Red Hands March into Quarters

Tyrone have triumphed in Ulster, outgunning a gallant Monaghan side 1-15 to 1-13, whose ‘reward’ for defeat was a 3rd Qualifying Round Draw pitting them against a Donegal team with much still to prove to live up to pre-Championship promise. Meanwhile, Derry will face Laois in the Qualifiers after the latter fell to a 3-goal blitz from the Dubs- ABD remains my catchphrase, by the way, though the Dubs did look impressive in patches. Meanwhile, Antrim footballers will be taking the road seldom travelled to Croke Park as reward for reaching the final of the 4th-Division Tommy Murphy competition, with Conor McGourty once again the star Saffron performer.

  • Cruimh

    “west brit accents”

    phonetic fascism ? 😉

  • Cormac

    bpower, as regards the accent acquisition when travelling abroad, the same can be said of Irish Nnationalism.

    I’ve met many people who couldn’t even name the six counties when growing up in Ireland – but when they travel can often be found crying into their (first pint of) Guinness over the ‘wee six’, to the sound of some Chinese chap singing a ballad in the corner of an ‘Irish’ bar.

    “Ath Cliath abu” – cinnte!

    Cork? Sure that’s just Greater Dublin (cue abuse).

  • Cormac

    Sorry, that last post was for anonymous (great name…) not bpower.

  • RG Cuan

    The new Dublin/Belfast accents are terrible. Talk about people losing connection with their home and getting carried away!

    Some of the RTÉ/BBC/UTV newsreaders are a joke.

    Anyway, i suppose ZIZNVY doesn’t care, as long as it’s not native Tír Eoghain accents – Gaelic or the Hamely Tongue!

    Have you had some bad experience with our Red Hand friends?

  • bpower

    RG,

    Im a great believer in the phrase “The people define the state.”. The native language of 99% of Irish people is English. I dont consider Irish to be my language at all.

    I can understand you’re love for the language, and how proud you must be to use it etc. Im not denigrating it in anyway, but I dont think I owe anything to the dead who used to speak it. It’s nothing to do with me.

    If I wanted to get a deeper understanding of my culture by learning an extra language I’d learn Greek, Greek and more Greek.

  • PeaceandJustice

    Back to the GAA … still wondering when Pan-Nationalists are going to give approval for venues to be named after UDA and UVF Loyalists, as they think the GAA/INLA Kevin Lynch Park in Dungiven is acceptable.

    “Some people on here obviously think it’s fine for the GAA to name venues after members of Republican death squads. And the GAA seems quite happy with it. Would they also be happy for Loyalists to name stadiums after members of the UDA and UVF? And have pictures of them on their web sites?

    Or does the ‘Double Standards Donnelly’ rule apply?”

  • Cormac

    Ah Greek’s overrated! 🙂

    Irish is actually fairly easy – the hard part is the pronunciation but that’s drummed into us through school.

    11 irregular verbs in the whole language, 18 letters in the alphabet… a doddle! It’s the association with grey winter classrooms and the feeling of pointlessness that it engenders that turns people off.

    But don’t be surprised if you find yourself suddenly developing an interest in it later in life. A lot of the speakers I know (and try and learn from) are non-native speakers, have only been to the Gaelteacht once or twice in their youth, and speak English (and, unfortunately, Irish) with the same ‘West Brit’ accent as me!

    I know, not very ‘pure’ – ach fós, is Gaeilge é!

  • Cormac

    Ah, P&J’s back from his nap…

    And we were all getting on so well!

  • Cruimh

    Cormac – which is easier to learn – written or spoken Irish?

  • bpower

    “Back to the GAA …” you mean “Back to GAA teams are cheerleaders for IRA murder squads, jezz what a bunch of IRA cheerleaders”

    Later guys,work is finished for the day(mmmm, now thats guilt!)

    Thanks for the giggles.

  • Cormac

    Spoken if you’re the one communicating something, written if you’re in receiving mode!

    Some of those Gaelteacht accents can be tough to understand…. but then writing it can be a pain too because the spelling can be tricky.

    Right, off to the pub to talk about Flann, GAA and Birds!!

  • RG Cuan

    Ceart ar fad agat a Chormaic.

    BPower – before you get lost in the numbers game of how many people do not speak Irish, we discussed the figures on another thread just last week. Cruimh can you provide a link?

    Cruimh, like any lingo, it’s probably better if you learn both at the same time. Practise speaking as much as possible but top up with grammar etc.

    Yea, P&J, we were enjoying ourselves here…

  • RG Cuan
  • Gan Ainm Eile

    Look P&J,

    Naming a CLG/GAA ground after an INLA member is not very acceptable. Unionists who do not understand the Nationalist cause can’t fathom it. The usual ‘terrorist’ line is put forward time after time.

    However, the ground in question – and i believe it is the only one – is not only named after a Republican, but a man who died on hunger strike. His community, family and friends were devastated and his memory lives on in his home town as a man who lived by his principles and stood by his people.

    It’s a one-off, emotions run high, decisions are made that would not normally be made.

    99.9% of CLG/GAA grounds are not called after ‘IRA killers’ and the organisation actually opposed the use of Casement Park, Belfast, for a political rally last year.

    In addition – unlike the Loyalists featured on many band banners during the 12th – Kevin Lynch did not kill anybody and Republicans do not walk through neutral areas parading and celebrating him.

    The difference is clear for all to see.

  • 99.9% of CLG/GAA grounds are not called after ‘IRA killers’ and the organisation actually opposed the use of Casement Park, Belfast, for a political rally last year.

