Orangefest – first verdict

How has the rebranding of the Twelfth come across to us exiles? “Work in progress,” is probably the safest verdict. It’s always hard for the interested abroad to judge how much real menace and threat lies behind the typical reports of rioting and injured policemen . I noted the attack on Rasharkin Orange Hall and it’s dangerous potential. The SundayTribune’s report Orange streets awash with booze and vomit concentrated on other forms of unpleasantness.

Twelfth fans will no doubt claim the the press were simply repeating the usual stereotypes.

The idea of Orangefest as explained by the BBC did not impress everyone in the client base for whom, as we know, change isn’t always easy
And Grand Master Robert Saulters, speaking at the Dromara field, can be said to be not entirely on message just yet
“It is sickening to us, following such dastardly attacks on our people for 35 years, to see the commanders of that enemy sitting in government today acting as politicians who care for the peaceful existence of the people.”

Those of us with long memories know that often ( if not always) those speeches are more ritual than reality. I suspect the lesson for the esteemed First Minister is ” not a bad roll-out, must try harder”.

And yes, I did get the message from the PSNI, that it was a mainly peaceful day.

  • Ulsters my homeland

    Suzanne Breen needs some antidepressants!

  • Ms Wiz

    Suzanne Breen: ‘The most popular item was a T-shirt declaring 10 reasons why it was better to be a Protestant than a Catholic.’

    This, I believe, perfectly encapsulates exactly what the Twelfth is all about.

  • Dave

    Ms Wiz

    For goodness sake get a life

  • Ms Wiz

    Can I get a t-shirt instead?

  • RepublicanStones

    Is it ok if i sell T-shirts explaining that the only reason there are protestants in Britain is because of the carnal desires of a fat ginger king? Would that be cool?

  • oberver

    #

    Is it ok if i sell T-shirts explaining that the only reason there are protestants in Britain is because of the carnal desires of a fat ginger king? Would that be cool?
    Posted by RepublicanStones on Jul 13, 2008 @ 08:53 PM

    go ahead, dotn forget to get the one that says that the only reason there are cathoics is because of a Roman Emperor who would kill you if you didnt accept his religion

  • joeCanuck

    the only reason there are cathoics is because of a Roman Emperor who would kill you if you didnt accept his religion

    Where there actually Catholics back then? I thought they were all just Christians.

  • Taff

    It is worrying that Orange parades continue to cause civil disorder, most notably the injuries inflicted on the police in Portadown.

    But a further concern for us living in Britain is the fact that footage of this was not shown on BBC television; it was merely alluded to in passing.

    Is it any wonder that we are so ill-informed about Northern Irish affairs over here?

  • A wonderfully colourful cultural paegant of Fenian hating and catholci baiting (bating?).
    It never ceases to amaze me how anyone could take the slightest offense……………

  • LURIG

    Historically speaking you couldn’t argue with RepublicanStones. The Anglican/Church of England ‘faith’ has NO Christian foundations as a Church and is NOT based on any REAL theological differences with Rome. It’s roots are indeed in Henry VIII’S pants and they made it up as they went along. Henry’s terrorists destroyed much of England’s old Christian and Monastic heritage and even to this day there are Catholic pockets of Northumberland and Lancashire that are VERY VERY hostile to the Church of England; no wonder as it wrecked most of those counties. As we are witnessing at the minute with the annual Anglican gathering it is a mixed up pot-purri pantomime of a ‘Church’ based on NO sound teachings or ideology. Lambeth puts it’s left leg in ,left leg out, does the hokey cokey and then turns around ON Gay Bishops/ Women priests etc. It is a Church dying the death of a thousand disagreements. Say what you want about Rome but you know where you stand. The Roman Catholic faith doesn’t change to suit an immoral modern world AND rightly so. Is it any wonder 1000’s of Anglicans are switching back to Catholicism which they see and now realise is indeed The One True Faith? Many Anglican scolars and clergy can see the writing on the wall and are desperately pushing for reunification with Rome before the Anglican Church fully disintegrates. When it inevitably comes it will be on Rome’s terms TOTALLY!

  • Pete Baker

    Brian

    Given the confusion described by Taff, perhaps it would be worthwhile being more specific about the attacks on the police.

    As in your linked Observer report, on the Portadown attacks.

    Thirteen officers suffered injuries, with four needing hospital treatment, in violence that police said was largely nationalist inspired. Two men were arrested and a 26-year-old charged with riotous behaviour.

  • Pete Baker

    There were also reports of arrests after petrol bomb attacks on police and fire crews on Saturday night in Enniskillen.

  • picador

    Given the tendency of the police to act in a partisan manner on occasions such as this it is perhaps timely to record the long-established tendency of the police to issue information which is downright misleading and / or far from complete.

