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A meeting of minds: Sean and Iris

on 18 June 2008 , 3:09 pm 48 | 1 views

Conventional wisdom in Northern Ireland would put Iris Robinson and Sean Brady at either end of a political/religious spectrum. Last week on Hearts and Minds, Malachi O’Doherty begged to differ.

  • billie-Joe Remarkable

    Malachi O’Doherty slates Catholic Church SHOCKA!!!!

  • Different Drummer

    Well Malachi

    To say ‘catholic church does it too’ makes no difference what so ever to what Iris and the DUP have done and will continually do.

    One think I note you do not note, is that Iris and the DUP are in government the Catholic Church and Mr Close are not.

  • Greenflag

    Having listened to Malachy O’Doherty and yer man Newt Emerson I believe we may have here the ‘dream ticket’ to drag NI into the 20th century 🙂

    Malachy for FM and Newt for DFM anyone ?

    To disssociate themselves from the standard unionist and nationalist parties already established they would of course need to form a new party with no sectarian overtones ?

    How about the CPNI ?

    (Cantankerous Party of Norn Iron )? 🙂

  • Spanishroomscrumpy

    Thanks for this Mick.

    Billie-Joe — of course Malachi’s views on the hypocrisy of the Catholic church are well-known but it’s a telling point he makes here. How many people, nominally Catholic, have been having a good go at Iris on these pages but still give legitimacy to the church of Cardinal Brady by attending mass, however sporadically?

    In the clip we hear the views of a professed agnostic who has long since left the church and so who can, without hypocrisy, object to the views of Iris R *and* Cardinal Brady.

    I’ve a feeling that many who have been sneering at Iris can’t say the same.

  • Peat Blog

    It doesn’t matter that the RC Church is not in government. Malachi’s point was also that Baby Face and other politicians rarely castigate a church of which they are nominally members, and are happy to attend ceremonies etc, but which institutionally holds many of the same view as Virus Robinson (although they are not so stupid to put it in the way that she did!).

  • Different Drummer

    Spanishroomdrinker

    I and many others have been saying ‘the same’ for a very long time and I can say that people are listening and agreeing now when thirty years ago they didn’t. Now after the Save Ulster form Sodomy campaign and a whole host of successful opposition to bigotry. We do have a lot more supporters for a liberal democracy than before and that goes for all the ex-NI nations too – Scotland, Wales, England and the ROI have **socially** changed for the better.

    But it was never easy and it never will be easy here – especially if Iris goes. Then the thugs will be thinking about putting their best kicking boots on. Then we will need all the support we can get.

    So far people here have been grand – better than we could have expected and I hope that will have a real effect and reduce the among of violent scum ready to hurt or kill for Iris.

  • Different Drummer

    Peatbog

    I think the problem with SF and Iris is that SF are at this very moment telling their gay activists to ‘cool it’ why because the don’t want to upset the Stormont apple cart and that takes precedence over any ‘catholic’ beliefs.

  • Peat Blog

    Different Drummer:

    I’m sure they are cooling it as the media seem quite happy to make the running anyway and perhaps the Theocratic Unionist Party will go easier on Ourselves Alone over some other issue. We have a schizophrenic and unaccountable executive with NO effective opposition. AARGH!!!

  • Different Drummer

    No opposition can’t say that’s true.

    Sammy Morse’s metal is yet to be tested.

    And what will Sammy be saying:

    1. If Iris stays that means SF are ineffective
    2. If she goes and is replaced with another ‘Iris’ then that means SF are ineffective.
    3. That we need a rainbow coalition in government.

    But all that will soon be academic why?

    Because with their new support from No10 the DUP are now in a position to move on to one party rule and Iris has advanced that goal.

    Poor Jim Alister will have to get his finger out if he is serious about being an alternative reactionary force within NI politics.

  • Greenflag

    peat bog ,

    ‘We have a schizophrenic and unaccountable executive with NO effective opposition. AARGH!!!

    Perhaps given the nature of the NI State itself this is the ONLY way it (NI) can be governed .

