Sport as part of normalisation policy?


The last time representatives of British Crown forces set foot in Croke Park 14 civilians were murdered, this Saturday a woman holding the titles:

* Colonel-in-Chief, The King’s Royal Hussars
* Colonel-in-Chief, The Worcestershire and Sherwood Foresters Regiment (29/45 Foot)
* Colonel-in-Chief, The Royal Corps of Signals
* Colonel-in-Chief, The Royal Logistic Corps
* Colonel-in-Chief, The Royal Army Veterinary Corps
* Commandant-in-Chief, The First Aid Nursing Yeomanry (Princess Royal’s Volunteer Corps)
* Colonel, The Blues and Royals
* Royal Colonel, The Royal Scots Borderers, 1st Battalion Royal Regiment of Scotland
* Royal Colonel, The 52nd Lowland Regiment, 6th Battalion Royal Regiment of Scotland
* Rear Admiral and Chief Commandant for women, Royal Navy
* Honorary Air Commodore, RAF Lyneham
* Honorary Air Commodore, University of London Air Squadron
* Royal Honorary Colonel, University of London OTC
* Commodore-in-Chief, Portsmouth

UPDATED belowwill be attending the Ireland Scotland rugby match there wearing her patron of Scottish rugby hat.

éirígí have altered plans for a pre-arranged protest at the British embassy in Dublin (part of a larger campaign) against a proposed visit to Ireland by the British Queen to object over the royal trip to Croke Park and have called for Republicans, Socialists and Democrats to support their stance.

Update: Details of the éirígí protest

  • joeCanuck

    Is she to be held responsible for that shameful act of mass murder, Mark?

  • Bob Mugabe

    So what else are the wankers up to? How many of them know the rules of rugby, or the GAA for that matter? (Are there rules in GAA btw?)

    There should have been a thread on the Cork GAA stuff. Much more interesting than a splinter group of an MI5 counter gang (PIRASF) standing outside Croker? they remind me of Puckoon.
    They should be protesting on behalf of Reblican POWs instead of using a protest as a pretext to get their rocks off with some Republican slapper.

  • willis

    In case you are confused by Mark’s oblique post. He is talking about Princess Anne. Talk about Normalisation!

  • pith

    The protesters probably care little or nothing for sport. Maybe they should just watch the match. They might learn something.

  • éirígí told by Bertie to naff orf 🙂

  • willis

    What does a “Patron of Scottish Rugby hat” look like? Not This Surely?

    http://www.partydomain.co.uk/d-commerce/product4735.html

  • It was Sammy Mc Nally what done it

    The following boys are going to take a hell of a beating

    Ugly bug Anne, * Colonel-in-Chief, The King’s Royal Hussars,* Colonel-in-Chief, The Worcestershire and Sherwood Foresters Regiment (29/45 Foot),* Colonel-in-Chief, The Royal Corps of Signals,* Colonel-in-Chief, The Royal Logistic Corps ,* Colonel-in-Chief, The Royal Army Veterinary Corps ,* Commandant-in-Chief, The First Aid Nursing Yeomanry (Princess Royal’s Volunteer Corps) ,* Colonel, The Blues and Royals ,* Royal Colonel, The Royal Scots Borderers, 1st Battalion Royal Regiment of Scotland ,* Royal Colonel, The 52nd Lowland Regiment, 6th Battalion Royal Regiment of Scotland, * Rear Admiral and Chief Commandant for women, Royal Navy , * Honorary Air Commodore, RAF Lyneham
    * Honorary Air Commodore, University of London Air Squadron , * Royal Honorary Colonel, University of London OTC ,* Commodore-in-Chief, Portsmouth

  • BfB

    Do Irish patriots spin clockwise, or counterclockwise in their graves? Can’t ask a living one, there’s none left.

  • Greenflag

    Well the best greeting Princess Anne could receive would be comprehensive defeat of the Scots who have apparently not crossed a try line for several games . Ireland 40 Scotland 0 sounds like a good score :).

    Although I’ve no time for the institution of monarchy per se Princess Anne does a lot of work for those less fortunate. As Minister Ahern says she should be made welcome as a visitor . She could’nt possibly be the reason the Scots keep losing ?

  • I don’t think Princess Anne will be murdering anyone on Saturday… The Irish team will probably get enough of a beating from the Scots!

    But seriously – what is the problem some republicans have with the representatives of another country visiting Ireland? I think that it would be good to see the maturity of Ireland and how it deals with a visit from the Queen … as it would show the maturity of Northern Ireland in having the Pope call round.

    Maybe the Queen and the Pope could do a joint tour in March, stopping in Armagh and then Dublin, via the Boyne?

  • Dewi

    The joke here was that the Irish army should just have targeted Wilkinson…..

