9 vote margin

The government have won the House of Commons vote on extending the possible detention of terrorist suspects to 42 days by 315 votes to 306. That’s a margin of just 9 votes. No wonder the DUP were in demand today. I didn’t catch what happened to Bill Cash’s amendment. Adds Relating to Bill Cash’s amendment

Veteran former Labour MP Tony Benn said: “I never thought I would be in the House of Commons on the day Magna Carta was repealed”.

And Michael White notes an uncomfortable comparison for Gordon Brown. Update The DUP deny their votes were bought. But as Mick suggests at Brassneck, nevermind the moolah, there are other considerations in play. Namely threats over the devolution of policing and justice powers.

, , , ,

  • David Hamilton

    So the DUP voted for it?

  • Pete Baker
  • David Hamilton

    I see they did. Sad day.

  • heck

    what did they get in return?

  • The Raven

    Heck….not my vote, anyway….!

  • I don’t believe the DUP were ever going to vote against the 42 day detention period – they sure did make some headlines and the next few days will put more focus on the DUP and Robinson.

    It will also be interesting to watch the Conservative Party reaction and relationship with the DUP. May come back to hunt the DUP.

  • Elvis parker

    Local Tories seem remarkably restrained:
    http://www.conservativesni.com
    Check out Ben Brogan
    http://broganblog.dailymail.co.uk/

  • Comrade Stalin

    This is entirely consistent with DUP policy and is not surprising at all. It’s their “tough line on terrorism” thing. The DUP are not a civil liberties party.

  • It will also be interesting to watch the Conservative Party reaction and relationship with the DUP. May come back to hunt the DUP.

    This, I think, is the most interesting aspect. The DUP put a short-term relationship with Brown above a longer-term relationship with the Tories. Since Brown’s days are probably numbered, and the future looks blue, one has to wonder why.

    What have they extracted from Brown that trumps what they might have got from the tories? Especially since the Lords are vlikely to block the 42 day detention bill anyway, so it is very symbolic.

  • Elvis parker

    How did Hermon vote?

  • King John

    The DUP should be ashamed of themselves. This is a gross violation of the liberties upon which this nation was founded. Let’s look forward to the Lords throwing this out, and if imposed on us by the Govt, the Tories repealing this pernicious legislation and suitably punishing the DUP.

  • RepublicanStones

    As if the DUP were going to ever vote against this bill. Im sure we’ll see them in the news with little furrowed brows all scrunched up saying ‘they thought long about this’ , ‘it may seem alot but…’

  • interested

    If the DUP were/are interested in exerting influence and using that to get concessions their chances may well be much better in the next two years than after a General Election.

    As the Tories get stronger the chances of a hung parliament recede and therefore the DUP may not be able to exert as much influece as once thought after the next election.

    Ensuring the security of the UK is hardly a tough thing to sell either.

    P.S.
    Hermon voted Yes too

  • USA

    Hermon voted in favour also.
    However, I agree with my honorable Comrade, I don’t see why this is a difficult vote for the DUP. Indeed I would have been more suprised had they voted against it. Am I missing a nuance of the bill?

  • Joe

    Elvis, Lady H voted for 42 days, according to the BBC.

  • Doctor Who

    The whole vote became party political. The tory no vote was motivated by inflicting a defeat on the government, not by the issues of the bill.

    Strange republican stones finds himself in bed with the torry´s, although given the headlines of the last few day´s that might not be a good analogy.

  • The Raven

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7447212.stm carries an interesting story of a wrongful arrest. I thought the BBC interviewer’s questioning was bordering on the insulting.

    Anyway, it’ll divert nicely from Iris for a few days. And it gives Sammy enough time to put out a tender for the provision of a nuclear power station.

    Why 42 days? Only six people have ever been held close to the 28 day limit. Only two of those were actually charged.

    As an aside, I’m occasionally a bit of a comics nerd. At this point, I’d like to refer to Alan Moore’s “V for Vendetta”. It was written during Thatcher’s era; increasingly it seems more and more pertinent to today.

  • ZoonPol

    How does this break down with the other EU Member States?