    You had more or less the same thing 1920 through 1972 .Just substitute the present schizoid tendencies for the more paranoid symptoms of 20th century unionism and that’s what you had back then . The point could now (2008) be made that not only does NI now have have a schizophrenic and unaccountable executive with NO effective opposition. as per peat bog and his AARGH!!! but to make matters worse given the two party carve up a DOUBLE dose of paranoia ?

    There is perhaps a slim hope that the double dose will cancel each other out and the patient may survive without opposition . But it’s already clear that this patient is not too keen on ‘accountability’ unless of course it means pointing the finger at themuns 🙁

  • Peat Blog

    This place is ungovernable in a democratic sense and could not survive on its own without massive subvention (from whatever muppet is willing to pay). I think the economic downturn will test the Norn Iron Government of all the Telentless most of all (not that they can do much anyway about the economy if poor wee Gordon can’t in London).

    Jim (‘ll Fix It) Alister has no chance as the man lacks charisma and he doesn’t have the Good Book and a dog collar to tempt the more literal minded members of what passes for society here (unlike Papa Doc in the good ‘oll days).

    Got to say it but I’m a bit schizoid about the whole thing. Having a local administraton is the only way that things can get better as we have a much better chance of separating the wheat from the chavs. BUT, I wish we were already in that future utopia as we wouldn’t have to put up with all this crap…

  • Peat Blog

    PS. Hear that big Sammy (code name Agent Orange) will make is first big announcement pretty soon…

  • Different Drummer

    Green Flag

    I think the finger pointing at ‘themuns’ is shifting to those inside the DUP and SF who want the OLD party back.

    In the DUP it is those who think it is not reactionary enough and inside SF it is being pointed that those who are too liberal.

    Either way Sinn Fein will be the losers as the DUP grows into what Newton Emerson called ‘brain eating monsters’.

    I think everyone here has done their best but it is always the biggest bigot who wins here.

  • billie-Joe Remarkable

    Malachi O’Doherty is a fearless, brave reporter – he said so himself on here during the Squinter/Adams face-off. He has made a career of his anti-republicanism (fine by me) and his anti-Catholicism (fine by me, too). You hardly need to be brave to have a go at any Church these days and he bangs on about it all the time. That’s all I was saying.

    The Iris issue is not that other churches agree with her but that so many ‘ordinary’ people in Northern Ireland do.

  • Different Drummer

    Yes Bille-Joe

    This way to Ulster Uber Alles

  • Greenflag

    different drummer ,

    ‘Yes Bille-Joe This way to Ulster Uber Alles ‘

    Just keep to the far right Billie Joe and follow those little hairy lads to the cliff edge or would that be the Tallahatchee Ridge ? When they jump make sure to follow their example . Believe me they know what they’re doing . It’s called follow the leader even if he or she is blind , deaf, dumb and as thick as two planks . Don’t worry about ‘gravity’ . Look upon the descent as intelligent ‘falling’.

    It’s wriiten in the Bible that the Lord will save his own so you should be okay.

    Don’t forget to send us all a postcard from the ‘far side ‘ .

  • billie-Joe Remarkable

    OK an apology. When I say “fine by me” in both instances I mean it’s fine by me if that’s her view. It makes her an odious bigot but hey, who around here didn’t know that already. And who expects her or her ilk to change. Not me. A badly expressed point. mea culpa

  • Harry Flashman

    Has a billie-joe post been deleted from this thread? I can’t see what he has said that has aroused such passionate ire from DD and GF to imply that he’s a Nazi or that he should jump off a cliff.

    When posts are deleted it would be helpful if the mods could indicate such.

  • I am uneasy with labels and no more like being called anti-catholic than catholic.

    What does the word catholic mean? For most who accept it as a description of themselves it no longer means obeisance to a church institution and its laws. So I often find myself in agreement with catholics when I criticise the teaching of the church, say when the Pope wants Catholic teaching on the family enshrined in law in African states.