    The “political” rally still took place though didn’t it?
    Did the majority of GAA members agree with theatdecision or not? If they didn’t, why wasn’t more pressure put on the Antrim GAA- you’re a grassroots organisation after all?

    And the childrens’ tournaments I and WGM mentioned earlier (named after the Hunger Strikers and IRA volunteers), is that acceptable to the majority?

  • Rory

    Red Hands March into Quarters.

    From marching bands to marching hands. What a versatile site!

  • Gan Ainm Eile

    The children’s tournament was ridiculous. Any Gael outside pockets in West Belfast will tell you that.

    But you can’t just keep harping on about one or two events in the whole CLG/GAA calendar.

    The 99.9% fact still applies… unlike Loyalist celebrations that are attended by the Unionist community year after year.

  • patrique

    A few points.

    Many protestants play Gaelic, I suppose the most famous ones being Edward Carson, Sam Maguire and Billy Wright.

    I have been at GAA matches for 48 years and never once heard anyone singing IRA songs. It would not be tolerated.

    As I have said many times on this site, real GAA fans hate Celtic because their supporters are mostly bigots.

    And the standard has been poor. Tyrone and Kerry are favourites, on past reputation, but no one is oplaying that well. The Dubs even have a chance, but you can’t really see past Kerry.

  • allybo

    OK ,Own up-who gave that twat, BPower, a job?

  • The Third Policeman

    Derry had two great matches there, some great football played. Laois next. Hoho it’ll be tough though.

    Anyway whats all this bashing the Irish language about? You’re all missing the real problem with our national language! Again we must return to our good friend Myles na Gopaleen for wisdom in this particular field.

    “A lady lecturing recently on the Irish language drew attention to the fact that, while the average English speaker gets along with a mere 400 words, the Irish-speaking peasent uses 4000. Considering what most English speakers can acheive with their tiny fund of noises, it is a nice speculation to what extremity one would be reduced if one were locked up for a day with an Irish speaking bore and bereft of all means of commiting murder or suicide.”

    And believe me, noone in the GAA is pressurised into using Irish, my local club hasn’t a cupla focal about the place at all. Neither on signs, kit or memos.

  • bpower

    allybo, whats your problem?

  • Chris Donnelly

    Couple of points.

    Firstly, sad but not surprising that the thread has gone so far off track.

    I think Tyrone are in with a good shout at this stage, but Kerry and Dublin would be my favourites. Donegal and Derry should make the quarters, and from there the luck of the draw may be a factor in taking them to the next stage (gotta think everybody will want Sligo at that stage.) I’m also a fan of the Wee County due to many visits to my better half’s hometown in the county and will therefore be rooting for them against Cork this weekend.

    In the hurling, it was disappointing to see Antrim capitulate against Galway and suffer such a walloping loss. There remains such a gap between Antrim and the Top 9 sides in hurling, even though the Saffrons have improved to the point of being considerably better than the rest of the hurling ‘minnows’ fraternity- Dublin aside.

    On political rallies:
    The Orange Order and Independent Orange Order have both used football grounds in recent years for political rallies/ marches. Indeed, Glentoran FC recently held a minute’s silence for former UVF leader/ PUP politician, David Ervine.

    Big deal.

    On the naming of stadiums:
    I’ve posted on this one before on Slugger. Unionists wanting to take issue with the naming of a small number of GAA grounds/ clubs after individuals emanating from the nationalist/ republican political tradition better be prepared to look in the mirror.

    In this state, there is hardly a hamlet, never mind city, which doesn’t have a street/ road/ civic building/ hospital/ university/ park named after members of the British Establishment and their imperial triumphs. Even the ill-fated third city of what was once dubbed ‘Carsonia’ was named after a unionist leader (‘Craigavon’ of course.)

    And then, of course, there’s that statue at Stormont.

    Oh and, PJ, you should take some camomile tea. All that stress ain’t good for you…

  • allybo

    Tough life in the Civil Service, BPower?

  • bpower

    I wouldnt know,never worked for the state.

    Bitter piece of shit with nothing to say,allybo?

  • RG Cuan

    Come on folks, Ciarraí aren’t that hot. They’ve only really played Corcaigh so far this year, who Lú will may well beat in the next round.

    Tír Eoghain or BÁC with an outside chance for Doire and Dún na nGall…

    Third Policeman, i know many do not, but your club should have bilingual signage. It’s not that big a request. Any of your Irish-speaking members never take this up with the committee?

  • allybo

    You’ve never worked anywhere, BP, if you can spend all your time in work posting on Slugger-so much for the Protestant work ethic, eh?

  • Cruimh

    “Third Policeman, i know many do not, but your club should have bilingual signage. It’s not that big a request. Any of your Irish-speaking members never take this up with the committee?”

    Shouldn’t that be tri-lingual ? 😉
    ( Ulster Scots – shudders)

  • Cruimh

    “Unionists wanting to take issue with the naming of a small number of GAA grounds/ clubs after individuals emanating from the nationalist/ republican political tradition better be prepared to look in the mirror.”

    From the man who just blogged –

    “Banner dedicated to Ormeau Road Bookmakers killer carried at Belfast Orangefest”

    After you with the mirror Chris lad LOL

  • George

    PeaceandJustice,
    “George – See my earlier post ref the GAA/INLA Kevin Lynch Park in Dungiven:

    I see this opened last year so wasn’t aware of it. I knew there was Kevin Lynch club but not a ground.

