Is Robinson a Mini-Brown?

Brian Feeney seems to think so. In his Irish News column this week, Feeney argues that Robinson lacks authority and is “congenitally a number two.” Though Feeney doesn’t allude to it, Robinson has hardly been helped by the staccato-like counter-productive media interventions of his wife and fellow DUP MP/MLA, Iris Robinson, who this week was the subject of a stinging attack by unionist commentator, Lindy McDowell, in which the columnist joined those calling for the head of the senior DUP politician- labelling the Strangford MP as Ayatollah Iris, DUP Minister for Homophobia.

  • Crow

    I think it is way too premature to write off Robinson as a leader. He has big shoes to fill, (literally and figuratively) and has inherited a bunch of contentious issues that were nicely ripening just as he took over. No honeymoon glow for Robinson, that was enjoyed by his predecessor. Only time will tell if he has what it takes to be numero uno. But that time is approaching fast.

    However, as to the second part of your post, I really doubt that Robinson is at all phased by Iris’s missteps. I don’t think he will lose much support, if any, in NI and apart from a few scowls at Westminster, it’s really a non event for him.

  • percy

    chris ,
    That picture of robbo is too kind
    Try this one:
    http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/mhqlkfkfgbey/
    seems like he and Grizzly have the handbags out 😉

  • Damien Okado-Gough

    Chris,
    It’s difficult to guage the full reaction to Iris Robinson’s recent bout of political insanity from this distance, but judging by the internet content on it, she’s getting a royal roasting.

    However, I’m not sure that this will really damage the DUP electorally, but I’m just too far away to make a judgement on what’s happening on the ground there.

    I suspect, though, that too many have made the jump from the UUP, and there are too many vested interests in the DUP’s continued success, to let this derail them. I suspect that the tactic will be to have Iris belt up for a while and for them to rally around to attack the common enemy, Catholics, Nationalists and Republicans. A fair bout of fear-mongering will whip the troops into line there.

    My further suspicion is though, that there are simply too many people like Iris in the DUP to avoid recurring incidents like this. Indeed, what other party leader (Ian Paisley) could publicly declare himself to be a racist and have barely anyone bat an eyelid?

    I’m praying that the confidence to speak out on issues that power tends to give, is all the rope they need to hang themselves politically.

    Their opponents should be looking for every way to draw out their extremist views on every issue imaginable: their position of women in society; racism (Indeed, what party leader, other than Ian Paisley could publicly declare himself to be a racist and have barely anyone bat an eyelid?); the never-on-a-sunday nonsense; sex and sexuality etc, just to show to everyone what exactly we are dealing with in them.

  • Damien Okado-Gough

    Ah, and on the ‘Is Robbo another Brown question?’, no, insofar as the northern Irish electorate is not the British electorate.
    The latter do not deserve the “most sophisticated” label that many of our politicians butter them up with. They vote primarily along ethnic lines and unless the UUP stoop low enough to play the ethnic card better than the DUP, they will not will able to beat them back into second place.

  • Dave

    “Their opponents should be looking for every way to draw out their extremist views on every issue imaginable…”

    Hmmmm… isn’t the moral argument that she should not express those views because their expression causes harm to others? If that argument holds, then encouraging others like her to express similar views is simply promoting harm to others. And if it that argument doesn’t hold, then what harm does she do to others by expressing her views? None, obviously. So why berate those who do no harm? Just for sport or self-serving political advantage? She, at least, does not beleive that she is causing harm to anyone, but what should one make of those who allege a harm yet actively seek to promote it?

  • Damien Okado-Gough

    Dave,

    My point is that these people not just hold and sometimes express these views, but that they are in the government of NI and have significant legislative power over its people.

    People who hold such views to be abominable should fear that if they might see these people try to push legislation reflecting such views.

    Therefore, it’s important to get these views out into the open so that people can see what they’re dealing with in the DUP.

  • slug

    Peter Robinson hasn’t shown Brown’s tendency to dither.

  • Chris Donnelly

    I’d agree with the thrust of each post to date on the thread. Slug’s right that it’s too early to conclude that he’s a ditherer, as Feeney proclaims, though Robinson will have been aware of the deepening crisis before even assuming office and could have acted more swiftly to resolve matters to avoid having such a problematic ‘take over.’

