United we stand- against abortion

Well, if the local parties can’t agree on much else, they’re united against abortion. Leading on this rare story of chiming unity, ( how right you are, my dear friend Gail) the Belfast Telegraph post-Troubles is reverting to a a comfortably conservative (complacent?) editorial line, homing in on commercially sensible consensus where it can find it. If I were a GB MP with my background, I would be very tempted to support Diane Abbott’s amendment. I strongly endorse a woman’s right to chose certainly up to 24 weeks, and believe that opinion north and south has yet to confront the issue seriously, preferring the emotional spasm and the pull of tradition on this as on so many subjects.This is Ms Abbott’s case:

“When it comes to abortion rights, Northern Ireland women are effectively second-class citizens,” she said.

“They don’t have the same rights as women in England and Wales and Scotland. They even have fewer rights than women in the Republic of Ireland.

“The main way if you want to have an abortion, you have to travel to the UK and get one privately.

“We think we have got a very good chance of getting the amendment through.

“There is a very clear majority in Parliament for a woman’s right to choose and we believe there is a majority to extend that to Northern Ireland.”

Essentially though, she’s bluffing. She and other left-wing MPs obviously ambushed the basically unbriefed Today programme with a political flanker designed to embarrass Gordon Brown over the alleged 42 days deal. As the Bel Tel rightly points out, the amendment is most unlikely to be reached when the Bill returns to the Commons in the autumn.

That doesn’t detract from the case itself though. It’s a perfect example of how conditional unionism is. As Diane grandly said in a quote not carried by the Telegraph: “This is not a delegated matter. The British Parliament has a right to legislate”.

A vote in favour would be a sharp reminder that the Assembly is subordinate and the will of the Northern Ireland people is not sovereign. Tempting.

I might be persuaded to reserve my vote, if guidelines were issued that allowed doctors and the Family Planning Association openly to help women obtain the right help outside our oh-so-virtuous little isle.

But what chance is there of that?

  • Concerned Loyalist

    If I were a GB MP with my background, I would be very tempted to support Diane Abbott’s amendment. I strongly endorse a woman’s right to chose certainly up to 24 weeks…………………………………………………………………………………..

    Murder is murder, Brian. You endorse a woman’s right to take away another human being’s basic fundamental right to live?

  • TAFKABO

    Murder is murder, but abortion isn’t.

    About time some of you realised that repeating something over and over doesn’t make it so.
    So my “loyalist” friend, exactly how loyal are you, if you don’t want women to have the sae rights across the UK?

  • GavBelfast

    Brian is right – the ‘elephant in the room’ is that England is a convenient dumping-ground for something that Ireland doesn’t want to confront properly.

    If a woman who has been raped, including as a victim of incest, doesn’t want to continue a pregnancy and to give birth to the product of such a trauma, no one should force her to.

  • Driftwood

    We are either part of the United Kingdom, with all that entails, or we aren’t. Transporting a problem to the mainland is a sweep under the carpet hypocrisy. Not often I agree with Diane Abbott, but she is spot on here.

  • billie-Joe Remarkable

    The parties unite on many issues when it suits them and they unite often for their own selfish ends. Begging Europe for money for example or shamelessly begging US businessmen to invest. And it’s hardly a seering political insight that conservative people will find common ground with other conservatives. This is a universal historical fact. (unless of course you aren’t very bright.)

    Could slugger STOP the fawning references to bog standard, written-in-an-hour articles by local hacks. “A brilliant article by. Superb analysis from…” It’s embarrassing and unnecessary. Bad enough that slugger gives awards to politicians for doing what they are supposed to do.

  • Bemused

    Superb post Billie-Joe. Utterly facetious article by Gail Walker – stinks of “I normally peddle dull, parochial shite with a miniscule dash of ‘witty’ sarcasm but I’m now going to write a ‘serious’ article about something ‘serious’ because I’m actually a ‘serious’ journalist don’t you know?”. Utter, utter horlicks.

  • The Raven

    “I might be persuaded to reserve my vote, if guidelines were issued that allowed doctors and the Family Planning Association openly to help women obtain the right help outside our oh-so-virtuous little isle.”

    That’s *still* a cop out. (I know you were only underlying a point, Brian)

    Ms Abbott is correct. Women here – whether it be this issue or many others – are still second class citizens.