  • interested

    The Raven
    I find the whole “why bring it in, no-one’s ever been held that long” argument strange.

    If its not going to be used then what’s the point?

    On the other hand, the DUP get (list concessions here) for their vote and what does Hermon get?

    Well I’ll leave the rumours of what Sylv gets from Labour MPs for others to fill in.

  • king John

    USA – you’d only be missing a nuance of the Bill, if it had any! It doesn’t. The number 42 is arbitrary, the concessions given make it unworkable at best. It undoubtedly contravenes the Human Rights Act and the ECHR.
    The DUP’s decision is entirely political and about what they can extract from the Government.
    They may not be a civil liberties party, but they opposed internment, which is what this amounts to in all but name.
    They and “liberal” Lady Hermon should ashamed to have supported this Bill. As Tony Benn so eloquently put it “I never thought I would be in the House of Commons on the day Magna Carta was repealed”.

  • RepublicanStones

    Why is it strange that im against 42 day detention? Sure im with Kevin Myers on the Lisbon vote, politics these days is throwing up alot of strange bedfellows.

  • ZoonPol
  • Inspector Cleauso

    Sylvia Who?

  • The Raven

    Interested – in response to your question…

    I dunno how many people have been held for suspected terrorist offences, but in this fear-filled repressive era since 9/11, I’d say it’s a few.

    With only 6 held up to a point of being “close” to the existing 28 day limit, I have to say that I find extending it to 42 days….well….strange…

    Indeed, if it’s not going to get used….why bring it in?

  • Joe

    ZoonPol, I’m no fan of Major, but that was an excellent link, and hats off to the man for not playing the “don’t talk to me about the dangers of terrorism, I had f***ing mortars fired into my garden” card.

  • Granni Trixie

    I still have enough faith in the people of NI to think that they will see this DUP action for what it is – selling out for (presumably) monetry gain. Over the next few days we will probably have to listen to sanctimonious Donaldson et al reassuring us of their integrity (voted to counter terrorism etc)blah,blah…

    At the next election lets note who voted for 42 days….and that SF, by not participating, also contributed to the result.

  • Not For Sale

    Interesting to see how when the vote was announced, the BBC Website reports the following:

    Cheers rang out earlier as the result was announced to a packed Commons chamber after a five-hour debate.

    But Conservative and Liberal Democrat backbenchers pointed angrily at the DUP benches in the chamber, with one member shouting: “You were bought!” before Speaker Michael Martin intervened to restore order.

    Then again selling out has been a popular trait of the DUP lately…

    the £100 per head dinner, a deal on Policing and Justice and how could we forget Seymour Sweeney…

    Is there anyone more corrupt than the DUP?

  • logi

    Strange that to defeat a terrorist threat from repressive cultures and backwards countries that the west starts to take away the freemdoms, liberties and honesty that makes them.

    A victory of Al Q and his friends..

  • Peter Doran

    Two messages went out from this region today.

    The “Democratic” Unionists raised the ‘for sale’ flag over our democratic institutions, and humilitated themselves (and their constituents). As the MPs on the floor of the House cried this afternoon: “you were bought”.

    At the High Court, six men were acquitted of charges arising from their actions to “decommission” the Raytheon defence software plant in Derry last year. They put their liberty on the line to resist war crimes. From day one, they sought to put Raytheon and the backers of illegal wars on trial.

  • Two messages went out from this region today.

    The “Democratic” Unionists raised the ‘for sale’ flag over our democratic institutions, and humilitated themselves (and their constituents).

    At the High Court, six men were acquitted of charges arising from their actions to “decommission” the Raytheon defence software plant in Derry last year. They put their liberty on the line to resist war crimes. From day one, they sought to put Raytheon and the backers of illegal wars on trial.

  • Doctor Who

    I would´ve thought had the DUP been bought, their votes would have been against the government. Perhaps the torries offered very little, as usual.

    If this had of been an open vote without political reprecussions for the govt. one would´ve fully expected the DUP to vote in the way they did.

    42 days, compulsory ID cards etc. we are witnessing the decline of our civil liberties.