    I would have a lot of respect for Robinson as a strategist as he clearly was responsible for plotting the image transformation of the party since the GFA and bringing in a lot of talented and articulate spokesmen who otherwise might have remained with the UUP (and, in the case of Foster, at least one gifted ‘spokeswoman.’ B

    ut, as Brown’s painful era has illustrated to date, a gifted number two doesn’t always assume leadership well (Durkan springs to mind as well.)

    I agree with the posts pointing out that Iris won’t be losing many votes in the DUP heartlands, but disagree that her remarks to date won’t cause any electoral discomfort to the party. The DUP in the last two elections has virtually swept the board within unionism at Westminster and established an unprecedent position of electoral superiority for the party due to the support of even unionists who probably would define themselves as ‘moderate.’

    Judging by the reaction of unionist contributors to threads on this site, callers-in to Nolan/ Talkback and opinion pieces from people like Lindy McDowell, I’d say the electoral strategists within the DUP know they’ll suffer an adverse reaction in key constituencies like South Belfast as a result of the growing perception of the party as angry towards and intolerant of the gay and lesbian community.

  • austin

    Surely Iris is aware that she has completely stolen the former ‘Herr Apparent’s’ (sic) long-awaited limelight as the newly-crowned King of Ulster (2/3’s of plus, briefly, a bit of Clontibret.)

    At best this seems ungracious and disloyal behaviour towards her spouse. At worst, a deliberate and calculated humiliation of the red-bereted one.

    One can only conclude that Peter The Punt is impotent in trying to prevent his other half from undermining his halcyon days.

    What I’d like to know is what has Iris got on Peter that prevents him from getting her to keep schtum and let him bask in his glory as Top Dawg

  • Rooster Cogburn

    So much pish n’ wishful nationalist thinking thus far. Here’s the real difference between Blair/Brown and Croc/Punt. Brown’s predecessor won every election he thought, and then some. Whereas Robinson’s lost virtually every one of them (being, for 30 years, often at best merely leader of the 3rd placed party). Robinson has two tests: 1.) boxing in SF and driving them demented & 2.) keeping up a commanding intra-Unionist lead over the UUP. 1 = done; 2 = is anyone seriously suggesting that, at the next test, a raft of Westminster seats are going to fall to the UUP? Why exactly?

  • slug

    Chris

    Agree with your assessment including that on Iris.

    On Irish I am glad that you are making an issue of her views. Iris is a problem in modernising the image of the DUP, she has set it back. Iris will need to shut up on this topic.

    On Peter, Feeney is right to say that he is focussed on the European election. While Sinn Féin’s main challenge will be from the more moderate SDLP in that election, especially if they field a strong candndate, the DUP’s will be from the more hardline TUV. This is a new reality that is changing the dynamic in the short run. The DUP will see the TUV as something it is best to nip in the bud (a stitch in time saves nine). The DUP will not want to resolve the policing and justice issue in a way that the TUV can exploit.

    Judge Robinson after the Euros.

  • Slartibuckfast

    Indeed. I always look upon Peter Robinson as bit of a number 2 myself.

  • slug

    In terms of transition from Paisley to Robinson ther is a contrast with Brown.

    While Brown gave the impression of brooding and plotting and hesitating for years before the changeover, Robinson was able to work with Paisley in a much more positive and way than Brown with Blair. Robinson recognised Paisley’s strengths, particularly the value of his electoral and personal endorsement of the new arrangements, and used them to the full. There was no sense of a deeply wounded character who was perpetually plotting and failing to support his leader.

  • Blackmouth

    Has Brian Feeney ever written a piece as caustic and vitriolic about any nationalist politician? Didn’t think so. Wishful thinking on Dr. Brian Hate’s part here.

  • billie-Joe Remarkable

    “Has Brian Feeney ever written a piece as caustic and vitriolic about any nationalist politician? Didn’t think so. Wishful thinking on Dr. Brian Hate’s part here.”

    Good God. Feeney hates the SDLP and slags them off at every available opportunity.

    If this is news to you I suggest you do some more reading and spare us your ill-informed comments. Sorry, that was harsh of me and this is slugger, so feel free to prattle on at length regardless of how little you know about a subject. Why not start an identical thread about Feenye’s article in about half an hour’s time. Cheers.

