The most devious of them all..?

Taoiseach Bertie Ahern. He gives with one hand.. as he takes with the other..

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  • The Dubliner

    “That said, the establishment of the Committee represents a step forward. The participation of MPs from the Six Counties will give the Committee an essential All-Ireland character.” – Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

    It is profoundly undemocratic to allow members of a foreign parliament to have an input into the affairs of a parliament where they have no democratic mandate and not accountable to the public for the consequences of their interference in foreign affairs, even where they have no voting rights. And having no voting rights recognises the inherent perversion of granting members of Her Majesty’s parliament ‘interference rights’ in the internal sovereign affairs of the Republic of Ireland, so why then proceed to pervert the democratic process while recognising its perverseness?

    PSF discovered that they had no mandate in the south in the last election, yet these fascist thus still think they can ignore the wishes of the southern electorate and engage in dirty deals with government to get their snouts into the south’s trough, anyway.

    It is also quite comical that PSF should consider Her Majesty’s MPs in the Dial as de facto fulfilment of their stated aim of Irish unity. A united Ireland is off their ‘republican’ agenda and stealthily replaced with new semantic and a tawdry mess of an arrangement that resembles “an essential All-Ireland character” is called its de facto replacement. Bobby Sands must be spinning in his grave.

  • lib2016

    Slow steady progress towards more North-South involvement accompanied by Bertie’s usual gamesmanship in the party political arena. Just what we were promised in the GFA whose demise has been recorded so often on this blog.

    Sinn Fein have been very definite that we are participating in a process rather than reaching a ‘de facto fulfilment’. Looks like they might be right.

  • An Lochlannach

    Dubliner wrote: ‘Bobby Sands must be spinning in his grave’

    I don’t know about Sands but I’d say that the founding heroes of Fine Gael & Labour, Collins & Connolly, wouldn’t savour the Partitionist antics of those two parties who opposed this arrangement tooth and nail.

    I’m not sure just what your own stance is. You begin by saying that speaking rights for Irish citizens from the North is a threat to democracy and finish by saying that it’s mere tokenism. Which is it to be?

  • Greenflag

    Not for nothing has Bertie won three elections.
    PSF have nothing to offer the Republic in temrs of practical economic policies neither for that matter do Unionists . Bertie is just going through a normal bowel movement .

    No revolution sees farther into the future or is more frightening to observers than one that does not know where it is going .

    On this basis PSF need to re examine their ‘economic ‘ wasteland policies . People in the Republic may not be overly concerned about the prospect of a UI either in 10 or 50 years time but they are very concerned about the future ‘economic ‘ policies of any party in the Republic which aspires to government .

  • lib2016

    While I agree that SF do need to complete the job of devising a realistic programme of government it also seems likely that there may be one hell of a row over health policy unless Mary Harney can surprise us all or Labour stages a most unlikely revival.

    There is a vacancy on the Social Democrat side and Sinn Fein could fill it yet. Politics abhors a vacuum.

  • Reader

    The Dubliner: It is also quite comical that PSF should consider Her Majesty’s MPs in the Dial as de facto fulfilment of their stated aim of Irish unity.
    Don’t they look back with nostalgia on a First Dail that was filled with MPs from all over Ireland?

  • Greenflag

    ‘There is a vacancy on the Social Democrat side ‘

    Is there ?

    ‘ Sinn Fein could fill it yet.’

    Sometimes in politics as in life you don’t get a second chance to make a first impresssion .

    ‘Politics abhors a vacuum.’
    Indeed and the Republic’s electorate showed the veracity of your comment by giving SF a nugatory vote .

    Policies devised in and appropriate for ‘conditions’ in NI have little relevance for the vast majority of people across the island . Toad in the hole got a kick in the same place which is why SF morale south of the border is at
    a precariously low level for their future political survival .