    As we have all had this discussion before (there was a particularly short and precise one in 2005) let’s get it all out in the open.

    The GAA has over 2,500 clubs and so far we have one ground named after an INLA Hunger striker.

    I don’t know if it has been mentioned yet but there is also a camogie tournament named after the IRA’s Mairead Farrell.

    Then there is a children’s tournament in Tyrone named after two IRA people killed in the 80s.

    We had the chant by the couple of idiots at the 2005 Ulster Final in Croke Park during the minute’s silence for the London bomb victims.

    The 25 years Hunger Strike commemoration at Casement Park also usually gets a mention.

    Maybe it would be more appropriate for the GAA to name these tournaments after GAA people murdered by British Loyalists such as Seán Brown.

    Or would that be equally controversial I wonder?

  • bpower

    Lord you’re dense. For starters you didn’t single me out because you were worried I was pissing about at work. Something i said cut you deep, otherwise you would have disagreed with me in the normal way . Care to tell me exactly what it was that upset you so, but were too embarrassed to mention?

    Secondly, Im ex-catholic. I have no religion.

    Thirdly, saying “you spend too much time debating online” during an online debate makes you look like you’ve the self-awareness of a drunken 4 year old.

  • Cruimh

    George – how about all those clubs and teams named after the terrorist Pearse ? Pearse park ?

    ( lights green touch paper and retires LOL )

    Considerably more recently – Adams and senior figures Antrim GAA photographed with Children in hungerstriker “GAA style” shirts? No action taken.

    “The GAA has over 2,500 clubs and so far we have one ground named after an INLA Hunger striker. ”

    The Loyal orders have thousands of banners and so far we have one etc etc etc .

    The GAA is just as tainted with paramilitary links as are the Loyal Orders.

  • George,
    Maybe it would be more appropriate for the GAA to name these tournaments after GAA people murdered by British Loyalists such as Seán Brown.

    More appropriate than naming them after terrorists you mean?
    Yes, I think it would be a step in the right direction, don’t you?

  • Chris Donnelly

    Cruimh

    My issue with the banner story was (firstly) that it was newsworthy- which is why it headlined a Sunday newspaper.

    Secondly, it illustrates how far the Twelfth parade is from a simple all-inclusive parade (as presented by the Tourist Board; I obviously dispute that contention, as I do the idea that it should actually need to become such an event.)

    Thirdly, it points up the absurdity of seeking to parade where you know you’re not welcome. In a place where flags and emblems are the source of deep division, throwing this banner into the parade (alongwith others) is hardly likely to decrease tensions along parade routes.

  • allybo

    BP,
    don’t flatter yourself over the searing and scintillating impact of your Posts which essentially consisted of the same oul’ shite.

    Rather, I can spot a lazy fecker a mile away and you fitted the bill nicely. Now go and get a good night’s kip as you have a hard day’s blogging ahead of you tomorrow-at your employer’s expense, no doubt.

  • Cruimh

    Chris – that ONE twelfth parade – yet somehow All the GAA things don’t make the GAA non-inclusive ?

    How about non-inclusive shirts with your party leader using children for petty party propaganda with big picture in Irish News ? Hmmmmm ?

  • bpower

    Wow, that put me in me place.

    We’ve fecked this thread up enough now.
    I’ll go to bed and you go away and trawl the rest of web for anyone you suspect of being lazy.

  • George

    oneill,
    “More appropriate than naming them after terrorists you mean?
    Yes, I think it would be a step in the right direction, don’t you?”

    I do and there are but it seems nobody is interested in such people when you can bring up a hunger striker as this is guaranteed to raise the hackles.

    Just my round about way of pointing out that the GAA is community based so the community name their club rather than “head office”.

    For some the biggest thing to happen in their village is to have a hunger striker born there, for others even though a hunger striker was born in the village (Francis Hughes in Bellaghy), the brutal murder of a respected citizen such as Brown, has a greater resonance.

    Cruimh,
    speaking of looking to raise hackles I had a lot of discussions with a man called Davros about Pearse. He loved to raise the southern hackles by calling Pearse a terrorist. I take it you aren’t a fan of the Washington Redskins either.

  • Cruimh

    “I take it you aren’t a fan of the Washington Redskins either. ”

    KC Chiefs would be my mob these days George – Redskins were fabulous in the 80s 🙂

    “Just my round about way of pointing out that the GAA is community based so the community name their club rather than “head office”. ”

    so head office OO shouldn’t be blamed for what local lodges and bands do ?

    GAA and OO are similar in so many ways.

  • Sean

    cruimh is davros and a dew other people, his split personality is own personal albatross

    As for the GAA until they ask to Parade up the Shankill and a few hours later parade down the shankhill while the whole town shuts down for the priviledge, Your arguement does not hold water

  • Chris Donnelly

    Cruimh

    Redskins were only fab in the early 80’s due to the great Notre Dame Quarterback, Joe Theismann- and John Riggins. I still remember where I was when Theismann’s career came to an end following a very ugly tackle by Lawrence Taylor- a game made all the more remarkable after the ‘Skins came back to win it without their leader.

    Anyway

    What’s got you onto the Chiefs?

  • George

    Cruimh,
    I don’t get any channels with American Football these days I’m afraid.

    There are similarities between the organisations, the bigget one being that for many they are the glue that hold their communities together.

    I suppose a good way of explaining the difference between the OO and the GAA in 2007 is that there were 24 pages of GAA in the Irish Examiner, a load pages in the Irish Sun, Star etc. and no mention of politics just things like Dubs hitting harder than those Laois boys and Waterford being the losers despite not playing.