    Any word yet on a motive for the petrol bomb attack on the Catholic-owned bar in Rasharkin?

  • roger

    Could someone from the Orange Order explain why they are happy to parade behind banners celebrating uff terrorist murderers?

    Are they unaware that Joe Bratty was a terrorist?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Bratty

  • Mark McGregor

    I assume Unionists will now quit their bloody yapping over the Provisionals using replica firearms in their demonstrations?

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/26326001@N08/2661077507/

  • Eddie

    Taff said:
    It is worrying that Orange parades continue to cause civil disorder, most notably the injuries inflicted on the police in Portadown.

    But a further concern for us living in Britain is the fact that footage of this was not shown on BBC television; it was merely alluded to in passing.

    I say:
    Taff, is every injury inflicted on police in England shown on television. Get a sense of proportion

  • Brian Walker

    Pete(11)
    “Given the confusion described by Taff, perhaps it would be worthwhile being more specific about the attacks on the police”

    Agreed, on reflection, better to have highlighted the point. But I wanted to understate- there being little need, I thought, to bang a drum.

  • Eddie

    It was “merely alluded to” in your words – what you mean was it was REPORTED on national tv! Some people you can’t satisfy.

    Also- that rant above, can’t remember from whom – about everybody coming over to the “one true church” ignores the priests going the other way because of carnal/romantic/human desires, or whatever you want to call them

  • Pete Baker

    Brian

    “Agreed, on reflection, better to have highlighted the point. But I wanted to understate- there being little need, I thought, to bang a drum.”

    In most circumstances I would agree. In this case, given the readiness of some to embrace a pre-determined conclusion, I’d argue the more information the better.

  • HeadTheBall

    “…the carnal desires of a fat ginger king….” (RS)

    Henry VIII died a sound Catholic. He did not change Church doctrine a jot, just its top level of management. The growth of Protestantism in England had much more to do with his daughters Elizabeth, a convinced Protestant, and Mary, from her happy practice of burning Prods at the stake (signing the last 2 death warrants on her own death bed, IIRC).

    Thanks BTW. I can now see that your virulent Nationalism is only a veneer for an even more virulent anti-Protestantism.

    LURIG

    Remind me how many ordinands Maynooth produced last year? The angst of a few English Anglicans is neither here nor there. We are mainly Dissenters (in NI). The growth of Christianity is nowadays mainly in Africa and S America and, I believe, strongly Protestant.

  • No sign of Diamond Dan at the Belfast parade. No one dressed up as a super hero, no one carrying anything looking remotely like a cartoon character.

    So much for the new look!

  • Crow

    As a southerner and one who would like to see Irish unity, I recognize the need to reconcile with, if not embrace, Orangeism. It is not going away, you know. I just wish it was not so stridently exclusive. I can see many positives; defenders of civil and religious liberties, promotion of christianity, even it’s considerable charitable work. It is also a uniquely Irish institution and in the broadest sense a cultural asset. I really have no issue with it being a pro-protestant institution, I just wonder why it has to be so fervantly anti-catholic.

  • LURIG

    Indeed HTB as a Catholic I am under NO illusions about the challenges facing ALL Christian denominations particularly the problem with Catholic vocations. Eddie, my comments were solely about the Anglican faith and the remark about ‘The One True Church’ was NOT meant as a rant, boast or even my opinion. This was in the context of how many within the wider Catholic faith view Rome, not how I see it. Many other Protestant sects ALSO look down on Lambeth as NOT REALLY Protestant. Of course most of the Unionist community within the North are dissenters whose differences with Rome WERE Scriptural, doctrinal, theological and Bible based. There is a lot of this I can empathise with as I am not comfortable myself with aspects of my own religion. I have no problem with those who perceive religion as solely between them and God. Some of the rituals I can also do without within the Catholic faith. These differences however would appear to be miniscule and irrelevant within the context of a threatening spread of Islamic fundamentalism which seeks to destroy ALL Christianity AND bring Sharia Law to the West. Now there is something to REALLY worry about!

  • RepublicanStones

    ‘The growth of Protestantism in England had much more to do with his daughters Elizabeth’

    And who was her father? A fat ginger king perchance?

  • S. Kelly

    Yes Alan, no Diamond Dan, but did my eyes deceive me or did I see in the paper this morning, a member dressed as an RUC man with sash and gun??? I’ve heard of irony, but this is ridiculous…

  • 6countyprod

    Taff, my good man (or woman),

    Orange parades are not the problem.