  • Slarti, with regard to the Brothers Grim, are you talking faeces or fasces – or both?

    Perhaps the Rathlin ferry fiasco will be the laxative that removes the current blockage in the seemingly autocratic, dictatorial and tightly controlled OFMDFM.

    The Northern Ireland Audit Office has responded positively to challenges from Jim Allister and others to investigate the tendering process that was devised by Conor Murphy’s DRD and executed by Peter Robinson’s (then) DFP.

    Will the DRD and DFP facilitate a speedy NIAO investigation or will they drag out the process by bringing in their own ‘independent’ investigators?

    I imagine that NIAO’s forensic study will include contributions from Scotland and the RoI as well as from here.

    I’m told that the publication of Schedule A, Schedule B and Schedule C had a purgative effect on a number of senior Stormont civil servants who’ve been intimately involved in the process, under the direction of their respective Ministers. Were more boxes ticked in Schedule A than should have been ticked?

  • Ulsters my homeland

    “Good God. Feeney hates the SDLP and slags them off at every available opportunity.”

    He’s an intolerance wee Republican bigot, that’s all he is. He showed his intolerance and bigotry on the Nolan show 2 weeks ago when he tried to claim the Orange institution was sectarian, simply because they didn’t allow Roman Catholics to join and discriminatory against women because the women’s lodge is a seperate lodge.

  • Prionsa Eoghan

    >>he tried to claim the Orange institution was sectarian< < Seriously?!?!? Wow! A right nutter him. >>and discriminatory against women because the women’s lodge is a seperate lodge.<< Never, If I wiz a wummin, well ah widnae want tae go in wi a bunch a hairy arsed sectarian bigots either. So ah suppose it is discriminatory not letting them that want tae go and be wi the men. Ye Gods!

  • Quagmire

    “tried to claim the Orange institution was sectarian, simply because they didn’t allow Roman Catholics to join”
    Posted by Ulsters my homeland on Jul 26, 2008 @ 12:17 PM

    UMH if I set up an organisation but didn’t allow Jews to join would that be anti semitic?

  • Ulsters my homeland

    >>he tried to claim the Orange institution was sectarian<< "Seriously?!?!? Wow! A right nutter him." Aye, he's a loony bin all right. Can't see his own intolerance for the want to label others as sectarian. Bonehead Feeney should look up the definition of sectarian!

  • Ulsters my homeland

    “UMH if I set up an organisation but didn’t allow Jews to join would that be anti semitic?”

    Nope.

  • USA

    As I recall Brian Feeney was an SDLP councillor for Belfast.

    Ulsters my homeland,
    If the Orange Order denies anyone (Catholics)membership based on religion then they are sectarian by definition and sectarian or racist organisations should have no respectable place in a pluralist democracy.
    Surely you guys have laws in place at this stage to make this kind of thing illegal.

    On the wider issue i’m wondering if Adams is waiting to see what concessions he can get from Robinson over the Irish Language, Policing, Maze etc.
    I really believe the Shinners are of the view that Robinson wants to avoid an election due to the TUV on his right flank. If an assembly election happens anytime soon a three way split in the Unionist vote may well result in Sinn Fein being the biggest party, therefore gaining the First Ministers position.
    The Shinners also know that they can have great success talking to the Irish and British governments if the assembly experiment fails. A type of defacto joint authority which last time up I felt suited the Shinners better in the short term than the Unionists in terms of getting legislation they wanted.
    I don’t think we are out to the woods yet, there are too many issues that are critical to Sinn Fein which are not yet resolved.
    I think the Shinners are prepared to stay in if Robinson shows flexibility but they know they have options, none of which I feel would hold much joy for Unionism.
    While Irish Robinson’s remarks serve to shore up support in unionist heartlands and reassure the evangelical backwoodsmen (and women), she continues to alienate “other” voters. I think this ultimately will have a detrimental effect especially in several close run assembly seats. I would not underestimate the power of the transfer under proportional representation in assembly elections. I would also think that slaggin off “gays” loses more votes than just practicing homosexuals. You will also insult their friends, collegues, family members etc. This can add up to a lot of votes that no successful political party can afford to lose.
    The fact that they continue to do such things just shows how far they have yet to come. Some of their members are so dumb they don’t even know when they just got a hammerin – heads in the sand lads.