    It is an integral part of the Irish social fabric now where, as David McWilliams pointed out Real Estate Agents sponsor the local GAA club.

    I am a strong believer that the Orange Order can be a real force for good on this island going forward but, dare I say it, it really needs to become a modern organisation – It could learn a lot from the GAA.

  • Cruimh

    Chris – I spent some time in KC and have lots of happy memories.

    Theisman and Riggins were awesome.

    but back to business – the vast majority of OO and GAA folks are fine and decent people. Can we move on from each side focusing on the worst of the other and ignoring the worst of their own? That’s the challenge for the future.

  • Cruimh

    p.s – how old are you Chris ? I have you down as just a young lad in his 20s, but if you remember Theisman and Riggins you must be a bit older !

  • Chris Donnelly

    Cruimh

    A couple of years past thirty. Followed my father into supporting Theismann and Joe Montana as alumni from South Bend.

    Still in love with American sports, with all that entails for nocturnal sleeping patterns during the Baseball/ college football season….

    And I fully agree with your final sentiment too. Whatever else about the past few weeks, it is very clear to me that this society is only going in one direction, and that 2007 will be remembered as the year in which northern society began its most strident advances towards a much better future.

  • Cruimh

    Cheers Chris – Now I’m off for the evening – God Bless.

  • PeaceandJustice

    Chris Donnelly – “In this state, there is hardly a hamlet, never mind city, which doesn’t have a street/ road/ civic building/ hospital/ university/ park named after members of the British Establishment.”

    All states tend to do this. As usual, you are not comparing like for like. To repeat …

    “Some people on here obviously think it’s fine for the GAA to name venues after members of Republican death squads. And the GAA seems quite happy with it. Would they also be happy for Loyalists to name stadiums after members of the UDA and UVF? And have pictures of them on their web sites?

    Or does the ‘Double Standards Donnelly’ rule apply?”

    You Shinners do like to go on about ‘equality’. Now is your chance. How do you think the Protestant minority in Dungiven feel – Republicans making a ‘hero’ out of someone who belonged to a murder gang that targeted the Protestant community. This isn’t a parade that takes 5 minutes to pass – it’s a constant reminder to the victims of Republican violence 365 days per year.

  • patrique

    Well at least Casement is named after a British Diplomat, and a Knight of the Realm.Hyde Park Roscommon, after a protestant, likewise Parnell Park. So it doesn’t appear to be a religious thing.

    It all depends on who regards whom as a freedom fighter/terrorist. I have argued in the past that one track minded Nationalists, who see nothing wrong with naming stadiums after “national” heroes would strongly object to other sports stadiums being called “Billy Wright” Park and such. But then the country has a lot of small minded people.

    And bPower. Do not be cheating your kind, benevolent employer, who I am sure has the interests of the workers at heart.Allybo the Tebbitt fan is quite right.

  • patrique

    And just to illustrate the “national” identity of the GAA. On Saturday an Antrim Hurler was sent off for doing a Galway player who called him a “British Bastard”.

    Give us back the 26.

  • patrique

    And just for Allybo, yes it is a tough life in the Civil Service. Posting to this site during workhours results in a written warning, and about a £300 fine. Add fines for using the e-mail, or phoning home, a written warning for one day off sick, two days you could be sacked, paid three or four months late, overtime pay late by a month, yes, Allybo, you got that right. It is a tough life in the Civil Service.

    I’m going back to the sites, or being a bouncer.But that is because I like the easy life.

  • gram

    “I refer to the denizens of County Tyrone and I care not whether they are nationalist / unionist – Catholic / Protestant. They are as a group the culchiest, crassest, most boorish group of people on this island.”

    These culchies include Brian Friel and the late Benedict Kiely.

    I sense that you’ve been disappointed by a Tyrone lady or gent in the past or have not spent much time with our buckfast swilling neighbours.

    I’m always keen to know what sport those that refer to Gaelic football as “bogball” are interested in.

  • Cruimh

    I’m always irritated by the chauvinistic attitude that those disinterested in sport are somehow inferior to those with a passion for it, and that followers of one sport are somehow better than followers of another.

    Where’s the justice in some seven foot freak, too tall for anything else, being paid vast amounts of money to lob a ball too heavy for anything else through a silly ring when those gentleman of the mire, bog snorkellers, are ignored? The adulation for poseurs in silly outfits prodding balls with overly long toothpicks when the magnificent knights of the Oche, fine specimens of manhood, are treated with disdain?

    I have an unhealthy mind, so I might as well have an unhealthy body to go with it 😉

  • Chris from Brooklyn

    Hilarious thread! P&J is nearly as terrified of the GAA as the Antrim hurlers were to travel to the Bronx last year.

  • gram

    >>I’m always irritated by the chauvinistic attitude that those disinterested in sport are somehow inferior to those with a passion for it, and that followers of one sport are somehow better than followers of another.<< I'd be irritated about that phenomena if it actually existed. Obviously you are interested in sport posting on a sporting thread. What interests me is the use of the "bogball" comment without any indication of where the poster's sporting interests lie.

  • PeaceandJustice

    The silence from Nationalists/Republicans on here ref the post below says everything.

    “Some people on here obviously think it’s fine for the GAA to name venues after members of Republican death squads. And the GAA seems quite happy with it. Would they also be happy for Loyalists to name stadiums after members of the UDA and UVF? And have pictures of them on their web sites?