    I work in religious affairs journalism as much as in any other field. I often find myself at mass for friends getting married or being buried – the latter with increasing frequency as I get older. I do not go along to sneer but to participate. As with Republicans, with their conspiratorial cast of mind, who tend to attribute a political or careerist motivation to my political thoughts, so it is that the ones who define me as anti catholic tend to make their minds up about me without reading the stuff closely enough to find anything other than what affirms their understanding of me.
    The same thing happens over at CiF where, every time I raise a religious issue, I get branded as a Catholic fundamentalist and a creationist.
    Eoghan Harris went on CiF to warn people that I am a closet Catholic. Work that out!
    I’m always trying to say that religion is more interesting than the loudest debate.

  • Harry Flashman

    “What does the word catholic mean?”

    It means a follower of the church of which the supreme head is the Pope in Rome.

    “For most who accept it as a description of themselves it no longer means obeisance to a church institution and its laws.”

    Then they are not Catholics.

    Anyone who wishes to practise a Christian religion without following the unconditional rules of the Catholic Church in Rome but rather in accordance with their own moral values is free to do so.

    Millions of Christians in Ireland have being doing just that for centuries.

    We generally refer to them as “protestants”.

  • Harry,
    would those “protestants” be anti-catholics, given that they have been baptised in the catholic church and rejected its unconditional teachings?

    But I agree with you. However most Irish catholics do not accept the unconditional teachings of the church but neither do they define themselves as non catholic by virtue of that, nor are the clergy telling them that they should. Fundamentalist catholicism, coming from the top, stops with the bishops.
    Catholicism, as the laity understand it, is a religious culture and a tradition. I am a catholic in the way that Woody Allen is a jew.

    Cahtolics today are like the employees of a huge global enterprise, who enjoy that membership but don’t read the mission statement; they’re like most of us using our couputers, we click the ‘accept’ button on the terms and conditions, but don’t read them.

  • kensei

    malachi

    Catholicism, as the laity understand it, is a religious culture and a tradition. I am a catholic in the way that Woody Allen is a jew.

    It is more than that. There is a “Catholic culture” and tradition” but it is separate from the religion. That doesn’t mean that you have to be a complete fundamentalist, as even the Catholic Church has get out clauses these days for personal conscience (thanks, Prods!)

    Cahtolics today are like the employees of a huge global enterprise, who enjoy that membership but don’t read the mission statement; they’re like most of us using our couputers, we click the ‘accept’ button on the terms and conditions, but don’t read them.

    You are generalising much too heavily. There is a spread of attitudes, and a spread of participation. I don’t think things are so monolithic yet. And Catholics tend to go through vast amounts of Catholic education, and tend to absorb more of the “mission statement” than you’d think. Opposition to abortion would be one area.

  • Fair points Kensei

  • When posts are deleted it would be helpful if the mods could indicate such.

    There’s a new fangled thing called ‘pop music’ these days, Harry, but you might find it a little loud for your tastes. Suffice to say, Philly Joe Remarkable would never be seen near Tallahatchie Bridge – he is too busy hanging out on the corner of Heart Attack and Vine. Billie Joe McAllister would be the one jumping off of Tallahatchie Bridge.

    And Catholics tend to go through vast amounts of Catholic education, and tend to absorb more of the “mission statement” than you’d think. Opposition to abortion would be one area.

    Depends on the context. Italy, Spain, Portugal, Czech Republic, etc., all have legal abortion, and I think a fairly clear majority of nominal Catholics are pro-abortion in America. Ireland is the abortion exception.

  • Harry Flashman

    For we self absorbed Irish being a ‘Catholic’ is something we are born into, it is the very core of our identity and we could no more renounce Catholicism than we could our parents or our nation but that is besides the point, being a Catholic is not about membership of a particular Irish tribe.

    Catholicism is a very real concept and if you cannot abide by the teachings of the church you must do the decent thing and leave, if you feel the church’s teachings regarding sexual morality to be repugnant then I think you will find there are several liberal Anglican or Methodist congregations which will appeal to you and who would be more than willing to welcome you into their fold.

    If however you wish to continue to regard yourself as a Catholic in the very real meaning of the term – and it has a universal meaning way beyond the shores of the Emerald Isle – well in the words of the great sage Gay Byrne “ya join the army ya wears the boots”, not complicated at all.