  • joeCanuck

    Perhaps Eirigi should try to track down the grandchildren of the killers, mostly RIC men, and picket their homes too.

  • Greenflag

    ‘The Irish team will probably get enough of a beating from the Scots!’

    If they do it will be an upset . Paddy Power is giving odds of 1/7 for an Irish win and 4/1 for a Scots win 25/1 for a draw .

    ‘Maybe the Queen and the Pope could do a joint tour in March, stopping in Armagh ‘

    Brilliant idea -both sets of die hards could jon together and in timed chorus one shower could roar *uck the Pope and the other could respond with * uck the Queen. What a display of ‘national unity’ that would be 🙂

    This island will never be short of gobshite material 🙁

  • It was Sammy Mc Nally what done it

    Any protest in Ireland will look silly – a protest by the Scottish in Scotland is a different matter. They desperately need to attract more players and fans – that quareone must be a massive turn off.

  • It was Sammy Mc Nally what done it

    Dewi,

    the WRU have one those dreadful Princes as a patron haven’t they? As well as some dreadful feathers on the jersey which represent the ‘Prince of Wales’ – have your boyz no national self respect at all?

    Dont forget you will owe a fiver ( another dreadful royal on that as well ) in 2 weeks time.

    ‘mon the eyeties

  • Dewi

    Ich Dien Sammy – I’m saving up – O Flower of Scotland when will we see your likes again….

  • Lorraine

    does anyone think they’ll have the sense to request a dress-code, so there can be no embarrassing moments with clashes of culture………….up scotland

  • Greenflag

    ‘O Flower of Scotland when will we see your likes again…. ‘

    Some other time but not next Saturday 🙂 The thistle is in for a pricking methinks !

  • Dewi

    Wonderful anthem though – “that fought and died for that wee bit hill and glen”

  • Dewi

    And Mark – a stupid post – who blasted cares?

  • George

    I didn’t even know Princess Anne (or Princess Ann as the Irish Times called her last week) was coming and now I do I don’t care that she is. It is hardly as if she hasn’t been here before.

    I wonder if éirígí were picketing the last time she was in Dublin when she was guest of honour at the Irish Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children’s annual charity ball in the Berkeley Court Hotel.

    Somehow I doubt it. And why move it from the British Embassy to Ballybough?

    As they say on their website it is for the GAA to decide if they are ready to welcome a British Royal to headquarters and they obviously have.

    The reasoning by éirígí for moving the protest seems a bit lame to me.

  • Mark McGregor

    George,

    I can’t see that on the website. I see mention it is in no way a protest about rugby at Croke Park and that being a decision for the GAA.

  • Greenflag

    ‘And Mark – a stupid post – who blasted cares?’

    The McGregors have a poor history of dealing with British royalty as the note below indicates 🙂 Perhaps it’s

    ‘MacGregors were involved in the killing of John Drummond, the king’s forester (after Drummond had hung some MacGregors for poaching) in 1589 and MacGregors took part in the Conflict of Glenfruin in 1603. With encouragement from the Campbells, King James VI and the Privy Council issued an edict banning the use of the name MacGregor. The clan chief was hanged at Edinburgh’s Mercat Cross in 1604. The surname was not fully restored until 1774.

    Rob Roy MacGregor (he was forced to use his mother’s maiden name Campbell due to the proscription of the MacGregor name) was a younger son of MacGregor of Glengyle. He took part in the first Jacobite Uprising in 1715. Afterwards, his raids on Lowland farms and his prowess with the sword earned him a reputation which was considerably enhanced by Sir Walter Scott’s romantic tales. Rob Roy died peacefully in 1734 and is buried with his family in the churchyard at Balquhidder. A 20th century addition to his grave is defiantly inscribed “MacGregor Despite Them”!

    Perhaps Mark is just following the family tradition?

  • Greenflag

    ‘And why move it from the British Embassy to Ballybough?’

    Because Ballybough is closer to Croke Park and they might get noticed by some of the rugby supporters . The staff at the British Embassy will be at home either watching the game or shopping or gardening . Not much fun demonstrating with only a security guard looking on ? The Dublin public won’t be scratching their arses to look at this shower of neanderthals!

    ‘The reasoning by éirígí for moving the protest seems a bit lame to me.’

    Seems ? It’s as lame as a centipede with 99 twisted ankles and will be less effective as well ! Maybe they should disrobe and stand bollock naked for the Republic ? That way the crowd might see the mighty men of Eirigi for what they are ! Gobshites one and all !

  • Michael Robinson

    Princess Anne has to watch a particularly dire Scotland team for game after game after game.

    Isn’t that punishment enough?