    Or does the ‘Double Standards Donnelly’ rule apply?

    You Shinners do like to go on about ‘equality’. Now is your chance. How do you think the Protestant minority in Dungiven feel – Republicans making a ‘hero’ out of someone who belonged to a murder gang that targeted the Protestant community. This isn’t a parade that takes 5 minutes to pass – it’s a constant reminder to the victims of Republican violence 365 days per year.”

  • Katie

    Love Ulster Finals!

  • RG Cuan

    Love them too Katie, especially when Ard Mhacha are there.

    I wonder if P&J will ever get the chance to attend one, or stop his broken record…

  • PeaceandJustice

    RG Cuan – the truth is difficult to take sometimes.

    However, the questions aren’t difficult:

    1. Would you be happy for Loyalists to name stadiums after members of the UDA and UVF? And have pictures of them on their web sites?

    2. Do you think it’s right for the Protestant minority in Dungiven to be subjected to a venue named after a Republican death squad member? Or do the Protestants in Dungiven not count when considering the rights of minorities in mixed areas?

  • Q4P&J

    1. Would you be happy for Loyalists to name stadiums after members of the UDA and UVF? And have pictures of them on their web sites?

    “Would they help advance and promote Gaelic culture?”

    2. Do you think it’s right for the Protestant minority in Dungiven to be subjected to a venue named after a Republican death squad member? Or do the Protestants in Dungiven not count when considering the rights of minorities in mixed areas?

    Have the local protestant minority in Dungiven(not from outside Dungiven) complained or protested against this venue?

    P&J – can you pick 3 things about the GAA that you do admire?

  • Turgon

    Q4P&J,
    Knowing a few members of the now very small Protestant community in Dungiven I am pretty certain they would prefer not to have the GAA ground named after a terrorist but they would not bve happy to put their head above the parapet and say so. Disbelieve me if you wish.

    The reality as everyone knows is that the OO has has problems with very small numbers having been involved in illegal, immoral terrorist activity. I am not an OO member but know many members. They would rather the organisation cleansed itself of these groups, and yes that banner is offensive. The leadership seem to be making some attempt but it seems inadequate at the moment. I suspect it is very difficult in areas where terrorists are still at least partially in control. However, the OO leadership is trying. The vast majority of orange members, supporters etc are totally opposed to loyalist (and obviously republican) terrorism. I have said this before but I challenge anyone to find anything terrorist related in the South Londonderry parades.

    As an analogy I am certain the majority of GAA members are not terrorists or their supporters. I knew a number of very enthuastic (and good) GAA players at Queen’s and the ones I was friendly with in no way supported terrorism. There remains, however, the issue of naming grounds, competitions etc. after terrorists. I have not seen some of those people in several years but have no doubt they would be embarassed by these namings (just as I am embarassed by that banner) Like with the OO I am sure it is not easy at a local level but I do think that more recognition from GAA leadership that there is a significant problem would be helpful. Some recognition from posters on this site would also be helpful.

    Peace and Justice,
    I think your answer has long since come in the deafening silence. Of course the double standards rule applies, though there are a number of honourable exceptions from the GAA supporters on this site. I don’t think you should stop pushing for an verbal rather than the deafening non verbal one from the others though.

  • Cruimh

    I suspect this thread is “ah…probably pining for the fjords.”

  • patrique

    I raised this very issue about names in a letter to “The Irish News” about 7 years ago. The problem was, in very small areas, the Bon Jovies were pulling the strings.And no-one was going to stand up to them. Now in “peaceful” times, we have a PSNI gaelic team, soccer and rugby at Croke Park, and a freer, more enlightened regime.

    And Peace and Justice, the ENTIRE population of the Republic of Ireland are GAA members and supporters, but not too many of them support Sinn Fein.

    Just as no-one is going to go to the pub in Rathcoole and decry the bad influence paramilitaries have on the estate, and just as no resident of Ballycraighy was going to go on TV and say the bonfire was opposed by 95% of the residents, well no-one was going to go into Casement Park and complain about naming grounds after “patriots”, of whatever religion.

  • patrique

    And mention of votes above reminded me where the real division lay/lies in the GAA. I can’t think of one Stadium or Club in all of Ireland named after Michael Collins.

    That fact says a lot about GAA politics.

  • stuart

    p&j

    Was it right for the Irish Football Associatiion & Glentoran Football club to subject Cliftonville football fans to a minutes silence commemorating pup/uvf/rhc leader David Ervine before a game.

    Some supporters were unhappy because they had loved ones murdered by the uvf.

    ‘Do you think it’s right for the Protestant minority in Dungiven to be subjected to a venue named after a Republican death squad member’

    I presume that you would openly call for all bands and banners associated with loyalist terrorists to be banned from all parades and for parades to be banned were the local community object.

  • Sam Maguire

    Patrique, after the 2005 Ulster Final, us Tyronies were united in the opinion that they shot the wrong Michael Collins from Cork 😉 And before anyone takes the hump, I’m only joking. Well half joking anyway.

    On the game, I thought we did as much as we had to do to win it, showed up a few weaknesses that will keep everybody from getting too exciting and looking beyond the quarter final on the 4th of August.

    On the usual debacle GAA threads generally descend into on Slugger, I’ll bite my tongue except to say, GAA clubs tend to reflect the communities from which they come and I feel I’m part of a strong club (off the field at least) and strong community, neither of which is exclusively nationalist or republican. I have yet to see a GAA club that has done anything except try to play a constructive rather than a destructive or divisive role in their locality.

