaign didn’t get any better.

    There is often an institutional expectation of a free pass in Britain.

    In my hood?

    In West Belfast out of a 100 rapes reported, 01 to 06, there was one conviction. How much better than Pakistan is that if we have our calculators out?

    And so…

    The false allegation thing is a huge problem, but not for the reasons many people think. The major child home events, they all have FA campaigns attached to them, and for the most part, it is just a pack of pedophiles with a club and a web-site. Vindication avoids them.

    How many authenticated false allegations against teachers, police officers, care workers, jail guards, how many are there? In Britain it is about one per thousand LIST 99 referrals.

    The FA stuff is usually people asking to have sex on a freebie with kids, drunk girls, in jail cells, it does give an insight into the mindset and that conforms to the AI study,

    there are people who rape kids, or women, and actually expect to get away with it, and scream FA if they’re one of the tiny number of rapists who are held to account.

  • Danny Boy

    It sickens me that every single discussion I have about rape becomes at some point a discussion about hypothetical lying women. No research has ever shown that false allegations of rape are more common than false allegations of any other crime, and given the fact that rape allegations so rarely end in conviction, and that women making them are seen as either ‘shameless tramps’ (see above) or as having irresponsibly flaunted the fact they have vaginas (see above again), there is much less reason for your average guy to fear being accused of rape than there is for him to fear being accused of burglary, fraud, murder, etc. We don’t hear men getting so hysterical about those possibilities, though.

    Also, let’s not forget that the place a woman is most likely to be raped is in her own home, and the people most likely to rape her are male relatives and men she knows well. Demanding that women show more fear of streets and strangers in order to show they’re not ‘asking for it’ completely misses the point.

  • susan

    Greg, I knew it was you before I clicked on “Yvette Doll’s” email address for confirmation.

    I think Patrick Corrigan and Amnesty have performed a real service with this survey. Fiona Meredith’s piece in the Guardian makes strong, Northern-specific points, Malachi’s condemnation of rape is loud and strong, although I do question his linking of brutality with the trait of stupidity — brutality is found in all classes, and education levels, every religion and none. And I think Brian Walker is continuing the dialogue and questioning the survey was meant to spark.

    I think if Miss Fitz, as a nurse, as an educator, gets a moment, she would probably have much of value to say on this thread.

    I think keeping in mind that this was a survey of students, not male students, but male and female students together, is important. There are women who’ve falsely reported rape, but a far greater number of women are victims of rape and never report it as a crime or even seek pyschological or medical help for the trauma. Out of fear of stigmatisation, or based on objective distrust of the power of the police and courts to obtain justice, fear of loss of their privacy and the disruption of their daily life, or the lives of their parents, their children, or their significant others.

    Or, most damagingly, because they blame themselves for their attack. That’s a tragic dimension of the attitudes in this survey, attitudes many of us understand far better than we’d wish to admit.

    I’ve seen studies that the psychological damage is usually greater when a victim knows her attacker.

    I think it is just as important to convince women that real rape isn’t only when there is a weapon, or a dark alley, as it is men.

    And as a small practical step, self-defense courses for students are practical, and not that expensive. It won’t help you against an assailant with a loaded weapon, but a hell of a skill to have against an assailant who’s merely loaded.

  • Yvette Doll

    “why dosent someone ask the psni how many malicious prosecutions there were made against guys recently”

    I do.

    I have been in sexual politics for over thirty years, and some of that in eastern Europe, when it was controlled by the Soviets, and I can say a straight malicious allegation, isn’t going to appear too often. There will be long periods when you simply don’t have any that stick.

    We have had similar issues to the following Amnesty commentary in Northern Ireland, with bio-trace evidence. The events (subsequently) being picked up as false allegations by professional bodies.

    It’s not so straightforward. my work in Britain is more or less the exact same as the jail guard abuses in the USA. I deal with the exact same type of people.

    The unions here have identical mindsets, with no obvious variation, as the prison unions did in the Alabama, or the other Cool Hand Luke places across the United States.