    This “can’t do the time, don’t do the crime” mantra that the Pious hold on this island is frankly stomach-churning. To read some of what they write, you would think women were queued around the block, looking to commit genocide.

    Loyalist, do you think that any woman who finds themselves unwantedly pregnant, deliberately sets out to do so? Do you think there is a whole subclass of female society that goes out on a Friday night looking to get knocked up so they can have an abortion the next week? “I know! I’m bored of alcohol and cigs – think I’ll nip out this weekend and get up-the-duff, so I can endure this operation…it’s bound to be the next level of kicks”.

    I’m sorry if that was crass – but it’s no more crass than actually posting on a public forum, that abortion is murder.

    But crass is what has characterised this debate since it began.

  • fair_deal

    TAFKABO and Driftwood

    “So my “loyalist” friend, exactly how loyal are you, if you don’t want women to have the sae rights across the UK?”

    “We are either part of the United Kingdom, with all that entails, or we aren’t”

    The Union has three seperate legal systems (NI, Scotland and England and Wales) and while most laws apply across those three systems by no means all do. Devolution has and will continue to increase the degree of variation.

    The Union has never involved complete commonality of law in each of the three systems. Therefore a belief in the Union and a degree of local variation in law are compatible with british constitutional practices and traditions.

    The merits or otherwise of abortion and the degree of its availability are a matter for serious debate. It is not a proper or practical assessment tool for someone’s belief in the Union. There is an obvious temptation to link the issues if the GB position is your preferred outcome but a temptation I would suggest better resisted.

  • Bemused

    Excellent post FD, as clear, calm and accurate a description of the ACTUAL constitutional position as I’ve heard all week.

  • The frustrating thing about the responses to the amendment is that every single politician/pro-lifer who comments on it seems to genuinely believe they’re speaking for the entire population. They conveniently ignore the fact that more than 50,000 Northern Irish women have had abortions in the last 40 years. Most of those women will have told at least one person and many will have been accompanied by a partner/family member/friend. I doubt there’s anyone in Northern Ireland who doesn’t know someone who’s had an abortion – though plenty probably don’t know they know. I certainly didn’t until I became openly pro-choice.

    I’m utterly sick of these people claiming to speak for me. I wish they’d just hold a referendum – as much as I hate the idea of women’s rights being decided by a ballot, at least we’d know what ‘the people’ really want. Perhaps the politicians are afraid they wouldn’t get the overwhelming support they think they have…

  • fair_deal

    Bemused

    A first surely, us concuring?

  • Concerned Loyalist

    Joanne,
    As a woman I ultimately believe that you should have more of a say in the matter than me. However, the Father of the unborn child should be involved in the decision-making process too, which, in a large percentage of the cases, is just not the case.

    I am fundamentally opposed to abortion, full stop. However, if women feel they have no other choice but to have an abortion they should, as I’ve mentioned above, involve the Father in the decision-making process, because after all they were involved in the creation of the child too (obviously with the exception of cases of rape etc where the Father has no rights whatsoever).

  • Bemused

    Don’t think so FD – I seem to recall us seeing eye-to-eye on a couple of occasions (just a couple, mind) over the years!

  • Concerned Loyalist – I pretty much agree that the father should be involved (though obviously I don’t believe that he should be able to override the wishes of the woman) and I’ve never taken the view that abortion is solely a woman’s issue. I know if I were ever faced with an unplanned pregnancy, I would hope I wouldn’t have to make a decision alone and I think quite a lot of women would feel that way. But it depends on the individual circumstances and it works both ways – it wouldn’t be any better for a woman to be pressured into having an abortion against her wishes than to be pressured out of having one.

  • Peat Blog

    “The frustrating thing about the responses to the amendment is that every single politician/pro-lifer who comments on it seems to genuinely believe they’re speaking for the entire population.”

    Not just the entire population but also for the unborn feotus. Some of our MPs seem to communicate more with the unborn than with their own constituents.

  • wild turkey

    Utterly facetious article by Gail Walker – stinks of “I normally peddle dull, parochial shite with a miniscule dash of ‘witty’ sarcasm but I’m now going to write a ‘serious’ article about something ‘serious’ because I’m actually a ‘serious’ journalist don’t you know?”.