  • picador

    Whatever happened to ‘British Rights for British Citizens’?

    Gaelic Act (Scotland)

    Welsh Language Act

  • picador

    Let’s try that again shall we

    Whatever happened to ‘British Rights for British Citizens’?

    Gaelic Act (Scotland)

    Welsh Language Act

  • Greenflag

    This Assembly is on it’s way to collapse . And the sooner the better . It was never going to work below the level of a Paisley and a McGuinness anyway . Roll on Repartition and be done with the NI undemocratic farce. It was a ‘nice idea’ but some political bridges can’t be crossed and there is an ocean between traditional unionism in NI and Irish Republicanism /Nationalism . We all just need to face the facts and put away the ‘insane’ dream of a UI or the even more insane dream of a 6 county NI ever becoming a ‘normal ‘ democracy .

    Peter Robinson does not stike me as having the cojones to keep the ‘forced’ coalition partners together . Chap can’t even keep his wife’s tongue from making NI once again the world capital of ignorance and stupidity masking as pentecostalist religiosity 🙁

  • I see you’re still having that old nightmare, Greenflag. Perhaps you should put the old nag out to grass 😉

  • rabelais

    Greenflag,
    I to have my doubts about the durability of the present accord. The Agreement increasingly looks like a holding position for unionism and republicanism while they re-consitute their historic dispute for new times. But re-partition? Would that settle it? I don’t think so. I regret to say that we might have to accept that some problems have no solution. Although I hope that Peter Robinson pays less attention to his idiot spouse and more attention to the Glasgow East by-election result. Labour will get a kicking at the next election and I don’t think the Scots are in any mood for two or three terms of being governed by Tories from Westminister. That’ll put the kaboosh on the Union.

    I wish one of the unionist/loyalist contributors to Slugger would address the question of Scottish independence. I’m genuinely interested in their opinions on this.

  • scotnat

    Good statement.

    The separation is closer than anytime in my life, sooner the better.

    8-10 years of Etonian Toryism will be a great strain – sceptically I doubt much of the pseduo unionist heartland of scotland would jump first time – depends on the push – but after a re-election of cameron – assuming he plows on pandering to the little england mentality that will and has emerged then a 50%+ vote on independence is certain.

    So for NI – you’ve got 10 years tops before UK is blown to smithereens…now try to imagine another 10 years of cross border progress that we have seen take place and espoused over the last 2-3 years (e.g. Ireland funding infrastarture in North examples roads, innovation schemes etc) and will a going be so hard – also generationally much of current politicos will be on their way out to grass…. 2020 – these islands will see three blocks scotland, ireland and a greater england with Wales still struggling to break free….

  • Scotnat, you seem to have overlooked the, er, significance of 2016.

  • Prionsa Eoghan

    >>Aye, he’s a loony bin all right. Can’t see his own intolerance for the want to label others as sectarian. Bonehead Feeney should look up the definition of sectarian!
    Posted by Ulsters my homeland on Jul 26 @ 01:19 PM

    Far be it from me to interfere with the lovely trip you are on Ulster ma man, but shouldn’t you learn what the definition of sectarianism yourself, and especially the context that it is being used in. I for one reckon it would expand your knowledge base considerably ;¬)

    Perhaps you could look up one dimensional whilst you are there also. Toodle pip the noo………..

    As far as impending Scottish independence. The most eloquent Unionist defence I’ve noticed yet is to stick their fingers in their ears and pretend it aint happening……………….but it is.

  • scotnat

    2016…indeed will come and pass but not too long thereafter…

    remember you’ve got political luddites to move forward..

  • billie-Joe Remarkable

    I’m sorry but having scanned for irony and sarcasm, I fear this comment: “…when he tried to claim the Orange institution was sectarian, simply because they didn’t allow Roman Catholics to join and discriminatory against women because the women’s lodge is a seperate lodge.” is actually a genuinely held belief.

    See how it works? 1. Dim as pigshit. 2. Regularly listens to Nolan to ‘inform’ his prejudices. 3 Comes onto slugger and spouts crap.

    The circle of ignorance is complete.