  • Comrade Stalin

    This, I think, is the most interesting aspect. The DUP put a short-term relationship with Brown above a longer-term relationship with the Tories. Since Brown’s days are probably numbered, and the future looks blue, one has to wonder why.

    I don’t agree with this. The Tories have brought in plenty of similarly draconian legislation in their time, and had they been in government under similar circumstances to now, they’d be doing precisely what Brown did today – flagging themselves up as tough in terrorism in an effort to deflect from their incompetence at running the country.

    Secondly, since when has a government with a comfortable majority ever repaid debts to Northern Ireland parties who’ve helped them out of a jam ? When it comes to the crunch, the votes of our 18 MPs are irrelevant, except when the government’s majority is under threat.

  • George Orwell

    Don’t say i didn’t warn you !

  • pacman

    Compulsory ID cards? Presumably for England, SCotland and Wales but not for NI given that almost half the population are not British?

  • picador

    Brown makes the lying discredited Blair look like a statesman of the highest calibre. I hope Brian Cowen is on the fone to the authoritarian little weasel to find out what nasty little deal he cooked up with bigoted unionism.

  • Doctor Who

    pacman

    One of the proposals of the ID card is to use it when voting, are you saying if it was introduced to all of the UK, you would not have one and thus miss the chance to maybe one day vote NI out of the UK.

  • ulsterfan

    picador
    I hope Brown gets on to the phone to tell Cowen to repeal the powers of the Special Criminal Court where the statement of a Garda can put a person in prison for years never mind 42 days.
    The ROI should bring its human rights legislation up to the British standard before lecturing others.

  • O ye of limited memories …

    It’s barely a twelve month since there were Tories and others prepared to support a 90-day detention. Today, perversely, they voted against even 42.

    I cannot see how any British Government, in the present climate, can refuse to support a request of this kind from its securocrats. Nor are comparisons with all other European states valid: their views and policies may — indeed will — change as soon as they become targets.

    Nay-sayers might usefully pause and consider just how closely related many of the recent terror plots seem to have been. The issue is not whether there is evidence to charge a suspect after three, seven, twenty-eight or whatever days. As I understand, the police have that weight of evidence within as many minutes. What matters is that, once a charge is laid, the suspect has greater freedoms to avoid further questioning. That is where Ms Chakrabarti and commonsense diverge. Had extended detention been possible on previous occasions, connections to other, later plots and to other persons not detained would likely have become obvious. We were quick to blame the securocrats for not establishing those links: can we also deny them the means to do better in future?

    A clean liberal conscience is a nice warming feeling; but for once the tabloid press, and the general public mood have it right. The right of my wife and family, and millions like us, safely to use the London underground and British airports is superior to the rights of a few individuals to exploit present law.

    The DUP, despite the last minute theatricals, were doing the proper thing, in policy as well as short-term advantage. The Opposition Tories were, and are playing partisan politics: but don’t worry — in a similar situation the Tory Whips will be prepared to pay the Ulster pipers in even-more devalued currency. Politics is a grubby business.

    If the Lords now crap on the Bill from any height, that, too, is immaterial in political terms. As soon as the next atrocity comes along (as we all sense it surely will), the fingers will not point quite as easily at the Labour Government. Gordon Brown’s approach here has been a two-way safe bet: he gets the Bill, or he gets a substantial fig-leaf. That is why, whatever pledges are forthcoming now, an Act would not be repealed or let lapse by an incoming Government.

    I reckon that the plaque on the Top Desk no longer reads: The buck stops here. For the last quarter-century the text has been: Today we were unlucky, but remember, we only have to be lucky once; you will have to be lucky always.

  • Belfast Gonzo

    That’s three correct predictions in the last week or so… the DUP backing the govt, Shoukri’s sentence and the storm in the teacup over nominating McGuinness.

    USA

    IIRC, the DUP voted against 90 day detention during the Blair govt, so they have form on this kind of thing.

    Raven

    Excellent graphic novel. Read it years ago, as well as Watchmen.

