“History is like a knife..”

The report in the Sunday Tribune on the Oireachtas Select Committee on Education and Science report on teaching modern Irish history contains a compelling argument.

History teachers said they avoided Northern Ireland because it “can raise discriminatory attitudes in class and name calling”. There was little support for introducing it in the classroom, they said.

Other reasons given by teachers for avoiding the subject were they felt they lacked knowledge of the subject and believed they could not compete with the information the students got from their communities and families. [added emphasis]

But the report warns this will have to change. “If students do not learn about modern Irish history in a school context, will they be skilled enough to interpret what they see in the media outside school?” it asks.

Among the report’s recommendations [Word doc]

Recommendations:

• There needs to be a full acceptance at political level that History is a subject that can assist in a very vital part of a child’s development in this era of changing dynamics and continue to support changes that are still deemed necessary.

• Former approaches to History stressed a single interpretation of events as being “the Truth”. It is now internationally accepted that there can be many views and interpretations, which are based on evidence, and there is validity to the Multiple Perspective approach that assists and encourages students to respect diversity and cultural difference rather than reinforce the more negative aspects of Nationalism.

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  • Steve

    Which of the 2 histories are they going to teach?

  • HeadTheBall

    “Which of the 2 histories…”

    Which 2 histories are you cherrypicking out of the many available to posit only 2?

  • Steve

    tell me all the histories you see htb

  • Steve,

    Religion, class, gender, nationalist, unionist, socialist, Ireland as part of Britain, Ireland as part of Europe, Irish diaspora, economic etc etc.

  • El Paso

    “Ireland as part of Britain” would be better dealt with in Geology.

  • Well El Paso, I could have said the UK but I was also thinking before 1800. And British Crown possessions took too long to type.

  • percy

    the schizophrenia has to end:
    Irish people pretending they’re British for e.g

  • Steve

    Gari

    Those arent different histories they are different sections of history

    As I see it there are 2 basic histories to nIreland

    Nationalists see it as an illegal and immoral occupation by the english government that allowed unionists to murder, rob and disenfranchise people as they seen fit

    Unionists see it as paeceful wonderful part of the UK in which they are constantly attacked with out provocation by the feninan bastatards they so graciously allow to be second class citizens instead of slaves

  • Ulsters my homeland

    While these Irish historians waste their time focusing on Irish history, the true nature of Ulster’s history will undoubtedly shine through.

    Irish Nationalists and Republicans who live in Ulster should firstly acknowledge Ulster’s uniqueness on this island and secondly understand what made the Ulster people, before trouble started. They should also stop forcing Irish nationality and identity onto the Ulster people and allow the Ulster people to learn their unique history on this island.

    Irish Nationalism/Island Unity is the root problem behind our troubles, not those people who invaded. The sooner Nationalists and Republicans realise that when people on this island, or people from elsewhere, claim they own the island and want all it’s people Nationalised in one form or another, this is when the trouble starts. Brian Boru claimed he was king of the island, and the Ulster people resisted him, the Pope claimed he owned, gave it to King Henry II and the Ulster people resisted.

    The problem is the idea of Irish Nationalism/Irish unity.

    Irish Nationalists and Republicans should stop restricting Ulster and it’s people by borders and counties. That idea where Ulster and it’s people were hemmed in by borders into a workable area is alien to them in the first place. The idea is based on others managing the Ulster people instead of the Ulster people managing themselves. It’s a restriction placed upon them, forced by foreigners in order to nationalise either to pay St.Peters pence or to indoctrinate them with rules. When Irish Nationalists and Republicans use these restrictions on Ulster, they are doing the work of their masters the English and the Roman Priests.

    Foreigners with grand ideas have destroyed the true nature of Ulster. It’s about time, people woke up to this fact.

  • Steve

    UMH

    Are you trying to claim back the missing three from the republic?

  • Steve,

    Lots of people would totally dispute your definition of those as sections of history, myself included. You see it as two basic histories. But historians of gender, for example, would argue that both those types of history have marginalised the history of gender, and told us very little about it. I think its best to accept that there are multiple strands of history, and we choose to stress those we prefer.

