“so I am delighted to be in a position to provide funding..”

Whilst members of the Orange Order protest in parts of Northern Ireland, the Republic of Ireland’s Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, Éamon Ó Cuív, has given approval for funding of €120,000 per annum over a two year period to Cadolemo Ltd – a company set up by Orange lodges based in Cavan, Donegal, Leitrim and Monaghan. From the Irish Times front page report

Mr Ó Cuív has pointed out that his department has already been involved in supporting the refurbishment of a number of Orange halls in the Cavan/Monaghan area under local grant schemes. He also deplored the recent attacks on Orange halls.

“A number of Orange halls in rural areas have been attacked in recent times, activities I totally deplore, so I am delighted to be in a position to provide funding which will be focused, among other things, on developing those facilities for the various groups that use them,” said Mr Ó Cuív.

The Minister said he hoped the work of the new company would also help to strengthen the confidence of the groups that use Orange halls. He stressed the importance of encouraging participation by Orange lodges in the wider community structures in the Border counties.

, , , ,

  • darth rumsfeld

    good for O Cuiv, a thoughtful man who has an Orange Order bicentenary medal in his cabinet
    ( I gave it to him!)

  • sumfoolery

    Hopefully, in the same spirit as IRFU funding in da North, Mr O’Cuiv will insist on orangies singing AnaB when in the jurisdiction. And singing it with Gusto too, not just the mumble we get from the rugger crowd.

  • Democratic

    “Hopefully, in the same spirit as IRFU funding in da North, Mr O’Cuiv will insist on orangies singing AnaB when in the jurisdiction. And singing it with Gusto too, not just the mumble we get from the rugger crowd”

    Yeah and hopefully you’ll win a game of holding your breath until that happens troll….

  • lib2016

    Way to go – far better to have co-operation like this than the confrontational attitude so often taken up elsewhere. Hopefully it will shock some of the eijits involved in the recent arson campaign into trying to think about what they are doing for a change.

  • The Truth

    This is pandering at the highest level. Giving money to a right-wing, facist, sectarian grouping of thugs serves no purpose.

  • Greenflag

    ‘Hopefully it will shock some of the eijits involved in the recent arson campaign into trying to think about what they are doing for a change.’

    Good move by O’Cuiv . These halls are used as community halls for young protestants from the border areas and are used to teach them how to play a musical instrument etc etc .

    It may be a little presumptious to hope said ‘eejits’ actually have the requisite ‘brain cells’ that would enable ‘thought’ to occur .

    One thing is certain -the ROI taxpayer will not appreciate seeing their ‘donation’ going up in smoke . We have neither the patience nor the resources of HMG .

  • not surprised

    Last nights shenanigans in Banbridge was just a stunt to show the Brethern that they are still ‘hard line’ just before taking the punt (sorry Euro).

  • Greenflag

    ‘Giving money to a right-wing, facist, sectarian grouping of thugs serves no purpose.’

    So giving money to left wing , fascist , sectarian groups of thugs serves a purpose ?

    These halls are used to educate young protestants in the musical arts and as community centres . What’s wrong with that ? Keeps them off the streets and out of trouble . I’m sure the GAA halls do similar good work ?

  • The Truth

    The Orange Order stinks of sectarianism. I know thats very difficult for yourself to accept that your old gandpa was a setarian bigot, but thems the breaks.

  • PaddyReilly

    What’s wrong with that ? Keeps them off the streets and out of trouble.

    I thought the whole problem with Orange Lodges is that they do not keep young men off the streets.

  • lib2016

    That’s a nice one-liner Paddy but south of the border the Orange Order don’t have the same fondness for frightening children and old ladies. Even in the North most of the marchs are just a bloody nuisance rather than a chance for some sectarian triumphalism.

    If these lodges genuinely represent a local culture (and I presume that the Minister will have checked that they do) then they deserve the money. The grant may even influence the thinking of people like myself who would have rejected Orangeism totally in the past. A politican who gives a lead? Whodathunkit?

  • “04.01.08 Minister of State Pat Carey T.D. announces funding of approximately €23m for Community Development Projects and Organisations”

  • The Dubliner

    It’s a bit dubious for the government to be using public money to fund private organisations that exclude citizens from membership on the basis of their religion. At what point did it become government policy to endorse sectarianism to the detriment of pluralism? Is it okay to fund groups that discriminate against Catholics, but not against gays, women, blacks, Protestants or Jews? At what point did the government decide this new policy, and without Dáil debate? I doubt that this foolish decision will be challenged in the courts as appeasement and bribery is the new black and none of the politicians have the balls to object.