    Dead on Bemused.

    and now I go a bit off thread…

    The line in the Walker article that really got me though was

    ‘Those advocating so-called ‘integrated’ education.’

    Well, firstly I declare my bias. My kids go to an integrated primary school and benefit immensely.

    The use of the phrase ‘so-called’ has a certain Nixonian/McCarthyite ring to it which is offensive…but ultimately hollow.

    Opinion is opinion is opinion. We all them to a wretched excess but usually realise that they are just that, opinions.

    But at the end of the day the tirade of Ms Walkers articles confirms that ill-informed opinion is really the lowest form of human knowledge. It requires no accountability, no understanding.

    Whereas in the ‘so-called integrated sector’ it is a fundamental tenet that the highest form of knowledge is empathy, for it requires us to suspend our egos and live in another’s world. It requires profound, purpose-larger-than-the-self kind of understanding. Which Ms Walker clearly lacks.

    Then again, I am being harsh and lacking in generosity. Where I come from, Cabbage Dolls sat on store shelves and, on occasion, were purchased. Now in Belfast we can purchase a newspaper with articles that clearly indicate that, on occassion, a cabbage doll can put paws to keypad and…uh, enlighten us.

    Let us be grateful for small gifts.

    … And let us also be grateful that our political class, Jeffersonian giants all as representatives of the ‘will of the people’, ensures the primacy of life over the small change of liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

    … well at least as long as men do not get pregnant

  • fair_deal

    “I seem to recall us seeing eye-to-eye on a couple of occasions (just a couple, mind)”

    Keep the trend we will concur it is a rarity

  • The Raven

    Wild Turkey, come and stand for election where I live, please?

  • TAFKABO

    I’m not buying the argument about differences in legistaltion between different pars of the UK.
    These differences are normally fairly trivial matters, there is no other matter which creates such a fundamental difference in rights for people than the right to choose whether or not one wishes to carry a pregnancy to full term.
    As has been said numerous times before, this legislation is not even about preventing abortion, since none of those who support it have any real intention of stopping abortions, it’s about making women go to England to have an abortion, and that’s just mean petty vindictiveness, no more, no less.

  • Concerned Loyalist

    Concerned Loyalist – I pretty much agree that the father should be involved (though obviously I don’t believe that he should be able to override the wishes of the woman) and I’ve never taken the view that abortion is solely a woman’s issue. I know if I were ever faced with an unplanned pregnancy, I would hope I wouldn’t have to make a decision alone and I think quite a lot of women would feel that way. But it depends on the individual circumstances and it works both ways – it wouldn’t be any better for a woman to be pressured into having an abortion against her wishes than to be pressured out of having one.

    Posted by joanne on Jul 24, 2008 @ 10:30 PM…………………………………………

    Of course I agree with everything you say above, but I still don’t agree that abortion isn’t murder. I was actually quite undecided on the issue until I watched a video about abortion in Fifth Year I think it was, at my grammar school. Ok, it was a Protestant state school and the likelihood is that the Board Of Governors and Headmaster would want their pupils to be taught that abortion was wrong, but our R.E. teacher, a woman as it happens in her 20s, just put on the video and let us think for ourselves without prior pressure or influence.

    I can tell you, hand on heart, that EVERYONE in that class was opposed to abortion, with many of them feeling physically sick, after watching the real life abortion. It is the crudest, most vile operation I have witnessed, Joanne.

    Surely ANYTHING is better than the woman having to go ahead with such drastic and intrusive measures? Would adoption not be a more humane and moral alternative?

  • Damian O’Loan

    I can’t find a single poll on this issue relating exclusively to NI – can anyone help?

  • Eddie

    The man who couldn’t stop blogging

    Brian, after announcing a while ago that you were off on your holidays and wouldn’t be here…can you not stop bloggin’? This is a serious condition.

    I mean, after all, or, as they keep saying on Nolan “at the end of the day”….there are millions in China know nothin’ about any of a lot of these things you’ve been on about.

    So, relax, young man! Or, in the light of your increased garrulousness, should that be old man?

  • Concerned Loyalist – I wasn’t taught much about abortion at school, but I have two religious and anti-abortion parents, so I certainly wasn’t raised to think abortion was ever OK. I was pro-life until I was in my teens and it was actually an interview with Bernadette Smythe from Precious Life in the late 90s that totally changed my view of abortion.