    The nationalists of north Portadown will just never be satisfied. They have succeeded in forcing almost every Protestant/Unionist/Loyalist family from the entire district from the old Corcrain railway bridge to the bridge near Park Road; they have succeeded in stopping the march to Drumcree church from going down Obins Street; they then succeeded in stopping the parade going down Garvaghy Road. What more do they want?

    Now they want to create a situation where they can make demands for a bonfire which take place outside their ghetto to be halted because of the violence they claim it brings.

    They fulfil their own prophecies in their insatiable lust to deny others the right of expression.

  • Mark McGregor

    S.Kelly,

    You sure it was an RUC man with gun? I added a link to a RIR/UDR man with gun and sash earlier (scroll up). Though my focus was more on the complaints from Unionism when the provos had fake RUC/UDR/UVF men carrying replica guns in their parade:

  • S. Kelly

    Mark,

    There was definatly an RUC man as well; there was a picture in the Sunday World of him and the one in desert camoflage (in your pic) on a float. Plus I understand it was commented on in the UTV coverage of the parades on saturday night

  • 0b101010

    Say what you want about Rome but you know where you stand. The Roman Catholic faith doesn’t change to suit an immoral modern world AND rightly so.

    These differences however would appear to be miniscule and irrelevant within the context of a threatening spread of Islamic fundamentalism which seeks to destroy ALL Christianity AND bring Sharia Law to the West. Now there is something to REALLY worry about!

    Wait, wait, LURIG, is unshifting Abrahamic religious fundamentalism good or is it bad? I’m getting confused here.

  • Supdoc

    Obins street Portadown has to be the most depressing street I’ve ever seen and after reading some of it’s history I now know why.

    ………………………………………………………………………………………………….
    By 1972, the communal situation was so bad that there were serious doubts about whether the Drumcree Church parade could go ahead. In late June the UDA had erected barriers in estates close to Portadown and tension in the Obins Street area was very high, there having been ‘mini-riots’ in recent months. Eventually bulldozers cleared away barriers that had been put up in Obins Street on the Sunday morning and CS gas was used to disperse rioters. When the disturbances had subsided an apparently larger contingent of Orangemen started their parade. However, they were led by a group of at least 50 UDA men who proceeded to stand on either side of the Road up until the tunnel and who promised police they would go on through if one shot were fired. It has been suggested that this intervention was not at the bidding of Orangemen, and that the UDA, a legal organisation in the 1970s. appeared from the other end of town.[22] However, not surprisingly this show of strength and the apparent threat of 3,000 available UDA men led to both the Official and Provisional wings of the IRA threatening to stop Twelfth parades going down Obins Street, warning the UDA that they would not be allowed to repeat such actions. Whilst the parades on the Twelfth and Thirteenth passed peacefully, there were three men shot dead in Portadown on the morning of the Twelfth and later that month there was a bomb in Woodhouse Street (Provisional IRA), a bomb in a local Catholic church (Loyalist paramilitary), and a gun battle in the Obins Street area involving, it would seem, members of the IRA, UDA and subsequently members of the security forces to ‘clear out IRA nests’
    ………………………………………………………………………………………………….

  • Cillian

    Don’t forget, Islam is a religion of peace!!

  • McGrath

    There are lower classes in every society in the world, and I have witnessed much in various countries. The lowest of the low seems to exist here in NI, the piss strewn and vomit spewed streets in primarily Belfast and various other major parade routes is not limited to the 12th of July, it is replicated in large part on the 17th of March and many other dates in NI.

    The permission of public consumption of alcohol and acceptance of drunkenness and other socially depraved behaviour is the common denominator.

    Asking the PNSI to enforce the law, when the majority of society disregard the law will have a predictable outcome. Until society changes, the law cannot be enforced.

  • LURIG

    ob101010,

    I am one of the few Catholics that openly says that the spread of Islamic Fundamentalism IS the greatest threat facing the Western world; that is NOT to say that ALL Muslims are A threat. That would be like equating ALL English football fans to hooliganism, ALL Protestants are bigots OR ALL Catholics supported the IRA. However we CANNOT play the PC game forever and remain silent on our views even if they offend people.

  • 0b101010

    Ah, so the spread of unshifting Abrahamic religious fundamentalism is good when it’s Catholicism and bad when it’s Islam? I’ll write that down on a Post-It in case I’m ever in need a zealously blind moral absolute.

  • Earnan

    Catholic doctrine doesn’t tell you to kill non-believers

  • ben

    The *press* repeating the usual stereotypes? Like it’s the fault of the *press* that the usual stereotypical thugs go on their usual stereotypical rampage for God and Ulster?