    It is, of course, appeasement – and from a deluded minister who openly advocates Ireland joining the Commonwealth as “a gesture to Unionists.” There are probably quasi-plausible arguments which could be made for membership if one were to overlook that the head of that organisation is also an office that excludes Catholics, but joining as a form of appeasement to the citizens of another state isn’t one of them.

  • George

    The Dubliner,
    At what point did it become government policy to endorse sectarianism to the detriment of pluralism?

    Section 9 of the Equal Status Act 2000:

    “9.—(1) For the purposes of section 8 , a club shall not be considered to be a discriminating club by reason only that—

    (a) if its principal purpose is to cater only for the needs of—

    (i) persons of a particular gender, marital status, family status, sexual orientation, religious belief, age, disability, nationality or ethnic or national origin.”

    So the Orange Order fits the criteria.

    Also, to the best of my knowledge, the Grand Orange Lodge of Ireland “in effect” only represents the organisation in Northern Ireland these days. Am open to correction on that one.

  • George

    Also, forgot to add. The grant is to Cadolemo and the work it will be doing.

  • Greenflag

    ‘I thought the whole problem with Orange Lodges is that they do not keep young men off the streets. ‘

    Okay for a few days a year I’ll admit that some of them can be ‘boisterous’ but surely for most of the year they ‘behave’ themselves . What’s so bad about a few kids learning to play a few musical instruments in a church hall in the middle of a miserable winter in god forsaken Fermanagh or Antrim ?

    Dubliner’s

    ‘It’s a bit dubious for the government to be using public money to fund private organisations that exclude citizens from membership on the basis of their religion. ‘

    Fair enough and you have a point . I refer you above to the great Irish talent /capacity for fudge solutions . O’Cuiv (O’Keefe) has reached out to a people who have been ‘forgotten’ by their own to a large extent . They will probably end up in a repartitioned Ireland on the Republican side of the new fence . Not sure that the Government has not doled out ‘funds’ to other minority communities e.g new immigrants etc .

  • Watchin

    This is an organisation that teaches children sectarian bigotry. Not for this centuary please.

  • Prince Eoghan

    What a serious SNAFU. The colonial mentality sits well with some people only too well.

  • Greenflag, it seems this money is to be spent in the ‘godforsaken’ counties of Cavan, Donegal, Leitrim and Monaghan ….

    Dubliner, it’s quite likely that community funding goes to lots of partisan organisations.

  • The Dubliner

    George, coincidently, I was just looking at that document online, the 2000 & 2004 versions. Didn’t ‘club’ refer to a licence to sell alcohol, and provide for a penalty of 30 days suspenion of the licence, not to an organisation which excludes members by religion? I only read it quickly but I suspect that I picked up more of it that you did. 😉

    By the way:

    “THE Orange Order wants the Irish Government to provide more than €1 million to refurbish 11 Orange halls in County Donegal.

    This follows a meeting at Aras an Uachtarán between President Mary McAleese and Dr. Martin MacAleese with Orange Order leaders from the border counties. Among the issues discussed were the Aughrim battle site, the Battle of the Boyne site and funding for Orange community groups and halls in the Republic.

    The County Grand Master in Donegal, Mr David Mahon, was at the meeting and made a call for funding for the Donegal Orange halls, some of which are up to 100 years old and are in a bad state.

    Mr Mahon said that in the changing political climate he felt the time was right to approach the Government for funding for Halls in South Donegal whereas Orange Halls in East Donegal have managed to secure funding through cross border initiatives such as the Peace and Reconciliation Fund if they open their buildings for wider community use.”

    No harm in chancing your arm.

    Greenflag, I think it best to focus on the principle that a government should not fund organisations which seek to discriminate against its citizens on the basis of their religion. I could understand bribery if it was condition based (i.e. linked to reforms within the OO) even if I still wouldn’t approve of it, but this is simply bribery aimed at political hacks gaining transient kudos at the expense of the broader society. Of course people are going to love you when you are throwing taxpayers money at them. However, stop throwing the money and the screaming starts all over again – only louder next time. Kids and sweeties, my son. Step outside of the appeasement box and see this for what it is: the exact equivalent of a government funding an anti-Jewish group. It is wrong for the State to endorse sectarianism.