  • ZoonPol

    Joe there is something about Major that i respect but i will be damned if i know what: all i know is that i respected him.

  • BonarLaw

    The Tories who were shouting over their shoulders at the DUP have short memories- the Major government was supported by the UUP as it limped into history. Then the UUP didn’t extract a proper price, a mistake I trust the DUP has not repeated.

    If the polls are to be believed Cameron won’t require support in 2010 so the smart thing to do is use your leverage now when the opportunity arises. And if there is a Brown bounce back and Cameron is nine or twelve short of a working majority does anyone really think that tonights’ vote will stop him seeking the out the DUP in 18 months time?

    This was not a confidence vote, the Tories have gone from 90 to 42 days to oppose for the sake of opposition, the DUP may have extracted measures from the government that will benefit all sections of NI opinion and the Lords will kill this bill when it gets to the other place. All in all a good nights work.

    BTW Pacman that “almost” really rankles doesn’t it?

  • lamh dearg

    Good speech from Mark Durkan

  • Comrade Stalin

    Malcolm,

    Where do you draw the line ? Why don’t we throw you in jail. You look like a dodgy sort to me.

  • Pancho’s Horse

    Good long speech from Mark Durkan? Hopefully good bye speech soon.

  • earnan

    So when the catholic population in the 6 counties overtake the protestants and vote themselves out of the UK and the die hard unionists start bombing and killing, they will be held and interrogated for 42 days instead of 7? nice

  • Pete Baker

    There are a couple of updates to the original post.

  • esmereldavillalobos

    Have to agree with Stalin & USA – what, the DUP weren’t going to vote for the increase? If they’ve managed to extract something from Broon for voting for summat they were gonna vote for anyway, fair play to them (even if I did have to see McCrea sneering on the news tonight *shudder*).

    ZoonPol

    Thanks for the link and I have some admiration for Major too – I think I thought him an honest bloke. However, it’s a little disingenuous for him to start passing blame around on Iraq (the sequal) – if he had finished the job in ’91 when there were UN resolutions and a coalition and probably WMDs as well, it’s a bit of a leap but we may not be in as much of a mess today. He is dead right about 42 days and ID cards though.

  • South Belfast Concerned Resident

    I’m surprised no one has mentioned the real losers tonight – Sinn Fein.
    Forget the talk about £200m or £1.2bn I suspect that while you might hear some ‘noises’ from Woodward about the urgency of devolving policng and justice and Westminster’s ability to introduce an Irish Language Act there will be no action. That will have been at the top of the DUP list – and Brown will have happily agreed cos its no skin off his nose.
    Any extra money might be used to pay for a stadium – anywhere but at the Maze.
    There might even be extra money for Education as long as Sinn Fein allow academic selection. If they dont will Minister Dodds fund a Common Entrance Exam Trust?
    With SF’s MEP seat down South doomed and with SF with nothing left in its arsenal – literally and metaphorically – the only way is down for SF.
    Gerry Adams will retire by the end of the year

  • picador

    I hope Brown gets on to the phone to tell Cowen to repeal the powers of the Special Criminal Court where the statement of a Garda can put a person in prison for years never mind 42 days.

    Good response ulsterfan. You’ll be on about the Broy Harriers next.

  • picador

    At last someone has hit the nail on the head!

    The DUP met with Brown three times today. What did they really get? Will we ever find out?

    I suspect SBCR is largely correct. More money for the collective Norn Iron begging bowl AND the DUPs sectarian agenda advanced at the expense of nationalists.

    Once the Lisbon Treaty referendum is out of the way Cowen needs to demand answers of Brown. He has quite clearly played the Orange card to save his own skin and for that he must stand condemned. Why oh why do we have the misfortune to be governed by such charlatans!

  • Hermon voted Yes too

    She voted yes the last time, so no surprise. Sylvia is a New Labour hack and useless on civil liberties issues.

    The right of my wife and family, and millions like us, safely to use the London underground and British airports is superior to the rights of a few individuals to exploit present law.

    And so is Malcolm Redfellow. If a Tory government was bringing this legislation in, you’d be screaming from the rooftops. I use airports too, and I used London Underground daily for many years, and I have no less desire not to be blown up than your wife and children.