  • Dewi
  • Dewi
  • PeaceandJustice

    The President of the Republic of Ireland is a frequent visitor to Northern Ireland, UK. Yet her country sheltered terrorist murderers over the years.

    The DFM of NI admits being part of a terrorist gang. Sinn Fein PIRA murdered and tortured people.

    Should there be constant protests against these people?

    The Queen should already have visited the Republic of Ireland by now. If Republicans are going to make such a fuss about Royal visits, then it’s time for Mrs McAleese to stop her frequent drop-in visits to a part of the United Kingdom.

  • George

    Mark,
    “I can’t see that on the website. I see mention it is in no way a protest about rugby at Croke Park and that being a decision for the GAA.”

    I was working on the logic that if you invite Scotland to play rugby in your stadium, the chances are that you are going to get Princess Anne into the bargain.

    She used to come to Lansdowne Road so why on earth should she not come to Croke Park? She is patron of Scottish rugby.

    If éirígí accept the GAA’s decision to welcome Scotland to Croke Park, they have to accept that Princess Anne might turn up.

    The éirígí argument to me is that the British state has politicised this fixture by sending Princess Anne over so this justifies moving their protest to Ballybough.

    I find that a lame excuse.

    The way I see it, the GAA have made it clear they want to leave the politicised nature of Croke Park (due to its history) behind and move into a new era along with the overwhelming majority of people in the Irish Republic.

    Éirígí aren’t ready for that for obvious reasons and feel it’s part of “a broader British policy of ‘normalisation’ in Ireland”.

    But this game and the presence of Princess Anne is Irish Government, GAA, IRFU and rugby fans policy.

  • RepublicanStones

    its seems P&J;is blissfully unaware of where Mrs McAleese is from. and also ignorant of the fact that HM british govt ran and still runs a policy of operating, protecting and sheltering murderers. I doubt the republic were anywhere near as prolific in this regard !

  • It was Sammy Mc Nally what done it

    PeaceandJustice,

    Nobody except for Unionists really think that Non Iron is a proper part of the UK – that is what GFA/STA makes clear by enshrining cooperation with ROI in the Non Iron constitution, legally commttng Britain to agreement with ROI on matters pertaining to Non Iron and removng British symbols from courts, police etc. They even forced the Unionist people to share power with the organisaton that you consder were trying to wipe you out.

    At what point do Unionsts question their loyalty to a state whch has treated them so poorly?

  • PeaceandJustice

    RepublicanStones – “its seems P&J;is blissfully unaware of where Mrs McAleese is from”. I’m very aware of where she is from originally. But she is now head of a foreign state. I notice you made no comment about Sinn Fein PIRA murderers and a certain DFM.

    It was Sammy Mc Nally what done it – “Nobody except for Unionists really think that Non Iron is a proper part of the UK”
    Well perhaps that is the case in your little world. But the fact is that Northern Ireland is a proper part of the UK. Yes, the Government of the day has introduced some measures that Unionists would not have proposed. But you need to distinguish between the Government of the day and the country. Many people have no sense of loyalty towards the Government but have a great pride in their Ulster-British heritage and culture.

  • RepublicanStones

    it seems P&J;is unable to read properly, i alluded to your ref about the republic and its alleged ‘sheltering’, why would i mention Sinn Fein, or the IRA, they have a long way to go before they are as blood soaked as the British govt. and as regards President McAleese being a ‘foreign’ head of state, was she requried to give up her right to visit the north in taking up the post? what sort of nonsense is that. It must suck to be a relic of britains colonial past !

  • joeCanuck

    Seemsw wWe still have a considerable distance to go before parity of esteem is fully accepted by both sides.,

  • suchard

    Why do not these Real heroes burn down The British Embassy, assasinate the ambassador, and generally behave like the bunch of thick fascists they undoubtedly are. At the same time they could call for the current 3,000,000. Irish born first generation immigrants to leave GBand come back to the old sod if you all hate us Brits so much.The Marquis of Cornwallis was right when he said that “Ireland was the World’s greatest lunatic asylumn”. For once I want the Scots to win especially at Croke Park. Just remember it was The English RFU that came to Lansdown Road when no one else would.All sane fair minded Rugby Players will be have a rally good piss up while all you miserable unsporting chippy Luddites will be crying into your stout and just to think all the profits go to a British company- keep up the drinking ya boyos.Bertie boy wants to consider himelf exceedingly lucky that HRH the Princess Anne comes to Croke Park after the previous hospitality shown to her late uncle Earl Mountbatten and his family but of course she is forward looking and forgiving and does not survive on a diet of inculcated hate and victimhood. Why dont you change tack or are your brains addled?.

  • againstthehead

    and she has to watch a dire irish team too! don’t forget this dire scotish side has done very well again our dire irish side over the past year! Albeit both times in scotland.