  • “This is an organisation that teaches children sectarian bigotry.”

    Sounds like duplication as clearly many already get that from the blogosphere.

    “Not for this centuary please.”

    Maybe the Orange Order could start teaching spelling instead?

  • “It is wrong for the State to endorse sectarianism.”

    Right. No funding, recognition or undue influence given to any church then. Sounds like a wonderful idea.

  • Watchin

    Beano, you are a low person, endorcing this vile organisation.

  • I haven’t endorsed anything with those 2 comments except you learning to spell (it’s endorsing by the way) and the even treatment of all organisations which discriminate against people on religious grounds – including churches.

  • Hill16FantasticView

    Beano,
    What funding do Churches, RC or COI get?

  • Hill16FantasticView

    Apologies, should be “gopvernment funding”!!!
    D’oh

  • Hill16FabntasticView

    Sorry again…typing too fast
    should read “government funding”

  • George

    Dubliner,
    Didn’t ‘club’ refer to a licence to sell alcohol, and provide for a penalty of 30 days suspenion of the licence, not to an organisation which excludes members by religion? I only read it quickly but I suspect that I picked up more of it that you did. 😉

    I double-checked and there is no definition of club but it seems exciseable goods do have to be involved

  • Greenflag

    ‘the exact equivalent of a government funding an anti-Jewish group.’

    I see your point and don’t disagree. All I would say is that these ‘communities’ need some support and this is OO hall reconstruction is only a small part of the overall deal which will also benefit everybody in this ‘forgotten’ region.

    ‘ It is wrong for the State to endorse sectarianism.

    No question – but the OO is not the only ‘charitable’ organisation in Ireland /North or South that is sectarian based . Perhaps the OO are being bribed (sorry persuaded to become less sectarian thus the Minister’s call to make their ‘facilities ‘ available to the broader community . A kind of mini Croke Park initiative . Probably a good thing for all concerned ?

    I enjoy and admire your relentless rigorous logic Dubliner but only a few of us are Vulcans 🙂

  • Hill16 – to be honest I don’t know. It’s not just about funding though, as I said above: “No funding, recognition or undue influence” (and that’s not just a problem in the Republic, in fact I’m thinking of specific examples in the UK).

  • ulsterfan

    I hope this is the first of many grants to the OO in the South to make up for the neglect suffered by the beleaguered Protestant community in border counties.

  • PaddyReilly

    What’s so bad about a few kids learning to play a few musical instruments in a church hall in the middle of a miserable winter in god forsaken Fermanagh or Antrim.

    As pointed out the grant is for godforsaken Cavan etc. Would it not be possible to encourage the learning of musical instruments without dividing people up on sectarian grounds first? Would an English authority give a grant to a ‘Whites only’ band?

  • lib2016

    Isn’t there enough division in society North and South? I’m not a Christian, in fact I’m opposed to all organised religion but that doesn’t mean that I would like to see groups like the Salvation Army and St. Vincent de Paul barred from acess to government funds where sensible people deem it to be appropriate.

    It’s a shock to me that the Orange Order can put up a case for funding but it does seem plausible that the CoI don’t do Parochial Halls – I have no idea how Protestant social life works but I imagine they have difficulties in areas where they are few in number. Until somebody comes up with an alternative way to fund social life in these areas I will continue to support the Minister, though it’s hard after a lifetime of being agin the government.

  • AntiChrist

    Who’d begrudge a few pounds for the orange.
    The green gets plenty.

  • The Dubliner

    “All I would say is that these ‘communities’ need some support and this is OO hall reconstruction is only a small part of the overall deal which will also benefit everybody in this ‘forgotten’ region.”

    The problem with that response, Greenflag, is that you could apply it to justify the granting of funds to any organisation irrespective of what that organisation promotes, as it doesn’t address the issue of whether it is proper for a government to offer public funds to a private organisation which discriminates against that governments’ citizens by religion. Clearly, it is not proper for a government to do so.

    “No question – but the OO is not the only ‘charitable’ organisation in Ireland /North or South that is sectarian based .”

