No foreigners need apply

The display of a sign on a house for rent in the Village area of Belfast stating “not available to any foreigners” has been condemned by South Belfast MLA, Anna Lo. The issue features prominently on today’s Talkback programme. The area has witnessed many racist attacks in the past and loyalists in the nearby Donegall Pass area were widely accused of attempting to intimidate members of the Chinese community following a proposed parade in the area last Autumn. The owner of the property told the Talkback programme that a prior tenant, who was ‘a foreigner,’ had been intimidated out of the property.

  • Prionsa Eoghan

    Democratic

    Frig it I am going to have to go slow with you here, please for the sake of my patience read things properly. Firstly;

    >>you are telling me that Unionism is a fascist motivation< >You quote me Ulster Vanguard as evidence of Fascism and even go as far as to invoke Godwin and stick Hitler in for dramatic effect – I mean come on.< >You seem to equate fascism with the desire for self-determination< >As for the Loyalists (paramilitaries)- yeah they have their links with the far right in Britain – but I’m sure you didn’t mean to lump us all in with them now did you….<

  • Democratic

    “No democratic if the racism in both communities was equivalent then I would expect there would be proportional attacks on the “outsiders”
    Yes – very true Steve – so where ARE we going with all this then – towards one-nil to the Nationalist good guys perhaps?….
    The Landlord comment I can agree with you on completely – self preservation along with care for possible future residents – wrong way to go abour good intentions though…

  • Driftwood

    I seem to remember a lot of nationalist estates were not very friendly to “foreigners” in British Army uniforms. Pure race hate dressed up with a facile political veneer.

  • Democratic

    So Prionsa – please make it clear for a jumbled mind then – slow as you can. Am I right that you believe that Ulster Unionism(as lately just of course) is a Fascist phenomenon beloved by Far right groups in Britain with which Unionism/Loyalism (since you obviously insist are completely indivisable – that was what the “Boab” nonsense was about I take it?)are inextricably linked to anyway?….even though their is no “paper trail” (meaning evidence!) to support any of this?…

  • Prionsa Eoghan

    Democratic

    I’m sure if I could be bothered I could work out were you are going now. I may have mentioned that I am recovering from my holiday exploits and have enough problems reasoning out my own thoughts without disentangling yours.

    Best of luck with the circles you are creating for yourself.

  • Democratic

    “I’m sure if I could be bothered I could work out were you are going now. I may have mentioned that I am recovering from my holiday exploits and have enough problems reasoning out my own thoughts without disentangling yours”

    Yeah sure – bye then…..

  • Congal Claen

    I came across this story on the propertypin and my immediate reaction was to fire up slugger to see if Chris Donnely had blogged it. No disappointment there!

    Firstly, sympathies to the Romanian guy who was forced out and to the landlord who had his house wrecked.

    What to f*ck were they thinking doing this? Not only is it shameful and blackens my identity, but it gives Donnelly something to whinge on about.

    However the gal (pun intended) of some nationalist posters on this issue is laughable. To suggest that one community is more racist/sectarian than another is racist in itself. If nationalism is so welcoming as some nationalists appear to think, how come…

    1.)In the republic the 2 largest parties are called “the warriors of destiny” and “the party of the Gael”. Do we even need to proceed? Could you seriously imagine such names in other countries?
    2.)Your national anthem uses the racist “son of the gael” and “saxon foe”.
    3.)There was support for Nazi Germany thro’ Sean Russell and de Valera’s sympathetic words on the loss of the Fuhrer. An embarrassment if ever there was one!
    4.)The Blueshirts existed
    5.)The Spanish civil war – you chose the Fascist side. The Ra threw out members who fought against the fascists. The catholic church excommunicated them.
    6.)“Ourselves Alone” is pretty clear in it’s welcoming message to foreigners.
    7.)Over half the catholics in NI vote for SF. By far the most hate filled party in these islands. Even after Enniskillen a third still voted for them.

    But sure Mary McAleese and Father Reid reckons we’re Nazis so it must be true!

  • Steve

    CG

    Thats quite a logical leap you have there.

    You use evidence atleast 50 years old, the names of political parties and your personal interpretation of a current political party to claim that the nationalists are as racist as the unionists.

    We only use the evidence of the current news, hmm Communities can and have changed, I mean even the unionists have made it all the way to the 19th century

  • Congal Claen

    Hi Steve,

    Points 1, 2, 6 and 7 are current and valid.
    On point 3, Mary Lou rededicated the statue to Russell only recently. Maybe you missed that news?

    19th century you say?

  • Congal Glen

    15,000 repressed abusers walked through Derry on Saturday. What’s all that if the unionists are not abusers? Why come where you’re not welcome if not to attempt to emasculate the locals.

    The fact is that the unionists are serial abusers and can’t extricate themselves from their abusive past.

  • rabelais

    CC,
    You say that, ‘To suggest that one community is more racist/sectarian than another is racist in itself.’ This is relativist nonsense. Are you suggest we should refrain from criticising particular groups because to point out some of their less poltically attractive aspects would offend them? And what about people who are themsleves northern Protestants? Should they refrain from criticising ‘their own’?

    Also your list that illustates some of the less progressive aspects of Irish nationalism and the Republic of Ireland is interesting and relevant. And I wouldn’t suggest for a moment that many of these historical and contemporary facts should be ignored to spare the feelings of people in Ireland. But do bear in mind that you could make a similarly list for just about every country/nation. Nationalisms usually have their progressive and reactionary elements, but you hope that the progressive elements become hegemonic in any national formation.

    However the question here is one for loyalism (forget the whataboutery): what is it about northern protestants that predisposess some them to behave in a xenophobic and insular manner? I ask this not to score points or to belittle northern Protestants but from the firm conviction that northern Protestants would benefit from a little more self-reflexion and critical discussion about their politics and history. At the moment they are defensive, as well as nationally and internationally isolated. In which case the really reprehensible (and racist?) thing to do is to avoid thinking critically about the northern Protestants ‘community’ (it is wide and heterogeneous) and just leave it to its maladies.