  • Ulsters my homeland

    “[i]Are you trying to claim back the missing three from the republic?”[/i]

    You obviously haven’t read my post. The decision of how large or how small Ulster is, lies with the Ulster people, noone else.

  • Pete Baker

    Could we try to focus on the actual topic?

    Which, in the case of the Oireachtas report, is the point, made by teachers, that there is a difficulty in teaching modern Irish history [particularly NI history] when it has to “compete with the information the students got from their communities and families.”

  • Democratic

    “Unionists see it as paeceful wonderful part of the UK in which they are constantly attacked with out provocation by the feninan bastatards they so graciously allow to be second class citizens instead of slaves”

    LOL – Why don’t you volunteer to teach Northern Ireland history to our Southern cousins’ children Steve – with such a remarkable knack for accurately capturing the mentality and history of “themmuns” you could easily help nurture and brainwash – sorry – instruct a new generation of future Irish “patriots” for the struggle ahead….
    You could also get your friend Percy to run a parallel class in the stupidity of the planter idiots still “pretending” to be British – and after all this time too….shocking!

  • Steve

    UMH

    Ulster peole werent asked their opinion only unionists

  • Republic of Connaught

    Sorry, Ulster’s my homeland, but the people who invaded are indeed the problem in my eyes. Back then in the violent days of the plantation they came to this island with distinct orders from their English masters; be loyal to the English crown and suppress the disloyal Gaelic natives as vehemently as possible.

    400 years on and the descendants of the Ulster settlers passionately carry on their “loyal” work, to the detriment of this island.

    But Ulster is no more distinct on this island than is Connaught, Munster or Lenister. All 4 provinces have their own proud, unique histories.

    It’s all combined Irish history in the end. And Connaught was declared a Republic in 1798 before NI was ever dreamt about by Loyalists so if anything we in the west are more “special” than all you other provincial muckers!

  • Democratic

    Looks like Republic of Connaught could join Percy and Steve in administering the new “6 counties” history module down Mexico way – opening lesson entitled “The problem all started with themmuns and here’s why!”….LOL!

  • Republic of Connaught

    Democratic, up in Alaska you lot might finally start learning a lesson called “integrating into host country”.

    Saves a lot of problems in the long term when you move to a new place, as the Vikings and Normans proved on this island before the unruly ones arrived in Ulster.

  • Ulsters my homeland

    Republic of Connaught

    “[i]Sorry, Ulster’s my homeland, but the people who invaded are indeed the problem in my eyes.”[/i]

    No need to apologise. If you think it’s the invaders who are to blame and not the ideas they bring, can you explain why the vikings are not considered enemies in the same sense the English are? Both tool advantage that the island wasn’t nationalised and both brought the same ideas of island unity/Nationalism. So if it’s the people who are the problem can you clarify why the people matter more than the ideas they bring?

    “[i]Back then in the violent days of the plantation they came to this island with distinct orders from their English masters; be loyal to the English crown and suppress the disloyal Gaelic natives as vehemently as possible.”[/i]

    Hold on a minute, you seem to be stuck in a time warp here. I’m not necessarily referring to one period in time, I’m looking a trend through different periods.

  • Reader

    Republic of Connaught: you lot might finally start learning a lesson called “integrating into host country”.
    Or “You will be assimilated”. Unlike the Gaels before us, who managed to transplant much of their culture and language; or the Europeans who colonised the two American continents.
    History will tell, eventually. But, as Chou En Lai said – “It’s too soon to tell”.

  • Democratic

    “Democratic, up in Alaska you lot might finally start learning a lesson called “integrating into host country”.”
    LOL – Maybe that’s the conclusion you should look for in the essays of your future pupils Republic of Whatsisname – send all those pesky Northern Prod Planter types off to Alaska – that’ll learn ’em. At least it’s original I suppose – drive ’em back across/into sea is the classicical republican tosh. ….