  • T.Ruth

    Who is Brian Feeney? -what qualifies him to pontificate on political leadership? Peter Robinson is the only leader capable of bringing us safely through the next five difficult years and helping those in all the parties effectively develop the political institutions.The Unionist community recognises and respects his ability.
    T.Ruth

  • “you’ve got political luddites to move forward”

    Some of them may not be that long out of nappies, scotnat, and they may may blunder into 2016 as did their predecessors in 1966.

  • slug

    Who is Brian Feeney? Brian Feeney is a respected historian, columnist and commentator, the author of a number of books, and on NI’s team for BBC Radio 4’s Round Britain Quiz, which is on at 11pm tonight, if you feel like tuning in.

  • Travis

    Can someone explain the meaning of the word ‘frit’?

    Brian Feeney:”What’s going on? Put simply in the words of Mrs Hacksaw to Neil Kinnock many years ago, the DUP is ‘frit’.”

    Here it is again:

    Brian Feeney:”Either way there’s a crisis. Sinn Fein are looking for a timetable for change from the DUP but the DUP are not able to give it because the senior members of the party are opposed to change and Robinson lacks the weight to go against them without splitting the party. He’s frit.”

  • 0b101010

    Can someone explain the meaning of the word ‘frit’?

    Frit = Frightened

  • Peat Blog

    Is Robinson a Mini-Brown?

    There are certain parallels: he was a former No 2 responsible for the purse strings in government; he became party leader unopposed and First Minister without an election; he craved power; and he’s dour.

    Apart from these it is probably too early to judge him. In his defence, the whole Stormont Administration seems incapable of making a decision and is comprised mostly of serial ditherers. Unlike Gordon Brown, Robinson is hardly under threat of a possible leadership challenge, and there isn’t exactly a rival party (yet) capable of challenging the DUP in the same way that the Tories can in GB (England). I haven’t read Feeney’s piece but think it’s probably a bit unfair.

    Sorry for staying “on topic” for once.

  • LURIG

    Brian Feeney is one of the most clued in political commentators on this island. He was in the Bear pit of Belfast City Council in the 1980’s when it was a Unionist monolith so he knows what he’s talking about. He has witnessed at first hand the raw sectarian bigotry that drives much of Unionist politics and he says so. That is why he has been so sceptical about the Stormont administration, particularly the DUP. While undoubtedly there are forward thinking people within the DUP there is equally a rump that just won’t consider sharing policing, justice and security roles with Catholics FULL STOP. It’s very difficult to see a solution to the current empasse. Giving such a role to the Alliance Party is just passing the buck and putting off something that has to be faced. I also think there are those within the Security Services who would’t be too unhappy for Stormont to fall; they too don’t want the Shinners, and even the SDLP, getting copy of Security matters.

  • feckit

    LURIG

    “I also think there are those within the Security Services who would’t be too unhappy for Stormont to fall; they too don’t want the Shinners, and even the SDLP, getting copy of Security matters.”

    Maybe Brian could join the SDLP again.

  • picador

    Alas, it will never happen but I would love to see Brian Feeney stand against Dodds as a nationalist unity candidate.

  • Ulsters my homeland

    billie-Joe Remarkable

    “I’m sorry but having scanned for irony and sarcasm, I fear this comment: “…when he tried to claim the Orange institution was sectarian, simply because they didn’t allow Roman Catholics to join and discriminatory against women because the women’s lodge is a seperate lodge.” is actually a genuinely held belief.

    See how it works? 1. Dim as pigshit. 2. Regularly listens to Nolan to ‘inform’ his prejudices. 3 Comes onto slugger and spouts crap.

    The circle of ignorance is complete.”

    I see you peddle the anti-Orange propaganda like your friend Feeney. Your intolerance of anything Orange and Protestant seems to give you the right to call the Orange Order sectarian.

    How can the Orange Order be classed sectarian when it welcomes all strands of the Reformed faith, from Presbyterians to Methodists?

  • Ulsters my homeland

    Prionsa Eoghan

    “[i]Far be it from me to interfere with the lovely trip you are on Ulster ma man, but shouldn’t you learn what the definition of sectarianism yourself, and especially the context that it is being used in. I for one reckon it would expand your knowledge base considerably ;¬)[/i]

    We have another one.

    Feeney called the OO sectarian, simply because they didn’t allow RC’s to join. That’s black propaganda which would be better suited in the early 1500’s when Rome declared Protestantism was a sect. It no longer is a sect. Likewise the OO is not a sect as it welcomes difference braches of Protestantism under it’s membership.

