McGuinness in Iraq – latest

Picking up on Turgon’s post on Martin McGuinness’s peace mission to Iraq, I see the BBC are rating it highly in the newsmaking stakes. They’ve sent Paul Adams a news correspondent to follow in his footsteps. For the Today programme, Wood interviewed the DFM last night for broadcast just after his plane touched down this morning. McGuinness was asked some pointed questions, about his attitude to killing British troops in Basra and planting car bombs.

I hope his companion on the mission Lord Alderdice the former Assembly Speaker is asked for his assessment of the trip.

  • RepublicanStones

    Krusty was very tactile and spewed the usual rhetoric you would expect of any politician. What he failed but no doubt wanted to say was the main problem in Iraq is the occupation of it by foreign forces.

  • POL

    Was it not the case a while back that undercover british forces were captured planting a car bomb to inflame sectarianism, and as a result the local jail was attacked to spring said bombers. Kind of lost media interest pretty dramatically.Even the fact that a lot of local criminals escaped during the sortie.

  • “Lord Alderdice the former Assembly Speaker” and member of the Independent(?) Monitoring Commission.

    I suppose there will be some soft words about the need for a culture of lawfulness but these will eventually disappear if the power brokers decide that the hard men will rule the roost.

  • RepublicanStones

    Correct POL, apparently they were caught in traditional dress with explosives on them. Begs the question, what were they up to…..actually it seems pretty obvious.

  • POL

    #

    Correct POL, apparently they were caught in traditional dress with explosives on them. Begs the question, what were they up to…..actually it seems pretty obvious.
    Posted by RepublicanStones on Jul 05, 2008 @ 10:14 AM

    I remember watching a docu that pretty much pointed the finger of blame at the occupation forces(british and american) for putting up posters in religiously mixed areas threatening violence against the minority community ie inflaming religious hatred in an attempt to create pograms. I guess if you have them killing each other it justifys the occupation as a peace keeping mission ( I swear its not the oil) and has the added bonus of deflecting violence away from themselves.

  • Paul

    Any comment from our Unionist contributors ?

    Thought not, British Forces yet again disgrace themselves.

    Unionism = Ireland’s Shame

  • It was Sammy Mc Nally what done it

    This venture by the British has been by far the most damaging to them since Suez. Presumably Marty’s analysis will draw heavily on the paralells with Non Iron particulalry the failure of the military to resolve the situation and the need for dialogue on all sides and of course he may well be warning of the dangers of partition as a long term solution.

  • ulsterfan

    I hope Alderdice does not get involved with decommissioning in Iraq because he still has unfinished work in Ireland to prove to Unionists that Martins friends have indeed got rid of all weapons to the satisfaction of the majority community..
    Maybe he can have a chat to him again.
    In the meantime P&J;stays in Westminster where I am glad to say Sovereignty resides for NI notwithstanding any powers devolved to Stormont.
    Rule Britannia.
    It is also good to see on the International stage someone of the Stature of Lord Alderdice is present to compensate for McGuiness.

  • “Presumably Marty’s analysis”

    Comical Marty in the world of Comical Ali. You couldn’t make it up.

  • It seems to me that no matter what they do, people from a background like McGuinness will never satisfy some people. Everytime ground is given, it’s not enough and more quarter is demanded: No talks till a ceasefire. Ceasefire achieved? Well in that case no talks until it’s permanent. It’s permanent, well we can’t go forward until we’ve had decommissioning. You’ve decommisioned? Well how do we know it’s complete, oh and never mind about the guns that those guys we used to know still hold onto. Sure they’re nothing to do with us now. Decommissioning validated by international monitors? Oh well we still need a decontamination period and anyway, how can we trust these international monitors, sure Rev. Paisley said he doesn’t trust them. Oh what, Paisley’s the Lundy now? Right, well what about that army council, no still nothing doing… and so it goes on.

    In the end, some people have yet to realise that peace and reconciliation is not supposed to make you feel happy or satisfied. It is difficult, it is often distasteful and it is a compromise you never want to make. This is because the people you must do it with are your enemies. It is hard to do, but then many things worth doing are. This basic reality has yet to dawn on some.