  • Steve

    1,2,6 current? Yes.
    Silly? Very
    Evidence? Not even anecdotal

    7 ? Thats your interpretation, I am sure the nationalists would describe the DUP/UUP/TUV in these very same terms. Sometimes these groups are so hate filled even David Ervine could be interpreted as reasonable

    Mary McA Did not compare your community to nazi’s, she compared the way you raise your children with an irrational hatred of “themuns” to the nazi’s, reasonable interpretation if rather clumsey

    Point 3 not every one is perfect as you we have all made our mistakes, its too bad we can’t redo periods of our lives so every one was perfect. Perhaps Mary believes the greater good he accomplished was worth ignoring a few warts

  • pfhl

    dave,

    Driftwood, according to the judgement of the Irish Labour Court when asked by IMPACT to qualify if the term “foreign bases” as used by Aer Lingus included Belfast, anyone from Northern Ireland is legally a foreigner in the Republic of Ireland, so you can take it that it means someone who isn’t native to a particular sovereign justification. It isn’t a racist term even if it suits a political agenda to obfuscate two separate meanings with each other in order to stick it to the prods.
    Posted by Dave on Aug 12, 2008 @ 09:31 PM

    It is not a racist term but it is racist to exclude somebody from renting the house because they are foreigners. I would be suprised if anybody thought the term foreigner was racist.

  • pfhl

    “I would be a bit wary of students given that a small number of them give the impression of being uncivilized.”

    As somebody that has been a student living in the middle of the Holylands, I could not agree more.

  • Greenflag

    CC ,

    1.)Could you seriously imagine such names in other countries?

    Perhaps other countries did’nt have a civil war or are lacking in imagination or don’t use the Irish language as part of their political culture ?

    2.)The British national anthem had/has a verse which referred to the crushing of rebellious Scots ?

    3.)There was support for Nazi Germany among the British aristocracy including the Astors and others close to the House of Windsor .Not an embarassment ? Much of the British Tory establishment wanted to do a deal with Hitler . Fortunately Winnie the ‘maverick’ Churchill won out in cabinet .

    4.)The Blackshirts also existed . I believe a son of the former British Union of Fascists a Mr Moseley has recently been in the news -something to do with ‘orgies ‘ and lots of money . I’m sure his father would have been proud of him 🙂

    5.) De Valera had members of the IRA hanged IIRC .

    6.)“Ourselves Alone” is pretty clear in it’s welcoming message to foreigners.

    It must be for there are at least 400,000 ‘foreigners’ now permanently resident in the Republic many of whom are British .

  • pfhl

    To Paul McMahon,

    Can you (and others) please post a health warning in future if you are going to post links such as the one you posted above (the content of the linked web page was pretty unsavoury, to say the least). Some of us are at work!

    AAA
    Posted by An Amateur Anthropologist on Aug 13, 2008 @ 10:23 AM

    I thought NWS would not be needed on here but that link was for a bunch of tools. I had a read through a few of them posts. What a bunch of arseholes.

  • tenant

    >The Village, you mean? I don’t see
    >that owning a house in the Village
    >makes one obliged to act as a
    >welcoming committee to Ireland

    You wouldn’t recognize a joke if it whizzed right over your head, would you?

  • The Raven

    Just back from a few days away, and alas too late to be the first to say: it’s his/her own property…while the wording and public nature of the placed by this homeowner are pretty despicable, he/she can pretty much rent it to whomever he pleases.

  • PaddyReilly

    You wouldn’t recognize a joke if it whizzed right over your head, would you?

    It’s the way you tell them. Always remember to include a punchline. Boom boom!

  • William

    I think that a private house-owner can say whatever they want! Bob Cooper and his unelected quango do not own this house, it is not their investment. So he , along with the precious Ms Lo, should take a hike and stop being so interfering. I do not agree with the tone of the ad but I sure as heck agree that people have the right to say what they want regarding terms and conditions when it comes to their property.

  • congal claen

    Hi J O’C,

    15,000 serial abusers? What are you on?

    Hi Rebelais,

    I do believe that racist incidents should be condemned. I believe I did that in my post. I also believe I was fekked off about it too. However, incidents carried out by a few f*ckwits shouldn’t be used to tar an entire community. Otherwise you get comments like that from J O’C above. You’ll note the list I gave were not criticisms of nationalist f*ckwits but people of power within nationalism or worse collective actions. “Warriors of destiny” is my particular favourite. Surely, that should be changed? Are you not embarassed by it?

    On the isolation argument I believe that that is a result of unionists assimilating into whatever country they have emigrated to. Nationalists don’t seem to do that. So, for example in America, you have a big Irish American voice and St Paddy parades. Yet even tho the Scotch Irish were significant in forming the country you hear relatively little about them and Orange parades are a thing of the past due to the riots that accompanied them with the newly arrived catholic Irish.

  • Congal claen

    Why don’t you advocate taking your people out of the Old Testament and into the New Testament by abandoning the marching season? Why hang on to it when it is only causing your neighbour nuisance?

    Isn’t that just abuse of the people who you must live beside, and who would object only the police would beat them off the streets because of the appalling vista of actually confronting the serial abusers of the loyal orders?

  • Steve

    cc
    fecking fenians stealing all your glory and being proud of their heritage, the nerve of some peoples children

  • congal claen

    Hi Steve,

    “1,2,6 current? Yes.
    Silly? Very
    Evidence? Not even anecdotal”

    So you think “warriors of destiny” is a sensible name for a modern political party? Are you a fantasy game nut who dresses like a wizard at the weekend with other likeminded lunatics?

    “7 ? Thats your interpretation, I am sure the nationalists would describe the DUP/UUP/TUV in these very same terms. Sometimes these groups are so hate filled even David Ervine could be interpreted as reasonable”

    That being the case – where are the reciprocal actions from those parties to such outrages as La Mon or Enniskillen to take just 2? Remember, as the 10th anniversary of Omagh is upon us the shinners condemn those responsible for Omagh. Yet they don’t condemn those responsible for Enniskillen. Despite the fact that Enniskillen was a deliberate act that proceeded as planned whereas Omagh was a fek up for the RIRA.

    “Mary McA Did not compare your community to nazi’s, she compared the way you raise your children with an irrational hatred of “themuns” to the nazi’s, reasonable interpretation if rather clumsey”

    Ah, so we’re not actually Nazis. We just get on like them. And there was me getting all offended!

    “Point 3 not every one is perfect as you we have all made our mistakes, its too bad we can’t redo periods of our lives so every one was perfect. Perhaps Mary believes the greater good he accomplished was worth ignoring a few warts”

    Much like Hitler then? Did great things for jobs, industry, the enviroment, etc, etc. He just had these wee warts of annexing countries and exterminating various communities he didn’t like! Still Sean could overlook that as long as the unionists were f*cked over. Yeah, you should probably put up more statues to the nazi luving terrorist f*cker.