    As no-one wants to be blown up, and no-one in remotely mainstream political discourse supports Al-Qa’eda and its affiliates, this is a complete straw man of an argument. I do not believe this legislation will make me one jot safer and I do not think it is the role of a mature democracy to accede to every demand of the police and the interior ministry.

  • nineteensixtyseven

    Some great speeches from the likes of Dianne Abbott and Mark Durkan today. The DUP sold our liberties for 30 pieces of silver. I am most disappointed at Compass, and Jon Cruddas in particular. A disgraceful state of affairs.

  • George Orwell’s Ghost

    My sequel to 1984 is coming out soon !

  • nohindrince

    So yet again the sparsely populated piece of rock to the West represented by provisional government is the buyable pendulum in UK politics. It’s like the 80’s again. This will get interesting if the the recent outbursts of those associated with the pendulum enter the mainstream media.

  • truth and justice

    nineteensixtyseven

    You wont be saying that when you dont have to pay for your water.

  • Greagoir O Frainclin

    The old Orange Card played again? However it wont make a royal flush this time for the dealers.

    However this is only prolonging Brown’s unpopularity among the English electorate. He and Labour will be gone in the next election and Cameron and the Tories will take the reigns. A plummy accented English public schoolboy at the helm will not go down too well with the Scottish Nationalists.

  • RepublicanStones

    truth and justice, having spent a considerble amount of time in Africa, i can tell you this, i have no qualms about paying for water tapped directly into my home and filtered at that.

  • I think we can safely say the abortion act won’t be extended anytime soon. Thanks for using my body as a pawn in your agenda, Gordon.

  • nineteensixtyseven

    You wont be saying that when you dont have to pay for your water.

    False dichotomy. If Sinn Fein’s manifesto was to be believed I wouldn’t have had to have had my liberties used as a bargaining chip in order to get free water.

  • It’s like the 80’s again.

    No, it’s like the mid 1990s again. In the ’80s Thatcher had impregnable majorities. Unfortunately.

    A plummy accented English public schoolboy at the helm will not go down too well with the Scottish Nationalists.

    The plummy Tories are working hand in glove with the SNP government at Holyrood and Salmond and Cameron get on famously. You scratch my back, I’ll scratch yours.

  • picador

    Both Jim Callaghan and John Major cut deals with unionists to stay in power. Maggie signed the Hillsborough Agreement.

    Brown likes to see himself as being in the same mould of Thatcher (i.e. the iron man) but we all know that’s ridiculous. New Labour are finished. Might as well bring on the Tories.

  • Bigger Picture

    “I suspect SBCR is largely correct. More money for the collective Norn Iron begging bowl AND the DUPs sectarian agenda advanced at the expense of nationalists.”

    A loaded statement if ever I heard one. Just because something isn’t in Nationalists interests does not make it sectarian.

  • Comrade Stalin @ 10:50 PM:

    Your argument there could be used against any length of arrest, detention and questioning. Where do you draw the line? At 42 seconds? At 42 minutes? At 42 hours? Why is one time-limit a blow against individual liberty and another reasonable? Unless one is arguing for partisan reasons, of course.

    Recognise the practicalities:

    1. There are so many safeguards built into the proposed legislation that it enhances the constraints, legal and political, on the securocrats.

    2. At one stage 28 days was denounced as a creature worthy of Dzerzhinsky or Beria at their worst (remember them?). Overnight, those milquetoast LibDems decided and pronounced it to be “justifiable”. Now it is the norm of political debate. Explain what happened (apart from a couple of uncomfortable experiences and a few casualties among the ordinary citizenry). Discuss, too, what is a reasonable length of time for the intelligence services to be allowed to requisition mobile phone records, to investigate the hundred or more computers in a dozen or more internet cafés that might have been used by a suicide bombing gang (they’re not daft enough to do it conveniently on the home Dell, you know). Or should that degree of investigation be banned as gross intrusion of personal freedoms?

