PSNI says Orange attacks not organised, sort of…

DON’T think it got published or broadcast, but since Slugger readers seem to regard it as a big deal, the Policing Board meeting the other day heard there were 12 attacks on Orange Halls in the July holiday period and nine in October. PA reported Assistant Chief Constable (Rural) Judith Gillespie saying: “It could be interpreted as sending out a statement to increase sectarian tension.” On last month’s arson attacks she said: “There is no specific intelligence to say that these attacks are being organised to ferment sectarian tension.” (Gillespie’s heavily qualified quotes are pure policespeak. Hopefully, when the minutes are published they’ll provide greater context for what is near-gobbledegook.) The meeting also heard that the PSNI’s crime clearance rates have been around 18% since April, much lower than England (around 25%).

  • I hope provide more clarity; and I hope they’ll ‘inform’ us mortals whether or not the failure of the PSNI to produce charges in North Tyrone is a consequence of informer protection scheme.

    You’ve heard of Godwin’s Law – here’s Morse’s law: “in any group of 10 Irps at least 6 will be police informers.”

  • joeCanuck

    Higher Sammy. And the leader is no 1.
    So the answer to your first question is “probably yes.

  • joeCanuck

    Just noticed the date. Did Guy Fawkes get his last night?

  • “The meeting also heard that the PSNI’s crime clearance rates have been around 18% since April, much lower than England (around 25%).”

    Any news on the Sinn Fein member caught in the act in Newcastle, delivered right into the hands of the PSNI?

  • overhere

    This sort of lead me to think about the news report last night on the UDA involvement in drug dealing in Tigers Bay.

    It was on the BBC NI newline which said tha tpeople knew who those involved were but the dealers were beng protected by the PSNI as they were valuable informers. Going from the stats above, 18% cleanup rate, not that valuable !!

  • barneyben

    Disapointing news from the PSNI, Mick’s conspiracy was great gas while it lasted.

    ONeill
    Wasn’t your man in Newcastle actually from MI5?

  • T.Ruth

    Orde must go. With his record in and out of work and indeed during working hours he is clearly destined for promotion to be the next Head of Scotland Yard. Not long left to endure his arrogance and ineffectiveness
    T.Ruth

  • Ulster’s my homeland

    The Garda, the PSNI and the media all refuse to follow these attacks of blatant sectarianism and bigotry up to the full, because they know what is at the heart of this problem. The problem lies not solely with IRA/Sinn Fein, but it lies deep-rooted in Irish Republicanism. No matter what spin the Irish historians put on their believed Irish Republic, the fact of the matter remains that it is a bigoted, violent and repressive ideology dressed up to look like lamb.

    The only reason the Republic has escaped this type of sectarian behaviour of late, is because it virtually extinguished the Protestant Orangemen over the last century.

    The only reason the Republic is enduring this type of sectarian behaviour of late, is because it’s experiencing a growth of the Protestant Orangemen over the last 2 decades.

  • Dan

    “The only reason the Republic has escaped this type of sectarian behaviour of late, is because it virtually extinguished the Protestant Orangemen over the last century.”

    A myth.

    And you’re most likely a troll.

  • Ulster’s my homeland

    It is no myth. Reasons why the Irish Republic virtually wiped out the Potestant Orangeman are:

    In the border counties (Donegal, Leitrim, Cavan, Monaghan and Louth), there were instances of Protestants being intimidated by more extreme neighbours and groups, most notably the IRA. There are records of Protestant farmers in these areas being attacked. Many of these Protestants responded by leaving their homes and moving across the border into Northern Ireland. This also contributed to the Protestant decline between 1911 and 1926.

    Until recently, there was discrimination against Protestants in the labour market of the Republic of Ireland. For example, Trinity College, although a Dublin University, was mainly attended by Protestants. (Even today it is a stronghold of Irish Unionism.) In many jobs, Trinity College was not accepted as a source of education, so applicants who had attended Trinity were automatically rejected. This had the effect of preventing most Protestants from applying for the jobs.