    When prison guards in the USA, in 97 or 98, asked me why Amnesty and the UN were pounding them for having the same position as unions in Britain,

    it was a problem, we were (as it happens) asking for higher standards in Alabama, than for up the road from the Amnesty International (IS) office.

    But a FA or a malicious one, you can’t punish somebody, if there is no due process. To adjudicate a punishment, one has to authenticate the malicious allegation.

    If ‘lying to police’ disqualified a person from pursuing a claim of malicious allegation, we possibly wouldn’t have any at all connected to the type of cases I tend to do.

    Yvette Doll

    ‘In September 1999, a prison guard was convicted of sexually abusing an 18-year old female inmate at Albion Correctional Facility. The guard had been charged with felony sodomy for allegedly forcing the female prisoner to perform oral sex in a staff bathroom, but was acquitted on this more serious charge despite DNA evidence. According to media reports, the prisoner testified that she spat the guard’s semen into a lipstick tube and hid it in a locker after the assault; a forensic scientist testified that there was a “one-in-54 quadrillion chance” that the semen was not the guard’s.’

    http://www.tgorski.com/news_analysis/male_guards_in_women's_prisons.htm

  • susan

    Excellent post, Danny Boy.

  • Yvette Doll

    “Greg, I knew it was you before I clicked on “Yvette Doll’s” email address for confirmation.”

    I’m so gay as to be so obvious, it’s my trademark.

    You can go to web-site, listen to some of my stuff. I think I started Britain’s first sexual phonograph label. I had a series of girls names dating back to the 1970s.

    I think Patrick has to be applauded, I also like Malachi’s take on it.

    I worked on Amnesty campaigns, a UN one really but I took over legislative campaigns because I had people in situ, in the USA, I also arranged lawyers for female inmates etc. Amnesty had a Not Part of my Sentence campaign.

    To this day, in fairness to Patrick’s organization, that work still defines what Esmond Birnie and me tried to do in relation to sex-trafficking & rape. Certainly in relation to ‘limited’ consent.

    From the very beginning in South Belfast, we used the jail guard campaigns as an important aspect of our definition of ‘consent’.

    Yvette Doll

  • Yvette Doll

    “Demanding that women show more fear of streets and strangers in order to show they’re not ‘asking for it’ completely misses the point.”

    I would add something to that, as a ‘cultural stranger backdrop’. It support Patrick’s campaign about the pervasiveness of adverse attitude.

    ‘In just three years detectives have identified almost 14 MILLION sickening downloads across the length and breadth of the country.’

    http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/news/article10997.ece

    There are a lot of people one would want to avoid in dark parks. child pornography, is a form of extreme pornography.

    When you see OFSTED asking 14 year olds to buy Lads magazines, eventually a lot of them will indoctrinate themselves into more extreme stuff.

    That other human beings are there, purely to be exploited, as a sex idea.

  • Mayoman

    “No research has ever shown that false allegations of rape are more common than false allegations of any other crime.”

    Is there a 50% rate of people faslely accusing other people of burglary? Surely the very nature of the crime makes your comparison’s facile! There is evidence for a great degree of FA with rape.

    This isn’t it anyway denying the absolute appalling crime of rape. But hanging the total cause of a low convcition rate at ‘mens’ feet ignores the elephant in the room! Every woman who makes a false accusation of rape or violence against a man limits the ability of real victims to get justice.

    http://www.glennsacks.com/blog/?page_id=1334

    “Murphy is correct that rape is a horrible crime. But false accusations of rape are every bit as horrible. They are a form of psychological rape that can emotionally, socially, and economically destroy a person even if there is no conviction, especially for those of less fame and fortune than Bryant. The stigma attaches to the falsely accused for life. Few believe them and few care. Prosecutors systematically refuse to prosecute the perpetrators. And victims’ advocates like Murphy refuse to see falsely accused men as victims, and instead work to minimize and conceal the problem.”

    OK, so its US research, but anyone think its different ‘here’ or ‘there’?