  • RepublicanStones

    a unionist talkin about ‘Sovereignty’, whatever next, will we have a klansman on talkin about equality?

  • UMIF, I found PnR very satisfying and pleasurable. It was the sort of thing I was engaged in from 1971 onwards when the likes of Paisley and McGuinness were having their bit of fun.

    I treated everyone as a friend until I knew different and the groups I was involved in were very inclusive. I was working mainly, but not exclusively, with 16-19 year olds and it was a dawdle to organise – there was so much enthusiasm and goodwill.

    Some folks make the mistake of organising groups into ‘two tribes’ and then bring them together. It’s so much easier to bring people together on the basis of what they have in common and let them work the common ground together: do-do outranks talk-talk.

  • Surprisingly it’s an excellent interview. Thank you for the link.

  • Prentice

    @UlsterManIrelandFan

    Requiring the abolition of private armies for a political party is reasonable behaviour. This added to knowledge of past behaviour makes such requirements justifiable. However, having said that, we should not lose track of what it was that made the IRA bad guys. It wasn’t actually the murders and bombings that made them bad guys, just like no amount of Hiroshimas and Dresdens would ever really make the Allies bad guys in comparison to the Axis in World War Two, or killings of civilians by the ANC or French Resistance would make them bad guys (as a corporate entity). Those IRA activities were, in the legal sense of the term “aggravation” (i.e. the opposite of mitigation) to the charge of their “badguyness”, while the crimes of unionists (e.g. gerrymandering, murders) can only be used by the IRA as mitigation, not as proof of non-guilt of “badguyness”. No, the fundamental thing that made the IRA bad guys was that their AIM was immoral. Their aim being a united Ireland without consent. It doesn’t really matter how gentlemanly they conducted themselves in their campaign, they would still nevertheless be bad guys because of that immoral aim.

    Too many people forget that and don’t point it out, instead pointing to their murders to prove them in the wrong. But bad behaviour doesn’t fundamentally prove people in the wrong.

    After concession of that the rest of the conditions on Sinn Fein really have to be temporary affairs, and that’s what they’ve turned out to be. If people vote for Sinn Fein then they cannot be marginalised forever just because of the past and not the present, but requiring them to abandon private armies is legit.

  • heck

    ulsterfan says “I hope Alderdice does not get involved with decommissioning in Iraq because he still has unfinished work in Ireland to prove to Unionists that Martins friends have indeed got rid of all weapons to the satisfaction of the majority community.. ”

    the IRA has decomissioned all it bigoted unionist flat earthers

    all aldershite has to do is prove to anyone, anyone at all, that unionist paramilitaries have given up the arms supplied to them by the British.

    NA –let’s have a dig at the fenians

  • POL

    Ulsterfan

    I take it the decommissioning of unionist/loyalist weapons doesn`t come into your equation. You know the ones now being used to butcher their own community.

  • POL

    McGuinness was asked some pointed questions, about his attitude to killing British troops in Basra and planting car bombs.

    Is there any evidence that Marty chuckle was involved in killing british troops in Basra.

  • ulsterfan

    POL

    ALL arms held illegally should be decommissioned . This applies to loyalist as well as Republicans.

  • Marty boy may not have been ‘killing British troops in Basra’, but the weapons developed by his cohorts, e.g. Mortar Jim of Colombia fame certainly are. Marty, however, was more a gunman. I well remember him sniping up Butcher Street into the Diamond in Londonderry. And of course, who can forget his action in luring Frankie Hegarty back home with a ‘false promise’, only for the poor fellow to end up with a number of bullets in the back of his head and found on the border near Castlederg.

  • Prionsa Eoghan

    Dear dear a free run at someone’s reputation. Perhaps Mart has a policy on not suing.

  • POL

    POL

    ALL arms held illegally should be decommissioned . This applies to loyalist as well as Republicans.

    Yet you only mention Republican weapons, the only group which has decommissioned.And say nothing of the threat of non-decommissioned weapons within the unionist/loyalist areas.

  • Garibaldy

    PE,

    More like no chance of winning, so not worth the hassle.