  • congal claen

    Hi J O’C,

    “Why don’t you advocate taking your people out of the Old Testament and into the New Testament by abandoning the marching season? Why hang on to it when it is only causing your neighbour nuisance?”

    Are St Paddy’s day parades a nuisance then? Or is it only Prod ones?

  • longshot

    ‘I do not agree with the tone of the ad but I sure as heck agree that people have the right to say what they want regarding terms and conditions when it comes to their property.’

    Err.. no they don’t actually. That’s why there’s a myriad of legisltation to protect tenants from wanabee Rachman landlords like that racist idiot in the Village.

  • circles

    ‘Still Sean could overlook that as long as the unionists were f*cked over’
    ‘Are St Paddy’s day parades a nuisance then? Or is it only Prod ones? ‘

    For Feck’s sake! If MOPEry was an olympic sport, Congal would win the Gold Medal hands down!

  • PaddyReilly

    If MOPEry was an olympic sport, Congal would win the Gold Medal hands down!

    Surely it’s the whataboutery heats he should have been put down for. Can someone explain exactly what constitutes mopery. I know it’s not whataboutery.

  • Dave

    [i]”Driftwood, according to the judgement of the Irish Labour Court when asked by IMPACT to qualify if the term “foreign bases” as used by Aer Lingus included Belfast, anyone from Northern Ireland is legally a foreigner in the Republic of Ireland, so you can take it that it means someone who isn’t native to a particular sovereign justification. It isn’t a racist term even if it suits a political agenda to obfuscate two separate meanings with each other in order to stick it to the prods.” – Dave

    “It is not a racist term but it is racist to exclude somebody from renting the house because they are foreigners.” – pfhl[/i]

    That statement is self-contradicting. Foreign means what it says on the tin: not from this justification. As I pointed out, northerners belong to the same race as southerners, but they are still legally designated as foreigners, so it is nonsense to obfuscate two terms that have very different meanings. According to your flawed logic, the Irish Labour Court is racist to call people from Belfast “foreigners” and to use that designation to assert that “foreigners” should not have the same rates of pay as non-foreigners. No, it’s not racist: it’s the basis of sovereign justifications that non-citizens are designated as foreigners. Otherwise, in your Utopia, you’d be paying rates of 99p in the pound in order to benefits the citizens of Mongolia; and where you to point out that your taxes are not paid within your sovereign justification for the benefit of foreigners, you’d be shouted down as being a racist and told to pay up. After a few months of that United Colours of Beneton Utopia, you’d quickly realise why we have sovereign justifications and designate those who are not native to them as foreigners. And besides, if there shouldn’t be a designation of foreigner, then let it be democratically reflected in relation to any future border poll: let the Scots, pro-union English, and other ardent unionists from around the world vote. If that happened, you’d be the first to complain about foreigners.

  • Steve

    CC
    So you think “warriors of destiny” is a sensible name for a modern political party? Are you a fantasy game nut who dresses like a wizard at the weekend with other likeminded lunatics?

    What name would you sugest “the pink fuzzy bunnies of possibility”

    SF were no more responsible for Lamon and Eniskillen then the UUP were responsible for Dublin and Monaghan bombings. They are both political parties not terrorist organizations

    Ah, so we’re not actually Nazis. We just get on like them. And there was me getting all offended!

    No you are not actually nazi’s you just raise your children with an irrational fear and hatred of people different than yourselves, Much like nazi germany and the Jews/ Gypsies/Gays/Blacks/Catholics/Slavs/Russians/Poles wholy schmidt that sounds like a shopping list for the DUP

    Much like Hitler then? Did great things for jobs, industry, the enviroment, etc, etc. He just had these wee warts of annexing countries and exterminating various communities he didn’t like!

    I missed this period of Irish history which countries exactly did Sean Russel Annex? Must have done it awfully quietly as I dont remember anyone ever being an Irish colony. How did his exterminating various communities go unreported?

    I know the Armenian extermination has been largely ignored in the 20th Century but its funny no unionist has ever mention the extermination camps in Cork

  • Mike

    Prionsa Eoghan

    I am a unionist. Can you explain to me please how and why would would link me with fascism?

  • Dave

    Paddy, [b]M[/b]ost [b]O[/b]pressed [b]P[/b]eople [b]E[/b]ver -ry. An overbearing sense of victimhood and self-pity.

  • congal claen

    Hi Circles/Paddy,

    The charge being made by a lot of nationalists on this site is that unionists as a whole are racist based on the actions of a few f*ckwits from within the unionist community. I haven’t tarred your community with the actions of the few f*ckwits within it. I deliberately chose leaders or collective decisions within your community. Some of which are indefensible. Or at least I would have thought so. That most have chosen to defend them is even worse.

    For the record I don’t think either community is any worse than the other on this issue.

  • The Raven

    “Err.. no they don’t actually. That’s why there’s a myriad of legisltation to protect tenants from wanabee Rachman landlords like that racist idiot in the Village.”

    I wonder – and I ask, because unlike many here, I will stand to be corrected if I am wrong – could you point me in the direction of the legislation that determines just who you CAN rent your property to? I know about that which dictates what state your property should be in, how it should be kept, etc, if you are a landlord.

    But if you could refer me to the bit that says who you can and can’t let it to, I’d appreciate it. Sorry in advance if what I wrote was incorrect.

  • Congal Claen

    .Are St Paddy’s day parades a nuisance then? Or is it only Prod ones?

    I don’t want to see Sinn Fein run St Paddy’s Day parades, but for the most part even they are cultural and non-sectarian.

    But Loyal Order parades are in a league of their own for their sheer promotion of hollow evil and emptiness in the name of culture and religion.

    It’s got to stop but the question is, can the Unionists stop it? Is it out of control? Has hate already defeated unionism?

  • congal claen

    Hi Steve,

    “SF were no more responsible for Lamon and Eniskillen then the UUP were responsible for Dublin and Monaghan bombings. They are both political parties not terrorist organizations”.

    If you believe that SF are just a political party you should seek medical help. Even SF supporters don’t believe that. They may say it – but they don’t believe it.

    “I missed this period of Irish history which countries exactly did Sean Russel Annex? Must have done it awfully quietly as I dont remember anyone ever being an Irish colony. How did his exterminating various communities go unreported?”

    What Russell was signing upto would have led to the rounding up of Irish Jews within Ireland for deportation to the concentration camps. And Mary Lou thinks he’s a hero.

  • It was Sammy McNally what done it

    Mike,

    re.”I am a unionist. Can you explain to me please how and why would would link me with fascism?”