    Can you name another sectarian organisation that receives government funding without conflating private organisations with organised religions? The OO is not a religion: it is a private club.

    “Perhaps the OO are being bribed (sorry persuaded to become less sectarian thus the Minister’s call to make their ‘facilities ‘ available to the broader community .”

    No, that is the minister covering his arse. This funding was floated last year and there are no conditions attached to it. It is a quarter of a million of taxpayer’s money which is given to a private organisation to do work that should be done by a volunteer – if the OO needs a ‘community worker’ at all. It is subject to audit? I very much doubt it as the OO would have a hard job explaining how a ‘job’ requiring a few hours effort a week making a few phone calls to local clubs asking them if they’d like to use a hall out in the arse end of nowhere for a line dance or a bingo session, ect, has a salary of 125,000 a year attached to it.

    This is pigs getting their snouts into the taxpayer’s through. Bribery does not address the underlining issues: it just perverts the decision making process leaving the problems unresolved. Bribing the OO won’t reform it in anyway, and the goodwill will vanish as soon as the free money stops. As the Irish say, “Eaten bread is soon forgotten.”

    By the way, at a guess, how much of MI5’s annual budget of a few hundred million to spend on NI went on bribery of political, media, and other influential figures and now much of it went of office administration and spy cams? I bet you the lion’s share of it went on buying people. Multiply that budget by several decades and you can imagine the scale of people who are now under the control of foreign agencies. Bribery is best left to the corrupt.

  • The Dubliner

    One last by-the-way, by the way. 😉

    An entity is not sectarian when it is pro-protestant: it becomes sectarian when it is explicitly anti-catholic. Ergo, a Trócaire is not the same entity as the OO.

  • darth rumsfeld

    “An entity is not sectarian when it is pro-protestant: it becomes sectarian when it is explicitly anti-catholic. Ergo, a Trócaire is not the same entity as the OO.”

    eureka the boy’s got it!!

    The Orange Order is pro-Protestant, which is different from anti-RC. Yes, it has anti-RC rhetoric in its constitution- as all churches have- by way of distinguishing from the errors of others as they see it. But as for being explcitly anti-RC- in the way the KKK is vigorously anti-black, to make a tedious comparison- then the Orange is a spectacular failure.

    Here’s the evidence. The Orange Order organises parades, church services, fraternal events whether social or charitable. Some of these may be irritating, inconvenient, or cause others to take offence.

    That clearly is not their aim, because if it were , and if the organisation were explicitly anti-RC then it would be applying to hold parades to Casement park, Crossmaglen etc. It would be picketing chapels to keep them closed – instead of no less a person than the Grand Master standing outside Harryville in support of the churchgoers. It would be bombing, shooting, intimidating…er, you know, all the things the Deputy First Minister’s chums used to get up to…

  • happy lundy

    “It’s a shock to me that the Orange Order can put up a case for funding but it does seem plausible that the CoI don’t do Parochial Halls”

    Huh?

    Where did you think COI and Presbyterian scout troops meet?

  • darth rumsfeld

    I couldn’t finish my last post so picking up..
    the point is that none of the things Orangemen do actually give Rome a moment’s difficulty. Tarot cards and astrology do more damage to RC beliefs than we do.Our activities are self-evidently communal, traditional- even ritualistic- and reactive.

    No prosyltising, blowing up chapels, or picketing voluntary schools. Nor is there a vast conspiracy to disenfranchise or keep “themmuns” out of employment, whatever the loonier, primeval conspiracists might think. Some of the stuff on Slugger about Orangeism is of the same calibre as the views of those who see the Illuminati and Bilderberg group as running the world at the behest of Satan.

    If you were depending on Schomberg House to tear down the Holy See you’d be a fool. If some of the rhetoric on 12th platforms goes beyond the predominant ecumenical dialogue of polite middle class society it’s surely only a temporary irritant. Orangeism has singularly failed to influence any aspect of politics for decades, if not centuries.

    If I really wanted to be anti-Catholic, I could probably think of a hundred tactics more effective than going for a long walk in a dark suit and funny hat on a summer day.

  • George

    Darth,
    “Orangeism has singularly failed to influence any aspect of politics for decades, if not centuries.”

    Now that’s a doozer.

    The starving people of Mayo would have disagreed with that as during the Land War of the 1880s they saw the Orange Order scabs come a harvesting for Captain Boycott.