    County Clare library service was told by the Irish President, Eamonn de Valera, that it should employ a Catholic chief librarian. This discrimination meant that many Irish Protestants had to migrate to Northern Ireland or Britain to seek employment. This also contributed to the trend between 1926 and 1991.

    In the Republic of Ireland, since 1926, there has been a constant pattern of Protestants marrying Catholics. In most counties (exceptions being Cork, Dublin and the border counties) there were insufficent Protestants to enable most Protestants to realistically marry another Protestant, so most married Catholics.

    The Catholic church had a requirement that the children of Catholic-Protestant marriages be brought up Catholic.

    The Republic of Ireland only recently removed the Catholic church from the ‘special’ position it once enjoyed in the country.

  • barneyben

    UMH,

    Fascinating stuff. Maybe you could back up some of it with a few facts:
    What jos did not recognise a Trinity education?
    If “most” protestants attended Trinity then it must have been a lot bigger back then. Do know how many actually suffered from Trinity not being recognised?
    Who, precisely, did not recognise Trinity?
    Why has Protestant unemployment in Ireland always been lower than every other group, given that “most” were denied job opportunities?
    How many Protestants were made unemployed by the Clare Librarian incident? I believe the overall total is in the area of zero but perhaps you know better.
    When did the Irish government set the rules of the Catholic Church?
    How did the Irish government enforce the rules of the Catholic church?

  • barneyben

    Dan,

    I should have listened to you. UMH’s trollery was simply a cut-and-paste job from http://www.wesleyjohnston.com/users/ireland/past/protestants_1861_1991.html

    This website has already been comprehensively debunked on Slugger in the past.

  • Ulster’s my homeland

    So what’s the problem?

    Do you just deny it because there’s no police records of it happening?

    Same old Irish attitude, brush it under the carpet or deny, deny, deny!

  • barneyben

    “Same old Irish attitude….”

    A bit racist, IMO. Bear in mind, UMH, that many Unionists describe themselves as Irish. Are they also in denial?

  • Ulster’s my homeland

    barneyben, Some might! After-all, some Irish Unionists geographically want the same united Ireland as Republicans, they just have opposing views towards it’s content. So IMHO, some Irish Unionists would probably be happy brushing this up as it would hinder their future plans too.

  • Stiofán de Buit

    UMH

    The problem is that ypu’re making allegations without providing supporting evidence. Anybody can do that – it’s meaningless.

    For example, I have it on good authority that in the 1930s Catholic babies in Newtownards were regularly eaten at Halloween in secret Satanic Orange ceremonies. Of course, all the records were destroyed. But it’s true. Honest.

  • Ulster’s my homeland

    So now, you’ve moved onto the ridicule mode? Typical ploy!

    In 1989 the influential Dublin magazine Magill printed figures showing that between the census of 1911 – the last to precede the Treaty – and 1981, the Protestant population of the 26 Counties fell by 63%. The drop up to 1989 it estimated at 68%. The causes of this dramatic decrease – from 10% in 1911 to 3.4% in 1981 and about 2.5% by the late 1980s – were listed as “alienation from the ethos of the State, emigration, and, over latter decades, mixed marriages”, which as has been shown earlier was a way of depopulating the Protestant people.

    The single biggest drop in Protestant numbers, says the magazine, occurred between 1911 and 1926, when a third of the Protestant population left the State – and the main factor in forcing them out was widespread intimidation and the burning of their properties.

  • Stiofán de Buit

    UMH

    It wasn’t ridicule. It was hyperbole.

  • barneyben

    UMH,

    Hard to argue with Magill’s figures, given that you neglected to provide a link. However, you seem to be to equate the Protestant population of the 26, which would be mainly CofI, to Orangeism in the 26? I am not convinved the CoI has ever been particularly fond of the OO.

