British passport ‘now in Irish’ blooper…

SOME of Willie Frazer‘s mates are so distressed that they received their shiny new UK passports “written in Irish” that FAIR is launching a campaign against them, involving lobbying MPs and taking it up with the Foreign Office. “This is clearly a dilution of our Britishness and for ever denotes UK citizens resident in Northern Ireland as different and lesser than their counterparts in England Scotland and Wales,” the FAIR website fulminates. “This is not the case in the rest of the UK and we are sickened that those in our country who fought and sacrificed most to remain British are dealt such an insult.” Just one problem… the ‘Irish’ is actually Scots-Gaelic. Oops!

  • And so they come, the Slugger hordes..lol!

    Alright, I’ll leave you with the following.

    Pounder,

    Get yourself a sense of humour.

    Jo,

    You remind me how nice it is on ATW where moonbats are banned.

    Lenny,

    Northern Ireland is “occupied?” Really. Gosh – don’t tell those fools who sell the GFA then.

    CTB,

    I doubt your prayers will reach higher than the celing. Save them for yourself.

    Gaelgannaire,

    Is Ireland British? If not, that makes Irish a FOREIGH language. Just like Urdu, but with millions of fewer speakers. Scots and Welsh, in case you hadn’t noticed, are part of our wonderful United Kingdom. Still doesn’t mean they should be on the UK Passport, after all Navaho isn’t on the US passport.

    Oliver,

    I oppose multiculturalism because it is toxic. It’s a plague inflicted by liberals.

    Now, you’ve all been very good little Sluggerettes but I do have my own blog to run y’know! Toodle-pip, or whatever that is Irish.

  • Reader

    OILibhear Chromaill: So what exactly is British about you?
    I can’t speak for Willowfield, but in my case, ‘citizenship’ and ‘identity’.
    Or were you coinfused by the reference to ‘GB’? That’s the name of the big island to our right. GB doesn’t include the Orkneys or the Shetland islands either. What next – will you say Rathlin Islanders aren’t Irish?

  • gaelgannaire

    David,

    David, I wrote ‘Northern Ireland (UK)’, you yourself say it is ‘British’. Youself use the term ‘Gaelic’.

    Both Scotland and Northern Ireland are in the UK and by your definition British, why is Gaelic (your term) foriegn in one but not the other?

    Is knowledge of English a prerequiste for Britishness in your view?

  • Oiliféar

    David Vance, Northern Ireland is British. Irish is a language native to Northern Ireland. It is a native language of the UK. How on earth do you then conclude that Irish is a “foreign language”?

    I asked you before to consider the logic of your position, to ask yourself what it means to be British and to be man enough to step up to it. Do it.

  • willowfield

    DAVID VANCE

    Is Ireland British?

    Part of it is, yes.

    If not, that makes Irish a FOREIGH language.

    What if part of it is?

  • Lenny

    Bye Bye Daithi,

    Come back soon and give us another laugh and remember to chill out.

  • Well done Vance run away like a coward when you get verbaly spanked. Hide in you blog and ignore the mean boys who wouldn’t play nice, isn’ that typical unionist mentality? Head in sand, fingers in ears and hum some “loyalist party tunes”, anything to avoid the harsh reality they people. Enjoy running your blog, how well does that pay?

  • Oilifar,

    I do not dispute that few people here have spoken the language you call Irish. So what? The VAST majority here speak English, they write in English, and so it seems entirely logical to me that their passport – a symbol of their identity -is in the language that they speak and write. That language – gasp horror – is ENGLISH and no matter how many Sluggerettes like to imagine otherwise, in terms of the UK, it is less significant than Klingon.

  • Hill16FantasticView

    David,

    Why have you failed to respond top Dewi’s question? I think its all the more relevant as he is a Welshman. Is he not British enough to deserve a response?