  • Yvette Doll

    The phenomena of false rape allegations has significantly influenced the development of legal doctrine and enforcement.

    I’ve been in sexual politics for thirty years, FAs are often defined by people who simply don’t want to prosecute rapists.

    There are a lot of predatory males who think they have been falsely accused, they are a dime a dozen. Similarly there are paedophiles who feel ‘seduced’ by their victims.

    It’s in their heads, and there is no shortage of judges, guy-advocates, and police officers, who feel exactly the same way as them.

    The Amnesty report, there are lots of people who feel, they should be allowed to rape other people.

    The length and breadth of Britain, there are huge numbers of males, who feel that having sex with the barely conscious, is normal and there are police who will agree with them.

    If gang-rapists film stuff, their chances of a conviction are virtually nil, that has worked time and again. It is a staging thing, and very effective.

    The police take a segmented view, without the tableau, properly time-lined, a girl on her knees doing oral sex ( on video) is just a girl on her knees doing oral sex.

    Similarly date rape drugs that affect inhibition, a CCTV of a girl leaving a nightclub.

  • Yvette Doll

    “Surely the very nature of the crime makes your comparison’s facile! ”

    It is no more difficult to prove perverting the course of justice as it is to prove an insurance fraud, to pretend that crimes are not prosecuted is silly, in fact the evidence in Britain is that ‘roasting’ victims are prosecuted.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2006/oct/25/penal.crime

    If a group of guys pour a bottle of vodka into a teenager, she is the person who will be cautioned or found guilty or go to jail.

    Having sex with girls blitzed out of their heads on drugs, alcohol, or traffic light chemical-drinks, the police do prosecute or caution those girls, children or women.

    Footballers in Britain are on a free pass and there is a mass culture who want similar roasting rights and magazines endorsing that behavior, and OFSTED wanting to use the latter as sex-ed.

    Patrick, to give him credit, was doing some good work there with that survey.

    Yvette Doll

  • lolzipoo

    i think youre getting off on talking about this gregory

  • TAFKABO

    Try typing Greg’s full name and the word paedophilia into Google and you’ll see just how much he gets off on this stuff.

    Here is just one sample of the stuff Greg says.

    written by Gregory Carlin , 24 June, 2008

    A lot of gay advocates were harassed and driven out of gay liberation for not being ‘queer enough’ and that meant, in its day, being a pedophile.

    There were also gay groups who wouldn’t let a person join unless one was openly, pro-pedophile, those were the rules. There was nothing at all wrong with that article.

    There is a subculture of pedophilia among gays, that is why gay organizations name their buildings and prizes after notorious pedophiles.

    And that is also why it took years for them to get observer status at the UN. So there you are. It is not Paul Sheehan’s fault that the gay organizations can’t keep their project semi-respectable.

    Greg think everyone is a paedophile, except for his employers the Catholic Church.

  • Yvette Doll

    There is no getting away from that gay civil war is there? It was unpleasant.

    I’ve been in sexual politics for over thirty years, and one has been around the block a few times.

    When I started? The PIE, PAL, COC, they were all pro-pedophiles, the GLF had sixty or seventy pedophiles at meetings, when the GLF was on its last legs, it was a pedophile grouping.

    The observer status was a Helms bill, the ILGA had to expel the pedophile groups such as NAMBLA etc.

    In 1994, President Bill Clinton signed into law a bill proposed by Republican Senator Jesse Helms to withhold $119 million in U.N. contributions until it could be shown that –

    “no UN agency grants any official status, accreditation, or recognition to any organization which promotes, condones, or seeks the legalization of pedophilia, that is, the sexual abuse of children”.

    The Terence Higgins Trust named a prize after a founding member ( Ian Dunn) of the Paedophile Information Exchange in 2007, as far as I am aware no explanation was offered for that.

    It was the PSNI and NIO that provided the cover re: your last sentence, Northern Ireland? the UUP and myself publicly criticized the arrangements.

    I always ask the UUP to chide the Catholic Church over unwanted private arrangements, the SDLP and Sinn Fein tend to stay out of it.