    You’re either a Catholic or you’re not, the choice is yours.

  • Harry Flashman

    Sammy, could you explain what on earth you were saying to me, who is “Philly” joe? I see only posts by someone called billie-joe

  • ggn

    Some interesting comments.

    My oul fella is a marxist with a strong and frankly irrational hatred of Catholicism and quite often of Catholics.

    He also agrees with almost every moral teaching of the church and would probably be described by many as a Catholic.

    Perhaps there is no real escape.

  • You’re right; I made the choice. I’m not a catholic.

    But is there any harm in observing, as you appear to yourself, that many others have a more flexible, sense of what the word Catholic means?

  • kensei

    Sammy

    Depends on the context. Italy, Spain, Portugal, Czech Republic, etc., all have legal abortion, and I think a fairly clear majority of nominal Catholics are pro-abortion in America. Ireland is the abortion exception.

    I don’t think there is clear evidence that a majority of Catholics in America are pro-abortion: and I’d considered generalising for a such a geographically and politically diverse country. The question isn’t about majorities either, it is about the overall prevalence of the opinion within a population. But I could be wrong.

  • Spanishroomscrumpy

    HF:

    “Catholicism is a very real concept and if you cannot abide by the teachings of the church you must do the decent thing and leave,”

    Well I suppose it is a very real *concept* except that it’s all made up isn’t it?
    Transubstantiation, the ascension of Mary, papal infallibility – none of these are found in the New Testament, which itself was made up by men telling a story about what the Old Testament really meant. So Catholic doctrine is a story about a story about a story – by that standard the existence of Harry Potter should be taught as historical fact and we should crown him King on High while we’re about it.

    Anyway I don’t think adherents ever thought too much about doctrine; even at the height of the church’s influence over the daily life of Irish people it seems to be have accepted as just one of the conditions of existence, to be endured as part and parcel of life on the island, like the damp and the cold.

    What I find hopeful about the video clip that started all this is that I perceive that a question is being asked along the lines of “what if Catholic
    doctrine *wasn’t* just “gone along with” for the sake of public occasions and cultural identity, but actively challenged more often?

    Because good things can happen when stupid beliefs are challenged.

    In Canada we’ve had gay marriages for five years now, the sky hasn’t fallen, our society is the healthier for it, and the change happened in part because a lot of Catholics (and Anglicans) pressed on with calling for the right thing to be done despite what the church said – in effect calling their church’s bluff.

    What happened is that after about six months the pulpits stopped raging about it because church goers could plainly see that when their gay neighbours and workmates got married it really wasn’t such a horrible thing after all.

    The Sunday-morning blusterers knew that they were being tuned out, and moved on to other topics. But they lost some legitimacy along the way.

    So Catholics that have for the most part decided to ignore the Church’s teachings anyway (in other words, most Catholics) could do useful work by actively opposing the doctrinal dictates of the Sean Bradys of the world,instead of meekly showing up to pay respects to whatever new honour the church lays upon them.

  • noel adams

    Law Lords V Iris
    Maybe a bit of post but it occured to me after yesterdays rule change on adoption,could Iris be Chair overseing the first gay adoption in N.Ireland.

  • Greenflag

    billie joe -remarkable ,

    It happens

    You are forgiven – go and sin no more:)

    Penance – 5,000 Hail Mary’s, 4,000 Our Fathers’ , 3,000 Glory Be’s and a months abstinence from copulation 🙂

    As to Robinson’s views on curing gays . She’s entitled to her views as you say and if she is elected by the people that’s their prerogative . It’s not fine by me but I accept that not everybody may be up to date with the latest findings of medical psychologists in the field of the ‘differently’ gendered .

    BTW re the cliff edge – please don’t jump

  • Greenflag

    sammy morse ,

    ‘Ireland is the abortion exception.’