  • Prince Eoghan

    Sorry to join in the bash the bigot session but………………..Don’t you get the impression that DV is loving all the attention. I bet he is walking ten foot tall right now, small men and all that.

    BTW all, I did warn you about his brass neck. It would take some man/woman to redden that neck. God bless America, with supporters like that, she is badly in need of a blessing.

  • Joe

    Jo,

    You remind me how nice it is on ATW where moonbats are banned.

    Ah, this must be the famous ‘playing the ball’ that’s so rigorously enforced on Slugger. Anyway, are you going explain why a document whose chief purpose is to enable the bearer to travel freely outside the UK should not have non-UK languages on it?

    And I’d been planning to let it pass, but it might help your case somewhat if you were to learn how to put together a coherent and grammatically correct sentence in the language you’re so keen to promote. Or do you really think “when we get to the Passport we need to all obscurist languages” is good English?

  • gaelgannaire

    David,

    I would also appreciate a response.

    Both Scotland and Northern Ireland are in the UK and by your definition British, why is Gaelic (your term) foriegn in one but not the other?

    Also, where the tens of thousands of boys who died in WWI who spoke nothing but a celtic language British in your view?

    If they are not then how do you condemn Scottish and Welsh nationalism?

  • gaelgannaire,

    Thanks for your polite question.

    First no one, lest of all me, disputes the bravery and integrity of those Irishmen who defended liberty in WW1. I doubt that they all went off to fight speaking nothing but Gaelic however, and am unaware of those Divisions who only spoke this language. Can you name them?

    Second,

    I find Scottish and Welsh nationalism repugant. Luckily so do most Scots and Welsh.

    Joe,

    Thanks for the lesson in grammar, good English is indeed essential to getting on in life and I enjoyed the substance of your point. Ahem.

    Prince Eoghan,

    I’m 5 11 – are you a giant by chance?

    All,

    You’ve had your lot. I really should charge you for my time but I do so enjoy the warmth and inclusivity here on Slugger.

    Slán go fóill.
    Qapla’

    😉

  • gaelgannaire

    David,

    You have answered nether of my questions.

    Please note I did not say ‘all’. I am refering specifically to Scottish Gaels and Welsh in this instance as you will see from my questions.

    But you will be aware that many people in 1914 in both Wales and Scotland where at that time monoglot Welsh and Gaelic speakers respectively.

    There were no exclusively divisions of celtic speaking people but large numbers of Welsh and Highlanders were lost in WWI, indeed this war is considered a blow to both languages.

    I find your refusal to answer the question quite sad actually. I repeat.

    Is knowledge of English a prerequiste for Britishness in your view?

    Are Welsh and Scottish Gaelic speakers British?

    Both Scotland and Northern Ireland are in the UK and by your definition British, why is Gaelic (your term) foriegn in one but not the other?

    Simple questions. A man of your intellect should have no problem answering them directly.

  • Prince Eoghan

    DV

    >>Prince Eoghan,

    I’m 5 11 – are you a giant by chance?<< In every respect pertaining to you, Aye. Love the way you are having a go at this site. We "sluggerites" when criticising the administrator's point of view are not forced to temper that criticism and fawn and genuflect. honestly the saddo's over there make me laugh. A spineless bunch of sooks!

  • Dewi

    What a strange man David is. Somtimes cutting in his relentless logic other times just daft:

    “Obscurist” !!! What a strange word. Can’t even work out if its meant to be insulting.

    “Repugnant” How on God’s earth can you be consistent and find others nationalisms “repugnant”.

    Anyway – need to get a new passport cos mine’s only got English…..and French on it – bet they are pleased in Jersey.

  • gaelgannaire,

    The question is not whether someone of my intellect has answered the question, it whether you are able to understand the reply given.

    Prince Eoghan,

    I am sure ATW’s resident leftists will enjoy your comment that they fawn and genuflect. The saddo, to use your term, is located in your mirror.

    Final point – I am not here to answer questions for ANYONE. I contribute as I see fit.