  • Rory

    “Princess Anne does a lot of work for those less fortunate.”

    Perhaps, Greenflag, that is because the poor gal would be hard pressed to find anyone more fortunate than her own self.

  • lafcadio

    delighted that anne will visit, if only to show just how marginal the dreary and regressive search for victimhood has become in modern ireland.

    i hope the guy with the celtic shirt and the “no to foreign sports” placard is there again

  • darth rumsfeld

    FORZA ESCOZIA!!!

  • willowfield

    So Princess Anne is going to Croke Park.

    Whoopy-doo.

  • UFB

    “RepublicanStones – “its seems P&J;is blissfully unaware of where Mrs McAleese is from”. I’m very aware of where she is from originally. But she is now head of a foreign state”

    Hmmm, Couldn´t the same be said of oul Nelly Deans´family which you hold in such high slavish devotion PJ?

    “Wishing to disassociate his family from its German origins, he changed the name from Saxe-Coberg-Gotha to Windsor” – George V

    Particularly liked the bio on Edward VII –

    “He spent most of his time sailing, gambling, and riding”

    sounds like a typical monacharist leach to me.

  • UFB
  • Who gives a shit about any of this?

  • PeaceandJustice

    RepublicanStones – “why would i mention Sinn Fein, or the IRA, they have a long way to go before they are as blood soaked as the British govt.”

    I assume that is what they told you at Provo school. Of course none of the massacres carried out by Sinn Fein PIRA really happened – or if they did it was only murdering Protestants. And sure the DFM is a good Roman Catholic who goes to Mass. So murdering Protestants must be all OK with the great Papa man in Rome.

    RepublicanStones – “was she requried to give up her right to visit the north in taking up the post? what sort of nonsense is that. It must suck to be a relic of britains colonial past !”

    She can visit wherever she likes in the world. I’m talking about the large number of official visits she pays to Northern Ireland, UK. To quote ‘suchard’ above, it must suck to survive on a diet of inculcated hate and victimhood.

    lafcadio – “i hope the guy with the celtic shirt and the ‘no to foreign sports’ placard is there again”

    Yes, that was highly amusing! RepublicanStones seems a likely candidate.

  • eranu

    here we go agaaaaiiin !!! backward chip on the shoulder republican types ranting and raving. totally embarrassing themselves and the rest of us in ireland that are actually living in 2008.

    still, there should be some funny pictures of tracksuit wearing growlers having a ‘protest’, soon enough.

    perhaps a prize could be given on slugger for the highest number of cringe inducing republican phrases used in a post? c’mon guys, make an effort ! 🙂

  • Greenflag

    ‘The President of the Republic of Ireland is a frequent visitor to Northern Ireland, UK. Yet her country sheltered terrorist murderers over the years.’

    Nonsense the Irish Government and taxpayers paid millions over a period of more than 30 years to keep hundreds of extremists locked up in Portlaoise and other prisons – without which there would have been even more death and destruction in NI.

  • Greenflag

    ‘Perhaps, Greenflag, that is because the poor gal would be hard pressed to find anyone more fortunate than her own self. ‘

    True enough .Still coming from a ‘dysfunctional’ family and given the limitations she’s done her bit .

  • The Truth

    The biggest laugh is when all the unionist slaves start getting erections at the sight of one of their masters, cheering and toasting their english better. It cracks me up.
    All ready with ye’re caps to tip and knee to bend?

  • willowfield

    Nonsense the Irish Government and taxpayers paid millions over a period of more than 30 years to keep hundreds of extremists locked up in Portlaoise and other prisons – without which there would have been even more death and destruction in NI.

    That’s true, but didn’t they also refuse to extradite terrorists?

  • willowfield

    It wasn’t a point: it was a question.

    I note your inability to answer it.

  • Peter Brown

    Willowfield

    From my Emergency Law course at Queens at the time if I remember rightly much like a Carry On movie it depended on the size of your weapon (not even on what you had done with it!)

  • Well i’ll be passing the junction of Ballybough
    Rd and Clonliffe Rd en route to the game and i must admit i’ll find it strangely reassuring that
    political dinosaurs exist all over this wee island and not just up here.

  • willowfield

    Sorry, I don’t understand what you mean.

  • If it makes you happy

    People have the right to protest if they want to.

    Mark – just one pointer. I recall the last protest by RSF against foreign sports at Croke Park and one of the protesters was wearing a celtic top.

    It sure made me laugh – enjoy your day out in the Capital.

    p.s. can anyone explain the logic of rugby to me?

  • The Truth

    A unioist voice: And we shall keep our ties with the Lowland Scots because they are our ancestral brothers, but not the Highland Scots, because they are coniving like the native Irish that live amoungst us here. And we shall grovel at the feet of the english because we see them as superior to us, and we shall aspire to be everything that they are. And maybe even hope to die an englishman.

