GAC helps attacked hall

In the latest in a series of attacks on Newtownbutler Orange Hall, sectarian grafitti and a GAA Flag and bunting were placed on the building. Members of the local GAC helped in their removal (Registration reqd).

  • the future’s bright the future’s orange

    At last a good news story – thanks for pointing this one out fair deal. This is the type of action that really builds bridges between the 2 communities. There may be hope for us all yet…

  • Blackmouth

    Fair play to the local GAA Club for helping out in the clean up operation. Very positive news story. Of course, Dickinson and his ilk would probably be horrified at such a prospect.

  • POL

    Well this wouldnt be the first time this cross-community initative has been taken, A few back i recall a protestant church helping remove graffiti from a catholic chapel..and then you had the cross-community support at Harryville.

    Good moves by all concerned.

  • Not far from the Fermanagh town where (by mutual consent) the same cherry picker took down the 12th bunting and hung up GAA bunting for the Ulster Championship. Seems to be something in the air in East Fermanagh.

  • PeaceandJustice

    It’s a small start and a welcome gesture. The GAA in Fermanagh now needs to work on renaming the Louis Leonard Memorial Park at St Patrick’s GAA club, Donagh.

    Having a park named after a Sinn Fein PIRA terrorist sends out all the wrong signals to the Protestant Unionist community in an area which has suffered so much at the hands of Sinn Fein PIRA death squads.

  • pfhl

    well done to the local GAC. Hopefully a few blinkered unionists will realise that the GAA is made up of decent people simply interested in promoting their sports within the community. With this comes a great community spirit in many GAA villages and from this story, I would say some people who are willing to put themselves out to build bridges.

    POL

    I remember the help at harryville, the cross community support was greatly appreciated by any catholics. It had been a refreshment after a DUP supported campaign to picket harryville. It helped me see past the simple divisions at the time. I was quite a lot younger and this episode helped me realise bigots such as Davy Tweed do not represent the broader unionist community.

  • pfhl

    P&J;I am sure they don’t care if you go. What is your fetish with the GAA that you need to talk about them so much. Have you been to many matches?

  • PeaceandJustice

    To pfhl – it’s relevant to this story. I understand that Donagh is not so far from Newtownbutler where the incident occurred. By the GAA linking itself to violent Republican terrorists, it’s no wonder that some of them think it’s OK to attack Protestant halls and churches.

    While it might annoy you that I point out such links, this issue is not going to go away. I hope for the sake of everyone (incl the tax payers that help fund it) that the GAA can transform itself into a normal sporting organisation. If you want a normal society, you should be hoping for the same.

  • Lemon Peel

    Cross community initiatives like these are great. They really warm the heart. But I think we need more. I think I’ll go off and burn down a chapel just so I can help paint the doors once they rebuild it. Any suggestions which ?

  • pfhl

    P&J;,

    My problems with the GAA are that I don’t think it pays enough attention to Hurling. When it does, they certainly don’t give a damn about outside Leinster and Munster. I don’t like how they favour succesful counties hence decreasing competeition. I do not like how division four teams did not get a chance in the qualifiers. Do I care that you find it offensive? No. You are on this site constantly defending loyalist terrorism or when not defending their actions, you start using whataboutery. Everybody on slugger knows you have no problem with terrorism as long as it is aimed at catholics. What exactly do you mean you hope for the sake of everyone that the GAA transform itself. Who are they a threat to? Who in the GAA attacked this hall? Where is the evidence they were card carrying members of the GAA?

    I honestly hope to never witness you in casement park.

  • It was Sammy McNally what done it

    Really good story – perhaps there could be a twinning in areas where attacks happen which is well publicised and makes it clear that there will be a cross community effort to clear up in the event of an attack.

    PeaceandJustice

    “The GAA in Fermanagh now needs to work on renaming the Louis Leonard Memorial Park” – there are a number of sugggestions as to how the Orange Order should strip itself of its sectarianism but such advice from either side looks less likely to encourage the type of cooperation noted in the post.

  • Democratic

    “Who in the GAA attacked this hall? Where is the evidence they were card carrying members of the GAA?”
    To be fair this “card-carrying evidence” business never seems to protect the Northern Ireland supporters anytime an “sectarianism” issue arrives. All it take is a sniff of an IFA logo somewhere and their off!

  • Harry Flashman

    I very much doubt that any member of the GAA had any hand act or part in the attack on this hall nonetheless it is an excellent symbolic gesture on their part to help in the clean up kudos to them.

  • pfhl

    “Who in the GAA attacked this hall? Where is the evidence they were card carrying members of the GAA?”
    To be fair this “card-carrying evidence” business never seems to protect the Northern Ireland supporters anytime an “sectarianism” issue arrives. All it take is a sniff of an IFA logo somewhere and their off!
    Posted by Democratic on Aug 01, 2008 @ 12:41 PM

    The only time I have criticised the IFA is over what has happened in windsor park in regards to certain chants and songs. How is this not up to the IFA? If there were actions of this nature at clones or casement i would also expect fully deserved criticism if it did happen. Stop using whataboutery.

  • Democratic

    “The only time I have criticised the IFA is over what has happened in windsor park in regards to certain chants and songs. How is this not up to the IFA?” – Fair enough to yourself phfl if this is indeed true – many others use ANY excuse to attack Northern Ireland fans – some with only the most tenuous of links….you are bound to have seen ot yourself I’m sure.

  • pfhl

    I have but I know the IFA can not be blamed for the Neil Lennon incident or things like that. I would commend them on the hard work done since to let these people know their opinions are not welcomed.

  • lorraine

    good to see a report on positive bridge building between people; now if the morons who start these fires and commit these acts of vandalism would only evaporate we would all be happier……

  • Nigeypigey

    good to see a report on positive bridge building between people; now if the morons who start these fires and commit these acts of vandalism would only evaporate we would all be happier……

    If only, it would give us more time to start on the Poles, Portuguese, etc..

  • PeaceandJustice

    To pfhl – I don’t and never have supported terrorism of any kind. I hope you can say the same.

    You’re in denial about the GAA while anything with a tinge of Loyalism gets your full condemnation.