  • gaelgannaire

    David,

    “I am not here to answer questions for ANYONE. I contribute as I see fit.”

    I will have to take that as pleading the fifth ammendment.

    I think your refusal to answer says it all. I am surprised, I thought you would be able to come up with something.

    I’ll leave them with you for reflection.

    * Both Scotland and Northern Ireland are in the UK and by your definition British, why is Gaelic (your term) foriegn in one but not the other?

    * Also, where the tens of thousands of boys who died in WWI who spoke nothing but a celtic language British in your view?

    * If they are not then how do you condemn Scottish and Welsh nationalism?

    I would have to point out to unionist bloggers here that of course I do not take David’s views or refusals to express a view as anyway reflective of the views of unionists and British people in general.

  • Dewi

    The situation today – strangely topical from the wonderful Adam Price MP

  • Séimí

    David vance’s theory on ‘identity’ seems to hold as much water as a collander. By his definition, ie, if you speak English you ARE English, logically, means that all Americans are therefore English, which means that all those people who died in the War of Independence died for nowt, as their descendants are still English.
    Ah well David, keep it up.
    Bhí an scéal seo fíor mhaith ar fad. Deanann amadáin cosúil le Willie Frazer níos mó maith don Ghaeilge na damáiste 🙂

  • willowfield

    DAVID VANCE

    I see you chose not to respond to my point.

    You stated: “Is Ireland British? If not, that makes Irish a FOREIGH language”.

    I asked “What if part of Ireland is British?”

  • gaelgannaire

    Willowfield,

    Do you think that the impossible has indeed happened and that David has achieved true cross community consenus on Slugger O’Toole?

    If only we could get to to blog on all the threads.

  • RepublicanStones

    Northern Ireland IS British, lol. Just check out the currency. The fact that Irish insurrectionists pretend otherwise and are indulged for it – not least by unionist politicians – ain’t my fault – David vance

    Dave i just bought petrol outside newry in Euro, this was still in the occuppied territories….is this a pocket of republic resistance i drove through? or do you talk complete bollocks by thinking nationality is defined along monetary terms? oh and irish insurrectionists, what will they be next insurgents? I’d say Rupert Murdoch makes a mint of the papers you buy. its funny all these names members of the colonial mindset have for people who had no desire to be colonized, another pathetic attempt to soothe the mind of poor unionists ‘we’re the victims’ verbal cowpat nonsense…like hte saying goes, you can’t polish a turd. thats ‘polish’ as in pledge furniture spray, not the race of people you seem to have a hang-up about !

  • Craigavoner

    From the man himself………….

    Name: william frazer
    Homepage URL: http://ulster
    Comments: REF THE VILE SECTARIAN BILE YOU TALK ABOUT ON THIS SITE,IT IS NOT THE FAULT OF US THAT IT IS THE TRUTH AND WHAT TOOK PLACE IN SOUTH ARMAGH.
    FIND SOMETHING ON THIS SITE THAT IS A LIE,AND THEY COME BACK AND SHOOT YOUR MOUTH OFF.
    CHRISTIANITY IS SOMETHING YOU DONT SEEM TO KNOW ALOT ABOUT?
    IF YOU DID THE QUESTION WOULD HAVE BEEN ABOUT HOU YOU COULD HELP THESE SICK PEOPLE THAT DID THIS ON A COMMUNITY.
    BUT YOU DONT LIKE THE TRUTH DO YOU SCUM BAG.
    Friday, January 4th 2008 – 05:36:53 PM

    Clearly losing the plot.

  • Gerry Lvs Castro

    ‘or do you talk complete bollocks by thinking nationality is defined along monetary terms?’

    Do pay attention RS. NI is part of the UK and will remain so until a majority of it’s citizens vote otherwise. On current trends, that isn’t a scenario likely to be witnessed by anyone posting on this site, including your good self.