  • Republic of Connaught

    UMH,

    The Vikings didn’t try and govern the island from Scandinavia for a few centuries. They settled and became, “more Irish than the Irish themselves”.

    The English could have done the same as the Scandinavians and became as native as anyone else here; but that wasn’t their aim. Perpetually using Ireland as a colony for England’s agenda was their sole aim.

    The invaders in and of themselves aren’t a problem because they were/are of the same race and also christians.

    Complete failure to integrate with the majority “natives” was and is the problem with Ulster Loyalists. All countries have regional differences, but Ulster Loyalists believe themselves to be from another planet to catholic Irish, which is a farce.

    All people on the British Isles are pretty much the same from a global perspective. That doesn’t mean England, Ireland, Scotland, Wales shouldn’t be politically independent countries if the majority wish it so. As they did in Ireland before partition.

    As they will in Scotland in 20 years.

  • Republic of Connaught

    Democratic, you initially use Mexico to describe the South but if I use Alaska in retort I’m the aggressor? LOL. Hypocrite?

    Did Unionist governments and their policies not try and “encourage” pesky Taigs to go down to “Mexico” for long enough? The irony is comical if you had the wit to grasp it.

  • Democratic

    “Complete failure to integrate with the majority “natives” was and is the problem with Ulster Loyalists. All countries have regional differences, but Ulster Loyalists believe themselves to be from another planet to catholic Irish, which is a farce.”
    Your narative gets better and better Republic – keep it coming….British and proud my friend (and feeling moreso every time a thread like this comes up!) – you remember to pass that on to your charges too…

  • Democratic

    “Democratic, you initially use Mexico to describe the South but if I use Alaska in retort I’m the aggressor? LOL. Hypocrite!”
    Ah so that’s what the Alaska business was about – a misunderstanding then – I was thinking in more literal terms – my apologies for that one Republic.

  • Ulsters my homeland

    Republic of Connaught

    “[i]The Vikings didn’t try and govern the island from Scandinavia for a few centuries. They settled and became, “more Irish than the Irish themselves”.”[/i]

    “more Irish than the Irish themselves” is a revision of history. The Viking invasion brought the idea of island Nationalism/unity to the native people, that’s how Brian Boru got the notion into his head, using the Viking idea of force. That phrase you used is proof of Irish revisionism taking place, hoodwinking the people that life on this island was always based on unity and Irishness. Revisionism at it’s ‘Irish’ best, LOL

  • Republic of Connaught

    Eh, I didn’t say you weren’t British, Democratic. But when a Unionist gets a bit confused he spits it out anyway robotically. “I’m British, uh, f-you Fenian. Rule Britannia. No surrender” LOL.

    The sovereignty and unity of Ireland is all that concerns me, not what all the people in it call themselves.

  • ulsterfan

    Republic of Connaught

    You have hit the nail on the head—All our trouble rests with the failure of those Unionists/loyalists not integrating with the natives.
    All would be well if unionists became Catholic Gaelic and denounced any loyalty to a British way of life.
    While we are on the subject lets have a redistribution of land and bring back the Brehon laws.
    The Pope could also apologise for ordering King Henry to invade Ireland in the first place.
    All in agreement please confirm that we might make progress and turn the clock back

  • As a former college teacher who taught courses about Ireland, Northern Ireland, and Britain, I certainly think that a course in modern Irish history which deals with Northern Ireland can be taught, though I never taught a course dealing with the history of the whole island. The ones on Ireland, and Northern Ireland started to separate with WWI and the Easter Uprising.

    I must say that I am shocked to hear that teachers in the Republic avoid discussing anything regarding the North.

    While I am not about to provide an outline for a course here – though I could do it – I must say that Catholic students at Holy Cross and Protestant ones at West Conn in my courses thought I was essentially a Unionist while I always considered myself a supporter of Irish independence and self-rule.