    Do you like marching up and down in areas you are not welcome, do you like to wear a funny costume and are you in the habit of telling people of a particular creed how much you dislike them?

    If the answer to all of the above is YES then that might be a clue in understanding such a link. If the answer is NO to any of them then you may be in clear.

    p.s. Ideological check-ups are free but all decisions are final.

  • congal claen

    Hi John,

    “I don’t want to see Sinn Fein run St Paddy’s Day parades, but for the most part even they are cultural and non-sectarian.”

    That’ll be why terrorists headed the NY St Paddy’s parades for years. The same intolerance also excluded homosexuals from the parade up until relatively recently. But, it’s only the OO who promote “Evil”?

    I’m getting it now…

    unionist = evil/racist
    nationalist = all that’s good in this world.

    Sorry, I must’ve just lost the run of myself with my earlier posts.

  • Steve

    CC
    What Russell was signing upto would have led to the rounding up of Irish Jews within Ireland for deportation to the concentration camps. And Mary Lou thinks he’s a hero

    So Sean Russel is convicted on what might have been?

    What does that do to Paisley’s standing? Or any member of the OO? What about all those good and righteous farmers who signed up for third force?

    Hell if possible outcomes are convictable I myself should be deep in a dark prison as I have occasionally had an evil thought or two.

  • Driftwood

    For the record I don’t think either community is any worse than the other on this issue.

    Spot on Congal. We are all humans (and apes).
    The we are better than them aspect of this thread is disturbing. The idea that “unionists” or “republicans” have a genetic or environmental predisposition to racism is absurd.
    And Raven is correct in his view of the law.
    I would be particularly wary of students for pragmatic reasons. I suppose I would have an even more prejudiced view of UU students, but that’s based on anecdote.

  • congal claen

    Hi Steve,

    No. Sean Russell is a Nazi luving terrorist f*cker. Whether convicted or not.

    This thread is about Racism. You’re defending someone committed to the greatest racists the world has ever known. The sensible thing would have been to disown him as an aberration. However, you keep going. The more you protest the deeper you bury your ridiculous arguments.

  • congal claen

    Hi Driftwood,

    Floreat Dunum!

  • Congal

    “unionist = evil/racist
    nationalist = all that’s good in this world.”

    No, that is not my opinion. In terms of our identities, we are but a blip of evolution apart. Four hundred years is nothing in real terms even if we were growing apart.

    The point I’m making is that 400 hundred years ago the unionist community took an Old Testament path (rejecting Christ very clearly as a community/group of individuals) and that has led to the outwardly-biased, hollow, and empty tradition of marching in order to calmn the fears within of weakness and compromise. Until unionists themselves challenge that tradition, they will accentuate the fears of weakness and compromise, and when the storm eventually arrives, they will be so weak, they will be washed away.

  • Steve

    CC

    No you are the one with ridiculous arguement, You wish to condemn a man for a crime he did not commit

  • congal claen

    Hi John,

    Are you serious with that last comment?

  • congal claen

    Steve,

    He was in cahoots with the Nazis. Nobody doubts it. I suppose Hitler wasn’t really racist either as he was never convicted. As I say keep going…

    Although calm it down. If you keep being this outlandish people will think I’ve made you up to further my own arguments…

  • Congal

    Yes

    I know Sinn Fein rejected Christ a generation ago. I have covered that in books I’ve written about the situation where Gerry Adams’ name comes out at 666 (as does Ian paisley’s).

    But generally unionists have little knowledge of Christ in political terms. Yes they know the quotes but memory is no substitute for doing. Sinn Fein have in reality appointed Gerry Adams as the moral arbiter over ruling Christ, but the unionists have by and large a blind spot for Christ.

    That is very relevant to this thread and to all previous discussion.

  • Driftwood

    Congael
    You ex DHS?

  • Driftwood

    John O Connell
    What beverages do you partake of an evening?
    May i suggest downgrading to Tennents or Carlsberg?

  • Steve

    He was in cahoots with the Nazis.

    So was King George or whatever his name was you know the fool who gave up the throne

  • Dave

    *justification = jurisdiction (interesting typo)

    The fervent support of King Edward VIII for Hitler and the Nazis that saw him visiting Adolf Hitler in Germany as late as 1937 and giving full Nazi salutes to his hosts was far more ingrained and ideological than Russell’s pragmatic support for England’s enemy in 1939, yet where are your shill cries of denunciation for the House of Windsor’s refusal to remove all images of him from their palaces or to allow his body to lie in state at St George’s Chapel at Windsor Castle in 1972? Total silence.

  • congal claen

    Hi Driftwood,

    Absolutely.

    Hi Dave,

    Pre war the full horror of the final solution had not been unleashed. Sean Russell was in cahoots with the Nazis as this policy was brought into full swing.

  • Dave

    Endlösung der Judenfrage didn’t enter the equation until 1941 when Hitler gave the order for extermination as “the final solution to the Jewish question”. Russell was dead before that order was given. Prior to that the policy was deportation. Germany, however, had enacted legislation to bar Jews from mainstream society long before King Edward visited Hitler in Germany in 1937 and greeted him with a Nazi salute. Indeed, Jews were in German concentration camps in the early 30s. Dachau, for example, opened in 1933 and a about 40% of its detainees were Jews. As the King of England, Edward Windsor would have been briefed and all of this, but nevertheless proffered his fulsome support for the Nazis who implemented that system.

    Your lack of condemnation is noted along with your hypocrisy, and you are duly dismissed.

  • PaddyReilly

    Congal

    I will do you the favour of trying to explain to you something about history.

    During the 20s, 30s and 40s the political situation in the world was increasingly such that there were only two sides that you could be on, Fascist or Communist.

    If the boatrace is between Oxford and Cambridge, there’s no point in placing a bet on Sunderland.

    As a result, many decent people who did not think along these lines, ended up being tarred as one or the other or even co-operating with one or the other side.

    Much of Catholic Ireland leaned to the Fascist side after the Spanish Civil War. The Communists had supported the Republicans, and the Republicans had massacred whole seminaries of priests and convents of nuns. For practising Catholics this made Fascism the lesser of two evils.

    If you held that Catholic priests should be allowed to live, you had to be a Fascist: later on, if you thought that Jews should be allowed to live, you had to be a Communist.

    There was a Fascist type organisation in Ireland called the Blueshirts, which opposed the IRA and favoured the British Empire. Now this may sound like the Irish got everything wrong, but at the time they were around (well before World War 2), it probably made sense. In an ideological struggle, the British Empire would have to be on the side of the Fascists: Empire = Reich. Coloured chappies = Untermenschen. The Prince of Wales (Edward VIII) tended to think like this. Franco flew to Spain in a British aeroplane.