    The same would probably go for the good Catholics of Belfast as the A, B and C Specials, all recruited by the Orange Order, made their appearance.

    Now those buckos had influence, the sort of armed and dangerous influence that ordinary folk have a tendency to listen to.

    What percentage of the Prime Ministers of Northern Ireland 1921-1971 were members of the Orange Order again? 100% perchance?

  • RepublicanStones

    ‘Orangeism has singularly failed to influence any aspect of politics for decades, if not centuries’

    well they seemed to have a good hold of the UUP for quite some time. but if the above is true, what is the point of the OO?

  • Robin Hood(ie)’s Friend

    Who’d begrudge a few pounds for the orange.
    The green gets plenty.

    And that is the problem. What about us whites like lib2016?

  • Rodney Og.

    What s the big deal with O Cuiv spending taxpayers money in Cavan , Monaghan…etc, while last week Bertie was up with Ian at the Galgorm Manor spa, how much taxpayers monet bought him that invite,? only to be spent on pampering well healed Unoinists in Ians back yard. At least O Cuiv is spending the monies on R.O.I taxpayers.?

  • No Dozer

    Dubliner

    “People are going to love you when you are throwing taxpayers money at them”

    Surely as citizens and taxpayers in your beloved Republic these protestants and non republicans are intitled to parity of esteem when it comes to a hand out of their countries money. How much has the anti Unionist G.A.A. recieved over the last eighty years or so? How many members of the the brethren from the south have been inprisoned for anti state activities compared to G.A.A. members?

  • darth rumsfeld

    “The starving people of Mayo would have disagreed with that as during the Land War of the 1880s they saw the Orange Order scabs come a harvesting for Captain Boycott.”

    Oh please. One small incident involving about 100 Orangemen which fizzled out and was tried nowhere else- not remotely on the same scale as the Plan of Campaign- it hardly transformed labour laws or working practises, especially in places like Belfast where the Orange was strong. Boycott was so ungrateful that he even charged them for their food

    “The same would probably go for the good Catholics of Belfast as the A, B and C Specials, all recruited by the Orange Order, made their appearance.”

    Except they weren’t recruited by the Orange Order,but the NI government, and the last I checked they hadn’t been around for rather a long time. The C Specials in particular hardly even went out to bat before being disbanded.
    Even Farrell thinks it was more a case of the old UVF being recruited into the B Specials, and recent historical studies like Bowman’s book proves the link between the original UVF and Orange to be surprisingly weak in some areas, especially Belfast where most of the communal violence occurred in the 1920-22 period.

    “What percentage of the Prime Ministers of Northern Ireland 1921-1971 were members of the Orange Order again? 100% perchance”

    Yup, and what of it. 100% of them were also men, and members of Protestant churches.So what? I’m guessing now , but a high proportion of them were probably members of golf clubs too. it doesn’t mean they took directions on politics from any club or group they belonged to. I hope you appreciate how hard I’m resisting the urge to guess that 100% of Taoisigh were members of the GAA because that would also have no relevance to their politics. It was a box to tick on the political cv.

    Every single Unionist PM,including Brookeborough and Craig was criticised by the Orange Order-often vigourously- and every single Unionist PM largely ignored the criticisms. None held a senior Orange post, though some became honorary office holders when out of office, such as Brookeborough becoming County Grand Master of Fermanagh. Most of them hardly darkened the door of their lodge room until the 12th morning

    Orange populism could elect candidates like Sloan in South Belfast or later Nixon on the Shankill, but it was powerless to impose any agenda contrary to the wishes of the Unionist establishment. You didn’t deliberately pick a fight with the Orange,as that was dumb politics, but if they picked one with you, you made sure you won. Hence Brian Faulkner was summoned to a meeting of Grand Lodge in Brownlow House in 1971 to be lectured on the need for tougher security, went, told them how it was going to be, and went back to running things his way. Noone tried that again.

  • happy lundy

    “How many members of the the brethren from the south have “at the Galgorm Manor spa, how much taxpayers monet bought him that invite,? only to be spent on pampering well healed Unoinists in Ians back yard”

    Didn’t know Galgorm had a no taigs policy.

    Or that the ROI taxpayer was subsidising it.

    Or did you mean that Bertie’s doing the pampering?