    I watched her openly brag – I can think of no other word for it – about how she had convinced several young girls my own age (then 14/15) who had desperately wanted to end their pregnancies to change their minds. She spoke of how she showed them pictures and videos of aborted babies and told them how abortion would damage them for the rest of their lives. She simply would never give up until she had worn them down. This absolutely horrified me, and I couldn’t even begin to imagine what she’d put those already confused and vulnerable girls through and how for her it was never really about saving babies or helping women. It was almost terrifyingly competitive, as if she just couldn’t stand to ‘lose’. There was nothing moral about it, and it is still the most calculated display of bullying I have ever seen.

    As for adoption, well, I don’t think it’s the prefect solution pro-lifers like to make it out to be. Women have abortions not just because they don’t want to be mothers, but because they don’t want to be pregnant. Pro-lifers like to make light of pregnancy and claim it is nothing more than a temporary inconvenience that women should be willing to put up with. This, along with the assumption that it should be easy for a woman considering abortion to choose adoption instead because she’ll have no problems handing over a baby she didn’t want in the first place, only serves to further dehumanize women and reduce them to nothing more than walking uteri. You may consider adoption to be more humane for the foetus, but what of the woman? Do you honestly believe that, in the recent case of the 11-year-old Romanian girl who was raped by a cousin, became pregnant as a result and was denied an abortion by Romanian authorities, adoption would have been better than abortion?

    I don’t deny that abortion is an unpleasant procedure – I’ve watched the videos, I’ve had the more enthusiastic pro-lifers send me plenty of pictures. But still, when I think of the woman undergoing that procedure, and what she has been through to get to that point, I can’t ever bring myself to think that it could be anything other than her choice.

    (Sorry for rambling… :p)

  • Fair Deal

    “These differences are normally fairly trivial matters”

    Are discrimination protections and employment rights trivial? People here have extra rights that someone on GB does not

  • TAFKABO

    Are discrimination protections and employment rights trivial? People here have extra rights that someone on GB does not

    On reflection I’d say yeah, those are trivial matters, since most people in Europe have a raft of anti discrimination legislation they can call upon which amounts to the same thing.
    But back on topic.

    Can anyone here tell me what purpose is served by forcing women to go to England to have pregnancies terminated?

    Anyone?

  • Fair Deal

    “since most people in Europe have a raft of anti discrimination legislation ”

    Nice shuffle but we were discussing the UK

  • TAFKABO

    I hate to be the one to break it to you, but the UK is in Europe, hence the relevance of my post.

  • darth rumsfeld

    “So my “loyalist” friend, exactly how loyal are you, if you don’t want women to have the sae rights across the UK?”

    A puerile argument in this context.There are thousands of differences in the legal systems of the UK, including major ares of human rights law. Unless/until we have a unitary state with one legal system it’s perfectly reasonable to tailor local laws to local conditions- hence devolution.

    Of course cncerned loyalist might also be seeking a UK wide equality- abortion illgal throughout the kingdom

  • fair_deal

    “I hate to be the one to break it to you, but the UK is in Europe, hence the relevance of my post.”

    No really, how did I get ever get a B in geography?

    The debate was about the variations between the legal systems of the UK not European law, hence the nice shuffle to try and change the context.

  • http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/foyle_and_west/7525008.stm

    The main parties in Ulster are also against flying foreign flags.

  • Thanks, Joanne, for reminding us about the 50,000 NI children who might otherwise have lived. Sorry you are more offended by a “pushy” Bernie Smyth than by a death toll nearly 17 times that of the Troubles. Funny how the Right to Choose doesn’t extend to those most directly affected, i.e. the child.

    As for the 11 year old Romanian girl, yes, adoption was better than abortion because one act of evil is better than two acts of evil.

    I suspect that one day our descendants will wonder how this present society could have been so morally depraved to have shrugged off the deaths of so many.

  • Childrens rights

    Watchman, I couldn’t agree more. The idea that a woman has a right to do whatever she wants with her own body completely disregards the rights of the other parties involved in the situation, the child and the father.

    Even worse is the argument that no one is forcing anyone to have an abortion, so everyone should just leave the person who wants to have one alone. By that logic, I shouldn’t disagree with the war in Iraq because it’s not me who is killing innocent civilians.