  • POL

    #

    Marty boy may not have been ‘killing British troops in Basra’, but the weapons developed by his cohorts, e.g. Mortar Jim of Colombia fame certainly are. Marty, however, was more a gunman. I well remember him sniping up Butcher Street into the Diamond in Londonderry. And of course, who can forget his action in luring Frankie Hegarty back home with a ‘false promise’, only for the poor fellow to end up with a number of bullets in the back of his head and found on the border near Castlederg.
    Posted by William on Jul 05, 2008 @ 04:53 PM

    Yeah must be the IRA who started the iraqi war, dem pesky Iraqi`s couldnt do it all by themselves.
    Nor could the good old British establishment be accused of murder.However FRU comes to mind.

  • Prionsa Eoghan

    Garibaldy

    Pretty specific allegations, claims of “well remembering” Surely you jest about having no chance of winning? William, or whomever he is would have to provide evidence to substantiate.

  • Garibaldy

    Well the point of libel as I understand it is that it damages your reputation through an untruth. So the point is to convince the jury that it is untrue, and that you have a reputation to be damaged. Which I think is where the problems for PSF leaders has lain in the past, given the likely comnposition of any jury, or a judge if it was heard without a jury as I think is possible.

  • 0b101010

    Round and round we go…

  • Prionsa Eoghan

    Garibaldy

    Your personal likes and dislikes are clear.

    However unless William(or you) can prove the specific allegations made then there has been defamation of character, regardless of past gossip.

    There is a history on this site of allowing open defamatory comments about marty.

  • Jamsie

    i think the big question is who’s providing Marty’s security in Iraq – the british army?? – surely not…..

  • Garibaldy

    PE,

    My likes and dislikes are well known to you, but I’m not giving an opinion on the statements made here. But I meant objectively that people like Adams and McGuinness have looked at the situation in the past and decided not to sue on the basis that they were unlikely to win the case and get stuck with the costs, especially if it went before a court in GB, or a jury in NI that would also contain people automatically hostile to them (Adams has said as much in the past). So while you are correct that such statements could be the basis of legal action the reality is they won’t be (look at what happened in the Murphy case, and that was in the south). Whether they are a violation of the rules on slugger, is of course a different matter.

  • Prionsa Eoghan

    Fair enough.

    Although clear, and in my opinion very winnable actions for defamation like this should be considered by Mr McGuinness. After all he is a reputable world statesman and peacemaker now.

    William either has evidence to back up his clear statements or he doesn’t. Civil courts work on the reasonable balance of evidence. Hearsay, or fantasy opinion from William I’m sure would not serve as evidence.

    Although I’m sure I’m not the only one who would like to hear any evidence he does have. Piss or get aff the pan, ma man.

  • Garibaldy

    PE,

    As I understand he was offering an eyewitness account. Which may or may not be true, I have no idea. Wasn’t the Hegarty accusation part of the Cook Report around 1993, and didn’t it come directly from Hegarty’s mother?

  • Ulsters my homeland

    What? no suicide bombers?…..

  • The SAS in Iraq must be on the ropes if they have to call in their paddy parrots. Iraq is not the Creggan. It is bigger and has way more backbone. I ownder how much McGuinness is getting for this gig.

  • Prionsa Eoghan

    >>As I understand he was offering an eyewitness account. Which may or may not be true< < Didn't I see you in bishop street in 1974 having a sly slash on your way home? The court would listen to my evidence, decide on it's credibility, weigh up any other evidence and on the balance of probabilities come to a decision. I'm sure it was you though;¬) >>Wasn’t the Hegarty accusation part of the Cook Report around 1993, and didn’t it come directly from Hegarty’s mother?<< Is there any evidence of the private conversation of victim and Marty? Or evidence that he helped set the guy up? I don't know, hearsay from a third party is not considered evidence, no matter how emotive.

  • Garibaldy

    I’m not sure that someone saying they had a conversation with someone is hearsay, as opposed to an eyewitness account. I think – and I might be wrong here – that McGuinness has admited meeting the mother, but denied the other elements of the story.

  • Prionsa Eoghan

    This started off as defamation, now we are into a case that I am unfamiliar with I’m afraid.

    I might be getting mixed up with the evidence, was Marty supposed to have spoke to the mother with the purposes of enticement for murder?, I don’t know. I was under the impression the mother had heard of any alleged enticement from the victim.