  • HeadTheBall

    “And who was her father? A fat ginger king perchance?” (RS)

    Yes but, and I recognize that this may come as news to you, her Dad wasn’t a Protestant but a sound Catholic. How do you think “Fidei defensor” got on to the British coinage, for example? If Charles V of Spain had not been holding the Pope of the day captive in Rome, Henry would have got his annulment (why not, he was the richest prince in Europe with some of the best legal minds at his disposal) and remained a dutiful son of the Church. Protestantism would have advanced anyway, albeit by a different route (viz Scotland).

  • cynic

    “The Anglican/Church of England ‘faith’ has NO Christian foundations as a Church and is NOT based on any REAL theological differences with Rome. ”

    …. tell that one to the Pope

    “Given the tendency of the police to act in a partisan manner on occasions such as this …”

    ………. yeah, of course they do. Secretly they are all waering collarettes under their jumpers while they head those stones and arrest those drunks. Even the Catholic members have been mande honourary members of the OO. I have it on good authority.

    “It is worrying that Orange parades continue to cause civil disorder”

    …… but they have a right to march so was the disorder casued by them and their followers (sometimes) or those who didnt want them to exercise their human rights and why dont you condemn the latter too?

    “Many other Protestant sects ALSO look down on Lambeth as NOT REALLY Protestant”

    …of course they do. Lambeth is the Anglican church conference. Proddies have a choice of several different churches with different doctrines. All that freedom of thought leads to a heady concoction and some of the differences between the ‘sects’ may be as big as those with Rome, emotionally if not intellectually.

  • “I just wonder why it has to be so fervantly anti-catholic”

    Crow, there is a mixture of action and reaction.

    The OO, like the GAA, has religious, political and cultural elements. Both are a product of time and place and their roots go back a very long way. Neither hold much appeal for me but I can see and understand some of the things that make them tick.

  • POL

    #

    No sign of Diamond Dan at the Belfast parade. No one dressed up as a super hero, no one carrying anything looking remotely like a cartoon character.

    So much for the new look!
    Posted by Alan in Belfast on Jul 13, 2008 @ 11:24 PM

    Wrong alan they all look like cartoon characters.

  • RepublicanStones

    ‘Yes but, and I recognize that this may come as news to you, her Dad wasn’t a Protestant’

    Who said he was, i merely said the carnal desires of a fat ginger king was responsible….i suggest you go back and start again. Are you inferring the fat ginger had nothing to do with protestanism coming to britain?

  • james orr

    RepublicanStones on Jul 14, 2008 @ 09:57 AM:

    The clincher for the success of the Reformation in Britain was Scotland, not England. The Scottish Reformation was primarily religious and of the people, then became political. The English Reformation was the other (wrong) way round.

    I think you’ll find that Protestant movements were springing up in Britain at least 100 years before “fat ginger”.

    As a starter, Google “Paul Craw” – the Czech protestant burnt at the stake in St Andrews in 1433

  • Comrade Stalin

    LURIG,

    If the RC church doesn’t change to suit an immoral world, then what was Vatican II ? It sounds like 1960 really did pass you by. A quick summary : you can eat meat on Fridays; you’re allowed to like Jews; and getting on with other Christians who aren’t Catholics is positively encouraged.

    These differences however would appear to be miniscule and irrelevant within the context of a threatening spread of Islamic fundamentalism which seeks to destroy ALL Christianity AND bring Sharia Law to the West. Now there is something to REALLY worry about!

    What exactly is wrong with Sharia Law ? Other than that it comes from people with different coloured skin who talk strange languages and cook funny foods. I’m not advocating it, but I can’t see why it’s necessarily worse than what we’ve already got here.

    Your rant reminds me of the unionists who used to talk about how ending the union would result in everyone being enslaved by Rome. It’s bigoted bullshit. It’s not going to happen, get over it. Sharia law isn’t coming to the West.

    I am one of the few Catholics that openly says that the spread of Islamic Fundamentalism IS the greatest threat facing the Western world; that is NOT to say that ALL Muslims are A threat.

    Ah yes, as the old Reverend Doctor used to say, I hate the church but I love every one of them. Don’t try to cover up your prejudices with this rubbish. How on earth is Islamic fundamentalism – which is an idea – a “threat” ?

    If you want to argue that the people attempting to enforce Islamic fundamentalism using terrorism is a threat, that’s fair enough, but it’s not the same thing. Like I said, your claims are identical to the nutty fanatical unionists who claimed that the IRA were emissaries of Rome.

    The point where we need to get to is where everyone agrees that, while everyone must have full and equal rights to worship their religion as they please, religion has no place in government or in the law. This way there can’t be an argument about whose faith decides things in the courts.

    To me, an attempt to enforce ancient Sharia law, Old Testament law or any other kind of religious based law on society here would be a call to arms since it would be a fundamentally oppressive restriction on human liberty. I don’t think it’s going to happen, though. There just aren’t enough people who give that much of a shit about God. Sorry, it’s just old hat.