  • patrique

    I thought the ref did well that day, ok maybe could have put a few more Tyrone lads to the line, but not too bad. Daft thing was, Armagh should have lost both Ulster games, and won the All Ireland semi. It’s a funny old game.

    As for GAA being a strong force in the locality, you only had to visit the likes of Lavey club to see that. The ENTIRE community socialised there, and the same goes for loads of clubs.

  • PeaceandJustice

    stuart – I see like the rest of the Nationalists/Republicans on here, you didn’t answer my questions. Whenever you do, I’ll take you seriously then. Most Unionists on here have expressed the desire to see changes ref the couple of Orange banners on parade. However, Pan-Nationalists are not willing to criticise anything to do with the GAA – even when it’s clearly wrong. Where is the hand of peace?

    To repeat …

    1. Would you be happy for Loyalists to name stadiums after members of the UDA and UVF? And have pictures of them on their web sites?

    2. Do you think it’s right for the Protestant minority in Dungiven to be subjected to a venue named after a Republican death squad member? Or do the Protestants in Dungiven not count when considering the rights of minorities in mixed areas?

  • john

    PeaceandJustice

    i can only speak for myself. my answers to your questions would be

    1. Obviously not! Not sure what your point is?

    2. Not if they object to it. They could always join the local GAA club and change its name (GAA clubs don’t prohibit protestants from joining), or maybe they should just ask for the name to be changed?

    Also, do the GAA clubs still organise Ceili nights. My mother used to go to the local club for the dancing, but obviously I wouldn’t go when I was a youngster. I must have reached ‘that age’ as I’d quite like to go now. I remember them as being a good laugh.

  • PeaceandJustice

    john – the point is that the GAA have a venue named after INLA death squad member Kevin Lynch in Dungiven. http://www.kevinlynchs.com/
    They even have his picture on their web site.

    Of course the Unionist minority in Dungiven object to it – but most of them have had to keep their heads down over the years due to Republican intimidation and murder.

    Republicans constantly use Slugger to try and put down everything Orange and Unionist – making allegations about links with Loyalist groups etc. Yet, their silence regarding my questions shows they are not ready to reach out the hand of peace.

  • patrique

    P and J, I personally object to clubs named after “patriots”, but these things happen. We even have the New England Patriots in American football, named after terrorists who organised the Boston Tea Party and The American rebellion.

    And unfortunately democracy often means that the 49% who object, are ignored. That is the natuire of the beast. And those in Belfast who object to the “Windsor” in Windsor Park, well, they just have to put up with it.

  • Cruimh

    “And those in Belfast who object to the “Windsor” in Windsor Park, well, they just have to put up with it. ”

    Patrique – the Windsor in Windsor Park does not refer to the Royal Family.

  • Sam Maguire

    P&J asks:

    “1. Would you be happy for Loyalists to name stadiums after members of the UDA and UVF? And have pictures of them on their web sites?

    2. Do you think it’s right for the Protestant minority in Dungiven to be subjected to a venue named after a Republican death squad member? Or do the Protestants in Dungiven not count when considering the rights of minorities in mixed areas? ”

    From what I can ascertain you’re referring to Kevin Lynch’s HC in both questions and I’ll assume so unless I’m told otherwise.

    I can distinguish between Kevin Lynch Dungiven Hurler and Kevin Lynch Hunger Striker just as I can separate David Ervine Politician and Glens supporter and David Ervine UVF man. Would I be happy if the Glens renamed the Oval after David Ervine? Truthfully I wouldn’t care if he played a large part in the club in an administrative or playing capacity.

    I can understand why you as a unionist will take offense to the use of Kevin Lynch’s name, but the man played a very active role within the club prior to his incarceration and death and it is up to each club to honour their own as the members of the club see fit.

    Regarding number 2, it’s a very loaded question. Subjected would imply that it interferes with day to day life and causes untold suffering. I’m quite familiar with Dungiven and to be honest I couldn’t even tell you where exactly the pitch is. If I’m not mistaken however there is also a housing estate called Kevin Lynch Park – is there a massive difference in the grand scheme of things? And lets be fair, Dungiven is far from a “mixed area” as you put it. It would be like 2 or 3 catholics in Burnfoot objecting to and trying to stop an Orange March.

  • PeaceandJustice

    Sam Maguire – What about a Billy Wright stadium? Can you imagine the reaction of the Shinners on here?!

    Sam Maguire – “Subjected would imply that it interferes with day to day life and causes untold suffering … If I’m not mistaken however there is also a housing estate called Kevin Lynch Park – is there a massive difference in the grand scheme of things?”

    Well, if you were a member of family that was subjected to Republican violence, I’m sure you wouldn’t like it. And there is the psychological impact to the whole Unionist community as well as to the individuals concerned. As you say, there is also a housing estate named after this death squad member. A great way to keep Unionists out of the area.

    Sam Maguire – “Dungiven is far from a ‘mixed area’ as you put it.”

    So if some Unionists live in an area and are the minority, it’s not a mixed area and their feelings don’t count?! But if it was the other way around, ‘Double Standards Donnelly’ on here would be demanding the removal of all UDA/UVF connections.

    It really seems that most of the Nationalists and Republicans on here still have a conflict mindset. They are right and everyone else is wrong.

    Blessed are the peacemakers …

  • Sam Maguire

    P&J
    “What about a Billy Wright stadium? Can you imagine the reaction of the Shinners on here?!”

    Simply put, what sporting / cultural connections had Billy Wright?