    3. If it comes to defending “democratic liberties”, where else does one draw the line? For example, what about my rights to use a litter bin on the London underground? My right to board an aircraft without a body search? My right to enter Green Park via Downing Street? My right to enter museums and other places without opening and depositing my bags? My right to enter a school or college without passing security and, in many cases, electronic screening for weapons? My right to own a gun? Are all those not gross intrusions on my personal liberty? Yet, all of these are “freedoms” that have been surrendered to terrorism and violence: so which could now be rewstored without endangering public and personal safety?

    Be honest: there’s a gross amount of froth, fraud and partisan fossicking about 42 days. Oh, and don’t insult by pleading Magna Carta rights: the line about “freemen” was down in number 39 of the 60-odd clauses, almost an afterthought — the document did nothing for the masses of serfs, and specifically disfranchised women.

    And, yes, I fully admit to having a personal gripe here. I have shared a life and a bed with the same lady, of good Ulster stock, for over 40 years. I still recall that day I got her home with severe whiplash injuries caused by a terror bomb. Except she didn’t get those injuries in benighted Belfast: she had been in Euston Station at 1.10 pm on 10 September 1973. That changed my unbridled libertarianism a bit. And now the bastards don’t even give a three-minute warning.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Sammy Morse: “As no-one wants to be blown up, and no-one in remotely mainstream political discourse supports Al-Qa’eda and its affiliates, this is a complete straw man of an argument.”

    As, historically, at least, what, eight fellows *did* want to blow themselves up, with at least four of these incendiaries succeeding to doing so, as an argument it may be somewhat rarified and limited, but it is hardly a straw-man.

    I do find it ironic that when last I commented on the difference between subjects and citizens is that in the UK, one’s rights are defined merely by whatever Parliment happens to say they are.

    Told ya so.

  • Damian O’Loan

    Malcolm Redfellow,

    I know its somewhat improbable, but it would have been more effective to secure the UK by withdrawing its troops from Iraq, Afghanistan and parts of Africa, and ending foreign policy subservience to the United States. This measure is an illustration of civil liberties paying for foolish and elite-serving foreign policy decisions. And there is no guarantee, to say the least, that it will improve security in light of the alienation it already represents. Your argumentation is rational, but evidence has not been provided to illustrate a specific need.

    Also, your representation of police work seems a little unrealistic. It’s not like police arrest a ‘suitable’, open a new file and start asking questions. The intelligence and investigative process is clearly at an advanced stage when arrests are made in relation to any terror plot. And they should be, to safeguard the simple truth of habeus corpus. A value imposed on the police and army in the public interest.

    We’re all agreed that more time to question may provide precious information. But 28 days, what you call the “norm”, is a hell of a long time, as those who have experienced it would tell you. Indeed, many of those arrested have spent months, even years, in torture prisons in other countries. Let’s just say the value of the information risks decreasing over time.

    Aside, this could be interesting from the Unionist point of view. This vote has the British questioning why their will is being over-ruled by some Irishmen. Surely not what protecting the Union is about? Damaged in the eyes of the population at large, damaged in the eyes of the next government.

  • Reader

    Damian O’Loan : ,i>This vote has the British questioning why their will is being over-ruled by some Irishmen.
    …or Scotsmen, or Welshmen, or Englishmen. If it’s meant to be a big deal, how did the 4 constituent parts of the UK vote, considered separately? Were the Scots Nats done over by the DUP, were English Tories beaten by Welsh Labour?

  • Damian O’Loan @ 08:23 AM:

    I’m not unsympathetic to your approach, even if it does smack of “If I wanted to get there, I wouldn’t start from here.”

    I’m still unclear, from anyone, what is an “acceptable” time-limit for detention. My “norm” of 28 days was plucked out of the air as the apparent consensus of Tories, LibDems and others. In the Tony Benn line (noted in the header to this thread), any period of detention and questioning would be contrary to cap. 39 of Magna Carta:

    No freeman shall be arrested, or kept in prison, or disseised, or outlawed, or banished, or in any way brought to ruin … unless by the lawful judgment of his peers or by the law of the land.