  • Garibaldy

    The account given by the mother was that she had been visited and asked to ask him to come back, and that she had been personally promised that he would be safe. There may also have been an account that phone conversations were facilitated by the family but I’m might be misremembering.

  • Prionsa Eoghan

    And Marty’s version must differ or else we are into conspiracy to murder territory here.

    Anyhow the family are nagging me to go and watch something with them………….later.

  • Garibaldy

    It does differ. Have fun

  • heck

    Just to add a comment on the deformation of republicans that is allowed on slugger

    I believe there were a lot of comments from equally informed unionists who accused Danny Morrison for being the judge who ruled on the execution of touts.

    It turned out that in the case that lead to his conviction Danny was the only person telling the truth-that he was entrapped, and that he thought he was comming to hold a press conference where a tout would own up to what he had done.

    I have yet to see and apology from the same unionists

  • “I found PnR very satisfying and pleasurable. It was the sort of thing I was engaged in from 1971 onwards when the likes of Paisley and McGuinness were having their bit of fun.

    I treated everyone as a friend until I knew different and the groups I was involved in were very inclusive. I was working mainly, but not exclusively, with 16-19 year olds and it was a dawdle to organise – there was so much enthusiasm and goodwill.”

    Nevin, with respect, I think you missed the point I was trying to make. Making peace may have been “satisfying and pleasurable” for you – good for you if that’s the case. Unfortunately, that will not be everybody’s situation. Many thousands suffer in silence through grief for the loved and lost or from long term horrific injury. For such people “enthusiam and goodwill” are I would think an almost impossible idea. Peace and reconciliation will never be a “dawdle” for them. That was my point – people assume this process is about touchy / feely inclusiveness. I’m afraid that’s the only the easy part. The tortuous long term challenge is letting go of the enmity. That is hard and is not supposed to feel “right”.

  • I was a Officer in the Forces and saw the eveidence…however, as with the three Cook Reports on Marty, the politicians scuppered any chances of putting him before a Judge [at least in Northern Ireland]. They did catch him red-handed with a guy named O’Donnell over the border with a car full of arms, for which he did 6 months in Mountjoy Jail.

    What I find strange, is that Republicans murdered around 2,000 people, yet none of them ever did anything, according to some of the Chukkie posters

  • It was Sammy Mc Nally what done it

    I understood it was IRA policy to shoot informers – dead. Marty was an IRA commander – he must have ordered/sanctioned the shooting of a quite a few informers. Since then the Nationalist people voted in SF and Marty into office – they know and understand his past – unlike Grizzly he doesnt suggest that he was never in the IRA.

  • truth

    I think it’s totally disgraceful that martin mcguinness has just legitimised the Invasion of Iraq by the British and American Army. He has betrayed the Republican cause and accepted an internal settlement here in Ireland by setting up a Northern Ireland executive and accepting the crown forces. He is now attempting to go to Iraq and tell the people there who are also occupied by a foreign force how to crawl on your hands and knees and hand there country over to the Brits and Americans. He would have been better boycotting the worlds biggest TERRORIST AND CRIMINAL GEORGE BUSH at a recent visit here as a point of principal and solidarity with the Iraq people who are dying in there thousands as a result of this invasion. Over one MILLION Iraq’s have died as a result of the greed of the Bush Administration with the help of the former British Pri minister Tony Blair. War crimes is what they should be tried for. Shame on you Martin McGuinness, but then again you are now a puppett for the British so we should ecpect nothing else. I hope the Iraq’s have the good sense to tell YOU to go to F**k.

  • RepublicanStones

    ‘i think the big question is who’s providing Marty’s security in Iraq – the british army?? – surely not…..’

    ‘aul Krusty probably arranged for a couple of the ex ranger wing guys out there to provide his CPT.

  • aquifer

    Thanks Prentice for the reminder that the PIRA campaign, trying to change minds by blowing peoples’ brains out when there were other options for progress, was quite immoral. Just like Paisley’s efforts to deny Catholic British Citizens their equal rights.

    Interesting to hear Martin sounding like John Hume, while the Americans offer armed struggle to all, giving guns to their favourite militias.

    All those underemployed Arabs trying to get even by shooting other underemployed Arabs.

    What can Martin tell them?