    Legally you are correct but in terms of actual practice Irish women (North and South ) have no problem in making use of our geographical proximity to the UK to make use of their ‘abortion ‘ services . Call this hypocritical if you will but it’s seen here as an Irish solution to one of our Irish problems .
    Remember there was no sex in ireland before the Late Late Show as per Oliver J Flanagan . We were all apparently conceived by immaculate conception ?:)

    I think public opinion is changing in this area in the Republic- from outright objection to allowing it for those circumstances when a mother’s life is endangered and /or where the unborn would be severely handicapped etc. But I don’t see us having it on demand.

    I suspect that if worded properly another referendum on aborton would be passed probably 70-30 .

  • Different Drummer

    FlashHarry on Catholicism

    Well I think all the doctrine you outline has the touch of the illogical about it forsure and has been used to torture and destroy people. So has protestant doctrine.

    Malachi says that Catholicism is not one thing – very true it is also true for Protestantism as an historical force.

    Cromwell (no small fry now) was a reactionary republican not a good historical role model…

    William 111 had a lot going for him besides being supported by the Pope….He came to power after a Dutch revolution that threw out the Spanish Empire. And what made this tiny group of provinces think it could beat a super power – why the execution of Catholics that had tried to negotiate with the King of Spain to enable freedom of worship. Why on earth would we here in never never land want to remember them?

    Well if it was good enough for King Billy, Schiller and Beethoven is should be good enough for us. Maybe were just not up to it -yet…

  • Different Drummer

    Back to Iris’s Is She The Turner Who Can’t Be Turned?

    Sammy Morse not sure how far you and your brethren will be allowed to run with this one. I’m interested in the likely hood of someone above you saying she is given a fools pardon “can we move on please…”

    I hear her best known gay activist constituent an ex-policeman is seriously starting to loose it as he is now making a lot of noise that the laws against hate crime are worthless.

    We will see…

  • Harry Flashman

    None of the above posts (with the exception of Malachi’s simple acceptance of my very simple point) change the situation.

    You may think the teachings of the Catholic church are twaddle, you may feel that they are mindless reactionaries, that’s all very well.

    My point is simple if you decide you don’t like the teachings of the Catholic church, leave it, don’t cling to it as a tribal security blanket. You support abortion, gay marriage, contraception and divorce? Good for you, how terribly liberal and modern of you, congratulations you’re not a Catholic any more.

    You are a protestant. Enjoy your new religion.

  • Spanishroomscrumpy

    HF

    Except that there are many in the church itself hoping you’ll stay no matter how liberal your views.

    Mind, they’d like you to keep your mouth shut about women, homosexuals, etc — but they desperately need to make up the numbers somehow, and so for sexual mores and practices ‘don’t ask don’t tell” is the clear order of the day. Just consider the fact that the rate of childbirth in “Catholic Canada” ( Quebec) is lower than the rest of the country. No one in Quebec has been excommunicated yet for what is obviously near universal practice – artificial birth control.

    I imagine the church is girding itself against they day they know is coming — someday in the next few decades — when a government somewhere will have the bottle to say:
    “Look you claim to represent x percent of the population but we’re doing our own head count here and we’re never seeing more than about 17 people at mass in a churches built for 800- that’s no basis for continuing the state funding of denominational schools and having to take on board your reactionary views every time we’re trying to protect the rights of women or homosexuals (or rape victims, or people who need contraception, etc etc,) in this society”

    And then too, what if it’s not just Catholic doctrine people think is a bit fanciful, but the idea of God him/herself?

    Not much point jumping ship to Protestantism there. They might even take God more seriously – some of the Evangelical bent even demand their followers have a “personal relationship with Jesus Christ”

    In any case the proof that religious affiliation has little or even nothing to do with acceptance of doctrine is clear when we look at conflict in Northern Ireland, which had such frightening effect precisely because religion is not considered as a belief system but rather as an ethnicity.

    You can disavow until you are blue in the face but that doesn’t seem to help you much when you’re the only Patrick on a train full of Billys coming home from the match.

    Getting back to my previous point I think that since it is the case that the Catholic church now needs its nominal adherents more than they need the church,these nominal adherents are in a perfect position to see to it that those who claim to speak for them – the Bradys etc. – exercise far more caution before they take extreme positions – positions like kicking Amnesty International out of schools, for example.