    I’m all for individual freedom and women’s rights – but when it is not just the woman that is affected, it should not be that the woman has the only say.

  • The feminist idea that a woman should have sovereignty over her body, to the extent of treating the unborn child as a disposable commodity, strikes me as one of the most wicked notions produced even by our post-Christian society.

    We have so many laws regarding child protection, when the most vulnerable place for any child is the womb.

  • It’s a ‘throw away’ society

    it is a shame that a baby is seen as an inconvenience and then killed.

    abortion should be outlawed and the baby delivered and cared for by the state.

  • joeCanuck

    Would adoption not be a more humane and moral alternative?

    Would all the pro-lifers here please let us know how many children they have adopted, for other than infertility reasons.

  • Greenflag

    Tafkabo ,

    ‘Can anyone here tell me what purpose is served by forcing women to go to England to have pregnancies terminated?

    It provides extra revenues for the airlines and ferry operators /trains /taxis /English hotels etc etc who otherwise would not profit from the ‘forcing’ out of these women from both North and South to the UK.

    We need to look and see how a country like Holland (60% nominally RC and 40% nominally Protestant) handles the issue. A ban on abortions in all cases is inhuman. For foetal abnormalities and in cases where the mother’s life is in danger abortion should be provided by the NHS and the Irish Health service. It’s an emotive subject but surely it’s more emotive for the women who have to endure it . Perhaps women should have a referendum on the issue with men ‘abstaining ‘ voluntarily.

    Anyway why can’t people practice safe contraception . If you have a headache you take an aspirin . If women don’t want to become pregnant there are means to prevent conception – likewise if you are male and have at least fifteen brain cells you should know what to do !

    It’s not the 1950’s . The Dutch btw have one of the lowest rate of abortions in the EU . I think it’s because they ‘educate’ themselves in these matters and behave ‘responsibly’ to a greater degree than people do on these islands .

  • joeCanuck

    If this is a womens’ rights issue, and I believe it is, how can anyone possibly consider a referendum, even if it is limited to women?
    There are other issues, the death penalty being but one, where a referendum would likely overturn the decisions of elected representatives.

  • TAFKABO

    I ask again.

    Which differences in law between the constituent parts of the UK are on a similar scale to the denial of a woman’s right to choose?
    And again I reiterate, those areas of “rights” which are different are covered by European legislation, aking any differences in UK law pretty much irrelevant.

    All apart from this issue, which sets Northern Ireland well aprt from the rest of the UK.
    But not for long I suspect.
    The Troubles are over lads, welcome to the new reality, the rest of the UK is not afraid to cast its gaze on Northern Ireland and demand the same basic rights for all.

    Darth.

    You said: Unless/until we have a unitary state with one legal system it’s perfectly reasonable to tailor local laws to local conditions- hence devolution.

    Which local conditions make it necessary, not to deny abortions, but to force women to travel to a different part of the UK to have one?
    If MPs are opposed to abortion, why do they choose to outsource them, rather than ban them?
    Where is the courage of their convictions, if they think its murder, why aren’t they screaming from the rooftops that it must stop, full stop?

    I’d hazard a guess it’s simply cowardice.
    You’re all full of the bull when it comes to spouting off on a website about abortion, put those evil filthy whores in their place, eh lads?
    They had sex, they must be punished.
    But don’t kick up a fuss with the big boys acorss the water, don’t want to be showing ourselves up as the backward neanderthals we really are.

    Sanctity of life doesn’t take precendence over sanctity of appearances.
    We’re all against abortion, but we don’t want to talk about it.

  • The Raven

    “As for the 11 year old Romanian girl, yes, adoption was better than abortion because one act of evil is better than two acts of evil.”

    I umm don’t actually believe I read that. Hold on….yes…I did actually read that. Incredible.

    “Funny how the Right to Choose doesn’t extend to those most directly affected, i.e. the child.”

    Funny how the so-called pro-life option doesn’t extend to those most directly affected, i.e. the woman.

    “Even worse is the argument that no one is forcing anyone to have an abortion, so everyone should just leave the person who wants to have one alone. By that logic, I shouldn’t disagree with the war in Iraq because it’s not me who is killing innocent civilians.”

    No one is asking you not to disagree. I think ultimately they are asking you not to impose what you, WatchMAN, feels is best for any woman who chooses to have an abortion. Whether you like it or not as an argument, no-one is forcing any one to have an abortion. They are however forcing the legislature to consider providing a choice.