    However we CANNOT play the PC game forever and remain silent on our views even if they offend people.

    What PC game are you talking about ?

  • POL

    Underage and on-street drinkers met with a “robust approach”, he said.

    Any evidence to prove this.

  • POL

    They fulfil their own prophecies in their insatiable lust to deny others the right of expression.
    Posted by 6countyprod on Jul 13, 2008 @ 11:52 PM

    Not at all 6county, march where you are welcome and burn what you want as long as its not as close to an area where offence can be taken. For example why have a bonfire on the peaceline if not to cause offence.But trying to present this (WITH THE HELP OF THE BBC)as a day that everyone enjoys is a joke.
    Get drunk piss and vomit all you want, just dont do it where its not welcome.

  • Ulsters my homeland

    As for the rebranding of the Twelfth, it obviously wasn’t accepted by those in Rasharkin, because not only did they attack the Orange Hall on the 11th, place a hoax bomb on the morning of the twelth, but they also went to the 12th field after the evening parade and attacked the Orangemen, women and children.

    Where are the media?

  • picador

    Agreed POL,

    The reporting of the trouble in The Tunnel in Portadown and the New Lodge in Belfast failed to make reference to the fact that provocative loyalist bonfires featuring burning of tricolours and playing of music glorifying paramilities / excoriating Catholics were being held only a few dozen metres distant from nationalist areas.

    Craigavon council saw fit to finance the Edgarstown ‘event’ but I’m not sure whether BCC financed the Tigers Bay boney.

    Common sense dictates: do not march where you are not welcome; and don’t hold bonfires near peacelines.

  • Ulsters my homeland

    Picador, do you support the actions of those Republicans in Rasharkin who attacked the Orangemen, women and children in the parade field, after the evening parade?

  • james

    Strange that the BBC coverage of the 12th made no mention of the growing number of lodges who marched behind banners honouring uff & uvf terrorists.

    Plenty in Belfast & Derriaghy.

    In Derriaghy one lodge marched behind a banner commemorating uff leader John McMichael & another marched behind a banner remembering uda commander Jim Guiney.

    Belfast had the usual lodges marching with the banners of Joe Bratty, Sam Rockett, Brian Robinson, Noel Kinnier etc….

    Does the Order have a policy on this type of terrorist commemoration?

  • Moochin Photoman

    POL……
    Here’s evidence of a robust approach to the street drinking.

    I watched the group of PSNI officers outside the BBC for about 10 mins and whilst they weren’t that vigilent, they did take any open can and bottles that they saw. They got quite a bit of abuse “You Black Bastards whatcha takin that aff me for” which was quite ironic.
    Speaking to a couple of the officers they told me that there were groups of them dotted along the route enforcing the street drinking legislation.
    I think in years to come we will see less and less of it as the realisation will sink in that it will be taken off them.
    It’s a start and one that we should be encourage.
    I thought that the day went well tho not that well for these motorbike cops

  • picador

    umh,

    Out of curiosity where did you ‘celebrate’ the Twelfth? Also are you in one of these bands? Don’t be coy.

    Splitting hairs maybe but I wouldn’t call the people who did this republicans.

    I completly understand the anger of people in Rasharkin at the arrogance and triumphalism of loyalists but I would not condone this type of behaviour. It sounds like a good old Irish eighteenth-century faction fight as portrayed by Punch magazine – demeaning to all concerned.

    There is a definite problem with parades in Rasharkin but so far the Parades Commission has bottled it.

  • Ulsters my homeland

    “[i]Out of curiosity where did you ‘celebrate’ the Twelfth? Also are you in one of these bands? Don’t be coy.”[/i]

    That would be no business of yours.

    “[i]Splitting hairs maybe but I wouldn’t call the people who did this republicans.”[/i]

    some would say the same of IRA/Sinn Fein. It’s a good cop-out.

    “[i]I completly understand the anger of people in Rasharkin at the arrogance and triumphalism of loyalists but I would not condone this type of behaviour.”[/i]

    I take it you mean the display of loyalist memorabilia like the UDA/UVF as being arrogant and triumphalism, or is there more?

    “[i]It sounds like a good old Irish eighteenth-century faction fight as portrayed by Punch magazine – demeaning to all concerned.”[/i]

    demeaning to the victims?

    “[i]There is a definite problem with parades in Rasharkin but so far the Parades Commission has bottled it.”[/i]

    What is the definitive problem in Rasharkin? (I take it you know it’s past history of parades and community relations)

  • picador

    ”Out of curiosity where did you ‘celebrate’ the Twelfth? Also are you in one of these bands? Don’t be coy.”