    But, for strategic reasons, Britain could not tolerate Germany dominating Western Europe, so Churchill chose to fight Germany, making him an anti-Fascist.

    He was quite barmy: Britain totally lacked the resources to overcome Germany at this juncture (1939-42), and any state that could do, backed away from his mania, hoping not to be sucked under with him. Ireland chose this path. When Hitler attacked Russia, Britain was on firmer ground. But this involved co-operating with a regime that was transcendently evil, and allowing many shameful acts such as the massacre of the White Russians. However, as victors, or rather as bit players on the victorious side, the British were able to portray themselves as wholly good opposing the wholly bad.

    Some of the paraphernalia of Fianna Fáil organisation seems to have been influenced by the Fascists: the title ‘Taoiseach’ was probably intended to be the equivalent of Duce, Caudillo and Fuehrer, but it is a queer type of fascist that goes on holding elections. This sort of nonsense was what was going round at the time, and obviously it was the opposing side that picked up on the shirt thing.

    Ireland chose neutrality and its electorate could not be swayed from it. A minority wanted intervention of the British side, and an even smaller minority on the German. This was a period in Irish History when the active IRA was down to three men and a dog: a sort of Continuity organisation. Seán Russell was one man: he died in 1940, and the Irish Nazi movement died with him. That was 68 years ago: forget this nonsense.

  • Dave

    Paddy, how exactly could Ireland in the late 30s and early 40s have engaged in war when it scarcely had enough financial means to put a brass plate on the Taoiseach’s door never mind equip an army? War wasn’t an option.

  • PaddyReilly

    Dave

    My sentiments entirely.

  • westy

    bjr,
    depite the comprehensive post nothing you have said points to concrete,official links between loyalists and the british far-right…

    ”Sandy Row is Sandy Row” banners? Remember the track-bottomed women complaining about “outsiders”? Remember?”

    i seem to remember that was about a nationalist waving a tricolour at locals,hardy a ‘foreigner’ issue.

    ”Or how about Samuel “Skelly” McCrory and Johnny Adair et al at the NF rally sniffing glue outside the City Hall in the 80s?”

    when they were pre-uda skinhead teenagers,hardly an ‘official’ link.plenty of falls road skinheads were just as dumb and racist in those days.

    ”Or the links at football fan level between Rangers, Chelsea and Linfield? “The Blues Brothers”? Is that official enough?”

    so if a football fan supports these 3 teams he is a nazi??no,he isnt.

    ”Perhaps Peter Robinson pictured with an Uzi at an electrified fence built by the government when on a fact-finding mission to Israel sent his community a clear message about how to treat foreigners. Was that official enough.”

    peter robinson goes to israel,what a nazi…

    ”How else to explain the large numbers of the Labour left, T.O.M members, Basques, Palestinians and lefties at Feile, the anti-internment rallies?”

    i dont think the support of discredited fellow-traveller lefties proves anything.ask a gulag survivor about leftie support for the underdog.

    now,how about some official links if youve got them,not subjective remarks.

  • rabelais

    CC,
    You said, ‘“Warriors of destiny” is my particular favourite. Surely, that should be changed? Are you not embarassed by it?’

    Why would I be embarrassed about it? It has nothing to do with me. I am neither a member of that party or a supporter. I’m not even an Irish nationalist. I’m a northern Prod (non-practicing) but I grew tired years ago of the largely sectarian and parochial politics of Ulster unionism.

    I’ve been reading through the thread and you’ve been taking some flak from all angles and all-comers but in a way I’m a bit of good news for you. I prove that northern Prods are not genetically predisposed to fascism.

    But it is interesting that just because I’m critical of unionism/loyalism, you presumed that I considered myself an Irish nationalist. And this is important because what is it about northern Protestant politics that it can’t take critical analysis or constructive criticism without making the assumption that all such thinking necessarily comes from ‘outsiders’.

  • Suilven

    Dave

    ‘The fervent support of King Edward VIII for Hitler and the Nazis that saw him visiting Adolf Hitler in Germany as late as 1937 and giving full Nazi salutes to his hosts’

    Naughty, naughty twisting of the facts here, which are…

    1) By 1937, Eddie VIII was already an (embittered) ex-King.

    2) His visit to Nazi Germany was carried out against official British Government advice.

    3) On the outbreak of war, Edward & Mrs Simpson were basically exiled to Bermuda for their lack of ideological soundness.

    So, one bad apple, etc. But for Dave and Paddy, who seem to have allowed their bigotry free rein in alleging the UK was fascist (despite it being the only European nation to stand and prevent Nazi domination of the entire continent of Europe), riddle me this – which was the only ‘neutral’ state to send its condolences to the Nazis on Hitler’s death?

  • Congal Claen

    Hi Dave/Paddy,

    I don’t really want to get into an argument about who’s Nazi was the worst. So, just in case I gave that impression let me assure you that I consider Edward an embarrassment. Or just to even it up, a Nazi f*cker. I can either take or leave the Royal family. It doesn’t have much to do with my sense of unionism. There were other people closer to home who you could have targeted who would have much greater ties with unionism.

    The thrust of my argument is that unionism and nationalism are roughly the same with respect to racism. I’m not trying to argue that there is something within nationalism that predisposes nationalists to racism. However, there appears to be many nationalists on this site who appear to think that unionists are more racist than nationalists.

    Do you consider one side more racist than the other?

    Hi rabelais,

    The reason I assumed you were nationalist was your monicker. I read it as rebelais. So, sorry that I made presumptions on your views based on that mistake.

    If you knew me or more importantly if you knew some of my prod mates you would know that I don’t make the assumptions you mentioned. Many of them are at least nationalist. Verging on republican. Some are even card carrying. In fact, I wouldn’t be surprised if you were one of them.

  • Suilven

    PS Paddy,

    Point of historical order re “Churchill chose to fight Germany”; Churchill was not even a British Cabinet member at the outbreak of WWII, and it fell to the former appeaser Chamberlain to declare war.

  • Driftwood

    This might muddy the waters, but would it be an assumption too far to state that racism is likely to be more predicated on lack of educational achievement, rather than constitutional viewpoints.

  • It was Sammy McNally what done it

    Congal Claen,

    I think it is fair to accuse Unionists of being more racist because of their ideological link with the Orange Order which to most people is a deeply sectarian organisation that is characterised by intolerance towards Catholics.