    To ‘It was Sammy McNally what done it’ – the Orange Order doesn’t claim to be a sporting organisation. It’s a Protestant organisation. The GAA claims it is a sporting organisation yet has associations with recent Republican death squad leaders who murdered members of the local Protestant community. Financially supported by the tax payer.

    If the GAA is against change, then the funding should be cut.

  • An Ceilleachaireach Rua

    P&J;The irony of a proponent of the Loyal Orders composing what you just did is simply exquisite. If you replaced a few words you could turn that right on its head…

    Still, as an aside, I personally do not support the naming of any new trophies or grounds after IRA members. I just don’t see the need. Surely there is some prominent former player or adminsitrator within every county in Ireland who could be honoured for their role in furthering the organisation? This practive has been taken up by the GAA at a national level in the naming of the Tommy Murphy (g’wan the Saffrons), Christy Ring (Dowtcha, Christy biy) and Nicky Rackard cups.

    As a final saide though, dragging that shytola up in a thread which should be emphasising the positives was really, really petty IMO

  • RosleaNaEireann

    Peace and Justice

    Louis Leonard was a leading player with St Patrick’s Donagh when they were formed in 1970.
    There is no reason to change the name of the ground.

  • An Ceilleachaireach Rua

    Roslea,

    i ndáríre, do you actually believe that’s the reason that he in particular was honoured over the other 30-odd panel members of his day? It’s divisive and needlessly so.

    I’m not saying that the GAA should accept some adonyne identity to attract more Protestants (after all, the GAA is a culturally nationalist organisation) but going out of your way to annoy is a little childish. IMO.

  • It was Sammy McNally what done it

    PeaceandJustice

    “the Orange Order doesn’t claim to be a sporting organisation” So what? We are talking about attacks on the premises of communities by persons from the other side of the fence.

    In any reasonable evaluation of the 2 organistations, as to which is does most damage to community relations the Orange Order would be a clear winner. Of course that is a matter of opinion – but if you happen to have any British friends on the mainland run that by them and see what answer you get.

  • A N Other

    P&J;,

    A little off thread I know, but do you actually believe that the GAA really need money from the UK government???

    …Mudder a gawd, the organisation is absolutely rolling in the stuff!!

    In any event, as long as civil service organisations (such as Belfast CC sponsoing the 12th of July festival in the city centre) are providing money to, for the wont of a better phrase, a “protestant cultural organisation….then expect the same to be reciprocated iro nationalist cultural identity organisations.

  • POL

    p&j;and Democrat.

    I know someone, who knows someone, who`s a cousin of someone who`s the owner of a shop, and she said that it was loyalists that done it, cos she over heard a conversation and they said they knew someone who knew someone who did it.

    So there.I swear.

    No evidence necessary, cos i`ve yet to see you 2 produce any evidence to back up your claims.

  • Outsider

    Not far from the Fermanagh town where (by mutual consent) the same cherry picker took down the 12th bunting and hung up GAA bunting for the Ulster Championship. Seems to be something in the air in East Fermanagh.

    Sammy Morse

    I wouldn’t get too excited, theres much discontent throughout Fermanagh with Protestantism at how little time the twelfth bunting can go up for in comparison to the GAA bunting.

  • [Edited by moderator – play the ball]

  • Outsider

    [edited by moderator – play the ball]

    Daithi

    Is that the best you can come up with regarding somebody’s views you disagree with? There are a couple of us Protestants on these boards, surely we can’t cause you too much distress.

  • Democratic

    “p&j;and Democrat.

    I know someone, who knows someone, who`s a cousin of someone who`s the owner of a shop, and she said that it was loyalists that done it, cos she over heard a conversation and they said they knew someone who knew someone who did it.”

    Did what exactly Plug?

    Did you actually read my post or does one lot of cobblers do for everyone you have issue with?
    My posts and P&J;’s had absolutely nothing in common….the thing I was interested in on this thread was to see how certain attitudes would be
    shifted from their musings on other threads -(Namely the NI football ones) I’m sure I won’t have to wait long now you are on the scene….

  • POL

    something wrong Democrat?….I pull you up on a very valid point ( evidence) a necessity in any debate and you go and get all contankerous on me. LOL.

  • PeaceandJustice

    I’ve never once saw a post from a Pan-Nationalist saying that it would be OK to name a football stadium after a member of the modern day UVF/LVF/UDA – regardless of whether they played football or not. Yet apparently it’s OK to name GAA parks after Sinn Fein PIRA murderers. There should be no need to drag politics into sport in any case.

    Outsider – “there’s much discontent throughout Fermanagh .. at how little time the twelfth bunting can go up for in comparison to the GAA bunting.”

    In many areas the GAA mark their territory with GAA bunting and foreign RoI flags. Yet the same people make accusations against others and deny Protestant Unionists the right to celebrate their culture.

    ACR – “I personally do not support the naming of any new trophies or grounds after IRA members. I just don’t see the need.”

    Indeed. Not only do Unionists not see the need, it is also very offensive. Given the attitude of many of the Pan-Nationalist posters on here, that’s probably one of the reason they do it – to offend.

    The GAA should be invited to remove its political baggage and turn itself into a purely sporting organisation. If it refuses it deserves to be treated like a pariah.

  • Ulsters my homeland

    Wish the GAA would wise up and get rid of all the memorials for Republican terrorism. They don’t need this type of thing as it only makes them look like a load of bigots….and the political stance of the organisation, there’s no need for that either. Sport shouldn’t be about Politics!

    Wise up GAA, grow a brain you knuckle dragging Paddies!

  • POL

    #

    Wish the GAA would wise up and get rid of all the memorials for Republican terrorism. They don’t need this type of thing as it only makes them look like a load of bigots….and the political stance of the organisation, there’s no need for that either. Sport shouldn’t be about Politics!