  • Democratic

    “I’m British, uh, f-you Fenian. Rule Britannia. No surrender” LOL.”
    You quoting someone in particular there with those quotation marks Republic?
    BTW you aren’t confusing anyone I promise you Republic – the ridiculous narative you have been peddling is primary schoolyard level “It is all themmuns fault” type cobblers – probably sits well with the fellow rural misty-eyed, romantic armchair republican gallery though I’m quite sure….

  • Republic of Connaught

    UMH, Ulsterfan,

    It’s amazing to me how you lads reject simple truth and reality to suit your own narrow agendas.
    No, UMH, Ireland wasn’t always based on unity, but neither was England or Scotland. Should they be cut into pieces too to suit minorities?

    Integration, Ulsterfan, is not assimilation. Check out the Irish communities in England or America and examine how they integrated over centuries and become part of their new host country whilst still maintaining their own unique historical culture. Are most Irish Americans not still Catholic even though America was primarily Protestant?

    You find common bonds that bring people together and don’t focus on differences as your rule of life. British and Irish are so similar that any foreigner wouldn’t tell the difference but for flags. So therefore we must all be pretty much alike on these islands.

    Except people in Ireland democratically chose to govern themselves independently. And our Unionist brethern suddenly tell us how impossible this is because we’re so hugely different. Which is, I repeat, a farce.

  • Greenflag

    To paraphrase that great line from ‘Cool Hand Luke’ what we have here above is a failure to communicate and even worse a failure of ‘humour’?

    As all else has failed the government now apparently feels that humour can help history teachers to spark students’ interest in Northern Ireland. Could the ‘chuckie brothers’ have been a forerunner of ‘laughing our way out of the constitutional conundrum now that it’s more than obvious that guns and fighting , politics and and endless talks and drink and no end of sociological studies and reports have failed?

    to quote

    “Humour is rampant in practically all corners of the island and humour has seen many citizens through the bleakest of times,” says the report. It can be used as a “subtle inroad” to explore sensitive issues for students, it adds. Father Ted is instanced by the report as a possible tool “for examining the cultural changes of Ireland, from it not being socially acceptable for RTÉ originally to buy it, to its being bought back at a later date having been a huge success for another station”.

    Comedians like Des Bishop, Patrick Kielty, Nuala Mc-Keever and Jimmy Young are also mentioned as people who have sent up bigotry and sectarianism and made people laugh at themselves and at “the others”.

    The rapid evolution of irreverent text humour could also be used to generate interest, the report suggests.

    It recalls a recent text before the Ireland vs England rugby game at Croke Park which read:

    “Ireland may well be without Horgan and O’Driscoll, two players that most teams would be loth to be without, but England will be without their tanks and machine guns from their last visit to Croke Park.”

    Now if you did’nt laugh at that one perhaps there’s no hope for you;)

    There you have it ‘Send in the Clowns ‘ and why not . But hang on a minute -has’nt NI been governed /half governed /been suspended in government by a never ending stream of clowns for most of it’s existence to the present day ?

    And here’s the rub – it’s no longer funny ha ha but funny ‘peculiar 😉

    Still there may be some merit in it:)

    Send for the American Bishop then ie Des Bishop 🙂

  • Pete Baker

    Trowbridge

    Just a quick ‘thanks’ for one of the few comments on this post to address the actual topic.

    As I emphasised, the interesting point is that those teachers believe that “they could not compete with the information the students got from their communities and families.”

  • Ulsters my homeland

    Republic of Connaught

    “[i]No, UMH, Ireland wasn’t always based on unity, but neither was England or Scotland. Should they be cut into pieces too to suit minorities?”[/i]

    have you thought about wales?

    RoC, here’s a tip, current nationalist ideals concerning ancient ideas simply don’t work, they fail. The only answer is to understand how the ancients work, not how you would like them to work.

  • Greenflag

    Republic of Connaught ,

    Unionists are British , a small number may describe themselves as British Irish . They do not wish to leave the UK . You cannot force or persuade somebody to be what they are not . Remaining unionists on this island are concentrated in the North East where they have maintained their traditions and ‘culture ‘ or ‘lack of culture’ since the 17th century or since before America won it’s independence .
    Try and have some respect for them . They are by and large just as good and decent a people as the rest of us on this island .