    And to be consistent, they might do that, start “at home” as it were, before, or at least concurrently, with dismay or opposition expressed about the views of the likes of Mrs. Robinson.

  • Harry Flashman

    “No one in Quebec has been excommunicated yet for what is obviously near universal practice – artificial birth control.”

    By practising artificial birth control they automatically excommunicate themselves, they may continue to attend Mass and the sacraments and may call themselves Catholics but they aren’t.

    It may come as a shock but people have been predicting the imminent demise of the Roman Catholic Church for pretty much its entire two thousand year existence.

    Stalin mockingly asked when informed about condemnation from the Pope, “The Pope? How many divisions does he have? Ho ho”.

    Can anyone tell me the name of the current general secretary of the Russian Communist Party?

    (As a matter of record I am no longer a Catholic, unlike others I believe that if you cannot abide by the teachings of a church you can no longer consider yourself to be a member.)

  • Greenflag

    harry the flashman,

    ‘You support abortion, gay marriage, contraception and divorce? Good for you, how terribly liberal and modern of you, congratulations you’re not a Catholic any more.

    You are a protestant. Enjoy your new religion.
    ‘

    Eh ? Last time I heard Mr Paisley was anti abortion and anti gay marriage . American evangelicals are also very much anti abortion and anti gay marriage even more so than Catholics .

    So what you are now saying is that not all protestants are protestant on top of your comment that not all catholics are catholics . So what’s your position on Islam ?

    In an earlier post you wrote you were a Muslim or a convert to that faith IIRC ? Now you may hae been taken in by the heavenly islamic magician’s promise of 72 virgins for your post mortem pleasure, but the important question is are you up to it ? Moreover what will the missus have to say when she crosses over after you ? Does she get the option of 72 fit young males ?

    All religions have irrational ‘beliefs’. Christians had to believe the Earth was the centre of the universe under pain of a stake burning just a few centuries ago.

    As you are a ‘newly’ converted Muslim can I ask you what you feel is the appropriate punishment for adulterers ? Do you prefer the traditional stone throwing to death by a mob or would you be in favour of the high tech approach i.e the truck load of bricks and stones hoisted into a hole in the ground over the ‘criminal adulterers’? How about the lopping off of hands for those guilty of theft ?

    Also if you don’t believe in either of these ‘punishments ‘ does this mean you are not a Muslim but an ex Muslim ?

  • Greenflag

    spanishroomscrumpy,

    ‘Except that there are many in the church itself hoping you’ll stay no matter how liberal your views.’

    And the reason has little to do with ‘faith’ but everything to do with market branding and revenue streaming . When it comes down to the wire with ‘religion’ all denominations -it’s the oldest and easiest profession in the world for enabling the ‘heavenly magicians’ to part suckers from their money by promising them something which they can’t guarantee, can’t deliver and more importantly can never be sued for purveying fraudulent promises and non delivery of purchased product because the client can’t return to complain . When you really think about it it’s the best con going and more lucrative than cross border oil smuggling ? well maybe 🙁

  • Harry Flashman

    My, my GF, so many questions, my Islam comes from the fact that my missus is of that faith and if I wanted to get married to her I had to convert.

    I did so, I don’t pray five times a day, I booze like a fish and given the chance I’ll wolf down a bacon sarnie at a second’s notice provided she who must be obeyed doesn’t catch me.

    Now try to control your anger against all religions, me personally I couldn’t give a stuff but my point is a simple one (actually my points are always simple but that never stops you flying off in a foam flecked rant about what you think I’m saying) if you claim you’re a Catholic then there are certain rules you gotta abide by, if you don’t like them then find another religion that does suit you.

    Not too complicated, even for you Greenflag old chum.

    By the way you haven’t told us about how “rapture’ is taking over the entire United States lately, why not?

    Have you figured that it’s all a load of nonsense yet?

  • Different Drummer

    “Stalin mockingly asked when informed about condemnation from the Pope, “The Pope? How many divisions does he have? Ho ho”.

    Yes but he had one in Ireland and one in England when it counted – now that’s cause for celebration **now** isn’t it.