    People like you, billie-Joe Remarkable and Feeney would be better talking off their Spanish inquisition ropes and start living in the real world 2008.

  • billie-Joe Remarkable

    UMH.

    You have got to be messing around. You’re one of the guys who write outrageous, OTT sectarian letters to the Tele simply to see if they’ll publish them or not (invariably they do). I’m loving your work, mate.

    I haven’t made any comment on the Orange Order in this thread. Just a comment about the thick, ill-informed, idiots who don’t argue their case well. I’m not worried whether the post is pro or anti the Orange Order, just make it intelligent, short and if possible interesting.

    I fear I’m setting the bar a touch high for many around here.

  • Prionsa Eoghan

    >>That’s black propaganda which would be better suited in the early 1500’s when Rome declared Protestantism was a sect. It no longer is a sect.< < >>People like you, billie-Joe Remarkable and Feeney would be better talking off their Spanish inquisition ropes and start living in the real world 2008.<< Sorry Ulster ma man I've just worked out who you are. See it is so hard to tell the difference between you, concerned loyalist and peace and justice for Prods because you all repeat the same silly childish nonsense to the point I usually just zone out from the eedjits. But you are quite special, if I remember correctlyyou are the one who reads all the bunkum released by the Vatican so as to keep your eye on what the enemy is up to. The absolute and utter piss ie the quotes from you above kinda rung a bell. Anyhow Prodism is a sect, and just wait to I get my ropes I'll ensure that the Scottish inquisition makes the Spanish wan look like a rave at a wee free night oot. Maybe you can come and help as a priest, since Rome didnae want ye. Toodle ooooh the nooo. billie-Joe Best keep your posts irony free, I think the wonderful personality that is UMH just does not compute.

  • Ulsters my homeland

    “[i]I haven’t made any comment on the Orange Order in this thread. Just a comment about the thick, ill-informed, idiots who don’t argue their case well. I’m not worried whether the post is pro or anti the Orange Order, just make it intelligent, short and if possible interesting.

    I fear I’m setting the bar a touch high for many around here.”[/i]

    billie-Joe Remarkable, I meet folk like you every day, they’re middleclass 2:1 graduates who thinks of nothing else but their own self importance. You, as a self important piece of snot, have not shown how the Orange Order are sectarian. Therefore, you’re the ‘thick, ill-informed, idiot who don’t argue their case well’ LOL

  • Ulsters my homeland

    Prionsa Eoghan

    [i]”Sorry Ulster ma man I’ve just worked out who you are. See it is so hard to tell the difference between you, concerned loyalist and peace and justice for Prods because you all repeat the same silly childish nonsense to the point I usually just zone out from the eedjits.”[/i]

    Well then, Zone out dude…..

    “[i]But you are quite special, if I remember correctlyyou are the one who reads all the bunkum released by the Vatican so as to keep your eye on what the enemy is up to. The absolute and utter piss ie the quotes from you above kinda rung a bell.”[/i]

    It’s Feeney and the likes of yourself who spout piss.

    “Anyhow Prodism is a sect, and just wait to I get my ropes I’ll ensure that the Scottish inquisition makes the Spanish wan look like a rave at a wee free night oot. Maybe you can come and help as a priest, since Rome didnae want ye.

    Toodle ooooh the nooo.

    billie-Joe

    Best keep your posts irony free, I think the wonderful personality that is UMH just does not compute. ”

    WANKER

  • Ulsters my homeland

    [i]“Anyhow Prodism is a sect,”[/i]

    You plunker, Rodney.

    “[i]and just wait to I get my ropes I’ll ensure that the Scottish inquisition makes the Spanish wan look like a rave at a wee free night oot.”[/i]

    you’d do bigger things in yer knickers, Princess Eoghan

    “[i]Maybe you can come and help as a priest, since Rome didnae want ye.” [/i]

    Go home and play with the traffic, Feeney lover.

  • Reader

    USA: If the Orange Order denies anyone (Catholics)membership based on religion then they are sectarian by definition and sectarian or racist organisations should have no respectable place in a pluralist democracy. Surely you guys have laws in place at this stage to make this kind of thing illegal.
    Wouldn’t that make the Legion of Mary illegal too?