    Slave minded serfs the lot of ye. Long may ye continue to be.

  • willowfield

    Very amusing.

  • George

    Willowfield,
    “That’s true, but didn’t they also refuse to extradite terrorists?”

    Didn’t the RUC also refuse to take up the option of having them be tried in the Republic for what I assume were political rather than policing grounds?

  • Peter Brown

    George that option was only available from the late ’80s when the new govt was so embarassed byy the actions of its predecessors and decisions of it courts it created that alternative – nice try but I’m afraid that I am only to glad to blow that smokescreen away…..

  • willowfield

    George

    Didn’t the RUC also refuse to take up the option of having them be tried in the Republic for what I assume were political rather than policing grounds?

    No idea, but I see Peter Brown has answered.

    Are you acknowledging, then, that the courts in the South refused to extradite terrorists to the UK?

  • Smell the Coffee

    Not to the UK, just the northeast of Ireland, because it was being ran by a bunch of incompetent sectarian bigots.

  • BonarLaw

    Smell the Coffee

    grow up.

  • Smell the Coffee

    The truth is a byatch, isn’t it.

  • Greenflag

    ‘Nonsense the Irish Government and taxpayers paid millions over a period of more than 30 years to keep hundreds of extremists locked up in Portlaoise and other prisons ‘

    Should have read hundreds of millions .

    -‘That’s true, but didn’t they also refuse to extradite terrorists? ‘

    No .It’s the Courts not the Government that decide extradition cases . They make their judgements based on the written Constitution and laws of the Republic . I know that some applications for ‘extradition’ were turned down because the applicants either did not furnish enough evidence or paid little attention to the Courts procedures . Some applications I believe were so poorly prepared that any junior solicitor in the Republic could tear them apart . The history of British Courts as regards ‘trying’ Irish people re political and related offenses would of course not have made ‘extradition’ easy to implement . There’s no need to repeat the list but you could dig up a couple of hundred years of cases which would show without question that too often the crime was simply to be Irish and that was proof guilt enough .

    On balance I believe the Irish Government did what it could do to ameliorate the violence in NI as regards implementing the powers it had during those times . Unlike say the powes of British Courts which when dealing with the Irish often cared not whether the man was guilty or not just that he be made an example of !

    The ‘hanging ‘ of William Orr in 1798 being just one case in a centuries long list of of Irish victims of British injustice 🙁

    The sentence was hardly passed on William Orr when regret was to seize on those who had aided in securing that verdict. The witness Wheatly, who subsequently went insane, is believed to have died by his own hand, made an affidavit before a magistrate admitting that he had sworn wrongly against Orr. [1] Two of the jury made depositions stating that they had been “induced to join in the verdict of guilty while under the influence of drink”; while two others swore that they had “been terrified into the same course by threats of violence.” [1] [3]

    These particulars were placed before the Viceroy, but Lord Camden, the Lord Lieutenant, was “deaf to all appeals.” “Well might Orr exclaim within his dungeon” he said “that the Government had laid down a system having for its object murder and devastation.” [1]

    Orr was hanged, in the town of Carrickfergus though his execution was postponed three times on the 14 October, 1797, surrounded by an extra strong military guard.

  • willowfield

    Not to the UK, just the northeast of Ireland, because it was being ran by a bunch of incompetent sectarian bigots.

    It was “being ran”, as you put it, by the same people running the rest of the UK, so the reasoning offered in your comment makes no sense, even if essentially it were true, which I do not believe it is.

  • BonarLaw

    Smell the Coffee

    I rather suspect you and the truth are involved in a very long distance relationship. Let me help you with some truths people have difficulty with

    1) The UK includes four constituent parts: England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. Even the Provos understand that.

    2) The UK will continue to contain four constituent parts unless NI produces a majority in a referendum which says otherwise. Even the DFM understands that’s an unlikely outcome.

    3) The only state which shares a land border with the UK styles itself “Ireland”. Check how it defines iteself within the EU and UN. Accordingly the “the northeast of Ireland” is County Louth.

    If I can help you with anything else just ask.

  • willowfield

    No .It’s the Courts not the Government that decide extradition cases .

    Obviously, but the Government is responsible for the laws which the courts implement. The courts interpret those laws.

    Think of abortion – the Government has changed the abortion law following court judgments.

  • Smell the Coffee

    Ireland is made up of the island of Ireland.

    Within the island are two states :
    1. The Republic of Ireland.
    2. Northern ireland.

    Both make up the sum of Ireland.

  • Smell the Coffee

    Therefore the northeast of the Republic of Ireland is Co.Louth, the northeast of Ireland is Co.Antrim. Suck it up brother.