    P&J
    “Well, if you were a member of family that was subjected to Republican violence, I’m sure you wouldn’t like it. And there is the psychological impact to the whole Unionist community as well as to the individuals concerned. As you say, there is also a housing estate named after this death squad member. A great way to keep Unionists out of the area.”

    “So if some Unionists live in an area and are the minority, it’s not a mixed area and their feelings don’t count?! But if it was the other way around, ‘Double Standards Donnelly’ on here would be demanding the removal of all UDA/UVF connections.

    It really seems that most of the Nationalists and Republicans on here still have a conflict mindset. They are right and everyone else is wrong. ”

    All the above statements can do is start about serious case of whattaboutery, or is that what you’re looking for? Like you said there is still a conflict mindset, but are you seriously trying to tell me that it exclusively belongs to Republicans and Nationalists? It will take at least a generation before it starts to genuinely disappear and all double standards are gone from society. Everyone has their prejudices, whether they care to admit them or not and it will take time to normalize this most dysfunctional place.

  • PeaceandJustice

    Sam Maguire – you seem to be trying your best to avoid answering the questions directly – people might think you are a politician!

    Sam Maguire – “Simply put, what sporting / cultural connections had Billy Wright?”
    Let me try again … Let’s say he was involved with his local sports club from an early age. Would it be OK to then call a sports stadium after him and put his picture on their web site? Republicans/the GAA have done the equivalent in Dungiven.

    Sam Maguire – “All the above statements can do is start about serious case of whattaboutery, or is that what you’re looking for?”

    Unionists have had to put up with constant attacks on this site relating to their Ulster-British culture. I have given Nationalists/Republicans a chance on here to show they are fair and genuine about peace. Instead, the message to Unionists is that when Roman Catholics are the majority in an area, your culture and way of life will not be respected. Yet, if a few Roman Catholics move into a Unionist area, then it’s classed as ‘mixed’ and the Shinners complain about their human rights.

  • Diluted Orange

    Seemingly Kevin Lynch’s qualities that he held so dear were ‘courage and loyalty’
    http://www.gaelsport.com/html/club/getStaticNew.jsp?c=1965&pageID=27018&opt=History

    [i]Kevin Lynch

    Kevin Lynch died on Died August 1st. 1981, after 71 Days on Hunger Strike.

    The new club motto
    “Misneach is Dilseacht”
    meaning
    “Courage and Loyalty”
    reflects the qualities that he held so dear.

    Kevin Lynch epitomises the spirit that embodies the great Hurling tradition in Dungiven.

    Subsequent to his tragic death during the Hunger Strikes in 1981, it was fitting that the then name of the club – “St. Patrick’s” was changed to “Kevin Lynch’s” in his honour.

    Kevin went to St. Canice’s primary school and then on to St. Patrick’s intermediate, both in Dungiven. Although not academically minded – always looking forward to taking his place in the family building business – he was well-liked by his teachers, respected for his sporting prowess and for his well-meant sense of humour. “Whatever devilment was going on in the school, you could lay your bottom dollar Kevin was behind it,” remembers his former schoolteacher, recalling that he took great delight in getting one of his classmates, his cousin Hugh (‘the biggest boy in the class – six foot one’) “into trouble”.

    But it was all in fun – Kevin was no troublemaker, and whenever reprimanded at school, like any other lively lad, would never bear a grudge. Above all, Kevin was an outdoor person who loved to go fishing for sticklebacks in the river near his home, or off with a bunch of friends playing Gaelic.

    His great passion was Gaelic games playing Gaelic football from very early on, and then taking up hurling when he was at St. Patrick’s.

    He excelled at both. Playing right halfback for St. Patrick’s hurling club, which was representing County Derry, at the inaugural Feile na nGael held in Thurles, County Tipperary, in 1971, Kevin’s performance – coming only ten days after an appendix operation – was considered a key factor in the team’s victory in the four-match competition played over two days.

    The following season Kevin was appointed captain of both St. Patrick’s hurling team and the County Derry under-16 team which went on in that season to beat Armagh in the All Ireland under-16 final at Croke Park in Dublin. Later on, while working in England, he was a reserve for the Dungiven senior football team in the 1976 County Derry final. Kevin’s team, St. Canice’s, was beaten 0-9 to 0-3 by Sarsfields of Ballerin, and he is described in the match programme as “a strong player and a useful hurler”. [/i]

    Says it all really.

    Now if you don’t mind I’m away to play football for my local team, we’re called ‘The Shankhill Butchers’. Hope that this doesn’t offend any Nationalists on this website, after all our club is very inclusive and Catholics can join at any time – we’re in no way sectarian.

  • Sam Maguire

    P&J

    “Sam Maguire – you seem to be trying your best to avoid answering the questions directly – people might think you are a politician!

    Sam Maguire – “Simply put, what sporting / cultural connections had Billy Wright?”
    Let me try again … Let’s say he was involved with his local sports club from an early age. Would it be OK to then call a sports stadium after him and put his picture on their web site? Republicans/the GAA have done the equivalent in Dungiven.”

    Sam Maguire – “All the above statements can do is start about serious case of whattaboutery, or is that what you’re looking for?”

    Unionists have had to put up with constant attacks on this site relating to their Ulster-British culture. I have given Nationalists/Republicans a chance on here to show they are fair and genuine about peace. Instead, the message to Unionists is that when Roman Catholics are the majority in an area, your culture and way of life will not be respected. Yet, if a few Roman Catholics move into a Unionist area, then it’s classed as ‘mixed’ and the Shinners complain about their human rights.”