  • Prionsa Eoghan

    Reader

    Does the legion of Mary deny Catholics membership?

    Not a great time to come in I’d reckon, tacitly backing up some Vatican obsessed loon demanding that we prove that the OO are sectarian. Certainly wouldn’t have put you in with that crowd…………takes all sorts I suppose.

    Anyhow Ulster ma man, should you happen to live in the north of Ireland or indeed Scotland then perhaps you would realise that the sectarianism of this hate group is self evident. I can only assume that you are some wannabee fascist from the home counties who really doesn’t have the first clue about what they are on aboot. toodle oooooooh the nooooooo.

    ps. Which Vatican council edict was your favourite?

  • Rabelais

    Prionsa,

    I don’t like the OO (always importatnt to get your qualification in first I find when there is a ‘but’ coming)

    …but the fact that it’s a Protestant organisation doesn’t seem to me sufficient grounds in itslf for criticism. Many oganisations or groups have criteria for membership. To be a member of Women’s Institute requires you to be a woman. Practicing Satanist aren’t welcome in the Students’ Christian Union. Liverpool supporters are not welcome at the Stretford End, Old Trafford.

    The fact that the OO is pro-Prod is fine. The fact that there are significant sections of it that are anti-Catholic is reprehensible and that’s what I object to.

  • Prionsa Eoghan

    >>…but the fact that it’s a Protestant organisation doesn’t seem to me sufficient grounds in itslf for criticism.< < C'mon Rabelais get a grip man, I'm just demonstrating the absurdity of yer man's position. No-where have I nor would I criticise an organisation for being pro-Prod. I can't believe that having followed this thread you have me anywhere near where you seemingly have me. Perhaps you are reading me too literally, still I have not said anything close to where you have me. C'mon! >>The fact that the OO is pro-Prod is fine. The fact that there are significant sections of it that are anti-Catholic is reprehensible and that’s what I object to.<< Change the significant sections to Lock stock and barrel and I'm in 100% agreement. However let's be realistic, without the belligerence towards Catholics they become like, jeez they are so insignificant I can't even remember their name. The witje macawthem? no the knights of St. Columba, the other mob.......................anyhow ye get my message (hopefully)

  • Rabelais

    Sorry if I miss read you Prionsa.

    The manner in which the OO is criticised these days has become a particular bug-bear with me. You’ve propably seen the sort of thing… the Orange Order march on the streets and close the roads; the Orange Order sanction the lighting of big bonfires (and the burning of noxious rubber tires; the 12th of July encorages drunkeness…

    My answer to all these is so the fuck what. There is nothing intrinsically wrong with getting all youe mates round a big fire, singing songs, getting drunk and chasing women. And the following day marching about the city playing music, beating big drums and drinking more to delay your hangover. These are thoroughly enjoyable plebian pass times and I’ve enjoyed more than one in various combinations from time to time. No what is objectionable about the Orange Order are those sections that are anti-Catholic and socially conservative. Now on those grounds I don’t mind giving the OO a row.

    PS I don’t think the OO is entirely anti-Catholic. I know a number of Orangemen who find that sort of stuff as reprehensible as me. Alas, they think the OO is reformable and I think they are deluded, but hey, hope springs eternal..

  • billie-Joe Remarkable

    A 2:1 degree? I think you’ll find I’m a Dr.

    I was at the University of Mark Yourself and studied for the entire week of the course along with Big Ian.

  • Greenflag

    Rabelais ,

    ‘The Agreement increasingly looks like a holding position for unionism and republicanism while they re-consitute their historic dispute for new times.’

    Indeed . Eventually you will have Government by historic dispute :(. It will be a never ending sequence from one childish idiocy to the next childish idiocy so that both supporter’s groups can continue to believe that their side is ‘winnin’. It’ll be flags , language , religion , homosexuals, kerbstone colour, bonfires and marching seasons , St Patrick’s Day v July 12th in an all out annual continuing Kulturkampf for ever and ever Amen 🙁

    ‘ But re-partition? Would that settle it? I don’t think so.’

    It would put an end to the pointless politics of the present NI state in it’s present format and reduce the problem to a smaller ‘corner’ of NI.

    ‘ I regret to say that we might have to accept that some problems have no solution.’