    I do my best, Catholicism is not a democracy, the regional bishops don’t have to listen to me. I have to to take my complaints to Rome and via the Catholic media.

    Rspectfully submitted

    Yvette Doll

    Ireland) Clerical abuse probe widens

    From: Gregory Carlin
    To: esmond birnie
    Date: 08 Feb 2007 – 5:27p.m.

    http://www.belfasttoday.net/ViewArticle2.aspx?SectionID=3425&ArticleID=2023129

    Clerical abuse probe widens
    The PSNI are still
    considering a Ferns-style inquiry into clerical sex abuse across
    Northern Ireland dating back to the 1960s, it has been confirmed.

    In October 2005, after an official Irish Government inquiry, the Ferns
    Report concluded bishops had covered up sexual abuse of children by 21
    priests since 1966 to 2002 in the Ferns diocese.
    The PSNI and Department of Health then met with the Roman Catholic
    Church two months later about the implications for Northern Ireland.
    More than six formal meetings took place, with police meeting Church
    legal representatives in January, 2006.
    In March last year, it is understood the Church provided statistics on
    allegations of child abuse within Northern Ireland and a summary of
    every allegation has been handed over to police.
    A PSNI police spokesman has now confirmed the probe is still ongoing.
    He said: “A formal investigation is being conducted and on completion a
    report will be passed to the Public Prosecution Service as appropriate.”
    However, despite such a lengthy investigation, on Jan- uary 15 a
    spokesman for the Government said in Parliament that they did not know
    how many Roman Catholic officials have been interviewed by police in
    Northern Ireland or charged in relation to withholding evidence of
    child abuse over the past 10 years.
    Minister Paul Goggins told MP Teresa May that the PSNI said the
    information was not available in the requested format and could be
    provided only at disproportionate cost.
    A Department of Health spokeswoman said: “Officials have met with
    senior representatives of the Roman Catholic Church on a number of
    occasions following publication of the Ferns Report.
    “DHSSPS has written to the main churches inviting them to participate
    in an audit of their child protection procedures with a view to
    providing them with guidance.”
    The UUP family affairs spokesman Esmond Birnie said: “An independent
    inquiry could be very helpful in restoring public confidence. I am not
    completely convinced the Church has done all it can to restore public
    confidence since Ferns.”
    A spokesperson for the Catholic Church said a round-up of all
    allegations since 1965 had been given to the police, adding that the
    Catholic Church was the first institution in Northern Ireland to have
    voluntarily conducted such a survey.
    05 February 2007

    « Previous Page

    Next »

    Page 1 of 1

    Notes from Gregory

    Officials from the DHSSPS and representatives of
    the PSNI met with the
    Roman Catholic Church on 20 December 2005. DHSSPS and PSNI and again on
    6 February 2006. The PSNI met separately with legal representatives of
    the Roman Catholic Church on 17 January 2006. The Catholic Church has
    undertaken to supply information relating to allegations of child abuse
    against clergy to the PSNI.

    Officials from the DHSSPS met senior representatives of the Roman
    Catholic Church on 8 March 2006. The PSNI met the Roman Catholic Church
    on 27 February 2006. At the meeting on the 8 March 2006, the Catholic
    Church provided statistics re: allegations of child abuse within
    Northern Ireland. There may have been further meetings etc.

  • Yvette Doll

    “There were also gay groups who wouldn’t let a person join unless one was openly, pro-pedophile, those were the rules. There was nothing at all wrong with that article.”

    Those were the rules. Lesbians often got expelled or forced to leave first. That can be a sign of a group take-over, or a change in focus.

    So obviously PIE, PAL, NAMBLA, PNVD, if you are not a pedophile, you were or are out, that was the deal, why would pedophiles want non-pedophiles in their groups? That wouldn’t make sense.

    with the COC, the largest gay grouping, you had to be a pro-pedophile, or accepting of pedophilia until recently anyway, the GLF, was more a mixed thing, they had pedophile groups attached.