    I’m not sure I’d want him walking up and down my back in his bare feet.

  • darth rumsfeld

    Orange Order’s big campaign in the 1860s
    “Stop the disestablishment of the Church of Ireland”- total failure

    Orange Order’s big campaign of the 1920s
    “keep the Protestant schools-oppose the Londonderry Act”- total failure

  • George

    Darth,
    The Ulster Unionist Council when it was set up had an arrangement where 25 per cent were nominated by the Orange Order.

    You saying they had no influence is like the Labour Party saying the Trade Unions had no influence.

    Sure, Labour leaders were criticised by Trade Union members just like Unionist leaders were criticised by OO members but to say the OO “failed to influence any aspect of politics for decades, if not centuries” is an untenable position.

    This is what the Grand Orange Lodge of Ireland has to say about its involvement in politics:

    “Whenever the Ulster Unionist Council was formed in 1905, the Orange Institution played a leading role.

    Only three ministers in the entire history of the Stormont Govermment 1921-1971 were not member of the Orange Order.

    This is also from the Order’s website:

    “The Orange Institution is simply a pressure group which is concerned to see that the Ulster Unionist Party remains firm on the Constitution” – the Rev. W. Martin Smyth, Grand Master of Ireland (1972-1996).

    Should you tell them they have had no influence or shall I?

  • lib2016

    The political part of the Orange contribution to society is undeniable. What I would be more concerned about is the reality of their charitable status. I’ve had a little look on the net and frankly there’s not much evidence bar the mention of one vehicle sent very publicly to Africa with no committment of further support.

    I dimly remember them trying to start Credit Unions in imitation of John Hume but does that qualify them as a charity? Maybe one of the brethen could enlighten us further and settle the argument?

  • Prince Eoghan

    >>#I hope this is the first of many grants to the OO in the South to make up for the neglect suffered by the beleaguered Protestant community in border counties.
    Posted by ulsterfan on Feb 05, 2008 @ 07:15 PM<< I wonder how many Prods would describe themselves as beleaguered or neglected? Do you have any evidence to back up this silly statement? Any Prods that I have came across(mainly in Donegal) are an integral part of Irish society, indeed they would be embarrassed that others use their supposed plight for their own ends. Darth C'mon!!!!!!! You have been hitting the OJ laced with voddy a bit too hard. So the OO are not out church burning and the like, so this proves that they are in no way anti-Catholic, huh! Lol, I supposes the loonies over at ATW would not like to be classed as Muslim friendly simply because they are not out pulling Burkha's of passing wimmen. An absolutely absurd notion that you put forward. Tell you what, next time those good old boys with sashes go past my house, and the hanger's on are shouting "fuck the pope!" or singing songs about there; "being no nuns and no priests" I'll write a letter to the grand-master, expressing my surprise that a noted friendly organisation which is legendary for it's non-belligerence towards Catholics, has followers that go against their traditions. Gie's peace!

  • Greenflag

    ‘If I really wanted to be anti-Catholic, I could probably think of a hundred tactics more effective than going for a long walk in a dark suit and funny hat on a summer day. ‘

    One would hope so 🙂 Good one !

  • Greenflag

    Dubliner

    ‘No, that is the minister covering his arse.’

    Too true .

    ‘This is pigs getting their snouts into the taxpayer’s through.’

    A technique not unknown to ‘pigs’ of all denominations and none .

    ‘Bribery does not address the underlining issues:’

    Look at it this way fellow Dub 🙂 -Forty years of farting around with talks about no talks and agreements which did’nt agree etc etc etc etc etc with tens if not hundreds of millions squandered not to mention the thousands of hours spent by our elected politicians having to deal with NI and the monies O’Cuiv is doling out do not sound too bad .

    I ‘concede’ defeat as against the logic of your argument ( this could be a first for GF :(), and your points re the OO are taken . Nonetheless a hand needs to be outstretched to a small community which has suffered on both sides of the border probably since Partition and certainly over the past four decades . And while it’s true that ‘eaten bread is soon forgotten’ we’re not talking about more than a few thin slices . The jolly green giant will continue to grow larger than it’s wee jaffa cousin for the next decade or more . As for the OO reforming ? A matter of time I’d say . Many Northern Prods are now emabarassed by some of the more extreme behaviour of the wilder elements. Also the OO has been losing membership. The OO needs to find a new niche for itself within modern day NI and I believe they are trying to have some kind of internal debate ?. There are of course less colourful ways to display pride in Protestanism and I know many Northern prods do just that by being decent people and doing the best they can every day.