    Any “liberalism” there, of course, was neatly negated by the previous cap. 34, which gave a feudal lord total control over his tenants, a licence to which Benn and co. give little recognition.

  • ZoonPol

    As far as the 42 day period is concerned, I for one find the final internment of the maxims of the Magna Carta a little bit sad. Even during the Civil War the right of Habeas Corpus was held dear. Law and justice was never about the “aquisition of evidence”. One can historically bounce the attacks on habeas down the ages and find in the main they were unsucessful simply because they were unjust. There is a very fine line between detention, internment and Guantanamo Bay…… Any student of law knows the purpose of arrest and will be familiar with the concept of detention as an “ongoing arrest”, and within reason detention is an important tool for “the full and proper investigation of an offence”, but when detention becomes preventative of speculative then there is danger. What for instance happens after 41 days when the suspicion of guilt (S110 SOCAP) evaporates into the ether and innocence is left behind. No-one appreciates the “technical reasons” for having a 42 day rule, no-one is as unconvinced either. Having been within the tent pwiddling out, that is what is known as a smoke screen and cop out. Why, oh why do I think the clarion call of this new power will be “round up the usual suspects”. Anyway

  • pacman

    “One of the proposals of the ID card is to use it when voting, are you saying if it was introduced to all of the UK, you would not have one and thus miss the chance to maybe one day vote NI out of the UK”

    You don’t seriously think it’s going to be introduced to the “whole” of the UK, do you? Why would Gordy and his government suddenly start treating this place like England, Scotland and Wales when he has studiously avoided it in his attempts to create an all-embracing Britishness? Besides, I work in the electoral process during election time and when I can be bothered to vote, I haven’t required any form of ID save for my appointment letter.

    “the DUP may have extracted measures from the government that will benefit all sections of NI opinion”

    As a catholic, I sorely doubt that. Their history since their creation would tend to make this highly unlikely.

    Sorry Bonar but I see nothing to get rankled about unless you’re the sort of person who needs a plastic card with a photo on it to confirm your nationality. I’m quite comfortable without one.

  • 0b101010

    I’m still unclear, from anyone, what is an “acceptable” time-limit for detention.

    None.

  • Blackmouth

    Just one thought.

    What do the Unionist population of Northern Ireland owe the Conservative Party exactly? This is the party that prorugued Stormont, that imposed the Anglo-Irish Agreement over our heads and brought in the Downing Street Declaration.

    The self-serving cynicism of the Conservatives defies belief. The party of law and order lining up to denounce 10 MPs (DUP + Hermon), everyone of whom has lived under threats against their life from terrorists because they vote for strong law and order measures is frankly unbelievable.

  • Damian O’Loan

    Malcolm Redfellow,

    “it does smack of “If I wanted to get there, I wouldn’t start from here.” ”

    Given that’s now been well over a century that Britain has had a military and ‘diplomatic’ presence in both Iraq and Afghanistan, that’s long been an argument used to defend, intentionally or otherwise, that illegimitate presence.

    What distinguishes this phase, perhaps, is that measures are being put in place to deny the same rights as in those two countries, and others, within and from citizens of the UK. Such measures have been a feature of anti-terrorism legislation since before 9/11. Whether this government uses them is not the question.

    As to an acceptable length of detention, my uninformed guess would be less then a week, certainly. But being so uninformed, I’d defer to evidence to the contrary.

    Reader,

    That wasn’t my view. My view was that comments like these:

    “You useless fucking Ulster cunts.

    When the Jocks declare independence they can fucking have you lot, you useless wankers.”

    “I say we take their british passports off them, the fucking troublemaking turncoats.”

    “How can the security from terror, or otherwise, of the United Kingdom, come down to a flat £200M bribe to people who know how to leverage terror to their best advantage”

    not mine, all quoted from Guido, show that the DUP, among other things, haven’t done unionism any favours here.

  • Blackmouth

    Damian

    Depsite the fact that over 60% of the UK Population support the legislation?

    Don’t confuse a lot of Tory whinging as representing public opinion.

    Let’s see 2 years down the line if Cameron repeals this legislation…..