    So no amount of hysterics over ‘colonial mindsets’ or Euros being accepted in Newry is going to alter that reality.

  • dub

    g l s,

    when the whole of ireland was in the uk, were the people in it not Irish?

    the absurdities demonstrated in this thread stem from CERTAIN (ie not the willowfield ilk) unionists’ apparent belief that northern ireland is some sort of total colony wherein all irishness has been expunged, and from their apparent inability to recognise that it is possible to be both irish and british, or just irish and nevertheless in the uk… this breed of unionist also seems to believe that the very land itself and the culture of the entire territory have been expunged of all irishness..

    it has been hard on those reared in the nationalist tradition to comprehend that many people born on the island of ireland have a sesnse of loyalty and allegiance and cultural belonging to a wider british identity.. but you might notice since the early seventies and much much much much (just want to emphasise that for you) public debate that this has now been very widely digested and accepted in nationalism…

    what is going on in some unionists’ heads like DV and perhaps yours is much much harder to understand than the initially hard to understand (for nationalists) britishness of many people on the island..

    now some want us to accept that land which has been part and parcel of ireland for millenia and people therein who have equally been here for many thousands of years (and i am including all northerners here as much research shows that the “settlers” from scotland were merely coming home again) are not irish at all… this land and people unlike scotland and wales have been totally denationalised and are some sort of colonial tabula rasa!!!!

    remember that scotland and wales are in the uk and NOONE in those countries believes this to be the case there, so why should we accept it to be the case in northern ireland (making this point in case you repeat the mantra that ni is in the uk… we all know that and that point is utterly irrelevant here)..

    your thoughts??

  • dub

    above post directed at gerry lvs castro.. and dv!

  • Gerry Lvs Castro

    Dub — first off I’m not a cheerleader for DV — I’ve posted occasionally on ATW and I can safely say I disagree with him on virtually everything, including his take on the GFA.

    My comment here was a reaction to Republican Stones, who appears (alongside a few others) to represent the fag end of Sluggerite republicanism — ‘go home colonists and let us get on with our Olympic standard MOPE’.

    I personally have no problem with anyone in NI defining themselves as either Irish or British, or both. What I do have a problem with is diehard republicans regarding unionists with a mixture of disdain and pity. Earlier in the thread we had a poster referring to unionists as slave lackeys or some such nonsense. Given the ROI experience as regards the twin jackboots of a tyrannically abusive church and corrupt moribund politics, I’d be careful in my use of the word ‘lackey.’ Up until the 90s at best, there was precious little to celebrate in the 26 counties, yet some posters here have the notion that problems only occurred north of the border.

    I’ll agree with you Dub that many nationalists have, often reluctantly, accepted the fact that a large group of people born in Ireland do not regard themselves as Irish in the accepted sense. For better or worse, Unionists identify with Britain, and almost a century after the formation of NI, continue to do so. That is unlikely to change in the near future and it’s something we all have to accept. I personally couldn’t give a toss how many languages are included in my UK passport, just as long as I can understand one of them.

    What the GFA has seemingly managed to achieve is a grudging respect between the two communities and an acceptance that both have a mutual right to exist. Inevitably there are die-hards on both sides who find this difficult to accept and continue to snipe from the sidelines. Now and again they need a gentle reminder that the overwhelming majority of people in both parts of the island voted for the GFA.

  • dub

    gerry lvs castro,

    although inevitably i would not agree with everything you say in your post (especially re: republic), many thanks for your heartening clarification…

  • ellen vannin

    I want Manx on my passport…

    I once read that Irish has only been spoken on these islands only about 900 years longer than English. It was European import itself!

    Anyway what silly people objecting to this type of thing.

  • foreign correspondent

    An bhfuil a fhios ag duine ar bith cen ceatadan de dhaoine i dTuaisceart Eireann a bhfuil pas Eireannach acu?

    Does anyone know what percentage of people in Northern Ireland have an Irish passport?