    Wise up GAA, grow a brain you knuckle dragging Paddies!
    Posted by Ulsters my homeland on Aug 01, 2008 @ 08:00 PM

    Am i wrong in thinking uhm is a bigot.lol

  • Democratic

    “I pull you up on a very valid point (evidence)”
    Evidence of what exactly POL? What allegation did I make that has prompted you to post your obtuse message? Yes it is feasible that this attack had nothing to do with any “card carrying” members of the GAA as one poster says – I don’t deny it for one second and the fact that a local club helped clean up the mess will not go un-noticed.
    Did you want evidence of the fact that some (like yourself I’m sure) are content to give the benefit of the doubt when the issue of “sectarianism” raises it head with the GAA tag being within the story compared to pessimistic pronunciations of doom when the IFA or Northern Ireland football are brought into a comparable story – just look at the Healy/Celtic thread or the Junior Milk Cup thread for as much evidence as you could swallow….

  • POL

    Dem

    exactly democrat…its on them very threads that you made several unverified assuptions as fact, failed to produce any credible evidence, then descended into whataboutery.

    However in terms of GAA supporters being involved in this incident..i`ve really no doubt.And if their caught the scum should be charged and convicted for a hate crime (cos thats how i view it).

    But like i said unfounded allegations and whataboutery becomes a tad boring after a while.

    For example the kids in coleraine brought it on themselves (absolutely no proof) and the Healy thingy that he was just reacting to sectarian abuse (also no proof).

  • Democratic

    “But like i said unfounded allegations and whataboutery becomes a tad boring after a while.

    For example the kids in coleraine brought it on themselves (absolutely no proof) and the Healy thingy that he was just reacting to sectarian abuse (also no proof).”

    Tell you what POL – you show me where I said anything remotely like that about the “coleraine kids” and I’ll give you a gold plated apology and start taking you a lot more seriously.
    As for Healy – yes as it happens I do believe he was reacting to abuse from Celtic fans – in fact I think that much is perfectly obvious to anyone -was it sectarian or “good natured banter” from both sides? – like you say – the only “evidence” either of us have is what was reported in the newspapers, internet reports and Healy’s own version of events – we both know what we believe but then again I suppose can’t prove to you that there is no life on Mars, no Easter Bunny and no Father Christmas either……
    Anyway why bring any of that up on this thread when it is irrelevant to the current topic or is this just your attempt to destroy my credibility as a poster rather than tackle the point I made?

  • Outsider

    Quite a number of posts in and as of yet not one message of condemnation from a Nationalist/Catholic contributor regarding this attack. The only thing that any Nationalist has written is “Its good to read a good news story,” is the attack on the hall the good news story?

  • It was Sammy McNally what done it

    Outsider,

    It is quite obvious that posters above who support Nationalist actions in clearing up after the attack on the Orange hall would therefore be totally against these attacks.

    Quite obvious that is unless you choose not to see it. A bit like Peace and Justice who also seeks to find something negative to say when clearly Nationlaists are attempting to make amends for those in their own community.

  • PeaceandJustice

    To ‘It was Sammy McNally what done it’ – I’ve already said that it was a welcome gesture. But the GAA needs to remove the root cause of the problem – the link to violent Republican terrorists.

    Do you think it would be OK to name a football stadium after a member of the modern day UVF/LVF/UDA who played football for their local team?

    The silence from Pan-Nationalists on this question is an answer in itself.

  • It was Sammy McNally what done it

    PeaceandJustice

    “Do you think it would be OK to name a football stadium after a member of the modern day UVF/LVF/UDA who played football for their local team?”

    Personally I wouldn’t have a problem with a David Ervine stadium but would not be too keen on the Johnny Adair bowl.

    I dont really make a distinction between “modern day” and current IRA/UVF and as a general rule it is probably better to pick names that are more inclusive and less likely to cause offence to the other side.

    There certainly is an arguement against public funding for non inclusive organsiations like the Orange Order when they encourage intolerance and I dont think they should receive public money to take over the centre of a city (Belfast) where they only make up about half the population.

    The naming of sporting clubs is clearly a very samll issue by comparison with marching through areas where you are not wanted and I invite you again to check out the feeling of some ‘neutrals’ on the mainland.

  • Ulsters my homeland

    “[i]There certainly is an arguement against public funding for non inclusive organsiations like the Orange Order when they encourage intolerance ” [/i]

    The Orange Order is exposing intolerance, anyhow the Orange Order isn’t a sporting body.

    “[i]I dont think they should receive public money to take over the centre of a city (Belfast) where they only make up about half the population. ” [/i]

    Who’s forcing half the population from the city centre? It’s not the Orange Order, the Order wants people other than Protestants to celebrate the day with them.

  • Greagoir O Frainclin

    “The GAA should be invited to remove its political baggage and turn itself into a purely sporting organisation. If it refuses it deserves to be treated like a pariah.” – P&J;
    “Wise up GAA, grow a brain you knuckle dragging Paddies!” – UMH

    It’s understandable I suppose why unionists have a dislike for the GAA and the national games. But rather than just maintaining this constant animosity toward the Gaelic sports body how about understanding why such a pro-Irish republican/nationalist stance became associated with the organisation, and particulary more so in Ulster/NI.

    The Croke Park massacre of 1920 by British forces, to the shooting dead in broad daylight of Aidan McAnespie by British forces, to the plonking of a large military base on GAA grounds by British forces are just some of the incidences I can mention that might have hardened GAA hearts, especially in NI since partition.
    Remember Unionists controlled NI and are reponsible to a degree for creating the discriminatory conditions for the parasitic PIRA to thrive among the Irish Nationalist community. Surely you would agree too.

  • It was Sammy McNally what done it

    Ulsters my homeland

    this post is not exclusively about sporting oraganisations but attacks on Orange Halls and the GAA response.

    About half the population see the Orange Order as secatarian and want nothing to do with their triumphalist and politcal point scoring and yet the city it is effectively closed down for business on a Saturday. Clearly the Parades commission should be looking at keeping it out of the city or re-routing it to the East of the city where it will largely get a receptive and warm welcome or starting and finishing it in the early morning.

  • Ulsters my homeland

    [i]”About half the population see the Orange Order as secatarian and want nothing to do with their triumphalist and politcal point scoring”[/i]

    Surely it’s time that that half of the population opened their eyes and started to tolerate the other half of the population and accept them for who they are, Protestants.

    “[i]and yet the city it is effectively closed down for business on a Saturday.”[/i]

    The Orange Order doesn’t shut the businesses.