  • Dec

    So the OO are not out church burning and the like, so this proves that they are in no way anti-Catholic, huh

    PE

    Spot on. Darth keeps using the Grand Master at Harryville argument as definitive proof that there isn’t a sectarian bone in an Orangeman’s body, conveniently ignoring the fact that the Harryville protestors included a large ‘Orange presence’ (and a few Unionist Elected represenatives – proto-Nationalist Outreach, perhaps). That being said, I don’t see anything wrong with this grant in the interests of mutual tolerance etc. Though cultural respect still appears to be a one-way street.

  • Prince Eoghan

    Dec

    My first instincts(and yours obviously)and I’d guess many others instincts, would be to welcome grants to pro-whatever organisations. However the OO in it’s present state should not be awarded any kind of public money, anywhere. Perhaps if the OO in the Republic were making noises about dropping the anti-Catholic belligerence. Or like the Tories in Scotland, thinking about cutting the apron strings from the undesirable parents, perhaps then compromise and concessions could be considered. however at the moment SNAFU is the best way to describe it. I hope one of these new Irish white power groups appeals for public money, get’s denied and subsequently appeals citing the OO as an example.

    Now that would be entertaining!

  • From Limerick

    Why should our government give to those who pledge their allegience to a foreign head of state. And this is certainly not of protestants around here in this community.
    Ó Cúiv, cancel the cheque you pandering idiot.

  • Dec

    Prince

    I think I’d be of a different opinion if the money was given to knuckle-draggers like Dawson Bailie as opposed to Orangemen in Leitrim and the like. (Though just think how many ceremonial swords Dawson could buy with €250K for the brethren to swing at Police Officers on the Queen’s Highway.)

  • happy lundy

    Well timed of FF. I liked the minister’s point that the historical context of the founding of an organisation shouldn’t dictate contemporary perceptions of it.

    Something we’ll hear again as FF chases the non-aligned/liberal unionist vote up north no doubt.

  • darth rumsfeld

    “Darth keeps using the Grand Master at Harryville argument as definitive proof that there isn’t a sectarian bone in an Orangeman’s body, conveniently ignoring the fact that the Harryville protestors included a large ‘Orange presence’”

    Well I just don’t know if there were any Orangemen at the protest- though it’s quite possible there were- but it’s been claimed elsewhere that the public face of the protest included some members of the Independent Orange. And I’m not stupid enough to claim there are no sectarian Orangemen. But it cannot be denied that the leadership confonted indefensible sectarianism on the streets at a physical risk to themselves, and if all the footsoldiers were out of step with this the leaders would have been sanctioned for doing so.

    All it proves is that leaders may not always be able to bring all members with them- as with any organisation. here’s an example- isn’t that a bit like the GAA leadership being ignored by the owners of Casement Park when they hosted a Hunger Strike rally last year in defiance of the wishes of Croke Park? Perhaps you could give just a teensy bit of credit where it’s due for an extremely significant gesture?

    Prince Eoghan’s point is interesting, if a tad illogical from his perspective. Is he really wanting an all-Ireland body to go partitionist? I’ve always been keen to learn from the Southern brethren about their experience, which is usually moderate and far from belligerent. They are far from belligerent, and when they have tried to do their own thing- like a modest event on Dawson Street- they were vilified and had to cancel in the face of threats.

    If you want to pull them away from the “bad northerners”, surely you’ll succeed more with inducements like O’Cuiv’s than with condemnation based on fanciful folk memories about Captain Boycott? If that means you have to do the heavy lifting for the peace process for once, isn’t it a fair price to pay?

    “Why should our government give to those who pledge their allegience to a foreign head of state.”
    So no money for the GAA from Pootsie then?

  • No Dozer

    “Why should our goverment give to those who pledge their allegience to a foreign head of state”

    “So no money for the GAA from pootsie then?”

    You could also stick the I.R.F.U. in there as well, as they recieved £400,000 of brish taxpayers money and then banned the British flag and anthem from their ground in Belfast as it was deemed an away match last year, and yet impose their Republican anthem and flag on every Unionist who attend “home” games in Dublin.