  • The Dubliner

    “I’m not sure just what your own stance is. You begin by saying that speaking rights for Irish citizens from the North is a threat to democracy and finish by saying that it’s mere tokenism. Which is it to be?” – An Lochlannach

    Really? I thought it was clearly stated:

    A. “It is profoundly undemocratic to allow members of a foreign parliament to have an input into the affairs of a parliament where they have no democratic mandate and not accountable to the public…”

    B. “PSF discovered that they had no mandate in the south in the last election, yet these fascist thugs still think they can ignore the wishes of the southern electorate and engage in dirty deals with government to get their snouts into the south’s trough, anyway.”

    C. “It is also quite comical that PSF should consider Her Majesty’s MPs in the Dail as de facto fulfilment of their stated aim of Irish unity.”

    “There is a vacancy on the Social Democrat side and Sinn Fein could fill it yet. Politics abhors a vacuum.” – lib2016

    Oh dear! Wasn’t it Marx who said, “Those are my principles – and it you don’t like them, I’ve got others.” By the way, that was Groucho and not Karl.

    You give your game away too easily. It’s clear you beleive in nothing expect power for the mafia you support, and will invent your principles and policies accordingly.

  • An Lochlannach

    Dubliner – you ought to change your nom de plume to Hysterical, or maybe ‘McCarthy’. I don’t support SF at all and never have done. It’s interesting that you equate support for Irish unity with fascism – which makes neo-Nazis of some very unlikely candidates, including the main Government party in the South, the SDLP and (according to every attitudinal poll ever carried out) the majority of Ireland’s population.

    I know that the South’s partitionists were cock-a-hoop after the last election, but life must be hard for you now that FF are freely and comfortably expressing their Republicanism. People like Brian Hayes look increasingly bewildered by it all. Hopefully Fine Gael will elect him leader so we can have the pleasure of rejecting his non-historical, Two Nations claptrap at the next election.

  • The Dubliner

    “Dubliner – you ought to change your nom de plume to Hysterical, or maybe ‘McCarthy’.” – An Lochlannach

    The ‘hysterical’ moniker is more apt to your textual styling. Look, I’m not the backstreet surgeon who botched your transgender operation, so there really is no need to scream at me in a demented manner that is unrelated to the actual content of my posts. By the way, how about “Robert McCarthy” as a moniker? That might serve a reminder of why murder gangs like PSF shouldn’t be treated as legitimate political parties.

    “I don’t support SF at all and never have done.”- An Lochlannach

    I didn’t say you did, so why are you refuting a point that was not in contention? Having difficulty keeping up?

    “It’s interesting that you equate support for Irish unity with fascism – which makes neo-Nazis of some very unlikely candidates, including the main Government party in the South, the SDLP and (according to every attitudinal poll ever carried out) the majority of Ireland’s population.” – An Lochlannach

    See this is what I explained to you twice already, but if it takes three times for the salient point to penetrate your bewildered noggin, then I’m happy to oblige with my customary tolerance for the afflicted.

    The only person who is equating “support for Irish unity with fascism” is you. I am equating the attempt by PSF to circumvent the democratic process by seeking to “have an input into the affairs of a parliament where they have no democratic mandate and are not accountable to the public for the consequences of their interference” with fascism because, child, that is fascism. So, since it is fascism, it is fair to call it fascism, isn’t it? Ergo, there is no need for you to become hysterical and scream at me for stating a very simple fact, is there?

    Indeed, the move has nothing to do with support for Irish unity. It indicates, rather, that “a united Ireland is off their [PSF’s] ‘republican’ agenda and stealthily replaced with new a semantic and a tawdry mess of an arrangement that resembles “an essential All-Ireland character” is called its de facto replacement.”

    The Irish government have restrained PSF’s attempt to indulge its fascist tendencies by giving them only ‘interference rights’ and not ‘voting rights.’ This is why I called the action a “dirty deal” by government and why I asked the salient question: “having no voting rights recognises the inherent perversion of granting members of Her Majesty’s parliament ‘interference rights’ in the internal sovereign affairs of the Republic of Ireland, so why then proceed to pervert the democratic process while recognising its perverseness?”