    That would be no business of yours.

    Maybe it’s not but you could still tell me. What is there to hide umh? After all I thought you were meant to be proud.

    ”Splitting hairs maybe but I wouldn’t call the people who did this republicans.”

    some would say the same of IRA/Sinn Fein. It’s a good cop-out.

    Fair enough but my point remains. Setting about a bunch of Orangemen with hurley sticks does nothing for liberty, equality or fraternity.

    Incidentally, today is the 219th anniversary of the storming of the Bastille.

    ”I completly understand the anger of people in Rasharkin at the arrogance and triumphalism of loyalists but I would not condone this type of behaviour.”

    I take it you mean the display of loyalist memorabilia like the UDA/UVF as being arrogant and triumphalism, or is there more?

    I think the tensions in this village arise to a large extent from the Ballymaconnelly band parade and all that comes with it. I appreciate that the Twelfth is a bit more ‘restrained’ but nevertheless some of the same parties will have been involved.

    ”It sounds like a good old Irish eighteenth-century faction fight as portrayed by Punch magazine – demeaning to all concerned.”

    demeaning to the victims?

    I think the whole situation is demeaning full stop.

    ”There is a definite problem with parades in Rasharkin but so far the Parades Commission has bottled it.”

    What is the definitive problem in Rasharkin? (I take it you know it’s past history of parades and community relations)

    I am aware of the problems in the past in this village and in the north Antrim area. I would say that the problem is the determination of the loyalists to impose themselves on Catholic people in Rasharkin and that the band parade is the worst manifestation of this.

    I would defend the right of Orangemen to parade in Rasharkin provided they do so in a manner which respects the dignity of all. I believe that the residents are amenable to this.

    I am not from Rasharkin and indeed I have never been there though I have followed what has gone on there down the years and researched the matter extensively on the Internet.

    I protested (successfully) against the Tour of the North parade several years ago and I am in complete solidarity with those in Rasharkin who ask to be shown a basic level of RESPECT.

    So there’s my story. What’s yours?

  • HeadTheBall

    repubicanstones

    “Who said he was, i merely said the carnal desires of a fat ginger king was responsible….i suggest you go back and start again. Are you inferring the fat ginger had nothing to do with protestanism coming to britain?”

    Sincere apologies for the delay in responding to your post. We are in very different time zones.

    OK let’s, as you suggest, start again. Henry’s son Edward VI was succeeded by his sister Mary. The English historian G M Trevelyan neatly summed up the mood of the English people at her succession as “Catholic, nationalist and anticlerical”. “Catholic” because they were content enough to worship God much as their fathers had always done, “nationalist” because of the newly emerging post-mediaeval sense of “Englishness” and “anticlerical” because they had had too much of over-mighty priests (Wolsey, et al). The first factor, coupled with the religious disturbances of Protestant Edward’s reign, gave Mary a real chance of returning England to the Catholic fold. She blew it by, firstly, handing over the spiritual governance of her people to Spanish and Italian prelates and, secondly, proceeding to burn some 400 Prods, mainly for their desire to read the Bible in their own tongue. Pace James Orr above, this was one of the sparks that set Protestantism alight in England (“Fear not Master Ridley … for this day we shall light such a candle in England as, by God’s grace, shall never be put out”).

    “Are you inferring the fat ginger had nothing to do with protestanism coming to britain?”

    Of course not. But you have chosen to ignore completely the question: Had Henry been able to buy his annulment from Rome as heaps of people had done previously (Margaret of Denmark, etc) how would this have affected the Protestant revolution? Little more, I suggest, than the history of the Vatican would have been affected by “the carnal desires” of the Borgias.

  • Henrythe8thiamiam

    I am Henry the 8th i am, Henry the 8th i am i am, i got married to the women next door…..

  • Ulsters my homeland

    “[i]Setting about a bunch of Orangemen with hurley sticks does nothing for liberty, equality or fraternity.”[/i]

    They’re learning from Republicans of old, who used violence against Protestants as an intimidation tactic, while peddling their liberty and equality propaganda to the rest of the world.

    “[i]I think the tensions in this village arise to a large extent from the Ballymaconnelly band parade and all that comes with it. I appreciate that the Twelfth is a bit more ‘restrained’ but nevertheless some of the same parties will have been involved. “[/i]

    Why haven’t you mentioned Rasharkin’s Sons of Ireland Republican band flute band, who dress in full terrorist regalia through the village, as having a part to play in stoking up tensions? Your good at talking about liberty and equality, but it’s only when it suits you!