  • Citizen Anderson

    “Does anyone know what percentage of people in Northern Ireland have an Irish passport?”

    All of them

    (depending on who you’re asking)

    I say give everyone one of each.

  • Ulster McNulty

    Re: Willie Frazer

    “…we are sickened that those in our country who fought and sacrificed most to remain British are dealt such an insult.”

    Here’s a bit of trivia for Willie to ponder before he begins the campaign to have Irish expunged on behalf of victims:

    The first catholic RUC man to be killed during the troubles was Dermot Hurley, shot dead by republicans in November 1971 (he’d been lucky before that – he was standing beside Victor Arbuckle at the moment he became the first RUC victim in 1969).

    Hurley was long-serving officer, he joined in 1946. He was one of four RUC men who had officially represented the RUC at Winston Churchill’s funeral, he was 50 years old, married with 5 kids, and he was a fluent Irish speaker from Co. Wicklow.

  • willis

    Nae

    Thank you UMcN, that is exactly why it is worth wading through a load of old sh**e.

  • ozy

    Of course Willie is right in one thing. The current UK passport does dilute his Britishness but it does this BY NOT INCLUDING Irish. After all it indicates that the British do not regard Northern Ireland and a native language spoken here, Irish Gaelic, as ‘as British’ as Scots Gaelic in Scotland or Welsh in Wales.

    Couldn’t agree more with Oilifear here, esp when he says that if unionists had any sense they’d be campaigning all out for Irish to be put on par with Welsh and Scots-Gaelic!

  • Éireannach Saolta

    I cant remember who said it before I think it was republican stones but if Willie Frazer was to go into the pub trade again after his last failed venture, would that not make him a re-publican. Can we not just humour the guy. He’s a muppet

  • [i]“Does anyone know what percentage of people in Northern Ireland have an Irish passport?”

    All of them

    (depending on who you’re asking)

    I say give everyone one of each.

    Posted by Citizen Anderson on Jan 24, 2008 @ 09:56 PM[/i]

    Have you seen the price of a passport, one is expensive enough.

  • Jo

    It’s not that I have anything against the Irish language but..
    Posted by David Vance on Jan 24, 2008

    The truth of that matter that Irish is a costly and largely nationalistic driven FRAUD.
    Posted by DV on December 10, 2005

    ——————————————-
    Whatever lies you may tell or try to get away with, the Internet remembers.

  • Dewi

    Still reeling that I pay my taxes for people to come out with such nonsense.

  • George

    Foreign correspondent,
    I think there are around 300,000 Irish passport holders in Northern Ireland now.

    The number of new 10-year passports being issued to people from NI is touching 60,000 a year so at the current rate the figure will hit 600,000 within a decade.

    So it’s about 17% now and will hit 35% by 2016.

  • willowfield

    When George refers to “Irish passports” he does, of course, mean passports issued by the South.

    UK passports are no less Irish than Southern Irish ones.

  • UK passports are no less Irish than Southern Irish ones.

    Indeed – there is however less Irish on the UK passports!

  • Lovin you all

    Anyone see the Irish language programme “Imeall Geal” last night?
    Its the only time that the BBC didn’t feel foreign to me.

  • willowfield

    Less Irish Gaelic, yes!

    (Is the Southern passport completely bilingual?)

  • “UK passports are no less Irish than Southern Irish ones.
    Posted by willowfield on Jan 25, 2008 @ 01:06 PM”

    A southern Irish passport that’s a new one. The last time I looked on my passport it said Ireland. NOT Southern Ireland!

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Ireland

    Read the last line, officially the term southern Ireland has been obsolete since 1922. I guess it’s just used to wind up people in 2008.

    It’s a free country North or South, so you can call the place Betty or you can call Ireland Al.