  • Greenflag

    Think of abortion

    ‘the Government has changed the abortion law following court judgments.’

    Not true . The Government proposed an amendment to the Constitutional law prohibiting abortion which was then put to the people in a referendum . Had the amendment not been accepted by referendum it would not have become law .

    The Republic has a written Constitution which limits the ‘sovereignty ‘ of Parliament .
    The UK is different . Technically the UK Government could pass a law mandating the sterilisation of all adult males over the age of 10 in Northern Ireland and if passed by Parliament that would be Her Majesty’s law ! We prefer our written Constitution .

  • Billy Pilgrim

    Willow

    “Obviously, but the Government is responsible for the laws which the courts implement. The courts interpret those laws.”

    But extradition is still a legal matter that must be decided by the courts. So unless the government of the day had passed a law saying that all extradition requests from any country would be granted, regardless of circumstance, without legal recourse, then the government had no further say over the matter.

    Of course so country could possibly have such a law, so Irish extradition law, like that in any other democracy, requires a certain burden of evidence and the guarantee of a fair trial, of any foreign government seeking to extradite people from the Republic.

    Clearly in a number of cases Irish courts were not satisfied that UK courts could meet these requirements. But this was a legal judgement, and remember that in the Republic of Ireland, unlike the UK, the supreme power of the land is vested in the people and codified in a written constitution. There are no circumstances in which an Irish Minister for Justice has the power to override the courts, unlike a British Home Secretary. RoI has a separation of powers.

    And of course there were people extradited from RoI to the UK during the Troubles. There just wasn’t extradition on demand, and in the cases where the British authorities didn’t do their homework, they were met with the judegment they deserved in the Irish courts.

  • suchard

    I have just seen our two water cannon on the road from Armagh to Portadown. A suspicious mind asks me are they on their way to Dublin. The PSNI would not help me in my enquiries; their press office lady told me to contact my local district policing partnership; they refused to put me through to the Chief Constable’s Office-poorly paid gate keepers using their brains is a recipee for disaster it alienates the PSNI’s friends and supporters.Or are British citizens now the enemy in the publicity and media attention seeking Chief Constable’s mind?. They used to hire Belgian water cannon to support the PSNI at Drumcree. I hope they know the current rental value and that they are indemnified against any damage should this hopefully unlikely situation arise. Just to think some anti social elements “will be in for’t early bath” with a bit of luck before Kick Off-slap it up ’em.

  • Greenflag

    Thank you Post 25 above for the excellent summary. Could’nt have done better myself 🙂

  • RedHaze

    Whether people agree with the protest or not, it cannot be portrayed as being devoid of logic.

    It appears quite straight forward to me. There are those in Dublin who would attempt to normalise relations with Britain in the fullest sense.

    They are on record as saying that they are preparing the way for the visit of the British monarch.

    Those in eirigi, indeed, more than their numbers alone, do not believe relations can be normalised whilst British rule exists within any part of Ireland.

    In case it has been lost in todays world, Irish Republicanism is a legitimate philosophy to hold.

    Further to this, socialism is a legitimate philosophy to hold.

    Add the two together and it is not incredibly difficult to see how those from that school of thought have problems with British monarchs and their associates visiting Ireland as a matter of course.

    It appears eirigi have taken a relatively restained position on this. They are not protesting against ‘foreign sports’ in Croke, they rightly state that that is an internal matter for the GAA. They are not protesting at the match, its participants, its fans, etc.

    They are merely protesting at the proposed visit of the British monarch whilst matters are outstanding and against any foundations for such a visit being laid.

    I wish them well.

  • Garibaldy

    Surely though Redhaze from the point of view of éirígí this is not going to achieve its goal. If republicanism or socialism is to be relevant it needs to be seen to be responsive to the real needs of people on the ground as they live their lives under an unequal system. Frankly, a protest like this risks making them looks like cranks of the RSF variety. Might be good for the converted, but to make converts? Not sure it’s sensible.

    And as for relations betwen Dublin and London, I think they’ve been well beyond normal for some time.

  • Greenflag

    ‘There are those in Dublin who would attempt to normalise relations with Britain in the fullest sense.’

    Eh ? Relations between Dublin/ROI and Britain are normal and have been for a long time . Probably no two countries anywhere within the EU have a closer relationship right across the economic, political and social spectrum .

    ‘They are on record as saying that they are preparing the way for the visit of the British monarch.’

    Actually we don’t much care one way or the other . If she comes she’ll get a welcome if she don’t she won’t .

    ‘Those in eirigi, indeed, more than their numbers alone, do not believe relations can be normalised whilst British rule exists within any part of Ireland.’