    “abortion should be outlawed and the baby delivered and cared for by the state.”

    Because the State has made such a good job of doing that in all cases….

    “I’m all for individual freedom and women’s rights – but when it is not just the woman that is affected, it should not be that the woman has the only say.”

    So, who’s opinion are we looking for then? Would you like a mediator? I am unsure what the point of that is – do you mean you can have individual rights as long as the individual doesn’t get to make a choice? Care to explain?

  • BfB

    Some facts to consider. From a country with some history of abortion. With the withering assault on religion in Ireland, it’s only a matter of time before you go after you’re unborn.
    The USA
    * In many areas of our country abortions actually outnumber live births.

    * 1,500,000 to 2,000,000 babies are aborted annually.

    * 98% of abortions are for reasons other than rape, incest, or the mother’s life.

    * 40% of abortions are performed on women who have aborted other babies previously.

    * One third of abortions are performed on teenagers without their parents’ knowledge or consent.

    * The heart of an unborn baby begins to beat at 18 days after conception.

    * 2 million American couples are waiting to adopt babies.

  • TAFKABO

    BfB left out perhaps the most important statistic of all.
    More than fifty percent of all conceptions end with the fertilised egg being destroyed before it implants in the womb.

    All a completely natural process.

    So, if conception is a mliracle, what does it tell us about God’s attitude to the unborn?

    I wont hold my breath waiting for an answer.

  • BfB

    Taffie,

    I get it. You’re the devil.
    Good luck with that.

  • TAFKABO

    Pleased to meet you, wont you guess my name?

    What did you think about the fact that most conceptions don’t even end with the egg implanting into the womb?
    Are they humans, all those naturally disolving little eggs?

    The majority of humans who ever existed, according to you, and they’re all aborted in a natural process ? I think we should be told you’re views on this one.

    And to end on another song.

    I don’t want to start any blasphemous rumours, but I think God’s got a sick sense of humour.

  • Danny O’Connor

    I have stated before on Slugger that I am pro-life,I would be surprised if the DUP hasn’t got some assurances from Brown in return for supporting 42 days detention.

  • Peat Blog

    “I would be surprised if the DUP hasn’t got some assurances from Brown in return for supporting 42 days detention.”

    Judging by this mornings papers Brown will be gone within 42 days. Somehow I don’t think any successor will pay much attention to the needs of the DUP.

  • Greenflag

    Bfb ,

    Thanks for the statistics and the ‘facts ‘ And there I was thinking that the USA was a god fearing -sorry – god terrified country.

    Have a look at the ‘socialist ‘ Dutch figures for abortion etc and compare . You’ll also find that the ‘unchristian ‘ Dutch don’t need to put behind prison bars the equivalent of 2 million of their population.

    Tafkabo has a point based on biological science . I agree that using ‘abortion’ as an alternative to proper contraception should be discouraged by society likewise late term abortions. As I said an emotive subject best not to mix up with religion . Jewish doctrine does not recognise a human ‘life’ until it is outside the womb so for them there is no such moral question re late semester abortion. Other religions have different standards . We live in a culturally and religiously diverse world so what should one expect .

    I hear that lame duck Pres Bush’s last action in the White House will be to mandatthat all gas stations play porn movies at the pump so that Americans can see someone else getting screwed at the same time as themselves.

  • BfB

    Greenie..

    Just getting in from an extended Sat evening?
    The further a society gets away from religion the more dumpster babies, crack head murderers, liars, thieves, and cheats you get. The facts support that.
    Deny and obfuscate as you are wont to do…..but the babies are getting marginalized (murdered) at an ever increasing rate. The devil is dancing, as the liberal, socialist, collection of societal rabble celebrate their ‘pro-choice’, ‘family planning’ agenda.
    Tsk, tsk.

  • TAFKABO

    Hmm.

    Let’s test the claims put forward by BfB by comparing the much celebrated golden Victorian age to the present day.

    More child brothels then or now?

    More child slavery then or now?

    More child abuse then or now?

    More infant mortality then or now?

    I’ll even go so far as to challenge our good friend BfB to tell me of a time when any of the above mentioned things was less than it is today.

    Take your time, no rush.

  • I against too