    ‘Are most Irish Americans not still Catholic even though America was primarily Protestant? ‘

    Probably not . Many of the earlier Irish emigrants made it to the States before their ‘religion’ did . You can visit Baptist graveyards all over the back country of the Appalachians and find tombstones bearing the names Dunne , Fitzgerald , O’Brien etc mixed in with the Mitchells ,Blairs , and Johnstons .

    Finding no RC Church many of these early irish just pitched up at the nearest alternative . They probably felt it was the neighbourly thing to do and in harsh frontier environment it made simple ‘survival ‘ sense .

    The finer points of theological and semantic differences had no relevance for the lives of ordinary then nor do they now . They are of course of immense importance to the brand marketeers of religion who need them to secure their revenue stream and market position among the faitfhfull 🙁

  • I talked about different aspects on this at my blog, but from the links Pete provided (kudos to him for a thorough bit of research) it seems the Sunday Tribune slightly misreported the content of the report. The teachers have problems with modern Irish history generally, not just the north. Ridiculous and lazy arguments quite frankly. There are also bigger questions raised by this about the place of education in teaching about citizenship, creating an integrated society etc.

  • Republic of Connaught

    Does anyone think about Wales in fairness? If all of us on these islands were like the Welsh we’d get along a lot better.

    My nationalist ideals don’t stem from ancient ideas UMH. They come from the modern reality that on a small island, 80 per cent of the people across the 32 counties would choose complete self determinaton in an island wide referendum.

    The minority in the North East deserve special dispensations for their historical allegiances to Britain, but they don’t deserve to hold the fate of partition in their hands. To me it’s just glaringly undemocratic and if the roles were reversed and the island was 80 per cent Unionist I’d say the same.

  • Greenflag

    garibaldy ,

    ‘The teachers have problems with modern Irish history generally, not just the north.’

    And not just Irish or NI but history generally .
    I remember having to learn dates of battles , names of Kings and Queens etc etc but easily the worst history teacher I ever had was a Kerryman who knew little and cared less about the subject he taught ‘Modern Eurpean History’. All he did was sit at a desk and and read the book notes back to us for the year we had him .

    Fortunately he was replaced by a clerical ‘brother’ who brought ‘history ‘ to life by questioning the ‘unquestionable ‘. Was Martin Luther right and the Popes wrong is one I remember ?

    Needless to say this ‘cleric ‘ was not cut out for a long career as a clerical teacher .

    ‘There are also bigger questions raised by this about the place of education in teaching about citizenship, creating an integrated society etc.’

    Yep there are indeed and they best be moving along with it and Mother Church is going to have to retreat to the back of the class but that’s another hornet’s nest .

  • Democratic

    “but they don’t deserve to hold the fate of partition in their hands. To me it’s just glaringly undemocratic and if the roles were reversed and the island was 80 per cent Unionist I’d say the same.”
    Perhaps you have never heard of the Good Friday Agreement and how the majority on this Island (you know the people you are speaking for) voted overwhelmingly to give Northern Ireland full recognition -with the constitutional issue resting on democratic majority rule….sort of makes your analogy look a bit – well silly…

  • Greenflag,

    They happily teach nazi germany or whatever without worrying about it on the basis of some reading. No reason not to do the same with modern history in Ireland.

  • “If all of us … were like the Welsh”

    Ah, yes, Wales, North and South …

  • Oilifear

    “Could we try to focus on the actual topic? [Which is] that there is a difficulty in teaching modern Irish history [particularly NI history] when it has to ‘compete with the information the students got from their communities and families.'”

    Only skimming through the comments above (apart from Trowbridge and GreenFlag). Heh! Guess you know how those teachers feel now, Pete, eh?