    So are we to cut off all trade and diplomatic relations -send all our british immigrants back to blighty -stop buying english goods -stop looking at premier league soccer -stop drinking english ales ? WTF do you mean by ‘normalise’anyway . It’s 2008 not 1909 !

    ‘In case it has been lost in todays world, Irish Republicanism is a legitimate philosophy to hold.’

    I would’nt doubt it . However there is the ‘republicanism’ of eirigi who get zero votes in democratic elections in Ireland as opposed to the Republicanism of the vast majority of the Irish people who vote for FF/PD/FG /Labour/Green Party etc .

    ‘Further to this, socialism is a legitimate philosophy to hold.’

    Indeed it is but what has ‘socialism’ got to do with 80,000 people going to watch a rugby game and having some Saturday entertainment ? Eirigi’s form of socialism does not appeal to any but a tiny minority in either North or South in Ireland .

    ‘They are merely protesting at the proposed visit of the British monarch whilst matters are outstanding ‘

    What matters are outstanding ? The vast majority of the people in both the Irish Republic and Northern Ireland voted to accept the Good Friday Agreement which whether you personnally like it or not stipulates that NI will remain a part of the political UK until such time as a majority within NI vote otherwise . Princess Anne had nothing to do with the GFA nor did she cast a vote in the referendum . I did’nt particularly favour the GFA but that’s what the people wanted and thats what the people got .

    ‘Add the two together and it is not incredibly difficult to see how those from that school of thought have problems’

    You can say that again but I would’nt use ‘thought’ in that comment -it’s more of a problem of the absence of thought ! Surely there are better ways for Eirigi members to spend their Saturdays . Most I’m sure will want to skive off to watch the English Premier league anyway 🙂

  • Mark McGregor

    Gari,

    Surely not raising objections to the normalisation of relations with the British Monarachy for the sake of some possible converts that don’t hold the same values would be just be repeating the mistakes of other groups?

    If you are a Republican Socialist party, objecting to Imperialism, Monarchy and the British presence in Ireland is bound to be a defining characteristic.

    Rather than adopting a populist approach, trying to build popular support for your position is the road of integrity. And as is made clear, this isn’t a protest against the GAA, IRFU or rugby it is focused on the ‘normalisation’ of the British monarchy’s role in Ireland.

    Adopting a Republican stance doesn’t exclude the taking of Socialist stances as the conviction of two éirígí activists over rejecting the exploitation of natural resources during the week demonstrates.

    My only concern is if I join the protest it will interfere with my normal enjoyment of the six nations over a few pints.

  • Peter Brown

    Greenflag

    Billy P’s post was indeed very good but it wasn;t accurate – the right to a fair trial was not the deciding factor in the extradtion hearings it was whether the offences were political or not a definition which conveniently was flexible to suit the individuaol concerned and the prevailing political climate. It is no coincidence that nothing was deemed political post AIA = thanks for the lecture on the Irish constitution interesting if completely irrelevant….

  • Garibaldy

    Mark,

    Leaving aside the signgifance or otherwise of the Crown for British government, and Anglo-Irish relations, it’s not a question of hiding principles for the sake of recruits, but a question of how to appear a realistic and serious alternative to the target audience in C21st Ireland.

    Why are there not similar protests everytime a British Parliamentarian or minister comes to the south? After all, there is no doubt that Parlimaent (or for the last century or so more specifically the House of Commons) is the holder of power and sovereignty over NI.

    I’m not saying this isn’t a demonstration of integrity. I’m just wondering if it’s the right battle to pick to forward the overeall agenda.

  • Matthew Mair

    As someone who is a Scottish Unionist may I make a comment about the original debate . I visit the Republic on a regular basis through work and find the vast majority of people very welcoming and hospitable even though they know I am a Rangers supporter.Many of them have a lot of respect for the Royal family even though they do not wish to have one themselves. I think that respect was shown when the English rugby team played at Croke Park. When the British national anthem was played you could have heard a pin drop ,that tells you a lot about the Irish people .Princess Anne is the patron of Scottish rugby and I know she will get the respect from the majorty of the Irish people but if republicans want to demonstrate that is their right in a democracy ,but times have changed and what does it matter. I personally never thought I would see an ex IRA man in a Scottish parliment but dialogue is the way forward not hate and killing so I dont know what all the fuss is about its only a rugby game.

  • willowfield

    Billy Pilgrim

    But extradition is still a legal matter that must be decided by the courts.

    Obviously. So is sentencing. So if the Southern government is being given credit for terrorists being sentenced to prison, it should also be debited for failing to extradite.