  • UMIF, your more recent point was covered up by the whitewash job you did on paramilitary godfathers, not forgetting their ongoing role in organised crime.

    Why didn’t you mention the victims in your first post? We often met victims in our ‘outreach’ work in places like Corrymeela and, of course, some of our members were from families that were on the receiving end of the violence. These members benefited greatly from the fellowship of our group and contributed wholeheartedly to our projects. However, some will carry the physical and mental scars to the grave.

    The Chuckle Brothers act while being hilarious at one level was absolutely nauseous at another.

  • Regarding Frankie Hegarty’s mother’s ‘hearsay’ statement….in fact the old lady swore an affadavit before an officer of the court, as she said, ‘in case I should die and not be hear to tell what McGuinness told me’.

    As to McGuinness’s reputation: Well, he didn’t sue the Sunday Times or their Northern Ireland Editor, Liam Clarke nor did they sue Liam and his wife for the book they wrote about him. Not to mention the three Cook Reports which exposed the Godfather of terror. The Chukkies should remember, you can only sue for libel if you have a reputation to uphold. No one in the Leadership of the Shinners / IRA Republican murder machine are blessed with such a reputation.

  • Tony Kenny and O. Callaghan musn’t have read the new script provided by the London bomber, Martina Kavanagh, aka Anderson, who wanted to reach out to Unionists. [Another SF fantasy of course]. They still display the old hatred of Prods, Unionists, British etc etc.

    As to Morrison, how many times was he guilty and got away with it.

    The time spent in the clink obviously didn’t nurture his ‘writing’ brain cells, when you read the garbage he spews out both online and in print.

  • Greagoir O Frainclin

    “Was it not the case a while back that undercover british forces were captured planting a car bomb to inflame sectarianism, and as a result the local jail was attacked to spring said bombers. Kind of lost media interest pretty dramatically.Even the fact that a lot of local criminals escaped during the sortie.”

    Indeed this is incredible stuff. Read the links below……..

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4263648.stm

    http://www.kavkazcenter.com/eng/content/2005/09/23/4096.shtml

    Who knows what kind of skullduggery the British forces did in Northern Ireland as well.

    No doubt Unionists would dismiss the very thoughts. Are Unionists any old lackeys who’d believe in anything? ‘Rule Britannia’ as they say, and sure bless ’em!

    Regarding McGuinness in Iraq, gas that he’s out there on his own; again Unionists intransigence and inertia for all to see. If there is a break through, no doubt they’ll be jumping on the bandwagon, else they’ll dismiss it like everything else that is not to there liking!
    Ah sure bless ’em again!

  • Greagoir O Frainclin

    there = their, oops sorry, the queen’s english.
    Cor blimey!

  • Prionsa Eoghan

    >>I was a Officer in the Forces and saw the eveidence.< < Well you wouldn't have any problem producing some evidence then William. >>What I find strange, is that Republicans murdered around 2,000 people, yet none of them ever did anything, according to some of the Chukkie posters< < Funny it's the exact opposite on slugger, Republicans seem to fall over themselves to take their share of the blame. I also thought it was policy of the various Republican groupings to claim responsibility for attacks on Crown forces, that make up the majority of killings attributed to them. >>in fact the old lady swore an affadavit before an officer of the court, as she said, ‘in case I should die and not be hear to tell what McGuinness told me’.< < Yep this would count as evidence, although the credibility on balance would be the key. >>The Chukkies should remember, you can only sue for libel if you have a reputation to uphold.< < While this is true William, you are trying to smudge ever so much. You made a very clear statement regarding sniping down a street. I don't think that you have evidence supporting that statement, it is not something that is generally known of Marty, so it is a defamation. Should you have say made a statement about being IRA commander then we are into the realms of veritas. >>They still display the old hatred of Prods, Unionists, British etc etc.<< Oh dear, I have came to the conclusion that Orange bigots cling to this falsehood the better to stick to their own prejudices, you know assuage their own conscious for being bigoted haters. Not you of course William, no never. And as for your efforts at intimidation, away and ride yirsel. I do not hide my identity, don't feel the need to, do you?