  • Reader

    Republic of Connaught: To me it’s just glaringly undemocratic and if the roles were reversed and the island was 80 per cent Unionist I’d say the same.
    North Down is about 90% unionist. We could dig a ditch round it and make it an island.
    More to the point – why should, say, Limerick, have a hand in deciding the destiny of Bangor?

  • RepublicanStones

    Recent history of Ireland is easy.

    Unionists ignored the consent and democratic will of the people of Ireland.

    Carved their own little statlet out of the north east, without the consent nationalists in the north.

    Now demand that everyone else wait for their consent.

    It must be great to be a unionist. Stamp your feet, get what you want. Cake…eat it.

  • Hugh Dubh Oneil

    Reader
    why should, say, Limerick, have a hand in deciding the destiny of Bangor?because 85% of ireland wants it that way
    why should say finchly,have a hand in deciding the destiny of Bangor?Because your part of the UK blah blah blah.well newsflash your also part of ireland so im afraid thats the compromise everyone made.
    Look on the bright side I,ll bet the average resident of limerick knows a lot more about the North of Ireland than there finchly opposite number.
    anyway limerick does have a say.thats the reality.unionists got there veto nationalists got the ROI having some say in what goes on up there.deal with it.

  • Brian Walker

    This thread illustrates perfectly why Irish history should be tackled in schools. Thank goodness Irish historiography is now up to the job. Professional history does not divide into two simplistic camps ; it does justice to the complexity of the subject. What is history for? To teach people how to analyse and weigh opinions with integrity and an open mind about how we got here and where we’ve reached, regardless of background or cause. But perfect objectivity is impossible and history is constantly being being reinterpreted according to two factors: the uncovering of evidence and in the light of the present. The modern approach to learning is a liberation. History does not stand still, it’s quite different from the old fashioned, outmoded game-playing we see so much of above. The study of history questions old shibboleths but take comfort, it might confirm others too.

  • Brian Walker

    PS Just to address Pete’s point, the lessons at school could provide great ammunition for the kids in the inevitable battle of the generations! Educationists shouldn’t exaggerate the problems. JC Beckett wrote the ground-breaking Making of Modern Ireland and ATQ Stewart’s the Narrow Ground more than a generation ago and these could be a good foundation. Richard English’s Ernie O’Malley: an IRA intellectual” is a great treatment of a compulsive subject. Once good background texts are introduced to give them an idea of context, the kids should do projects with as much source material as possible in order to make up their own minds. No theme should be left out and neither demonised nor idolised in advance.

  • Reader

    Hugh Dubh O’Neill: why should say finchly,have a hand in deciding the destiny of Bangor?Because your part of the UK blah blah blah.
    Finchley won’t decide. Unless you know something about the Principle of Consent that no one else here knows. Neither will Limerick. I am entirely happy with the Principle of Consent as it is been agreed.

  • Reader

    Hugh Dubh O’Neill: why should, say, Limerick, have a hand in deciding the destiny of Bangor?because 85% of ireland wants it that way
    Not enough to vote to keep it in your Articles 2 and 3. Nor is it relevant, since the vast majority of people in Bangor don’t share the identity of the 85% who apparently wish to claim us against our will.
    Will you not get it? – sharing an island is not enough to make the wishes of the people of Limerick count over our own wishes. We would need to share an identity too. Your logic would allow England to claim Scotland. Yet, when that vote next happens, it will be Scotland that makes the decision about remaining in the union

  • Republic of Connaught

    Wrong, Reader, because 43 per cent of Scottish people don’t regard themselves as English nor want unification with England. So comparing the six county Irish state with Scotland or Wales is a red herring. Morever. the GFA yes vote in the South was about an end to violence on our island. It wasn’t a unification referendum. Let’s have one and we’ll see what people think about Bangor etc..

    Now a valid comparison to the NI state would be if 80 per cent of Scottish people vote to leave the UK, then have a 20 per cent pro UK minority got the right to partition Scotland? Even if in their small partitioned state there was STILL 40 per cent of the people against its creation.

    Of course not. To see that happening in Scotland would be an outrageous affront to democracy. ie, bloodsoaked NI.