    Secular Unioinsts must be deeply embarassed by the OO and their marches as they are almost universally viewed as an exercise in bigotry by British people on the mainland where the comparison with the National Front marching in ethnic areas is often drwan.

    As there is surely a very thin line between sectarianism and racism it therfore a fair working assumption (in the absence of very difficult to measure fact) that Unionists are indeed more racist than Nationalists.

  • PaddyReilly

    Suilven

    But for Dave and Paddy, who seem to have allowed their bigotry free rein in alleging the UK was fascist

    I will repeat for you what I actually wrote:

    During the 20s, 30s and 40s the political situation in the world was increasingly such that there were only two sides that you could be on, Fascist or Communist. If the boatrace is between Oxford and Cambridge, there’s no point in placing a bet on Sunderland. As a result, many decent people who did not think along these lines, ended up being tarred as one or the other or even co-operating with one or the other side.

    In the meantime, I suggest you consult an optometrist.

    As I pointed out, the tendency to condone Fascism as an antedote to the other side was present in Ireland as well as Britain. Edward Windsor, acting in the immediate aftermath of the Republican massacres in Spain, was probably justified in considering Hitler the lesser of two evils- at that particular point in time. Dachau had opened and had Jews in it, yes: but Dachau at that time was no worse than any of the British (or Irish) detention centres for illegal immigrants. Jews were trying to immigrate into Germany up till 1939. The Endloesung started in 1942, as already pointed out.

    In rural Spain, the Republicans massacred anyone over the rank of Agricultural Labourer. See “For Whom the Bell Tolls” by Hemingway and the Biography of El Cordobes. Ditto USSR, Cambodia. As I am not an agricultural labourer, in such a situation I would have to become a Fascist. Fortunately today we do not have to make that choice.

  • Congal Claen

    Hi Sammy,

    Those in the OO probably consider it pro Prod. However, I have to say I chose not to join when asked as I thought of it as being anti catholic. Then again, I think of SF as being way more sectarian (which isn’t necessarily based on religion) than the OO and there are quite a few SF supporters in the nationalist community who show little in the way of embarrassment at being so.

  • marty

    As there is surely a very thin line between sectarianism and racism it therfore a fair working assumption (in the absence of very difficult to measure fact) that Unionists are indeed more racist than Nationalists.

    So you’ve no facts with which to back your assumption up? It’s not much of an assumption in that case.

  • It was Sammy McNally what done it

    Congal Clean,

    that is a disarmingly honest reply – but I would contend that although SF is clearly a more politcally extreme than the OO it is not more sectarian.

    There is a tendency in Non Iron that when one side points out a problem with the other that instead of discussing the problem in their community they simply say (often unjustifiably) that the accusing side is just as bad.

    This happens in my opinion, for example on any discussion on sectarianism/racism as in above and in relation to political violence where Nationalists claim incorrectly that Unioinst politicans are just as closely linked to paramilitaries as Nationalists are.

  • Congal Claen

    Hi Sammy,

    Depends on what you mean as sectarian. I go with the sect part. ie not necessarily religion based.

    So, for example, whilst the OO is no doubt more anti Catholic than the UVF. I consider the UVF to be more sectarian than the OO because of their extreme actions. Remembering the fact that the UVF did have some catholic members. Not many, but they did have some.

    That is why I consider SF to be more sectarian than the OO. Although not as anti prod as the OO are anti catholic.

    I’m maybe not explaining that too well. However, do you see what I mean?

  • Suilven

    My eyesight’s fine, Paddy. Better than yours, it would appear, as you have conveniently missed the bit where you stated:

    “In an ideological struggle, the British Empire would have to be on the side of the Fascists: Empire = Reich. Coloured chappies = Untermenschen. The Prince of Wales (Edward VIII) tended to think like this. Franco flew to Spain in a British aeroplane.”

    What rot. Britain was a functioning democracy in 1939, and remained so throughout the war.

    Mosley’s Blackshirts were rejected and physically opposed at every turn.

    I’ve summarised above the excommunication of Edward Windsor by the British state.

    I note you haven’t answered my question yet, so I’ll repeat it – which was the only ‘neutral’ state to send its condolences to the Nazis on Hitler’s death? Name and shame, Paddy, name and shame.

    PS Franco’s flight was chartered by Douglas Jerrold, editor of the Catholic English Review and a member of the Friends of National Spain, composed of English Catholics and Spanish anglophones. It would be more correct to characterise it as a “Catholic plane”, no?

    PPS Heard of the 700 Irish fascist volunteers of Franco’s 15th Bandera, led by one Eoin O’Duffy? Slightly more damning than a plane flight.

  • It was Sammy McNally what done it

    Congal Claen,

    I’m with you – though not in agreement, do you consider all political group fighting for independence to be sectarian?

    As a matter of interest has any Unionist politician ever criticised the Orange Order for it’s marching policy? With the UUs new link with the Neo Cons I think Wee Reggie will have difficulty unless he distances himself a bit – but Posh boy Davy Cameron could suprise us all and turn up on the 12th.

  • DK

    Eoin O’Duffy – the man who might have been Fuhrer of Ireland – except that Dev stood up to him & he ended up in Spain with a “mighty” force that the regulars of Franco’s army rightly regarded with derision. He’s the reason why some people in the Republic still call Fine Gael fascists/nazis. What a lot of Nazis there are!

    Out of historical interest, Ireland could have joined the war on Britain’s side (and Dev did help out in discreet ways, like allowing anti-sub flights from Fermanagh to take a short cut over Donegal) – might have been politically difficult, but would have probably led to the reunification of Ireland. As it was, more people from the Republic ended up fighting in the British armed forces than people from Northern Ireland. Big missed opportunity from Dev, who was probably blinded by his hatred of Britain.

  • PaddyReilly

    Britain was a functioning democracy in 1939, and remained so throughout the war.

    Democracy was practised at home, but not of course with respect to the empire.

    But as I have already pointed out, the nature of the times was that in many areas you had to choose Fascist or Communist. There was no third choice. Exonerate the British Empire of Fascist tendencies and you make it into a Communist fellow traveller. Before 1939 it seemed that Fascism was the lesser of two evils. In British Conservative circles as well as Irish Catholic ones.

    I can’t answer your question as which was the only ‘neutral’ state to send its condolences to the Nazis on Hitler’s death because I don’t have the data. It would surprise me if Switzerland, Argentina and Paraguay didn’t. Similarly I suspect that the UK sent condolences on the death of Stalin, Franco etc. That’s what diplomacy is about. The point you make is merely stale propaganda.