    The single biggest drop in Protestant numbers, says the magazine, occurred between 1911 and 1926, when a third of the Protestant population left the State.
    Unlikely, given that the state was not founded in 1911. Hardly surprising though that the population should fall immediately after the creation of the state, given that the British Army garrisons and Civil Serveants, both predominantly Protestant, would have left with the tide. I believe there was also a cash incentive, administered from London, for them to do so.

  • Ulster’s my homeland

    Stiofán de Buit, hyperbole? What hole did that come out of?

    barneyben, if you want to start nick-picking your idiosyncratic technicalities talk to Gerry Adams or Martin McGuinnes, they’re masters of it. I haven’t time to debate your ‘counter-reformation’ that the exodus of Protestants was due to them being in the British Army.

  • nmc

    Easier to believe than the great librarian exodus of Co. Claire.

    Ridicule BTW…

  • barneyben

    UMH,

    No offence intended, but it’s hard to accept your argument when the only thing offered is a selection of cheerypicked figures from a very old magazine. Given that you are accusing an entire country of being based on “a bigoted, violent and repressive ideology”, it’s a little disapointing that you don’t care to explain yourself.
    BTW, does anybody seriously accept Mick’s ‘Orange Hall Pyromaniacal Conspiracy’ or must the PSNI prove that it never existed?

  • Ulster’s my homeland

    barneyben, The “ bigoted, violent and repressive ideology” I still maintain is deep-rooted in Irish Republicanism. The Republic of Ireland fostered that mentality until lately, and the proceeds of that fostering excluded and extinguished the Protestant Orange community.

    As for explaining myself, as I said previously I do not intend discussing a mulberry bush debate of blame and counter blame. It is not me who should be explaining their flaws, it should be the Republic of Ireland and their ethos of ethnically cleansing the Protestant people over the last century.

  • Stiofán de Buit

    UMH

    Hyperbole doesn’t rhyme with hole.

  • barneyben

    “…their ethos of ethnically cleansing the Protestant people over the last century…”

    …now that’s hyberbole.

  • Cromwell

    “BTW, does anybody seriously accept Mick’s ‘Orange Hall Pyromaniacal Conspiracy’ or must the PSNI prove that it never existed?”

    You are either being disengenuous or haven’t properly read Micks posts, because that bears no relation to anything he posted, it would also seem slightly strange to me that people who are often PSNIs biggest critics are quite happy to accept; “There is no specific intelligence to say that these attacks are being organised to ferment sectarian tension.”
    Them peelers is alright when they tell ya what ya wanna hear!

    12 attacks in July, 9 in October, no sort of conspiracy whatsoever? Dead on!

  • barneyben

    I have read quite a few of Mick’s posts, although whether or not I did so in the ‘correct’ way is debatable. The gist of Mick’s treatise, I think, is that Catholics should collectively be ashamed of themselves. This assertion is generally made in blogs regarding OO halls but the link is subliminal at best. As it’s not made clear why they should feel guilty, only that they should, some may now find themselves with the unusual sensation of feeling guilty for not feeling guilty. I guess it’s some kind of Alliance mind-fuck.
    On a brigther note, at least these days people only hint at popish frenzies, instead of coming out in the open with it as with the Great Fire Of London.
    The PSNI cannot find evidence of a campaign, but others know for certain that it exists, and even who the perps are, so wouldn’t it be a good idea if all concerned made their information public?

  • What’s got you provincials so worked up about clear-up rates? Here, in London, the Met managed 14% (2003: I can’t immediately see anything more recent).

    By the way, I notice that often we’re being asked to compare apples and oranges: the ground subtly shifts to discussion of clear-up rate for “indictable offences”, which seems to me to be somewhat different from “reported crime” (just because there seems to be a “crime” reported doesn’t necessarily mean an “indictable offence” has been defined, surely).

    And, a further by-the-way, I’ve argued the Progressive decline in the RoI non-Catholic population previously, and been traduced for pointing to
    (a) the attitude of the Hierarchy and to
    (b) the de Valera constitution. I might also chuck in:
    (c) the denominational control of schools.
    I posit that those lifestyle factors (since they cover marriage, legal status and education) are far more profound than torching a few Orange halls.