  • Nevin, that was bit strong. I wasn’t trying to whitewash anything. On the contrary, the point I tried to make was that some people will never accept the bona fides of republicans who were involved in the PIRA campaign, McGuinness is just the obvious example. So posters who talk about things like “….he hasn’t even apologised / …. they still have their army council”, I think are missing the point. None of that will help the peace process feel any more “right” for the people who have really suffered. I therefore find all the sneering a bit pointless.

  • The Raven

    POL wrote: “I remember watching a docu that pretty much pointed the finger of blame at the occupation forces(british and american) for putting up posters in religiously mixed areas threatening violence against the minority community ie inflaming religious hatred in an attempt to create pograms. I guess if you have them killing each other it justifys the occupation as a peace keeping mission ( I swear its not the oil) and has the added bonus of deflecting violence away from themselves.”

    Sorry for coming a bit late to this. Don’t quite understand that rationale re: the British Army. Looking at the petrol pump, I don’t see the gain! Also, this is increasingly a war that I doubt the coffers of No 11 can afford. So would they not be looking for reasons to get out rather than stay in?

    It’s a very simplistic view of mine on that one, and I bow to those more knowledgeable on this subject than I am.

  • Garibaldy

    given the dependence of the world economy, and of the attitude of the native populations in the US and UK, on oil, I reckon that the argument that the Iraq War is costing more than it’s earning for the occupying powers is just wrong.

  • Granni Trixie

    What I object to is that in NI BBC news (and in the utterances of Quintin Oliver,making a good living out of this sort of thing),the identity of McGuinness as player in the peace process was “bigged up”, not as one who is relevant and likely to have the ear of other paramilitary players because he was himself one who advocated violent means of exerting influence.

    How must the families of victims of IRA violence in NI have felt at this media treatment?

  • 6countyprod

    Doesn’t it speak volumes about progress in Iraq to hear that Sunni and Shia leaders and politicians are now discussing with each how to bring the conflict to a close.

    Obviously, the recent US military/political strategy in Iraq under Patraeus has been hugely successful, and great credit to Bush for initiating the ‘surge’.

    Of course many people will never be able to bring themselves to give credit to Bush for anything, but at the end of the day, Bush has won in Iraq, ( http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/07/05/iraq/main4234910.shtml?source=RSSattr=HOME_4234910 )

    and indeed is winning in the worldwide struggle against Islamofacism. ( http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1819903,00.html?xid=rss-topstories )

    An article in The Times makes for very encouraging reading…
    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/iraq/article4276486.ece

  • BfB

    You’ll not get this good news in the US, that’s for sure. My apologies for upsetting slugger’s dhimmi membership.
    Have not a clue why the gentleman would feel compelled to visit the war on terror theater..
    Not reported over here.

  • It was Sammy Mc Nally what done it

    6countyprod,

    The yankess (and British ) are definitely making progress and anti-war persons like myself have some difficulty admitting this. It is a little early to be claiming victory and the very act of doing so (say in the American elections ) may actually cause things to kick off again.

    It is also noted that many Unionists would themselves have great difficulty admiting that Marty was going to do any good even if the facts pointed in that direction.

    We often make our minds up on events – not based on the facts – but based on our ideology – which has been formed long before events unfold. And worse than that would prefer things unfolded badly to avoid ourselves being proven wrong or because it does not suit or ideology.

  • 6countyprod

    iwsmwdi,
    yeah, the Iraqis themselves has really progressed as well. The overthrow of Saddam and establishment of an Iraqi democracy has created a new dynamic in the Middle East which hopefully will have a very positive impact for other oppressed countries in the region.

  • It was Sammy Mc Nally what done it

    6countyprod

    Are you referring to Saudi Arabia – or perhaps they are on the wrong side of the western fence?

  • RepublicanStones

    Shhhh, Sammy your not suppose to mention Saudi Arabia. The fact that it treatment of its subjects makes life under Saddam look like a Butlins weekend is not meant to be reported as the house of Saud are great pals with the USA.

  • 6countyprod

    So far in the Middle East, only Israel could be considered a functioning democracy. If things keep going in the right direction in Iraq, it may be the second.

    When people in other Arab countries see Iraqis enjoying the benefit of religious, political and economic freedoms, it will be fascinating to see what happens next in neighbouring countries.