    “[i]Clearly the Parades commission should be looking at keeping it out of the city or re-routing it to the East of the city where it will largely get a receptive and warm welcome or starting and finishing it in the early morning.”[/i]

    It’s gets a receptive and warm welcome in the city centre. Grasping at straws are we?

  • Billy

    Good Work by the local GAC.

    “PeaceandJustice”

    The Orange Order claims to be an organisation that supports “civil and religious liberty”.

    Yet, as has been well documented on here, it has past and present “loyalist” terrorists in it’s ranks and does nothing about it.

    It annually permits lodges to use banners/bands commemorating “loyalist” terrorists and takes no action.

    It’s members have openly mixed with known “loyalist” terrorists and been involved in rioting, looting and attacks on the police.

    A senior OO member openly condoned the OO riots and violent attacks on the police at Whiterock. As far as I am aware, he was not disciplined and still holds his senior position within the OO.

    I am not a member or supporter of the GAA. I certainly don’t support everything they do.

    However, as is usual with you, you condemn the Nationalist/Catholic GAA but totally ignore (or often) defend the blatent links between the OO and “loyalist” terrorism.

    Hasn’t it dawned on you by now that You’re not fooling anyone?

    As soon as anyone sees your name – they know that the item will be a criticism of Nationalists/ Catholics (quite often ignoring the actual topic of the thread) and either an ignoring (or defending) of “loyalist” violence.

    You really should start up your own blog (Loyalist terrorism denier.com) and leave the open minded folk on Slugger.

  • It was Sammy McNally what done it

    Ulsters my homeland

    Perhaps you are having difficulty in grasping the point; let me try re-wording it for you.

    The Orange Order is viewed by the vast majority of non Unionists (including British mainlanders) as narrow and intolerant – for obvious reasons it clearly can never claim to have the support of the Nationalists of Belfast.

    Given that Nationalists are probably already a majority in the city and are the actual target for the sectarian outpouring which characterise Orange ‘culture’ then the changed political circumstances and demographics need to be reflected by re-locating these parades to areas where they will “get a receptive and warm welcome” and they do not impact adversely on the commerce of the main city where probably more than half the population want nothing to do with them. I suspect that some ( probably the better educated ) Unionists also see these parades as deeply embarassing and actually contributing to the declining Unionist influence on the mainland.

  • Outsider

    A thread about an attack on an Orange hall has effectively led to some posters indicating the Orange Order should be re-routed in the Belfast parade, the intolerance and bigotry from some is a disgrace.

  • Concerned Loyalist

    It’s a small start and a welcome gesture. The GAA in Fermanagh now needs to work on renaming the Louis Leonard Memorial Park at St Patrick’s GAA club, Donagh.

    Having a park named after a Sinn Fein PIRA terrorist sends out all the wrong signals to the Protestant Unionist community in an area which has suffered so much at the hands of Sinn Fein PIRA death squads.

    Posted by PeaceandJustice on Aug 01, 2008 @ 11:07 AM
    …………………………………………..

    Hear hear. Fair play to the GAC in this wee spot of Ulster for helping out in the clean-up in the aftermath of another sectarian attack on an Orange Hall. However, this is only a token act of cross-community co-operation from one small constituent part of the viscerally sectarian and pro-terrorist Gaelic Athletic Association. Until the names of IRA scum like Martin Hurson – Cappagh, Louis Leonard – Fermanagh and Kevin Lynch (INLA) – Dungiven, are removed from Cup competitions, so-called Memorial Parks and actual GAA team names, respectively, how can the PUL community ever believe the organisation to be anything other than the sporting wing of racist republican terrorism?

  • Concerned Loyalist

    I very much doubt that any member of the GAA had any hand act or part in the attack on this hall.

    Posted by Harry Flashman on Aug 01, 2008 @ 01:17 PM

    Knowing the make-up of this organisation and the brand of republcianism they promote, I humbly beg to differ with you…

  • pfhl

    A thread about an attack on an Orange hall has effectively led to some posters indicating the Orange Order should be re-routed in the Belfast parade, the intolerance and bigotry from some is a disgrace.
    Posted by Outsider on Aug 03, 2008 @ 02:50 PM

    Also, the thread is about members of the GAA helping to clean up after an attack on an orange hall. Nobody is saying the attack is alright or we would not be commending the local GAC on cleaning up after the attack.

    Some local retards who probably would not have considered visiting croke today use green and white to deface an orange hall. It is not a suprise, we know the north is full of these arseholes. The local GAC who no doubt have many members licking their wounds right now after that god awful display had the decency to help clean up. Where do the unwarranted attacks on the GAA come from? Surely their actions are to be commended as helping to bridge the divide. There is no doubt this attack is wrong. I totally disagree with what the orange order stand for but they are entitled to their views.

  • Concerned Loyalist

    Clearly the Parades commission should be looking at keeping it out of the city or re-routing it to the East of the city where it will largely get a receptive and warm welcome or starting and finishing it in the early morning.

    Posted by It was Sammy McNally what done it on Aug 02, 2008 @ 02:43 PM………………………

    It would get a warm reception in Sandy Row, the Greater Shankill and Ballysillan and they’re in the South, West and North of the city respectively, so there goes your argument that only the East of the city is “Orange-friendly”….

  • It was Sammy McNally what done it

    Outsider

    “A thread about an attack on an Orange hall has effectively led to some posters indicating the Orange Order should be re-routed in the Belfast parade, the intolerance and bigotry from some is a disgrace”

    My remarks about the unacceptability of loyalist parades was in response to “Peace and Justice” etc sounding off about the GAA. If the GAA is going to be verbally attacked it is important to remind those who do so that they support an organisation whose record on cross community relations is appaling and far worse that the GAA’s. Nationalists( who are probably a majority in Belfast) have to endure sectarian marches through their city and the commercial impact of these marches in Belfast should be looked at by the parades commission given their controversial nature, the fact that they often result in an increase in offensive sectarian behaviour by the Unionist community and if truth were told are very bad publicity for a city trying to shake of a negative image.

    To return to the main debate… As mentioned above I dont see any reason why the Orange Order halls should not have a publically agreed arrangement with the nearest GAA club local that in the event of an attack each side would help to clean up. It would be useful to hear those accusing me of bigotry to welcome this exercise in practical cross community cooperation.