    Clearly in a number of cases Irish courts were not satisfied that UK courts could meet these requirements. But this was a legal judgement, and remember that in the Republic of Ireland, unlike the UK, the supreme power of the land is vested in the people and codified in a written constitution. There are no circumstances in which an Irish Minister for Justice has the power to override the courts, unlike a British Home Secretary. RoI has a separation of powers.

    I’m not sure that that is an accurate recollection of the reasons for non-extradition, as Peter Brown has pointed out.

    PS. Just to update you, the UK also has separation of powers and the Home Secretary cannot intervene in the courts.

    Greenflag

    Not true . The Government proposed an amendment to the Constitutional law prohibiting abortion which was then put to the people in a referendum . Had the amendment not been accepted by referendum it would not have become law .

    So the law was changed! That was the point!

    The Republic has a written Constitution which limits the ‘sovereignty ‘ of Parliament . The UK is different . Technically the UK Government could pass a law mandating the sterilisation of all adult males over the age of 10 in Northern Ireland and if passed by Parliament that would be Her Majesty’s law ! We prefer our written Constitution .

    Your point is irrelevant. Whether the law was changed by a referendum or by Parliament is not material to the point that the law was changed as the result of a court ruling.

    (Incidentally, the UK Parliament could not pass such a law as it would be contrary to the ECHR.)

  • Greenflag

    ‘Incidentally, the UK Parliament could not pass such a law as it would be contrary to the ECHR (European Court of Human Rights)’

    Just as well the UK is a member of the European Union then eh ? So you admit then that prior to Britain’s membership of the European Union passing such a law would have been ‘constitutionally’ possible at Westminster.

    ‘thanks for the lecture on the Irish constitution interesting if completely irrelevant’

    In any discussion of extradition or any other laws which can impinge on the rights of an individual to a fair trial what the Constitution states is paramount . As Britain does not have a written Constitution this consideration may have eluded you!

    Now back to the rugby I’ll forecast a 27 to 9 Irish win !

  • Peter Brown

    As Britain does not have a written Constitution this consideration may have eluded you!

    As someone whose University dissertation was about the possibility of a written constitution for the UK it may not – actually the UK does have a written constitution its just not all in one document but enough about that

    Where is extradition referred to in the Irish Constitution? Nowhere! The Irish Courts extradition decisions were based on national statutes and international law so the Constituion is irrelevant – as for cherry picking this and ignoring the flexible attitude to extradition I’ll leave everyone to draw their own conclusions….

  • willowfield

    Greenflag

    Just as well the UK is a member of the European Union then eh ?

    The UK’s membership of the EU has nothing whatsoever to do with it being bound by the ECHR.

    So you admit then that prior to Britain’s membership of the European Union passing such a law would have been ‘constitutionally’ possible at Westminster.

    See above.

    But it’s not a case of “admitting” to anything. I have never claimed that the UK had a body of constitutional law superior to ordinary law.

  • Greenflag

    ‘I dont know what all the fuss is about its only a rugby game.’

    This would be the view of 99.99999 % of the people of Ireland -South and North .) The exception these ‘eirigi ‘ eejits are the exception not the norm .

    Look on the bright side though . Scotland at least got over the Irish line . Better luck next time !

  • Greenflag

    ‘and ignoring the flexible attitude to extradition I’ll leave everyone to draw their own conclusions’

    The conclusion that most people on the island of Ireland draw is that when it comes to ‘flexibility’ the past ‘judgements’ of the courts in Northern Ireland are such a model of justice that it has resulted in millions of pounds of British taxpayers money going to undo the injustices of the NI legal process! Why has HMG yet to devolve the powers of justice to the the new Northern devolved government ?

    The problem facing any Irish Government ‘extraditing ‘ people from the Republic to Northern Ireland in the past was the probability that ‘injustice’ would be done . Justice and the law were distant cousins for most of Northern Ireland’s self governing history. When it came to dealing with what were called ‘political ‘ offences i.e waving an Irish tricolour, being a known Republican/Taig/Fenian etc or speaking Irish in court -then justice and the law in Northern Ireland were not only distant cousins but not even on speaking terms .

    We’ll see what happens when ‘justice’ is eventually devolved to the new Government . Hopefully it will be an improvement on the past and hopefully Irish people in Northern Ireland will be able to give their full support to the law.

    I’m afraid a simple black and white mentality as regards the law works best in countries which have overwhelming support for the Government and ‘constitution’ of the State . That was never the case in Northern Ireland and thus your black and white mentality leads nowhere except back to the past which is where you are probably most comfortable anyway .

    The rest of us meanwhile look forward to a more flexible and just future !

  • Greenflag

    ‘I have never claimed that the UK had a body of constitutional law superior to ordinary law.’

    Fair enough . Perhaps it’s something they might consider ? Maybe at some future time when the British ‘subject’ is raised to the status of ‘citizen ‘