What Sarko really said

What Nicholas Sarkozy put to Brian Cowen was very different to the public back-slapping and schmoozing, according to the Irish Times, the only paper that seems to be on the inside track..
While most of the media were diverted by the row over Sarkozy’s alleged “The Irish must call a second referendum” remarks and the supposed affront to Irish sovereignty, Sarkozy was at it again – though this time in private.

From the Irish Times report:

Although the Government is now keen to postpone a resolution until after the European Parliament elections next June,
Mr Sarkozy proposed during private talks that a second poll should be held on the same day. Under the Sarkozy plan, which was made to Irish surprise, the strategy would be announced at the EU summit next December in Brussels.

The timetable is likely to meet with fierce resistance from other member states, particularly those who would lose MEPs if the Nice Treaty rules are used again.

In addition, each EU state would be guaranteed a European Commissioner, while Ireland would also get declarations – which have persuasive effect, but are not legally binding – on abortion, defence and other issues concerning Irish voters.

Furthermore, Mr Sarkozy made clear during a two-hour meeting with Yes and No campaigners that he does not want common EU corporation tax rates, though some common rules to understand the rates in place would be helpful.

While the future is still up in the air, pressure to hold a second referendum continues, if the Irish Times is right.

  • billie-Joe Remarkable

    *Gasp!* It’s almost as if these politicians say one thing in public and another in private.

  • Dave

    [i]The meeting between Mr Sarkozy and Yes and No campaigners at the French embassy substantially overran, and was highly praised by the Yes side afterwards, though opponents accused Mr Sarkozy of refusing to heed the Irish voice.

    Libertas founder Declan Ganley said: “The most worrying thing about this meeting is the fact that clearly the message is not properly being heard, perhaps not even being heard at all. We have said no.”[/i]

    Ganley is missing the point: it isn’t the EU who needs to listen to the Irish voters, it’s the Irish government and the leaders of the opposition. The EU can do sweet FA about it without ensuring that the Irish government will conspire with them to undermine the Irish democratic process, committing de facto treason against their own people. These blackguards need to be made to understand that their will be consequences for their own political careers if they call a second referendum. Ganley should consider forming a political party, since a clear alternative is needed to the main parties who support a federal Europe, beleiving they can pull an anti-democratic stunt because they got away with it last time and because they have a monopoly of political parties. If not, then SF need to step up a clear and present themselves as that alternative.

  • Dave

    * step-up a gear

  • Greenflag

    ‘The EU can do sweet FA about it without ensuring that the Irish government will conspire with them to undermine the Irish democratic process, committing de facto treason against their own people’

    So Dave – the Quisling hunter general and it’s all a German plot conspiracy merchant is at it again:( Nothing new to add except the same outdated stale notions of ‘national sovereignty ‘ which belong to the world of the late 19th century . It may have passed your attention but the most important problems facing the world today are those which can only be solved by nations ‘pooling ‘ their sovereignty such as the EU , IMF , SEATO , UN etc etc .

    ‘Ganley should consider forming a political party, since a clear alternative is needed to the main parties who support a federal Europe’

    I agree . Let’s see this Ganley for who he truly represents . Aided and abetted no doubt by the same shower of neo con nut jobs who have led the USA into it’s worst economic and political crisis since the Great Depression led mainly by a financial services sector which has placed corporate greed as it’s only civic ‘ethic’:(

    ‘then SF need to step up a clear and present themselves as that alternative.’

    It gets worse . On the one hand you want to see the Irish Republic ruled by an amalgam of neo con Iraqi war profiteers, and if that can’t happen you would like to see the country ruled by a party that has still not left behind it’s outdated Marxian dreams of an ultra left Socialist 32 county Republic ?

    The Irish electorate may have been confused over the Lisbon Treaty issue but they’ll make no mistake about booting any prospective electoral SF/Libertas ‘union’ into the Gobi shite desert where any such combination would belong . In any event SF have wised up and have put a long spoon between themselves and Libertas . They may not be the brightest at Governance but they have learnt to spot a far right nut job when they see one. Having the Le Pens of Europe and Austrian Neo Nazis in your corner would be like having Radavan Karadzic lead your country’s representation to negotiate EU membership !

    ‘These blackguards need to be made to understand ‘

    The so called blackguards you refer to were elected by 92% of Irish voters in the last general election . I’ve omitted SF as clearly they are not blackguards well not yet anyway through your neo con perspective .