  • pfhl

    To return to the main debate… As mentioned above I dont see any reason why the Orange Order halls should not have a publically agreed arrangement with the nearest GAA club local that in the event of an attack each side would help to clean up. It would be useful to hear those accusing me of bigotry to welcome this exercise in practical cross community cooperation.
    Posted by It was Sammy McNally what done it on Aug 03, 2008 @ 05:21 PM

    Sounds like a great idea. Though I am concerned that some of the mindless bigots would probably then attack their ‘own’ premises to see the other side clean it up. Would it suprise you?

  • Outsider

    I didn’t realise this thread was simply started to pat the GAA on the back, and to attack the Orange Order further. The means of attacking the order on Slugger may be different from that used in the attack in Newtownbutler but the mindsets are the same.

  • It was Sammy McNally what done it

    phfl,

    “Sounds like a great idea. Though I am concerned that some of the mindless bigots would probably then attack their ‘own’ premises to see the other side clean it up. Would it suprise you?

    No – but I have a feeling that if it was a ‘homer’ then it would be picked up.

    Anyone know a suitable organisation who deal in cross community relations that I should suggest this to?

  • Outsider

    Anyone know a suitable organisation who deal in cross community relations that I should suggest this to?

    Sinn Fein/IRA or the GAA both pretty tolerant bodies .

  • It was Sammy McNally what done it

    Outsider,

    I suggest you have a word with ‘PeaceandJustice’ who used this thread to make negative remarks about the GAA.

    But lets move on…

    It would be reassuring to hear someone from the Unionist side of the fence being positive about a possible agreement between local GAA clubs and Orange Halls.

  • Outsider

    But lets move on…

    It would be reassuring to hear someone from the Unionist side of the fence being positive about a possible agreement between local GAA clubs and Orange Halls.

    It was Sammy McNally what done it

    Can we in the Protestant/Unionist/Loyalist community not be left alone? Without having to integrate and get involved in cross community events all the time.

  • It was Sammy McNally what done it

    Outsider,

    “Can we in the Protestant/Unionist/Loyalist community not be left alone? Without having to integrate and get involved in cross community events all the time”

    Yes most of the time that is probably a good idea – but sometimes if bigots from the Nationalist side of the fence are attacking the buildings belonging to your cultural organisation it is probably a good idea to join with sensbible Nationalists in trying to undermine these idiots.

  • Outsider

    Yes most of the time that is probably a good idea – but sometimes if bigots from the Nationalist side of the fence are attacking the buildings belonging to your cultural organisation it is probably a good idea to join with sensbible Nationalists in trying to undermine these idiots.

    It was Sammy McNally what done it

    It seems like spinning a situation to get a positive image that may otherwise have cast Nationalists in a poor light.

  • It was Sammy McNally what done it

    Outsider

    “cast Nationalists in a poor light”

    Could not agree with you more.

    Personally speaking I could not give a shit about spin – I think it is important to make clear to Unionists that attacks of this nature do not have the support of sensible Nationalists. Hopefully, that message will be of some comfort to people who are on the receiving end.

  • Concerned Loyalist

    Outsider

    “cast Nationalists in a poor light”

    Could not agree with you more.

    Personally speaking I could not give a shit about spin – I think it is important to make clear to Unionists that attacks of this nature do not have the support of sensible Nationalists. Hopefully, that message will be of some comfort to people who are on the receiving end.

    Posted by It was Sammy McNally what done it on Aug 03, 2008 @ 07:22 PM…………………………………………

    Yawn…you can say that these mindless sectarian inbreds are not representative of the RC/nationalist community until you’re blue in the face. The fact of the matter, however, is that PUL community believe that the wider nationalist community view these attacks on Orange Halls with a certain degree of ambivalence at the very least.

  • slug

    “It would be reassuring to hear someone from the Unionist side of the fence being positive about a possible agreement between local GAA clubs and Orange Halls.”

    Sounds like a good idea. Reaseured now?

  • It was Sammy McNally what done it

    Slug

    yes.

  • It was Sammy McNally what done it

    Concerned Loyalist

    “view these attacks on Orange Halls with a certain degree of ambivalence at the very least”

    assuming there was reciprocal arrangements between GAA clubs and Orange Order halls – surely that would convince people on both sides that these attacks did not have majority support from the other side of the community?

  • Outsider

    Sammy

    What you are suggesting is a cosmetic exercise to shield the GAA. I feel this quasi political organisation needs to wake up and realise it has no support within the Protestant community.

  • It was Sammy McNally what done it

    Outsider

    “I feel this quasi political organisation needs to wake up and realise it has no support within the Protestant community”

    The GAA know that – and that will probably not change for some time – but there is no reason why both members of the OO and the GAA do not demonstrate to each other that they do not support attacks on each others premises.

  • Outsider

    The GAA know that – and that will probably not change for some time – but there is no reason why both members of the OO and the GAA do not demonstrate to each other that they do not support attacks on each others premises.

    Sammy

    But do they? Its seems that in public particularly in workplaces Protestant have to endure endless conversations about Gaelic, I’m sure if we mentioned the twelfth there would be a deadly silence.

  • It was Sammy McNally what done it

    thats the problem with Sports fans – they can be an obsessive lot.

  • Outsider

    Sammy

    Don’t misinterpret the Protestant community as we love sports, however we don’t recognise the GAA as a sporting organisation and find any conversations about it extremely offensive.

  • pfhl

    Outsider,

    You seem to be offended by the hand of friendship by the GAA, would you rather they had not helped clean the hall just so they would look bad? Do people get offended by talk of a GAA game? What is offensive about people kicking a ball about? Or hitting a ball about with a piece of wood? I know plenty of protestants that have enquired to me about the GAA as they are interested in sports. I don’t agree with the view that the protestant community find any talk of the GAA very offensive.