  • Greenflag

    harryflashman,

    ‘my GF, so many questions,’

    But no answers from HF other than what would appear to be an admission to being a self confessed ‘honest ‘ hypocrite when it comes to religion- both your own original denomination and the one you’ve ‘converted’ to .

    You have my sympathy HF – I’m sure your missus is a fine woman even if she does’nt make a bacon sarnie. Alas for me that would be grounds for divorce 🙂 As for any religion insisting I must convert to marry one of theirs – sorry no can do. I accept however that others would not be of the same mindset as I in that regard .

    ‘Have you figured that it’s all a load of nonsense yet? ‘

    If you mean ‘religion’ a long time ago.

    As for ‘rapture’ ? It appears to be directly related to the overall decline in the Republican evangelical base and the increasing numbers of closure’s of ‘christian book shops’ across the USA . Whether this is due to a decreasing faith in the possibility of a ‘rapturous ‘ rescue from an economy mired in economic recession, war , housing market meltdown , 135 dollars a barrel oil ,etc etc is not yet clear .

  • Harry Flashman

    The most difficult part of the “conversion” (in much the same way as my heathen English sailor uncle “converted” to Catholicism to marry my aunt) is indeed the inability to eat bacon sarnies (well that and getting circumcised, fuck that hurt).

    I respect my good lady’s red line on that issue, she doesn’t mind the drinking, the lack of praying, even my support for Israel but NO pork, that’s the killer and trust me when Muslims talk about things being a ‘killer’ you pay attention.

  • Different Drummer

    Candid – Flashing Harry

    And then…back To The Muslims….

    “When Muslims talk about things being a ‘killer’ you pay attention.”

    Candid Drumming

    It’s no accident that born again Loyalist reactionaries have some insight into theocratic authoritorism they think radicals have not and can not oppose the ideas and actions of religious death cults.

  • Harry Flashman

    I’m not sure I follow you DD but never mind I did want to point out Peter Hitchens’ post last week on his Mail On Sunday blog where he makes the point I was making earlier that he is not opposed to homosexuality per se but that homosexuality is not actually the issue rather its co-option into the Trot agenda.

    The relevant quote is as follows (I’d do a link but I’m hopeless at these things);

    “This isn’t really about homosexuals, a small minority in our society .I really don’t want to discuss homosexuality here, or the reasons why Christians (or anyone else) might regard homosexual acts as wrong. It’s rather boring, it makes people bitter, and it isn’t, actually, the point. It’s part of a bait-and-switch trick in which the real centre of the argument is snatched out of sight while the gullible audience’s attention is diverted.”

  • Spanishroomscrumpy

    Ah yes, Peter Hitchens.

    “Anyone trying to do anything to do improve the lot of any group gets my snort of contempt, after all they are all Trots like I was once so I know what they’re really about etc etc.”

    Superb humour value in one of his recent though- that bit about how much more meaningful it is to go and get yourself blown up by a roadside bomb in Basra then it is to live a boring suburban (and Daily Mail-reading, no doubt) life in the home counties was a gem, I must say.

    I often think the editorial line of the Mail is predicated on asking “what would Basil Fawlty make of this development?”.

    The problem for PH’s humour quotient is that pandering to the Fawlties of middle England is never half as funny as taking the piss out of them – John Cleese sussed that 35 years ago.

  • Different Drummer

    Flashing Again

    “earlier that he is not opposed to homosexuality per se but that homosexuality is not actually the issue rather its co-option into the Trot agenda.”

    As I said – as per numerious posts if you think that is an accurate indication of the ideological relationship between the left (or what the ‘trots’ think) and the gay movement you really do need a reality check.

    Hitch is not the right place to find out what has been going on about this issue he left the ‘trots’ many years ago.

    (is this another case of flasher ‘uniformity’).

    Hitch presents one type of evidence in the interests of balance here is an other:

    A high Ulster tory decides to take the British government to the european court of human rights becuase of the personal damage to his private life caused by his un-equal legal status – and wins.

    He is one of the provinces most vocal trot haters.

    Flasher you Know Jack Sh-one-T about the topic.