    On a side note, would Unionists be happy with this flag as the new United Ireland flag? In a way I’d laugh if we adopted it, just to piss off “the Dubliner”.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Flag_of_the_Lord_Lieutenant_of_Ireland.svg

  • foreign correspondent

    Thanks for the figures, George.
    I think it would interesting to have a large-scale study on who in N.I. has a UK passport, who has an Irish – sorry – Republic of Ireland issued passport, who has both, and who is considering changing their passport or getting both.
    My passport has the harp on the front cover and I am happy enough to stick to it, and it only, whatever languages are on it 🙂 The passport is bilingual in Irish and English, with one page featuring the major EU languages, and with the photo page being trilingual: Irish, English and French.

  • willowfield

    DAVE

    A southern Irish passport that’s a new one. The last time I looked on my passport it said Ireland. NOT Southern Ireland!

    Doubtless it did but, nonetheless, it is only a Southern Irish one and remain as such until such time as an all-Ireland state is established.

  • OK Willow.

    How do you explain George’s reckoning that currently 300,000 Northerners now currently possess the “southern” Irish passport? I’m sure even some of these are loyal to the English Queen. As far as I know, legally if you are born anywhere on the island including offshore islands such as Rathlin you can possess an Irish passport. The Irish passport is available to obtain not just for the people of “Southern” Ireland but all of Ireland. The most loyal dyed in the wool Orangeman can get an Irish passport without any hassle.

  • willowfield

    Dave

    Southern passports are, indeed, available to people from Northern Ireland. That does not, however, mean that they are not Southern passports. Passports are issued by states: not islands.

  • Dk

    “Does anyone know what percentage of people in Northern Ireland have an Irish passport?”

    More than you’d think. The Irish one is significantly cheaper than the British one. I got Irish ones for my kids as the British one was something like £90, but the Irish one was only €15.

    Mind you, after experience the bollocks of their passport department and nearly having to cancel my holiday I’d think twice when they come up for renewal.

    A question for the Irish speakers – would you prefer the Irish language to be on the British passport as well, or would the Scottish gaelic be OK?

  • gaelgannaire

    DK,

    I have a Irish passport so it is none of my business what is on a British one.

    Having said that the Scottish version is perfectly clear and I am glad it is there.

  • Ulster McNulty

    Dk

    “A question for the Irish speakers – would you prefer the Irish language to be on the British passport as well, or would the Scottish gaelic be OK”

    In reality it’s all Gaelic – note there is no distinction in the Gaelic language itself, it’s known as “Gaelic” no matter which dialect is spoken.

    On the passport issue, you could possibly have your choice of these:

    Gaelg (Mann)
    Gaeilge (Connaught)
    Gaedhilg (Ulster)
    Gàidhlig (Scotland)
    Gaoluinn (Munster)

  • Yes Willow.

    Yes, the Irish passport is issued by the Irish State but it covers all the people of Ireland (the island).
    I think there are even Irish passport centres across the North (correct me if I’m wrong). So the Irish passport and by that extension, the Irish Government, doesn’t treat a possessor from North or South as anyway different when they’re abroad. It sees the people on the island as one unit. Anyway the symbol of the harp on the front was also a symbol of the old RUC, so we even have common ground on symbols.

    Be well.

  • As Tic

    They are not Southern Passports, they are also Western and Eastern.

  • “A question for the Irish speakers – would you prefer the Irish language to be on the British passport as well, or would the Scottish gaelic be OK?”

    If it is a UK passport I believe that all the minority languages of the UK should appear on it, including Irish Gaelic (Ulster dialect), seeing as Northern Ireland is part of the UK. There should also be Cornish, Scots and Ulster Scots. Why just English, Scottish Gaelic and Welsh? If the UK is a union, the diversity of the union should be respected.

    Just because Scottish Gaelic is related to Irish Gaelic it does not mean they are not seperate languages and so as seperate languages recognised under the European Charter for Regional and Minority Languages they BOTH should appear.

    Does anyone know if the people of the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands have British passports too? If so, that would add Manx and Norman French too.