  • RepublicanStones

    ‘and find any conversations about it extremely offensive’

    Ahh, so you go out of your way to be offended. Those who would seek to lump the GAA in with the OO are facetious. One does not bar someone from partaking based upon their religion. So anyone who mentions either in the same breath is really clutching at atraws. The GAA is a sporting and cultural organistaion which predates the artifical partition of this country. The GAA seeks to promote the native games and culture of IRELAND, the fact that the existence of such an organistion calls into the question the legitimacy of the enforced partition by a minority of this land immaturely beholden to a foreign land which couldn’t care less about them, is the reason why people seek to undermine it. They attempt to condemn it for daring to use the name of people connected to groupings which sought to overthrow the little sectarian Rhodesia they have made for themselves, and pretend this is their only beef with the organisation. No doubt we can expect the same people to advocate the removal of the name Cromwell or Chichester etc from streets as they don’t have the best reputation in Ireland in regard of the native Irish. I await an outpouring of indignation and amphibology !

  • Concerned Loyalist

    ‘and find any conversations about it extremely offensive’

    Ahh, so you go out of your way to be offended
    Posted by RepublicanStones on Aug 04, 2008 @ 03:09 AM…………………………………..

    So you support the Northern Ireland football team? Or do you go out of your way to support the foreign R.O.I. side because you’re an anti-Protestant bigot? You can’t have it both ways – either us Prods and you Taigs both go out of our way to get fucked off with the GAA and Northern Ireland football team or both our communities should stick to supporting our own and leaving the other community to do what the hell they want…multiculturalism is great in theory, but it has proven divisive and problematic in mainland Great Britain…maybe we were never meant to integrate! Personally i hope tat doesn’t prove the case as I’m friends with Roman Catholics and regularly speak to ethnic minorities, but with two communities so entrenched, can you blame me for thinking the form of apartheid we have is better than the Upper and Lower Oldpark, for example, coming together? We’re just not ready for full integration…

  • Concerned Loyalist

    I’m sorry for the pessimism, but the peace walls are there for a reason.

    Que sera sera…

  • hotdogx

    Peace and justice, foreign ROI flags you say.

    The tricolor is the preferred flag of the large majority of the people of Ireland. I suggest that you learn to respect that.

    Let me remind you that it is you who considers yourself to be the blow-in around here, you were born and you live in Ireland? but you refuse to accept that you are Irish. What logic!

    Unionists tell us that the union is good for Ireland even though the majority of the population suffered miserably under this regime. So long as it wasn’t their population it was ok. A regime where only unionists had rights.Why do you think in your opinion, why any Irish person would vote for the union or its flag.You must really hate Irish people and all things Irish. Living in Ireland must be difficult for unionists since when living in Ireland you tend to meet lots of Irish people. If you don’t like Irish people maybe its not a good idea to live in Ireland, personal happiness and all that considered!

    Its easy to see which part of Ireland became a success. The one which respected all of its people equally or the one with a unionist government for a unionist people. In your opinion lets hear it.

    As for the orange order, a politico-religious sect worshiping a man on a horse, an ancient war that means very little in modern times but serves only as a sectarian divider.They think that they can march where they like, instead of waving their right to march and waiting to be invited as in any normal country.

    And finally, the British, a union with Britain equals protection of the protestant faith you insist. What rubbish! The Irish Republic did not disestablish the Church of Ireland of which i am a member. There are growing numbers of protestants in the rep today. But then again you probably have never been to the republic have you?

  • Realist

    “either us Prods and you Taigs both go out of our way to get fucked off with the GAA and Northern Ireland football team or both our communities should stick to supporting our own and leaving the other community to do what the hell they want”

    CL,

    There is one major difference to be borne in mind.

    Northern Ireland teams, at all levels, always have, do and always will contain players and supporters from within the nationalist community.

    Evidence the delight and togetherness of the successful Milk Cup winning side on Friday evening – politics irrelevant, religious beliefs unimportant. Players from different backgrounds, united in a sporting cause.

    I was heartened to hear of the members of the GAA Club in Fermanagh giving assistance to their (Orange) neighbours in their hour of need.

    Perhaps they have a true understanding of the meaning of the National flag of the Irish Republic?

  • darth rumsfeld

    “Hopefully a few blinkered unionists will realise that the GAA is made up of decent people simply interested in promoting their sports within the community. With this comes a great community spirit in many GAA villages and from this story, I would say some people who are willing to put themselves out to build bridges”

    A perfectly true and reasonable post. I have many friends in the GAA, whose motivations are as described. There are equally just as many Protestant Orangemen with identical motives for involvement in their organisation. Hopefully some nationalists on this thread will acknowledge that too,but I fear the usual ranters will drown them out.

    Both groups also have a minority who cross the line of being “pro- their own community” to being “anti-themmuns”.To deny this is futile. I’ve no doubt the vast majority of IRA members were in the GAA- as the only local sporting and cultural outlet for young men, or even just the nearest bar in a rural area, they would naturally have gravitated to their club. It doesn’t mean the majority of GAA followers have any truck for the IRA. Perhaps because the majority of Orange halls are “dry” and the meetings dull, my impression is that this would not be such an attractive environment for the type of loyalist who would have paramilitery inclinations- bands and that culture may well be different.

    But if there are 50,000 members of the GAA in NI ( complete guess), and perhaps 1,000 IRA members, it’s hard to say it’s a republican front. And if there are 50,000 Orangemen ( plus family members- very few women and cildren in the Orange structure don’t forget) there may well be a similar percentage of paramilitaries – again a complete guess, since it’s impossible to know. The GAA does have a wider class, age and gender base within its own community, and until recently a broader range of functions- sporting, social, and cultural all probably more important than the political, but don’t pretend it’s not there.The Orange has all of the same interests, but until recently had the political to the fore. This has certainly changed in recent years.

    Both organisations at leadership level struggle to control the grassroots ( see GAA HQ’s problems over the Casement Park Hunger Strike rally for instance)

    “There are growing numbers of protestants in the rep today. But then again you probably have never been to the republic have you?”

    Well I have- hundreds of times- and I see lots of Nigerians, South Africans, and Brits in the pews in Dublin and Cork, but not too many “indigenous Prods”. With the slowing down of the Celtic pussy I wonder how many will still be there in a decade.
    “a union with Britain equals protection of the protestant faith you insist.”
    ..er no. The Protestant faith is big enough to comprise a hundred variants, which can look after themselves or die out. It’s the Protestant community that the Union protects- ad incidentlly the only ecumenical movement for that community is the Orange order. I would never have darkened the door of a Church of Ireland ( except for funerals and weddings) but for the Orange round of church services and church related functions it supports

  • hotdogx

    The union never did damn all for protestants or protestant community (penal laws applied to Presbyterians too). Why are many of the fathers of Irish liberation of protestant faith. Being a protestant is about the reformation,not some politico-religious mix of orangism and colonialism.