    First off, I’m certainly not a politician. But hypothetical questions, whattaboutery, all you seem to be interested in doing is goading Nationalists and Republicans into conforming to a stereotypical typecast of ‘themmuns’. For example, why invoke Billy Wright as the first name that pops into your head for a stadium if not to elict an hysterical reaction or to go to the lowest common denominator reaction of “my side wasn’t as bad as your side”.

    Let’s be fair about this, as far as this site goes no-one or nothing seems to be sacred and no-one adverse to kicking the culture of the other side in a cheap attempt to score points. It’s been done before with the GAA, the orange order, Ulster Scots, the Irish language.

    Just look at the evolution of this thread. That says it all.

    Snippets of Diluted Orange.

    “Seemingly Kevin Lynch’s qualities that he held so dear were ‘courage and loyalty’

    Now if you don’t mind I’m away to play football for my local team, we’re called ‘The Shankhill Butchers’. Hope that this doesn’t offend any Nationalists on this website, after all our club is very inclusive and Catholics can join at any time – we’re in no way sectarian.”

    Whilst you disagree with how Kevin Lynch is characterised, not everybody does and that is something that will never be reconciled between Republicans and Unionists, no matter how much time passes. And on a sidenote, I’d have thought 11 at night was a bit late to be playing football but I desgress slightly.

  • patrique

    I am well aware that the Windsor in the park does not relate to the English sounding name adopted by the German British monarchs in 1914.

    So how about West Ham? The Boleyn Ground? Do Cromwell fans and all other true republicans object?
    Lords? What about ladies or commoners? Do they object?

    The Spion Kop at Windsor and Anfield. Do all Boers object. You see how silly this gets.

    And P and J. In the last Westminster election Labour got 36% of the vote. So in every hundred voters, 36 voted labour, 64 didn’t. Please try and tell me what these 64 people, or 64% of voters should do?

    I know the answer, that’s democracy in action.

    You accuse the Nationalists and the republicans on this site of having double standards, and you have a good point. Unfortunately you have the same double standards. Should ALL marches in East Belfast be cancelled because the Short Strand objects. All city centre parades be banned because two people in Divis Flats object?

    Now if you carry that to its logical conclusion, NOTHING would happen ever, unless everybody agreed. And that is not going to happen.The minority will always be ignored, as many GAA fans will attest.

    The real trouble arises when a small minority tries to oppose its will on a large majority. Examples of this are Orange marches in the like of Dungiven, Dunloy or Bellaghy. Or if Dungiven GAA tried to change their name to Johnny Adair Athletics.

  • PeaceandJustice

    patrique –
    The point is that Pan-Nationalists on this site object to everything Ulster-British no matter where it is. They try and point the finger at groups such as the Orange Order. Unionists on here have already said that the Orange Order is working towards change ref banners etc. However, Pan-Nationalists haven’t even come to terms with the fact that they have a problem.

    Sam Maguire –
    A long winded non-reply again. You obviously have a problem giving straight answers.

    1. Would you be happy for Loyalists to name stadiums after members of the UDA/UVF/LVF? And have pictures of them on their web sites? e.g. The Shankill Butchers Park, The Billy Wright Stadium.

    2. Should the rights of the minority Protestant community in Dungiven be taken into account in any local decision making?

  • new era

    In reality it is time for this sporting dinosaur to either sort its house out or be proscribed. We are supposed to be entering a new era in N Ireland, and this sectarian partisan organisation has no place in a modern society. What particulary galls me is that they use my taxes to fund their sick organisation.

  • Sam Maguire

    1. Would you be happy for Loyalists to name stadiums after members of the UDA/UVF/LVF? And have pictures of them on their web sites? e.g. The Shankill Butchers Park, The Billy Wright Stadium.

    More power to them if they want to go down that road. I doubt I’ll ever play in either unless they’re gaelic pitches in Tyrone so I’ll not go out of my way to be offended.

    2. Should the rights of the minority Protestant community in Dungiven be taken into account in any local decision making?

    Isn’t that what Messrs McClarty MLA, Robinson MLA, Campbell MP MLA and Cllr Douglas are for?

  • patrique

    P and J, some contributers here may well suffer from that awful syndrome “The shoe is on the other foot now” and attempt to persecute unionists, and attack everything connected to that, but the GAA, as pointed out years ago, are no longer afraid of “the boys” in the North, and have reformed.

    As for New Era attacking the PSNI and such for being sectarian and partisan, I am shocked. As Lord Denning once said “this would be an appalling vista….”

  • patrique

    as pointed out years ago, are no longer afraid of “the boys” in the North, and have reformed.

    Should have read, as pointed out many posts ago, because they have only had real reform since they were no longer afraid.

  • PeaceandJustice

    This thread has proved that Pan-Nationalists are not interested in real equality. The rights of Unionists don’t matter to them … yet they keep going on about their own human rights.

    Blessed are the peacemakers …

  • jpeters (non GAA fan & non pan nationalist)

    i commented on this thread some days ago and im surprised that it is still rumbling on, i think some of the unionists on it may have lost the plot slightly and seem to be going out of their way to be offended by the GAA.

    Equality? what does this have to do with equality even with deficiencies of the GAA what practical affect does it have on the lives of the unionist community? Zero after all football grounds and club houses are fairly innocuous things, they dont stand in elections or issue political messages or encourage members to violence nothing that happens in the clubs or the opinions of those who attend can have the slightest effect on unionists except disturbed sleep on a sunday