    “I know that the South’s partitionists were cock-a-hoop after the last election, but life must be hard for you now that FF are freely and comfortably expressing their Republicanism.”- An Lochlannach

    FF always was a republican party. Indeed, the only reason the unionists would even consider a united Ireland is because of the actions of FF in creating a successful economy in the south and it creating a pluralist society. PSF engaged in the systematic murder of unionists which had the direct consequence of alienating unionists from a united Ireland, setting back the course of unity by several generations and, quite possibly, permanently. Why it is obvious to the enlightened, PSF is the true partitionist party. They ensured that partition will still be there long after you and yours are deceased. As a republican, I am, of course, delighted that fascists, partitionist thugs were resoundingly rejected by the Irish voters.

    FF recognises that the ulterior aim of PSF is to ensure that its supporters are fully integrated into the United Kingdom. The leaders of PSF, in serving their master’s aims, are rewarded by serving in Her Majesty’s parliament as her loyal servants, and allowed to keep their vast criminal empire that generates revenue in the tens of millions annually intact. The dumbasses that vote for them and who killed for them got shafted, but that’s revolutionary life, eh? 😉

  • An Lochlannach

    Dubliner, on what grounds to you ascribe the speaking-rights deal solely to SF? It couldn’t possibly have happened without the support of Fianna Fáil who, in case you haven’t noticed, aren’t in the business of doing SF any favours. It there is a fascist perversion of democracy then its author is Fianna Fáil. But to say that sounds hysterical…

    It’s absurd to suggest that this arrangement was forced upon Fianna Fáil and that they succeeded in lessening the damage by denying full voting rights. SF aren’t in a position to force anything and, as the Greens discovered, it’s not easy to strong arm Fianna Fáil.

  • lib2016

    The last election saw all the smaller parties, both left and right, in the South lose seats. Sinn Fein has won in the North by moving to the centreleft and replacing the SDLP, which has since drifted ever further towards the centre right. Sinn Fein are trying to succeed in the same way south of the border.

    Hence the attacks on various threads blaming Sinn Fein for not being sufficiently stuck in the Marxist economics of the 19th Century or the even dafter attacks on them for being fascist.

    The Labour Party in the South has become a party of elderly technocrats and if Sinn Fein aren’t there then a similar leftwing nationalist party will emerge. There is a growing realisation among ordinary people that some services should be provided by the state and in the long run it is the ordinary people’s opinion which counts.

    The ordinary people of Ireland also choose republicanism as the system by which they wish to be governed. One way or another that choice will be honoured, peacefully and democratically.

  • The Dubliner

    “It’s absurd to suggest that this arrangement was forced upon Fianna Fáil and that they succeeded in lessening the damage by denying full voting rights. SF aren’t in a position to force anything and, as the Greens discovered, it’s not easy to strong arm Fianna Fáil.” – An Lochlannach

    Err, right… in case you didn’t notice, FF already have speaking and voting rights in the Dail due to having secured an electoral mandate, so they gain nothing from the arrangement. The ones who are demanding interference rights and who gain are those who failed to secure an electoral mandate from the south and now seek to circumvent the democratic process, to ignore and undermine the will of the electorate, by seeking an input into their internal sovereign affairs that the electorate self-evidently do not wish them to have.

    When Bertie tried to get a version of this through in 2005 to appease terrorists, PSF, it was overwhelmingly rejected by all of the south’s political parties, by the public, and by the media. His rationale then was that it would favour the SDLP more than PSF because it would enable that party to claim that it have influence on a 32-county basis. That was a disgraceful rationale to proffer for such a blatant attempt to undermine Irish sovereignty, to concede that members of a foreign parliament should have an input into Irish parliamentary affairs.