    But if you are looking for a real blackguard the Serbian Government have found just your man and his arrest and trial at the Hague will help Serbia’s application for EU membership.

    ‘Alleged sightings of Karadzic were rare. He was said to be hiding in monasteries, disguised, shuttling among remote hideouts with the help of a network of loyalists.

    His arrest leaves two war crimes suspects still wanted by the Hague tribunal. But it should be enough to secure Serbia closer ties with the EU and possibly the status of EU membership candidate state this year.

    Mr Karadzic was indicted along with his army commander, General Ratko Mladic, for genocide at Srebrenica, where some 8,000 unarmed Bosnian Muslim males were rounded up, murdered and bulldozed into mass graves in July 1995.

    To conclude .

    ‘Libertas founder Declan Ganley said: ‘ We have said no’

    Ganley is not telling the whole truth . 27% of the Irish electorate said NO . 73% said either yes (24%) or did’nt vote (48%). There will need to be another referendum but before there is Mr Cowen needs to consider seriously a minimum electorate turnout requirement e.g 70% for any result to be considered valid and binding on the Irish State .

    We as a country do not need to have our economic and political future put at risk by extremists and vociferous minorities be they of the left or of the right which is what has unfortunately happened in this past referendum . Normally both extremes are at each others throats on 99% of issues . The fact that they joined ‘forces’ in this last referendum should have been enough of a warning sign to Irish voters .

    If Cowen loses a second referendum fought on a minimum turnout requirement then his Government should resign and let the nation be ruled by an SF/Libertas coalition .

    If there’s anybody left in the country after a year of such a coalition they can hope to try to apply to the UN for food aid and the IMF for help in changing the currency to the Zimbabwean dollar for that’s what it would be worth ! Alternatively they might want to consider asking Northern Ireland for economic aid and assistance with resettlement for large numbers of our population !

  • Sarkozy should keep both his zip and his mouth zipped.

  • Greenflag

    oswald murphy,

    ‘Sarkozy should keep both his zip and his mouth zipped. ‘

    Politicians are noted for not keeping either their zips nor their mouths zipped . It’s the nature of the species . Would you propose the same for Bush, Brown , Merkel , Putin , Berlusconi , Obama , McCain , Robinson , McGuiness etc etc etc ?

    I’ll agree that Sarkozy should probably have stayed in France rather than be seen to dropping in on Ireland to ‘sort out ‘ the natives .

    But it looked good on his ‘resume’ back in France where he’s not too popular at the moment

  • Wilde Rover

    Greenflag,

    “27% of the Irish electorate said NO . 73% said either yes (24%) or did’nt vote (48%).”

    That’s quite a spin you’ve got going there. I suppose “75% said either No or didn’t vote” wouldn’t have the same ring to it.

    “There will need to be another referendum but before there is Mr Cowen needs to consider seriously a minimum electorate turnout requirement e.g 70% for any result to be considered valid and binding on the Irish State .”

    And if there is a 60% turnout and a 60% Yes vote you wouldn’t consider that binding or a true refection of the wishes of the Irish people?

    “We as a country do not need to have our economic and political future put at risk by extremists and vociferous minorities be they of the left or of the right”

    I believe this was the argument against the campaign that led to the foundation of the state in the first place.

    “The Irish electorate may have been confused over the Lisbon Treaty issue”

    “The so called blackguards you refer to were elected by 92% of Irish voters in the last general election .”

    You seem to think the Irish electorate is senile when it comes to referenda but clued in when it comes to general elections. Also, going by your new statistical turnout method the last general election, with a turnout of 67.29%, accounts for neither 92% of voters nor enough of a turnout to justify the formation of a government.

  • Greenflag

    wilde rover

    ‘ And if there is a 60% turnout and a 60% Yes vote you wouldn’t consider that binding or a true refection of the wishes of the Irish people?’

    60% of 60% is 36% and half of 40% (assuming those who don’t vote are divided evenly between the Yes’s and No’s would bring the total to 56% YES and 44% NO. Even a 51% Yes Vote in a 60% turn out would give an overall YES but IMO having to have a 70% turnout would be a safer bet in order to protect our State from ‘minority’ rule .

    ‘I believe this was the argument against the campaign that led to the foundation of the state in the first place.’

    The EU is not the British Empire .There is no EU Army ‘occupying’ the Republic at this time.