    Heard of the 700 Irish fascist volunteers of Franco’s 15th Bandera, led by one Eoin O’Duffy? Slightly more damning than a plane flight.

    You are incredibly thick. How many times do I have to labour the point: due to the circumstances of the times, people ended up on the Fascist (or Communist) side because they had no choice in the matter. I am not trying to score Irish Republican points against the British Empire. I repeat:-

    In rural Spain, the Republicans massacred anyone over the rank of Agricultural Labourer. See “For Whom the Bell Tolls” by Hemingway and the Biography of El Cordobes. Ditto USSR, Cambodia. As I am not an agricultural labourer, in such a situation I would have to become a Fascist. Fortunately today we do not have to make that choice.

  • Driftwood

    Congal Clean,

    that is a disarmingly honest reply

    Sammy, he must have went to a very good school!

  • Congal Claen

    Hi Sammy,

    “I’m with you – though not in agreement, do you consider all political group fighting for independence to be sectarian?”

    Nope. And neither would I consider all those not fighting to be non sectarian. I suppose it all boils down to whether you hate your opponents. Whether that’s because of race, religion, idealology or whatever.

    “As a matter of interest has any Unionist politician ever criticised the Orange Order for it’s marching policy? With the UUs new link with the Neo Cons I think Wee Reggie will have difficulty unless he distances himself a bit – but Posh boy Davy Cameron could suprise us all and turn up on the 12th.”

    There are many who aren’t in any of the orders. As leader, Trimble was trying to get rid of the OO block vote. And then of course Paisley isn’t in the OO either. Whether that amounts to criticism tho… If you read Ruth Dudley Edward’s book on the orders you get the impression that there were diagreements on the issue of marching even within the orders themselves.

  • Congal Claen

    Ideology that was…

  • Doctor Who

    Dave

    You really should know what you are talking about before posting.

    Edward Windsor´s (after abdication) visit to Hitler was an embarassment to the UK, it was never official and it hurt the Royal Family´s image at home. He was sent packing during the war as to avoid further embarassment.

    One wonders what your point is as Britain while not fully equiped to withstand a war back in 1939, where the only counrty in Europe to stand against the Nazi´s. Today´s Europe would be a very bleak place had the British not stood and fought Nazism.

    Irish Republicanism has unfortunately flirted with the most dodgy ideologies of the last hundred years or so including of course Nazism and more recently Islamic fundamentalists.

  • Suilven

    Paddy,

    Unfortunately for you, it’s your concepts which are incredibly thick. You have extrapolated wildly from the admitted utter polarisation between the extremes of fascism and communism/revolutionary socialism which took hold early in the Spanish Civil War; to suggest though that there was no centre ground Europe-wide is preposterous however. Given that the Axis powers and the USSR were in detente for the early years of WWII (a deal sealed with the carve-up of Poland), your narrative of fascism vs communism being the only show in town is ridiculous. The obliteration of the inconvenient (both for the Nazis, and your argument, it seems) third way of political democracy was the avowed aim of the Axis, prior to dealing with the Reds.

    Oh, and about the 700 Blueshirts: Franco only had just over 1000 volunteers from overseas, so it’s odd that nearly 70% of them were from one small state. But maybe they bought your (or your predecessors) ‘better fascist than red’ thesis. Couldn’t have anything to do with the vociferous support of the Catholic Church for the Spanish Nationalists, or even just that they really, really wanted to be fascists, could it?

  • PaddyReilly

    But maybe they bought your (or your predecessors) ‘better fascist than red’ thesis. Couldn’t have anything to do with the vociferous support of the Catholic Church for the Spanish Nationalists, or even just that they really, really wanted to be fascists, could it?

    The Spanish Republicans murdered priests, nuns, monks. In rural areas, even Chemists and Hairdressers. Could you not accept that the Catholic Church, and its Irish adherents, might have had some justification for siding with the Fascists? The centrists you talk about were not an option in Spain in 1937.

    I do not have any ‘better fascist than red’ thesis. If I was Jewish, and in Nazi occupied Eastern Europe, I would not have that luxury.

    I was not a Spanish priest in a Republican area in the 1930s, or a Jew in a Nazi occupied area in the 1940s, but I can understand why those who were, felt justified in siding with the unfashionable extremes of Fascism or Communism. Often, it was their only hope of survival.

    Franco, of course, went on to be a military ally of the USA and Great Britain in the stand-off with Communism. Polite man: my friend’s dad (Scottish, Presbyterian) worked for him.

  • Dave

    DrWho, the point isn’t that difficult to decipher:

    “Sean Russell is a Nazi luving terrorist f*cker. Whether convicted or not.” – congal claen

    I pointed out that a member of the Royal family gave his full blessing to the Nazis despite having the advantage of intelligence briefings as King of England about Germany’s racist legislation and concentration camps, yet openly endorsed Nazism and his endorsement was deemed to be of such propaganda value that no less senior a Nazi than Adolf himself received Edward Windsor’s Nazi salute, yet the House of Windsor have not disowned him or his actions in any way and, indeed, Queen Elizabeth granted said “Nazi luving terrorist f*cker” the honour of having his body to lie in state at St George’s Chapel at Windsor Castle in 1972.

    So, pointing out the British monarchy’s flirtation with fascism (before it became an embarrassment), I invited congal claen to extend his hatred of Nazi-loving fuckers to the British monarchy and he seems to be rather shy of doing so, indicating that his actual hatred is for Irish nationalists rather than Nazis and those who used their positions to confer respectability upon Nazism and the genocide it unleashed.

    Clear enough for you?

  • Suilven

    Paddy,

    ‘The centrists you talk about were not an option in Spain in 1937.’

    I have agreed with you, on this point alone, above. The pressure on Spaniards unable to flee to pick a side must have been immense. This does not, however, excuse O’Duffy and his fellow adventurers, or their counterparts in the International Brigades, pitching into another nation’s tribulations on a whim.

    Do you accept though that pre-WWII centrist democracies were a numerical majority in Europe over totalitarianism of whatever hue? (though possibly not a majority of population).

  • Congal Claen

    Hi dave,

    I think you’ll find I called him an embarrassment and Nazi-luving f*cker.

  • PaddyReilly

    This does not, however, excuse O’Duffy and his fellow adventurers, or their counterparts in the International Brigades, pitching into another nation’s tribulations on a whim.