    Indeed, Bertie and all of the other main parties made it clear they would not countenance having PSF in a coalition government in the south even if they secured a mandate, yet Bertie now claims that having them on parliamentary committees is acceptable despite the absence of any mandate in this state whatsoever. He also claims that if FF organises in the north that it will not seek election to Westminster parliament, yet he also claims that members of the Westminster parliament should get their regal arses into the Irish parliament as a fascist right. Bertie, clearly, doesn’t mind doing dirty deals for short term expediency with no regard to the long-term implications. He shouldn’t be going along with this attempt by the north to annex the south, to paradoxically ‘end’ partition by extending it to cover the entire island, leaving the British monarchy firmly in place and to extend that grotesque little deal called the GFA to the republic. He is unsound on these matters.

    “The ordinary people of Ireland also choose republicanism as the system by which they wish to be governed. One way or another that choice will be honoured, peacefully and democratically.” – lib2016

    And that is the means by which northerners should have an input into the Irish parliament: by being directly elected to it. That can only be done by united north and south under one sovereign state and rule. That, however, is not the direction that PSF are pushing their misguided supporters in the north. PSF are a de facto integrationist party: they have used their supporters as a bargaining chip to serve the interests of the leaders. You were all sold out without even knowing it. They integrated the northern republicans into the UK in return for power for the leaders within a United Kingdom and in return for being allowed to keep the vast profits from their organised crime empire. In order to unify, you must first harmonise, so why then are PSF pushing their supporters to the far left when those they seek to harmonise with are on the right? Why are they seek to interject the monarchy into the south under the guise of “parity of esteem” when they claim to be a republican party? They are they seek to make the socialist state mandatory in the north by interjecting it in the proposed Bill of Rights when such a contrived statelet would never be accepted by you southern counterparts as the basis of an “agreed Ireland”? They are pushing you away from unity and deeper into the United Kingdom by making you into an entity that no-one in the south would vote to unite with. If you think the south wants half a million quasi-Marxists with a deluded sense of entitlement injected into its state then you are out of touch with reality. That is why PSF didn’t make one single mention of Irish unity in as the basis of their second ceasefire. Unity isn’t an issue for PSF: it is only a means to secure loyalty from those to whom unity is a profound and central issue. You’re just their bargaining chips with the British government.

  • lib2016

    The Dubliner,

    Ireland is a small country and Northern Ireland is even smaller. Most nationalists in the north have some dealings with SF even if only on a social level. They aren’t the master criminals you claim them to be – for a start they aren’t that clever.

    You are also going way over the top with your allegations about ‘half a million quasi-Marxists’ (What an interesting way to refer to a sizable number of your fellow Irishmen!) and your misguided idea that the border will suddenly disappear.

    It is fading away gradually and democratically, indeed for most residents of Newry for example, it already has. After all that’s why republicans, North and South, supported the GFA so solidly.

    As part of that process there will be new kinds of political developments like the current admission of Northern representatives to Dail committees.

    Some of those developments will fill a need and prosper while some will fail. In many cases we share the same problems and it seems right to try and devise innovative ways to tackle them together.

    What your allegations about fascism and ‘organised crime empires’ have to do with real life on the border and the petty criminals who are as rife there as they are anywhere else I don’t know.

  • An Lochlannach

    Dubliner, I’m a bit slow, as you’ve pointed out. Please explain to me how Sinn Féin could have pressurised Fianna Fáil into granting Northern representation on the Joint Committe on the Implementation of the Good Friday Agreement. Please avoid flippant put-downs about FF already having Dáil speaking rights. Slow as I am, I realise that’s not the issue.

    Might the simple explanation be that Fianna Fáil need no prompting from SF on this, that it’s part of their own All-Ireland aggenda? I lack your towering intellect and forensic insight but I’m hopeful that inviting democratically elected representatives of Irish citizens in the North won’t really threaten parliamentary democracy.