    You go on with all this nonsense in the north about “oh how protestants are badly treated in the rep” There might have been some small incidents during the civil war etc but thats it! You will find it very hard to find a prod of any denomination in the Rep who will support your argument. If there are i haven’t met any yet. There are prod TDs many prod business, the two major churches in Dublin are protestant, the catholics have no real proper cathedral. CI church is televised as much as any other.Oh but the republic is a cold house for prods, nonsense, churches don’t get attacked here they do in NI.

    We dont march around in bunches advertising the fact were prods and that we have to kick the pope to upset the catholics, its our own business what we do. Religion and belief are private feelings that are not the concern of others. Only in sectarian NI is religion an important factor. and we don’t vote for shinners in the rep.

    This why i say unionism is an emotional position supported by fear of having to share a future, a future that would be chosen by all Irish people of which unionists are a part.

    Unionists are people who have lost their identity as anglo-irish an identity their ancestors accepted, and have instead clung to British symbolism to differentiate themselves from the rest of the Irish people.

    Ireland was divided by the British for their gain (or loss as it turned out) against the will of the people. This has created a statelet where 42% want out. Not a good outlook for long term stability. Its easy to see which model was a success. The troubles in the north are not due to religion, the problem is British rule has no place in Ireland.

  • It was Sammy McNally what done it

    hotdogx,

    “There might have been some small incidents during the civil war etc”

    Are you familiar with the Peter Hart’s book ‘The IRA and its enemies’.

    Nationalists have a tendency to underplay the sectarian element running through many aspects of Nationlaist controlled society/instutions but (although leaving myself open to the same charge) I think it fair to say that sectarianism is a significantly smaller factor in Nationalist politics than it is in Unionist politics.

  • darth rumsfeld

    “Unionists are people who have lost their identity as anglo-irish an identity their ancestors accepted, and have instead clung to British symbolism to differentiate themselves from the rest of the Irish people”

    bollix
    Unionism is the multi-faceted British-Irish identity that includes Ulster-Scots, and Anglo-Irish. It was nationalism that reacted against that identity, and proscribed a form of Irishness that excluded the British element,because of insecurities about the democratic validity of the new state.The need to forge a different identity was a nationalist requirement, not a Unionist one, but of course Unionism reacted in kind

  • Concerned Loyalist

    I think it fair to say that sectarianism is a significantly smaller factor in Nationalist politics than it is in Unionist politics.

    Posted by It was Sammy McNally what done it on Aug 04, 2008 @ 02:16 PM…………………………………………

    That is utter boll*cks and you know it. None of the mainstream Unionist parties have a private army of Provie anti-British bigots behind them who brutally murdered at least 1,822 people, the vast majority of whom were murdered because of their politics, faith and/or nationality.

  • It was Sammy McNally what done it

    Concerned Loyalist

    I think you are muddling up a couple of things here – violent Republican ideology based on a political objective is not the same thing as sectarianism. You could argue – which I’m sure you would – that it is worse but the same thing it aint.

  • RepublicanStones

    ‘None of the mainstream Unionist parties have a private army of Provie anti-British bigots behind them’

    Indeed, they had the collective armed forces of Britain, as well as the colonist militia death squads commonly referred to as loyalists to play with.

  • PeaceandJustice

    ‘It was Sammy McNally what done it’ – “I dont see any reason why the Orange Order halls should not have a publically agreed arrangement with the nearest GAA club local that in the event of an attack each side would help to clean up.”

    The idea is good in theory. But the stumbling block comes back to GAA clubs named after Republican death squad members. It would be an insult to the members of the Orange Order who have had their kith and kin murdered by such Republicans.

    Outsider – “Its seems that in public particularly in workplaces Protestant have to endure endless conversations about Gaelic, I’m sure if we mentioned the twelfth there would be a deadly silence.”

    Very true. As they admit they are a Nationalist organisation with a sporting wing, Protestants shouldn’t have to endure discussions about a political group.

    hotdogx – “You must really hate Irish people and all things Irish.”

    Unionists have no problem with all things Irish in a British context. Also, you conveniently forget the Protestant minority in the RoI who were discriminated against and had to keep silent or be driven out. The RoI tricolour is a foreign flag – fact – as Northern Ireland is part of the UK. You can choose to associate yourself with it – but it’s foreign.

    To Greagoir O Frainclin – Picking selective events does not prove or justify anything.

    To Billy – The usual rant from you which I will ignore. You clearly don’t want a Protestant about the place.

    pfhl – “Where do the unwarranted attacks on the GAA come from?”

    See above as regards their assocation with murdering terrorists. Have you been asleep?

    It was Sammy McNally what done it – “violent Republican ideology based on a political objective is not the same thing as sectarianism”

    Try telling that to the Protestant families along the border who suffered ethnic cleansing because they were Protestants.

    The original question I asked was:

    Do you think it would be OK to name a football stadium after a member of the modern day UVF/LVF/UDA who played football for their local team?

    Besides a couple of exceptions we’ve had the usual silence from the Pan-Nationalist front. I assume the silence means that it wouldn’t be acceptable. Therefore I expect you all to be in contact with the GAA leadership over this issue.

  • slug

    darth rumsfeld as usual makes very interesting reading. Thankx.

  • runciter

    Unionism is the multi-faceted British-Irish identity that includes Ulster-Scots, and Anglo-Irish.

    And excludes >40% of the population who do not wish to be ruled by Britain.

    It was nationalism that reacted against that identity, and proscribed a form of Irishness that excluded the British element

    That’s a strange (and inaccurate) way of putting it.

    Better to say that they decided they didn’t want to be part of the British Empire.

    If you can get your head around that concept, things will start to make more sense to you.

  • RepublicanStones

    Again with the crying about the names of clubs etc !!!!

    Obviously then the same people are willing to see the removal of place or street names using the likes of Cromwell or Chichester etc on it. As there are many names used by the colonial establishment which have a bad, bad reputation within the native irish community.