    Saudi Arabia is, of course, owned and administered by a family, so who knows what will hapeen there. I don’t think one man/person, one vote will ever be allowed there, otherwise the Palestinians would take over!

  • spadesaspade

    Should Marti decide to tell the truth for a change
    he`ll tell the insurgents leadership to do as he and others in the leadership have done to true republicans.

    Attend meetings with the brits without approval.
    Set up vol`s for assination
    allow 6 hungerstrikers die for self gain
    lie to the electorate about water charges
    cover up murders of nationalists etc,etc,etc

  • Steve

    6countyprod

    I think if you cared to look that outsiders are not allowed to become citizens of Saudi Arabia. You can stay and work your whole life there, you can even die there but you will never be a citizen. So even if it became a democracy there is little chance of change

  • Greagoir O Frainclin

    “When people in other Arab countries see Iraqis enjoying the benefit of religious, political and economic freedoms, it will be fascinating to see what happens next in neighbouring countries.”

    Yep, very true ‘6countyprod’ and I reckon a compromised criteria was applied by Britain/USA to the conflict in Northern Ireland, hence the remarkable advancement with the NI peace process. I’m sure you would agree whole heartedly too! Huzzah for democracy; religious, political and economic freedom!

  • 6countyprod

    Steve, exactly! It’s a family affair, no room for outsiders. I’ve read a few books on SA, personal accounts mostly, scary stuff. But Obama is going to sort it all out for us.

    G O’F,
    compromised criteria could be called contextualised democracy. Democracy takes different shapes and forms, depending on the context. Hopefully the Iraqis will find an equitable system that works for them.

  • Greenflag

    republican stones ,

    ‘The fact that it treatment of its subjects makes life under Saddam look like a Butlins weekend is not meant to be reported as the house of Saud are great pals with the USA.’

    Actually not the case . While it’s true that Saudi’s cannot vote and will never enjoy democracy until it’s too late i.e when the oil runs out -it’s false to compare the Saudi treatment under their ‘degenerate monarchy’ to the treatment of the Shiite and Kurdish (majority of Iraqis) under the Sunni (Saddam Hussein).

    Saudi citizens enjoy universal health care – free education and welfare payments etc etc . They have large families and employ foreigners to do much of the manual work -they also employ highly paid westerners to help them extract the oil to pay for the life styles of several hundred ‘royal ‘ princes etc etc .

    When the oil runs out for this lot it’ll be back to the camel in a week and cannibalism within a fortnight 🙁

    The fact that the USA supports the Saudi Arabians just means that the USA has little choice . There is none or very little opposition to the Saudi royals . Why would there be ?

  • Steve

    Green flag

    the reason the saudi royal house is so generous is that they have very few “citizens”. If you are a foreign worker and you are raped or killed by a “citizen” your chance for justice is non-existant. I agree with RS the Saddam regime had nothing on the saudi’s

  • 6countyprod

    Incidents of rape and murder that are not brought to justice in SA are a far cry from the systematic slaughter of hundreds of thousands of Iraqis under the Saddam regime. No excuse for either, but Saddam was definitely worse.

  • POL

    Raven said
    Sorry for coming a bit late to this. Don’t quite understand that rationale re: the British Army. Looking at the petrol pump, I don’t see the gain! Also, this is increasingly a war that I doubt the coffers of No 11 can afford. So would they not be looking for reasons to get out rather than stay in?

    Why then was the first order of business to secure the oil fields, whilst the museums were being looted.

  • POL

    #

    Incidents of rape and murder that are not brought to justice in SA are a far cry from the systematic slaughter of hundreds of thousands of Iraqis under the Saddam regime. No excuse for either, but Saddam was definitely worse.
    Posted by 6countyprod on Jul 07, 2008 @ 01:04 PM

    The Yanks and the Brits are`nt doing to badly either.

  • 6countyprod

    To compare accidental killing, and even occasional murder by coalition forces – which is subsequently punished – with the horrors perpetrated by Saddam and Al Qaeda, is simply idiotic.

    In fact a number of so-called abuses by coalition troops, greatly played up in the media and anti-war circles, have turned out to be false.

  • earnan

    Much progress has been made in the past 5-6 months. You rarely hear about it though.