  • Brian Walker is completely right to bring this most important thread back to topic.

    I found Irish history one of the most exciting courses I ever taught, and I too started off with J. C. Beckett’s Making of Modern Ireland a quarter century ago, then adding things like a slide show, and accompanying lecture of Celtic treasures, the Vikings’ role in the development of Europe, Anglo-Irish relations during Tudor and Stuart times, the failure of Protestant Ireland to gain self-rule, Ireland as Britain’s basket case after the Napoleonic wars, a double dose of what A. V. Dicey et al. did for Ireland leading up to WWI, and Ireland’s trials and tribulations on both sides of the border during the 20th century.

    Given the level and interests of the students, and outlook of the teacher, it can be made into one of the widest ranging, curiosity arousing, question-answersing courses on the books.

  • Ulsters my homeland

    There was an interesting program on RTE1 last night (30/09/08) called, “hidden history”. It delved into the aspirations of those in the Republic who didn’t follow De Valera and IRA/Sinn Feins sense of Republicanism. One Irish gentleman stated Sinn Fein behaved like Nazi’s in how they forced their Republican agenda onto the Irish people regarding the British monarchy.

  • Greenflag

    ‘One Irish gentleman stated Sinn Fein behaved like Nazi’s in how they forced their Republican agenda onto the Irish people regarding the British monarchy. ‘

    Did he mention how Britain forced it’s ‘monarchy ‘ on the Irish people during the second conquest 1550 through 1690?

    Apparently they behaved with gentlemanly equanimity and a real sensitivity to native Irish religious and cultural concerns, by only ‘exterminating ‘ one third of the island’s population (670,000 people approx) in an orgy of ethnic cleansing , war induced famines, and forced exile for those who would not submit to the British Crown.

    You need to develop some sense of historical perspective . A bunch of SF thugs knocking the collection boxes of the British legion to the ground on Poppy Day is a far cry from the gas chambers of Belsen .

  • Ulsters my homeland

    who was it that moved Queen Victoria’s statue from Dublin to Australia? Whoever it was would continue to revise Irish history just to suit their own bigoted agenda.

  • Ulsters my homeland

    “[i]Did he mention how Britain forced it’s ‘monarchy ‘ on the Irish people during the second conquest 1550 through 1690?”[/i]

    Look, quite the shit. Go to the fucking Pope and demand your ‘freedom’ Greenflag. While you bitch on about the English and refuse to complaign about the Vatican, you conform to the rules England and Rome made on this island. Wise-up and stop your bigotry.

  • ggn

    UMH,

    A small point, the Republic of Ireland is a functioning democracy.

    If its people wanted the British monarchy then that is what they would get.

    The vast majority of the Irish people and almost everyone in the Republic reject the British Crown.

    Some believe that there is are thousands of loyal royalists in the South, I think that is nonsense and no election has ever revealed anything of the sort.

    As the the vatican thing, I think to engage that point would merely take away from the craziness of it.

  • RepublicanStones

    Crazy indeed ggn, kinda like not knowing Paul Newman had blue eyes.

  • runciter

    While you bitch on about the English and refuse to complaign about the Vatican

    We are governed from Westminster, not the Vatican.

  • Greenflag

    ‘While you bitch on about the English’

    I did’nt even mention the word English . I used the term Britain and British monarchy and I was referring to actual historical facts which any recognised history book will make clear to you .

    The ‘English’ never made war on Ireland – Their Kings and Queens did . That was the way it was.

    Why should I complain to the Vatican ? They get nothing from me and I receive the same in return from them . The Papacy is just as much an anachronism to me as is the British monarchy . They are both ancient non democratic institutions which give comfort to many people on these islands . Alas they do nothing for me .

    Greenflag serves neither King nor Kaiser nor Pope. I’m kinda selfish on that score . I elect my political representatives based on their policies and not on whether they wear a clerical collar or what religion they profess .

    Now go and untie your knickers from the knot you’ve gotten into and have a good night 😉