    ‘ You seem to think the Irish electorate is senile ‘

    Do I ? Don’t get your knickers in a twist . Confusion is not to be equated necessarily with senility. If you believe as you have stated that that 490 million Europeans are ‘eunuchs’ this is not necessarily evidence that you are senile or confused but it’s a fairly clear indicator that you have achieved gobshite first class status 🙁

    ”going by your new statistical turnout method the last general election, with a turnout of 67.29%, accounts for neither 92% of voters nor enough of a turnout to justify the formation of a government.’

    Correct but then if you recall I never suggested a minimum 70% turnout for general elections but for referenda only . Based on a 67% turnout SF would then have achieved only 5% of the vote of the total electorate . Libertas will no doubt make up the numbers for an early 21st century Irish version of the 1930’s Molotov /Von Ribbontrop cocktail of false totalitarian promises !

  • Dave

    * shift-up a gear (mixed metaphor corrected.)

    Greenflag, try to introduce new angles into your trolling. Repeating the same deranged kindergarten propaganda and fallacies ad infinitum isn’t rousing. Thanks. 😉

  • Wilde Rover

    Greenflag,

    Yes, I do believe that as electorates they are ineffectual and powerless. The faces change but policy stays the same and their leaders are terrified of asking their opinion on the direction of Europe.

    If that makes me a gobshite first class then so be it.

    I believe they are powerless but you seem to think that if the Irish electorate answers a question in a way you don’t agree with then they are perplexed or bewildered.

    Condescend much?

  • Dave

    Wilde Rover, I quite like this Robert Mugabe form of democracy that the EU practices. In fact, I think it should be adapted to nullify the outcome of the last general election in Ireland. It’s clear that the electorate did not vote of core issues but, rather, voted along party lines, obsolete civil war divides, personality politics, which TD would get a pension for Voter A’s grandmother and backed a planning application for Voter B, etc. We should re-run the election until we are satisfied that every voter voted on issues that we actually in each party’s manifesto. If this means subjecting each voter to a detailed questionnaire and lie detector test, then sobeit. Since the outcome of the last election did not return a legitimate result and, ergo, a legitimate government, we must then accept that the government had no legitimate basis to support the Lisbon Treaty at all. Yes, this EU brand of democracy could be quite useful…

  • Greenflag

    Dave

    ‘ ‘Repeating the same deranged kindergarten propaganda and fallacies ad infinitum isn’t rousing’

    I’m glad to see you’ve recognised the need to take your own advice . Let me know when you find a few more Quislings and the whole of Europe is grateful for your revelations on the German conspiracy to ‘take over’ Europe via becoming a 15% minority .

  • Greenflag

    wilde rover ,

    ‘Yes, I do believe that as electorates they are ineffectual and powerless.’

    No more so than electorates elsewhere . It’s the nature of ‘centrist leaning policies’ from which even the UK cannot extricate itself . Look at the SNP in Scotland . Other than ‘independence ‘ are they left , right or tripping over themselves trying to stay in the middle ? Look at the DUP/SF combination of political weirdos from all ends of the political spectrum – pentecostalist wackos to ultra marxist loonies .

    ‘ The faces change but policy stays the same’

    True to a great degree – and in the main because it’s taken 20 years to devise and work or any alternative would require too much change -would cost too much and the public sector dependent civil service could not be trusted to either implement the changes needed or would more likely make a dogs bollix of it:)

    There are times however and now may be one of them when ‘drastic’ radical change is needed to resolve an economic or political crisis . The USA is the major example as of this time .

    ‘and their leaders are terrified of asking their opinion on the direction of Europe.’

    Not terrified -it’s just that most of these democracies don’t have ‘referendums’ as part of their democratic tradition. Whether they should or not is a matter for themselves just as it is for us . Call it practical outcome of ‘national ‘ sovereignty if you will .

    ‘If that makes me a gobshite first class then so be it.’

    Fine but don’t think you’re going to get away with a Darwin award . Dave is way ahead of you in that regard 🙂

  • Greenflag

    Dave.

    ”we must then accept that the government had no legitimate basis to support the Lisbon Treaty at all.’

    Problem being it was not just the Government that supported the Lisbon Treaty . So too did all the major opposition parties FG, Irish Labour , Greens , PD’s – Only 6 TD’s (SF) campaigned for a NO vote along with the ultra right neo con nutters of Libertas .