  • Dave

    It’s interesting that many commentators who formerly denied that nationalist sectarianism existed because the denial served the interests of the Shinners are now keen to admit that nationalist sectarianism does exist because that acceptance now serves the interests of the Shinners, i.e. “Nationalist sectarianism, thy name is dissidency.”

  • Concerned Loyalist

    Concerned Loyalist

    I think you are muddling up a couple of things here – violent Republican ideology based on a political objective is not the same thing as sectarianism. You could argue – which I’m sure you would – that it is worse but the same thing it aint.

    Posted by It was Sammy McNally what done it on Aug 04, 2008 @ 10:29 PM…………………………………………

    So the Kingsmill massacre was “based on a political objective”? May I remind you:

    On January 5, 1976, a Ford Transit mini-bus carried sixteen textile workers travelling home from work in Glenanne to Bessbrook along the Whitecross to Bessbrook road, of whom five were Catholics and eleven were Protestants. Four of the Catholics got out at Whitecross, while the remainder continued on the road to Bessbrook. At this point, the coach was stopped by a group of approximately twelve armed men waiting on the road. At first, the workers assumed that they were being stopped and searched by a British Army or RUC checkpoint, and when ordered to line up beside the bus, they obeyed. However, at this point, the gunmen ordered the only Catholic, Richard Hughes, to step forward. Hughes’ workmates thought then that the armed men were loyalists, come to kill Hughes and tried to stop him from identifying himself, however, when he stepped forward, he was told, “Get down the road and don’t look back”.

    The remaining eleven men were shot, with Armalite rifles, SLRs, a 9mm pistol and an M1 carbine, a total of 136 rounds were fired in less than a minute. Ten men died at the scene, and one, Alan Black, survived despite having eighteen gunshot wounds.

    This was only one of dozens of examples of border Protestants being murdered for their faith by the viscerally sectarian South Armagh Brigade of the Provisional IRA, so don’t come on here defending the undefendable.

    The Provos weren’t freedom fighters, they were a centrally organised group of sectarian murder gangs.

  • Louis Leonard was gnned down in his shop by Protestant cricket loving, Windsor Park trippers, the same type of scum who have been responsible for murdering other GAA members and luring Catholic women to their deaths. Protestant sectariand, In Fermanagh and elsewhere, who have no interest in the GAA, should keep their noses out of the GAA. Donagh’s decision was correct. The views of the B Specials/UDR/PSNI are irrelevant. Rapists should not comment on those they have abused.

  • It was Sammy McNally what done it

    Concerned Loyalist

    “The Provos weren’t freedom fighters, they were a centrally organised group of sectarian murder gangs”

    I did not say that Republicans did not carry out sectarian killings but that “Republican ideology was based on a political objective” the removal of the British – and not on sectarianism – the vast majority of their ‘operations’ were designed to undermine the British presence and had feck all to do with religion.

  • PeaceandJustice

    Oswald Murphy – “should keep their noses out of the GAA”.

    Louis Leonard was an active member of a Sinn Fein PIRA death squad involved in murdering Protestants in Fermanagh. The GAA claims it is a sporting organisation and therefore receives funding from the taxpayer as well as getting extensive coverage on the BBC – again funded by the general public. So it is our business.

    Just like RepublicanStones, you fail to answer the question: Do you think it would be OK to name a football stadium after a member of the modern day UVF/LVF/UDA who played football for their local team?

  • Democratic

    Protestant sectariand, In Fermanagh and elsewhere, who have no interest in the GAA, should keep their noses out of the GAA.

    Don’t worry Oswald – as far as I know the only Prod playing GAA in Fermanagh finally wrapped the place up as a bad job – in fact he left the country altogether….I’m sure your like-minded kinsfolk helped him make his decision no end when they started with the broken windows and burning cars…

  • RepublicanStones

    Nice CL, bring up the old Kingsmill chestnut. you did however leave out one vital piece of information, the survivor reported that the leader of the Kingsmill group spoke with an english accent. just like the leader of the miami showband guys. funny that aint it? i suggest you go away and read about General Frank Kitson and his sickening colonial war polices which were incorporated into the north. You see CL, the brits used your ‘people’ as pawns, uncomfortable truth, but truth nonetheless.

  • PeaceandJustice

    It’s the fault of everyone else except you RS – and your blood-soaked Sinn Fein PIRA friends.

  • RepublicanStones

    Great comeback P&J;, just great !

    The brits done more murdering than you give them credit for, truth hurts !

  • PeaceandJustice

    To RS – You seem to have found your ‘voice’ again after failing to answer the question: Do you think it would be OK to name a football stadium after a member of the modern day UVF/LVF/UDA who played football for their local team?

  • RepublicanStones

    No, obvioulsy nobody likes colonial militia death squad members save those whose narrow bigoted agenda they serve. Ideally politicsd and sport shouldn’t mix, but given the british establishments trweatment of the GAA and the irish people at large, throughout history i can fully understand people choosing to do so. But you seem to think its ok to have streets named after mass murderers here in Ireland, so you can’t have it both ways. So are you now advocating the renaming of these places?
    Also i don’t recall you asking me that outright in the first place, i may be wrong.

  • PeaceandJustice

    You talk about the naming of streets from earlier conflicts on the island. In Eire there are also many places named after people from earlier conflicts.

    I asked about the modern day UVF/LVF/UDA given that most Pan-Nationalists seem to support the naming of GAA venues after Sinn Fein PIRA and IRSP INLA murderers.

    For the modern day UVF/LVF/UDA you say “no, obviously” and for Sinn Fein PIRA you say “i can fully understand people choosing to do so”.

    Your answers speak for themselves and show the hypocritical attitude of Pan-Nationalists.

  • RepublicanStones

    ‘from earlier conflicts on the island’

    Laughable, considering its been one long conflict with intermittent periods of peace. Are you seriously suggesting the Troubles had nothing to do with previous history here in Ireland????? Are you for real???????

    We know your policy now P&J;, you can use the names of murdering ethnic cleansing scumbags from the british establishment legacy, but we irish can’t use names of people who were lollipop men by comparison. Your bigotry is there for all to see, well done.