    “[i]I am aware of the problems in the past in this village and in the north Antrim area. I would say that the problem is the determination of the loyalists to impose themselves on Catholic people in Rasharkin and that the band parade is the worst manifestation of this.[/i]

    You’ve never mentioned the peaceful times, when parades in the village were never viewed as imposing or intimidating. You’ve either avoided it or you’re a young whipper-snapper, too young to remember the peaceful times before Republican sectarianism warped the minds of good Catholics.

    Let me remind you that before the troubles and even during the troubles, the vast majority of Rasharkin’s Catholics watched the Orange parade with their Protestant neighbours and they attended dances in the Orange hall with their Protestant friends. Rasharkin was a peaceful village before Republican terrorism turned it into a sectarian hatefeast in the late 70’s.

    “[i]I would defend the right of Orangemen to parade in Rasharkin provided they do so in a manner which respects the dignity of all. I believe that the residents are amenable to this.”[/i]

    And what would this entail? a single drum beat? in a field somewhere?…..sure you’d be better exterminating us once and for all if you hate us that much!

    “[i]I am not from Rasharkin and indeed I have never been there though I have followed what has gone on there down the years and researched the matter extensively on the Internet.”[/i]

    so you’ll agree with me that Republicans turned the village into a sectarian hatefeast before any UVF/UDA memorabilia was introduced?

    “[i]I protested (successfully) against the Tour of the North parade several years ago and I am in complete solidarity with those in Rasharkin who ask to be shown a basic level of RESPECT.”[/i]

    What is this basic level of respect? Nationalist and Republicans started protested against the whole idea of a parade, they never started protesting against the UVF/UDA emblems, because this was a reactionary addition to the Sons of Ireland flute band dressing in full terrorist regalia.

    again, what is this basic level of respect?

  • POL

    They’re learning from Republicans of old, who used violence against Protestants as an intimidation tactic, while peddling their liberty and equality propaganda to the rest of the world.

    Has undertones of the peep o day boys.

  • Ulsters my homeland

    “[i]Has undertones of the peep o day boys”[/i]

    It has nothing of the sort, the Peep-O-Day boys were a reactionary force against the defenders. Why were they called the Defenders, was it because they were defending the current kings rules?

  • paul kielty

    Regarding the booze fest that is the twelfth, I happened to witness two police officers confronting two men with a case of carlsberg. We had just driven down Balmoral avenue, a few minutes before the parade was due, and just the other side of the flyover at the kings hall. So some police officers were trying to limit the boozing.

    My relatives on the upper ormeau road said that they could never remember a quieter twelfth, bar the blarring of sectarian ‘music’, coming from the orange hall all over the district. The road was dead.

    The orange order needs some real leadership now. It is dying a rapid death.

    Is there anyone capable of such leadership??

  • picador

    Let me remind you that before the troubles and even during the troubles, the vast majority of Rasharkin’s Catholics watched the Orange parade with their Protestant neighbours and they attended dances in the Orange hall with their Protestant friends. Rasharkin was a peaceful village before Republican terrorism turned it into a sectarian hatefeast in the late 70’s.

    Now that’s what I would call a hoary old chestnut!

    Why haven’t you mentioned Rasharkin’s Sons of Ireland Republican band flute band, who dress in full terrorist regalia through the village, as having a part to play in stoking up tensions? Your good at talking about liberty and equality, but it’s only when it suits you!

    Because I have never heard of them and their parades do have a high profile in the media unlike the loyalist marches in Rasharkin. I do not have any time for these kind of bands at all – imititation is the sincerest form of flattery in my view. I would assume that if their parade goes where it is not welcome it would be restricted.

    But let’s go back to the golden days of yesteryear when all was quiet and Fenians knew their place.

    I re-read a biography of Paisley recently and it mentioned a rumpus he kicked up in Rasharkin in the 1950s when the GAA wanted to have some kind of procession to their ground on a Sunday. Well of course Paisley wasn’t having any of that and kicked up a stink because this procession would pass a Sunday school. He and his bully boys got their way and the procession was cancelled. Fifty years on and Rasharkin has the Sons of Ireland Flute Band. How times have changed!

    Are you from round those parts yourself umh? Just wondering about your level of knowledge. Do you seriously think I’m going to climb out of your computr and batter you with a hurling stick?

  • picador

    The Sons of Ireland have a website

    RSOIFB

    It’s fair to say that they appear quite militaristic. Perhaps they are commemorating those who fought in the Easter Rising or the Tan War – eh, betcha never thought of that!?

    And it not as if they are going out of their way to offend Protestants. Their schedule for this year (apart from Rasharkin) includes Derry, Dunloy, Toome, Kilrea, Swatragh, Gulladuff, Draperstown, Carrickmore and Dungiven – all places which are strongly nationalist.