  • Steve

    6county prod
    compare accidental killing, and even occasional murder by coalition forces – which is subsequently punished – with the horrors perpetrated by Saddam and Al Qaeda, is simply idiotic.

    Most obviously there was no al quaeda in iraq befor the american allowed them in

    Second accidental and occasional? Pull the other one its even longer

  • earnan

    POL

    My brother has served in Iraq on 2 different occasions. He has never seen any incidents where AMerican troops are “slaughtering” innocent Iraqi’s Give it a rest. When al Queda blow themselves up next to an American soldier handing out candy to schoolchildren (which happened 20 miles from where my brother was stationed) I don’t see how you could blame American troops for the resulting deaths.

  • 6countyprod

    earnan,
    Don’t let them get to you. There are none so blind as those who do not want to see. Some people enjoy living in a self-created reality. #The coalition forces are doing a tremendous job in Iraq and we all should be proud of their achievement against a bunch of freedom-hating, blood-thirsty monsters.

  • Steve

    6

    what are they doing a treamendous job of doing? Cleaning up the mess they themselves made?

  • Greenflag

    Steve ,

    Very few ? The population of Saudi Arabia is 27 million of which 5.5 million are non nationals . So I don’t know where you get your ‘few’ citizens from.

    ‘the reason the saudi royal house is so generous is that they have very few “citizens”.’

    Not at all the reason is they are awash with petro dollars so much so that they would rather not have any more because of the dollar’s depreciating value against the Euro , Yen and British Pound .

    ‘If you are a foreign worker and you are raped or killed by a “citizen” your chance for justice is non-existant.’

    That I can believe but ‘only’ if you are a non western ‘foreigner ‘ such as Yemeni , Palestinian or Filipino. White skinned Franks do better in terms of getting a fair trial .

    ‘I agree with RS the Saddam regime had nothing on the saudi’s ‘

    I don’t – 6 county prod is correct .The facts and numbers show that Hussein’s pre war ‘genocide’ against the Kurds and his tyrannical rule over the Shiite majority have caused more ‘human misery’ and deaths than anything which happened in Saudi Arabia .

  • Greenflag

    Steve

    ‘Cleaning up the mess they themselves made? ‘

    There was a mess before coalition forces invaded Iraq . It’s just a different kind of ‘mess’ now . Shiite’s (the majority) rule with the help of western military aid – 2 million have fled the country (predominantly Sunnis ) and the three main ethnic groups Kurds, Sunnis, and Shiites have never been more divided .

    I don’t believe that longer term the coalition can ‘win’ in Iraq . The Iraq ‘Shiites’ are much closer to the Iranians in terms of beliefs and politics than they are to either Sunnis , Kurds or Americans.

    As for ‘exporting ‘ democracy to Iraq . Iraq is not Germany post WW2 nor Japan post 1945 .

    Those who planned this invasion did so based on false premises and facts . Thus the present mess. The ‘surge’ may have helped temporarily but longer term can the USA afford this level of engagement . American voters think not . With oil at 145 dollars a barrel up from 28 dollars a barrel when Pres Bush took office – most Republicans in the USA are looking for a spot between a rock and a hard place come November .

  • POL
  • 6countyprod

    POL, your out of date (and highly dubious – eg Lancet) facts and figures nevertheless reflect the fact that the majority of deaths in the war have occurred as a result of the Sunni insurgency against the coalition and Iraqi people.

    Thankfully, however, as the main thrust of this thread shows, these Sunni, non-Qaeda, Iraqis have, like SF/IRA -who maintained a 30 year campaign of violence resulting in over 3500 deaths- realised the futility of terrorism, and are willing to try politics instead. They wised up a lot quicker than SF/IRA.

    The FARC hopefully will be the next ‘freedom fighters’ to give up their armed struggle, again thanks to US support for the democatic process in Columbia.

  • Steve

    Lord I think he jumped the shark

  • RepublicanStones

    Greenflag considering the western media is where we mainly got facts and figures pertaining to saddams regime, and the fact the we are not afforded the same level of information about the activities of the house of Saud, because they are ‘on our side’, coupled with its wahabbist branch of islam running the country and the fact that Saddam ran a secular society, imperfect as it was. I still disagree with you.