    In Amsterdam, if a person talked of a gay gene or something, like being ‘afflicted’ by gayness, neither one side or the other would give him the time of day. He wouldn’t be Queer.

    So one could say “we are all homosexuals” and that would be ok, that’s a will to power, or I could say “homosexuality doesn’t exist” and that was also ok,

    what one couldn’t say, was that a chromosome made you good at picking curtains, that kind of person was out the door, he was no use to what we were tying to do.

    Gay liberation, was not about being straight, or asking for a medical pass to toleration.

    Peter Tatchell, would, despite the fact he was and is on the other side of the fence to me, would still be true to the idea of ‘will to power’, one is gay not because of a gene, but because that is what one decides to be.

    Yvette doll

    The decline of sexual radicalism in The Netherlands

    ‘These orga­nizations also suggested more radical objec­tives such as the aboli­tion of marria­ge, of coupledom and gender and sexual dicho­tomy. In the language of those times, Zelden­rust-Noordanus stated “homo­sexuality does not exist”, meaning there was no separate homo- or hete­rosexual iden­tity. Both organiza­tions sup­ported erotic diver­sity inclu­ding pedop­hilia, sadoma­sochism and exhibitio­nism. Hetero­sexual relations and marriage were being attacked as being oppressi­ve, especi­ally for women

  • Penelope

    Well said Danny Boy, well said indeed. Pity the point has been lost in the ridiculous turn this thread has sunk to.

  • TAFKABO

    Dress it up in a blitzkrieg of bullshit if you have to but you’re not providing one iota of evidence for your homophobic claims.
    The next time a gay man gets beaten to death in Northern Ireland I’ll remind you of how you helped fuel the hatred.

  • TAFKABO

    Go back through a lot of threads relating to sexual matters and you’ll see the same peron hijacking them by spamming posts about himself and his crusade.

  • Yvette Doll

    Tafkabo

    Esmond Birnie (UUP) and myself have worked with rape crisis professionals over many years in relation to rape and sex crime in Belfast & Northern Ireland.

    I think you introduced the issues being complained about. I had confined myself to my work with the UN which was (in fairness to Amnesty) attached in the popular mind to the ‘Not Part of my Sentence” campaign by AIUSA.

    Other than that, the points I made were much the same as presented by Julie Bindel in her article.

    You might be better advised not to introduce material about pedophilia to Slugger, if you are not wanting to see it discussed.

    Yvette Doll

  • Yvette Doll

    “Dress it up in a blitzkrieg of bullshit if you have to but you’re not providing one iota of evidence for your homophobic claims. ”

    TAFKABO

    I’m the expert in dressing up, I feel that also somewhat diminishes your other point.

    The largest gay organization in the world, the COC, staked everything on a program to legalize pedophilia. In the UK, there was a similar trend, with the GLF, PAL, NCCL & PIE.

    In the USA, Jesse Helms and Bill Clinton were on the same side, in relation to the ILGA, they lost their status at the United Stations.

    In Britain, PIE/PAL had more success in establishing political relationships than NAMBLA did in the United States, the National Council of Civil Liberties proceedings being a case in point.

    It is not that unusual for public figures in Britain to endorse activities viewed as criminal by the United Nations. OFSTED for example have a long track record for the promotion of pupil/teacher sex.

    “The next time a gay man gets beaten to death in Northern Ireland I’ll remind you of how you helped fuel the hatred.”

    I’m the most historically gay thing Slugger is ever likely to see.

    I once returned from the conversion of the Deutsche Demokratische Republik to homosexuality, to find punk bands in Huddersfield singing ‘Be My, Be My, Yvette Doll’.

    http://catalog.ebay.co.uk/Demo-Recordings-1981-1983_5060134140084_W0QQQ5ftrksidZp4295QQ_fclsZ1QQ_pidZ59435665QQ_tabZ1

    The mistake I made was becoming an ICON in the DDR, instead of arresting Robert Mugabe.

    All the best

    Yvette Doll