    But I am not a spokesman for this band. They should not march where they are not wanted and they don’t appear to do so – that’s it. Loyalists on the otherhand…

  • Steve

    Well atleast the Sons of Ireland don’t have some silly twat out front waving a sword

  • joeCanuck

    UMH

    You forgot to remind folks that the nuns used to serve scones and tea at the field to the weary marchers.

  • Ulsters my homeland

    “[i]But let’s go back to the golden days of yesteryear when all was quiet and Fenians knew their place.”[/i]

    This is exactly the type of mindset which creates sectarianism and division. While you’re trying to peddle the idea ‘Fenians knew their place’, Protestants must also have ‘known their place’ during Ancient Order of Hibernian parades.

    …and don’t try to tell me they didn’t parade past homes where Protestants lived, no-one will buy it.

    “[i]I re-read a biography of Paisley recently and it mentioned a rumpus he kicked up in Rasharkin in the 1950s when the GAA wanted to have some kind of procession to their ground on a Sunday. Well of course Paisley wasn’t having any of that and kicked up a stink because this procession would pass a Sunday school. He and his bully boys got their way and the procession was cancelled.”[/i]

    Imagine Catholics wanting to parade through a Protestant village, and on a sunday too. I thought it was only Protestants who done that! I do see your point about Paisley and those like him who believes their always right while others are wrong. If Paisley left anything good for N.Ireland, it’s a memory of how not to do things. However, I believe his protest against the GAA was primarily about the sacrilege of the Sabbath.

    “[i]Fifty years on and Rasharkin has the Sons of Ireland Flute Band. How times have changed!”[/i]

    They were created in the 70’s, and after their creation the Republican campaign of sectarianism and intimidation drove 90% of the Protestant families out of Rasharkin.

    “[i]Are you from round those parts yourself umh? Just wondering about your level of knowledge. Do you seriously think I’m going to climb out of your computr and batter you with a hurling stick?”[/i]

    …like I’m worried about you with or without a hurley stick. It’s none of your business if I’m in a lodge, band or where I live. I’ll not be giving you or your ilk the chance to blacken anyone or anything close to me by something I might say in the spur of the moment on a forum. I’ve read the IRA green book and I know how you lot work.

  • Ulsters my homeland

    “[i]But I am not a spokesman for this band. They should not march where they are not wanted and they don’t appear to do so – that’s it. Loyalists on the otherhand… “[/i]

    picador, you just don’t get it, do you? What if Protestants in those areas which you say are largely Nationalists receive ‘outside’ help from loyalist paramilitaries in protesting against these parades? Will you support the banning of that parade? Will you continue to support the banning of all other parades where there’s obvious organisation by loyalist paramilitaries? When does the carve up of normal communities stop?

    You’re ignorance against Protestant parades actually is denying everyone their right to parade and even could go as far as destroying their civil and religious liberty, if left unchallenged. If you can’t see how this parading issue will eventually play out, you my Catholic friend, are a complete dunce.

  • Taff

    There is no doubt that if fourteen policemen were seriously injured in a sectarian riot in Britain, extensive film of the incident would certainly have been shown on national televison. Otherwise serious questions would be asked about censorship in the BBC.

    In fact, there was only a passing reference to the Portadown riot – a sentence perhaps – but again there was no film footage of the riot in Portadown. The BBC for some reason was reluctant to broadcast the continuing reality of sectarianism in Northern Ireland. And as a result viewers here remain ill-informed.

  • picador

    Taff,

    Northern Ireland is the setting for some of the British states dirtiest little secrets which the government do not want you to know about, e.g collusion.

    The BBC (and most of the British media it must be said) are a party to covering this up.

    The line this year is that Northern Ireland is moving on and the Orange Order is moving on with it. Nothing will be broadcast on mainstream British media which contradicts this line.

    Dirty secrets – a brief example:

    On 4 December 1971 a no-warning bomb destroyed McGurk’s bar in North Queen Street, Belfast killing 15 men, women and children ans wounding many more. The British Army put out mis-information to the effect that the bomb was being handled by people inside the bar and was an IRA ‘own goal’. Politicians and Westminister and the media went along with this line. In fact Loyalists had planted the bomb and the army knew this all along but preferred to blacken the names of the dead and injured in order to discredit the IRA.

    After 37 years on campaigning on the issue the relatives of the victims finally forced an apology from the British government. The apology was read in the House of Commons on Monday by Paul Goggins MP, junior Northern Ireland minister with responisbility for ‘security’. No doubt the house was empty like it usually is when NI is discussed. Unsurprisingly the story was not picked up in the British press.

    15 people, 37 years and an obscure junior secretary. That’s British justice for you!