    O’Duffy and his merry men followed the path they thought was right, inspired by the suffering of the clergy. A friend of mine, now aged 100, attempted to intervene on the Republican side, inspired by his wife who was Jewish. The Republicans confiscated their ambulance and deported them as spies. Which was very nice, they could have shot them. Which of these was right? In the past I might have said the centenarian, but on reflection I would say neither. In an ideal world priests, Jews, chemists, hairdressers and agricultural labourers all have the right to life.

    Do you accept though that pre-WWII centrist democracies were a numerical majority in Europe over totalitarianism of whatever hue? (though possibly not a majority of population).

    This is irrelevant. The big armies belonged to Hitler and Stalin. They rode roughshod over such countries as Romania, Czechoslovakia and Poland. Well basically over all non-Fascist countries on the continent, except for Switzerland and Sweden. People had to choose one side or another. Even if they did not, their parties realigned themselves and they woke up Fascist or Communist.

  • PaddyReilly

    Irish Republicanism has unfortunately flirted with the most dodgy ideologies of the last hundred years or so including of course Nazism and more recently Islamic fundamentalists.

    And so has everyone else. The Americans funded islamic fundamentalists in Afghanistan to fight the Communists, they funded Saddam Hussein to fight the Persians, the Daily Mail endorsed the Nazis, Churchill’s cousin’s daughter was Hitler’s girlfriend, her sister was a Communist, Churchill permitted communist atrocities against the White Russians, it goes on and on and on. The Irish, having sat out the last war as neutrals, are the people least likely to have been involved in the general atrocities. And yet you seem to think you can corral them into some hereditary collective guilt, itself a fascist concept.

  • Doctor Who

    Dave

    The fact that Edward Windsor had fascist sympathies is hardly news nor is the fact he was forced to advocate. I do not see how the present day Royal Family coming out and calling him a “a nazi loving fucker” would help matters, even though he was.

  • Doctor Who

    Dave

    The fact that Edward Windsor had fascist sympathies is hardly news nor is the fact he was forced to abdicate. I do not see how the present day Royal Family coming out and calling him a “a nazi loving fucker” would help matters, even though he was.

  • It was Sammy McNally what done it

    PaddyReilly, very well put – especially for a BallyJamesDuffer.

    p.s. As an English friend of mine used to like to
    describe Ireland’s behaviour during the emergency as “anti-English neutrality”.

  • Seimi

    Jesus H. Crisps! A thread about a racist sign in a window in the Village has now grown into ‘who was the biggest fascist’!

    The fact of the matter is, there are many, many racists among us, whether they be Irish, English, British, Catholic, Protestant, young, old or whatever. The question people should be asking here, over and over again, is – How do we stop this?

    There was a parade from the Cultúrlann to Writers Square earlier in the year, to celebrate not only the Irish language, but also the cultural diversity and multi-cultural wealth of this city, and indeed the entire six counties. The parade, as well as the events in the Cultúrlann itself, were well attended, with around 2,500 people walking, cheering, shouting, singing its way down the road. The ethnic groups who took part – Indian, African, Chinese, Korean, Spanish, Basque, Catalonian, Welsh (Yes! Some Welsh came over for it!), Egyptian and more, all hailed it as a great success. We all had a conversation class before the parade, where we learned how to say ‘Hello’ and ‘How are you’ in each others languages. No slogans, no war-crys, just ‘Hello’ and ‘How are you.’ And it was great.

    I can’t remember ANY event of this scale happening ANYWHERE in the north to welcome the ethnic minorities in this part of Ireland to the island. Can anyone else?

    Perhaps we should organise another parade next year, in fact, 4 of them, coming from north, south, east and west, and meeting together in the city centre, to show other peoples that we are not a bunch of knuckle-dragging neanderthals, too set in our ways, but are actually decent, ordinary folk, just like our neighbours, who happen to be from other countries/continents/nations.

    Russell was a bigger fascist than Windsor. Jesus Swept.

  • PaddyReilly

    An English friend of mine used to like to describe Ireland’s behaviour during the emergency as “anti-English neutrality”

    It wasn’t. The Irish Government slanted the neutrality in as many ways as possible in the British favour, not out of affection, but because the Englezes were best positioned to make things difficult for Ireland. The Germans even dropped bombs on Dublin as a warning about their behaviour. By the end of the war the whole area was effectively a GI Rest and Recreation post.

  • PaddyReilly

    to show other peoples that we are not a bunch of knuckle-dragging neanderthals, too set in our ways

    Actually we are, and this thread proves it.

  • Observee

    Anti-English neutrality?

    How was it arranged that every RAF man shot down over the 26 counties was one of the four from of their flyers from occupied Europe, an Eagle or Scottish or Welsh?

  • Seimi

    I think you may be right PaddyReilly. Very sad.

  • Dave

    Fair enough, Gael, however it’s a tad dodgy to extrapolate the morality of a multitude from the actions of one man. If Irish nationalists are damned by Russell, then British monarchists are damned by King Edward. Fortunately, in the real world, neither are.

  • RepublicanStones

    ‘Irish Republicanism has unfortunately flirted with the most dodgy ideologies of the last hundred years or so including of course Nazism and more recently Islamic fundamentalists.’

    Im sure your well versed in the british establishments ties and sympathies to nazism. now about the republican movements links to Islamic fundamentalists….please elaborate.

  • westy

    ”You might also mention the anti-apartheid movement in South Africa and Che Guevara etc”

    ah,yes,the glorious ANC,who engaged in a bloody ethnic war with the Zulus in which they massacred Zulu children by beheading them and in the process made our provos look like miss marple….and good old Che,a bloodthirsty Argentine egotist whose ludicrusly childish economic and political ideas were overshadowed by the fact that he took a good photo….and let’s not forget ETA,international coke-dealers FARC(so much for DAAD,eh?),Gaddaffi,the Eastern Bloc etc…and aligning one’s organisation with lunatics like this is suppossed to be a good thing?

  • Dave said:
    “Russell was dead before that order was given. Prior to that the policy was deportation.”

    Prior to that the Einsatzgruppen had already done things that no decent Irish patriot should want to be associated with, on top of the prewar activities of the SA and the SS.

    That the “final” solution was commenced in 1942 after Wannsee is immaterial as plenty of “interim” solutions were well under way. If the way had ended abruptly in 1941 Russell and other IRA personnel who decided their enemy’s enemy was their friend would have more than enough on their conscience.

  • Wub Webmadge

    “Some people have told me that we need fascism. We have the Orange order. We have the B-Specials. What need have we of fascism?”