    No we hust have to accept that there is no point in ‘waiting’ around for 30, 40 , 50 or 100 years for the ‘perfect solution ‘ which does not exist to ‘happen’.

    Repartition is not a perfect solution . But it would reduce the number of ‘politically alienated’ on this island from the 750,000 plus in the present set up or 850,000 in a UI to approx 200,000 divided equally on both sides of a new border or less than 4% of the island’s total population .

    ‘ I don’t think the Scots are in any mood for two or three terms of being governed by Tories from Westminister. That’ll put the kaboosh on the Union. ‘

    The last time the Scots were exiled to unimportance was during Thatcher’s time . This time around they at least have their Holyrood Parliament . So it won’t be a repeat of the Thatcher era exactly. As i said earlier I’m not ready yet to pull the plug on the Anglo Scot union. It’s a matter for the Scots anyway .We should steer clear of their decision either way .

    ‘I wish one of the unionist/loyalist contributors to Slugger would address the question of Scottish independence. I’m genuinely interested in their opinions on this.’

    Well you can’t blame them really -they have no interest in any kind of independence be it Scottish , Irish or even their own . They are or have become a ‘dependent ‘ people despite all the bullshit to the contrary that we hear annually circ July 12th.

    Believe me Northern Ireland’s nationalists and republicans would do far better by turning their backs to the present and future ‘powerless’ Stormont. It’s going nowhere.

  • Rabelais

    Greenflag,
    Just a couple of thoughts before bedtime…

    ‘I’m not ready yet to pull the plug on the Anglo Scot union. It’s a matter for the Scots anyway .We should steer clear of their decision either way.’

    I think the problem for Ulster unionists is that the possibility of Scottish independence is something they simply can’t steer clear off but seem to determined to avoid thinking and talking about nevertheless. Although I know some sections of loyalism are paying attention and I am told they consider it (privately) ‘disasterous’ for Ulster Prods.

    ‘Believe me Northern Ireland’s nationalists and republicans would do far better by turning their backs to the present and future ‘powerless’ Stormont. It’s going nowhere. ‘

    I’m coming around to your thinking on this, although I don’t think that there is anything inherently powerless about Stormont. Rather I suspect that neither side has any idea how to work it in any progressive and successful sense. Instead they’ll just make it unworkable by engaging in what they do best; arguing about language, culture, parades etc. It’ll eventually grind to ignominous halt one day but at least the DUP and SF will have the satisfaction of knowing that the failure of devolved governmemt in NI was all them’uns falt!

    Night, night.

  • Ulsters my homeland

    “A 2:1 degree? I think you’ll find I’m a Dr.”

    Dr. Gillian McKeith……Remarkable!

  • Seimi

    ‘billie-Joe Remarkable, I meet folk like you every day,’ – Ulstersmyhomeland

    Yeah? And what do you say to them? – ‘Do you want fries with that?’

    Hang on, I saw a ball somewhere round here….

  • another thread ruined

  • Steve

    back to the topic: A really unusual state ment from me 😉

    In three cases with parliamentary governments(if you can call Storomont parliamentary) I have witnessed the same occurence

    A charismatic leader with a strong number 2 raises to power, overstays his welcome so that when the number 2 takes the throne there is nothing left of the crown except ignominy

    Canada Cretian – Martin
    UK Blair – Brown
    nIreland Paisley – Robinson

    What makes Robinson a “mini” is that in the first 2 cases the leader ruled for more than 10 years, Paisley didnt even make 10 months

    Peter mini me Robinson, we hardly knew ya

    Seimi – I am Canadian so could we play hockey instead of hurley?

  • Ulsters my homeland

    [i]Yeah? And what do you say to them? – ‘Do you want fries with that?{/i]

    something wrong with that job, Seimi?

  • USA

    Reader,
    Your point is well taken and I had considered it. I feel all religious organisations are daft but I can see how some groupings have value to other people.
    The OO just appear to me to be a psuedo political org masquarading as a religious one. They are active in politics and their membership is rife with people who are anti Catholic, anti Irish and fond of violence. I feel they do not have a philosophy of tolerance which can be found in other organisations.
    I do believe that there are some OO members who are decent people but they are not in the ascendency and until then I would be in favor of holding the OO to task very rigorously.