    And, no, the worst hit minority were those of the Jewish faith: but I suppose that takes us back to the old joke …

    The recent increase in non-RC population, noted by last RoI census, is weighed heavily by the influx of have-yachts, African Methodists and “members of other faiths” (i.e. Moslems).

  • Ulster’s my Homeland

    hyberbole?, surely that can’t be hip? lol

  • lib2016

    Malcolm,

    no doubt you’ll be as cheered as I am to note that the RC percentage of the population is also in decline. 😉

    The fact is that unionists are having to accept huge changes in status, jobs etc. etc. and will face difficulty in the medium term precisely because of the injustices they supported so fervently in the past.

    Just as the power of the RC Hierarchy seems so much weaker now because of extent it reached in the past so does the weakness of Northern unionism seem weaker now because it was so powerful in the past.

  • dewi

    Malcolm – I wouldn’t ignore the mass Afghan influx. Seriously “Polski Sklep” everywhere in Dublin.

  • Cromwell

    “Mick’s treatise, I think, is that Catholics should collectively be ashamed of themselves.”

    I think youre being too severe, I dont think he implies collective guilt or shame, just that more could be done to prevent it happening & that there should be better respect & understanding of what the OO is about.
    It suits certain people to portray them as some sort of demonic organisation.

    I think its happening much too often to be random groups of kids as alluded elsewhere.

  • lib2016

    Cromwell,

    The problem may just as likely be that there is a great deal of understanding of what the OO is about. They ruled Northern Ireland for half a century after all, and they continue to court bad publicity whilst intimidating their neighbours on this island.

    Vandalism is vandalism and should be condemned but it should be recognised that the OO needs to adjust to changed times.

  • Barneyben
    ”Wasn’t your man in Newcastle actually from MI5?”

    I suspect not, bearing in mind what that “I” stands for.

    Here’s the story, in case you missed it before:

    http://www.indymedia.ie/article/84020

  • barneyben

    “…better… understanding of what the OO is about” would not necessarily be advantageous to the OO, so Mick is hardly promoting that fanciful suggestion.

    oneill,

    your link answers your question, so why did you ask it? You said earlier he was caught in the act, but what act precisely? And, of course, he was not a member of SF, so why claim otherwise? It’s a shame when the facts get in the way of a good conspiracy theory.

  • barneyben

    I do beg your pardon, let me reword my original question:

    Any news on the Ogra Sinn Fein member caught in the act in Newcastle, delivered right into the hands of the PSNI?

    your link answers your question, so why did you ask it?

    By “any news” , I didn’t mean “is he out of hospital yet” or “is he sorry that he was an idiot”, comment 17 on the link tells me all I need to know about the remorse he’s feeling, No, I was more hoping to hear if:

    1) Any action had been taken against him by the PSNI
    2)If he had been dismissed from Ogra, just like that sectarian hoolie was from Dublin.

    The link does not provide an answer to either question.

    You said earlier he was caught in the act, but what act precisely?

    Read the link.

    And, of course, he was not a member of SF, so why claim otherwise?

    I’m curious, what exactly is the relationship between big Sinn Fein and Ogra; I seem to remember disclipinary action being taken by the big boys in the past against the yoof wing at Trinity and elsewhere.

    It’s a shame when the facts get in the way of a good conspiracy theory.

    What conspiracy theory?
    I was simply hoping some Sinn Fein sorry Ogra Sinn Fein activists from the S Down area could fill me in with a few more details.

  • Outsider

    All these attacks on Orange Halls and not one conviction even with a poor clear up rate of 18% overall it should mean that 18% of attacks on Orange Halls result in convictions.

    What about the member of Sinn Fein/Ira’s youth wing who fell off one of the Orange hall roofs has he been charged with anything? I fear I already know the answer.

  • barneyben

    oneill,

    You could put those questions to the man himself -he’s contactable using the same link you posted earlier.

  • Have just done so barneyben.