Sammy in a frenzy over Taigs teaching the Troubles

It would appear the introduction of ‘The Troubles’ within the Key stage three school curriculum has upset Assembly Education Committee Chair, DUP MP Sammy Wilson. The one-time teacher and Assistant Chief Examiner for A-Level Economics is concerned that catholic teachers (or as he puts it, “those involved in the maintained sector”) will bring their politics with them.
The cheek (pun intended) of this man seems to know no bounds. Quite why catholic teachers should particularly give Sammy cause for concern remains a mystery that perhaps he could clarify for those of us involved in education.

  • realist

    Sammy may well be right here, Catholic (Maintained Sector) teachers are likely to bring the truth to the subject whereas the Protestant Teahers are likely to airbrush history to their selective churches indoctrinations.

    Those same “teachers” within Protestant (state funded) schools are the same people that try to have you believe that the state was formed on Democratic principles – like one Protestant 1000 votes.

    No doubt Sammy would love to explain to all how the country came to be divided against the will of the people, you know the 89% who voted for Home Rule and what it was exactly that gave the other 11% the Democratic right to form, at the barrell of a gun, a sectarian based 6 county state. I for one would love to hear Sammy’s version of history concerning this.

  • Trow is a doh.

    Is this one and the same sammy ‘bare arse’ wilson?

    He was a teacher?

  • Cruimh

    Sammy could be on a sticky wicket if his boss thinks he’s having a dig at Free Presbyterian Schools, eh Chris ?

  • Chris Donnelly

    v good Cruimh.

  • Cruimh

    Sauce for the goose and all that Chris 😉

    http://recipes.epicurean.com/recipe/12951

  • observer

    maybe because a majority of catholics support an organisation that spent the best bit of the last 40 years trying to murder as many prods as it could?

  • flaminglip1

    I did A-level Irish History this year (1900-1925) The first year, the Northern Ireland Government came up, people assumed next year it would be the turn of the formation Free State, it didn’t come up. Neither have come up since. The Free State is on the course but some state schools don’t teach it because of teachers who think it doesn’t count.

  • Harry Briscoe

    Chris: You are from an area that specialised in the sectarian assassination of Protestants. Unless you will join Willie Frazer’s Dublin march, you should stfu on this. IMHO of course.

  • bemused

    WHAT?!
    Unless he goes to a march, he’s wrong and his opinion is invalid?

  • Sean

    harry

    that shit is why you ended up with the IRA.

  • Bob From Boston

    The undefeated IRA…;-)

  • McGrath

    Like Ali G asked “is you ear on oliday?” [sic]

  • Sunningdale

    The exact quote is “Mr Wilson, chairman of the Assembly’s education committee, urged Northern Ireland’s teachers, particularly those employed in the maintained sector, to resist discussing their own opinions when teaching The Troubles.”

    I would not subscribe to Sammy’s views re education – particularly as regards the integrated sector.

    I would be more ambivalent regarding the maintained sector because as a product of it I found the lack of contact with protestants (and in my school the lack of girls!!) did not result in a very balanced education. Nor frequently was the political history taught at the time even remotely balanced (although friends in the state sector had the same experience from the other perspective).

    In more recent years the attempt to provide all children with a more balanced history curriculum is to be applauded and the history of the troubles is a subject which I am pleased will be taught to my children as it important to develop an understanding of events (and perceptions of them) in order to understand one anothers point of view.

    While this thread will no doubt descend into the mutual loathing and recrimination which has been sadly too evident in recent days on Slugger, at least if we had all had a balanced education on the troubles, (you know little facts such as the horrors committed in the name of both Mother Ireland and the Union, and that bigotry and ignorance in both communities underlies much of our current attitudes) we might start to find some common ground.

  • Gerry Lvs Castro

    ‘The undefeated IRA…;-)’

    Yep Bob, that’s why they jacked it in without acheiving a single objective. Maybe they just got tired eh?

  • I am sorry to see that this most important matter has not received the care and attention it deserves, especially from my namesake, Trow is a doh.

    Teaching The Troubles properly is such a minefield that little wonder most posters choose to engage in their favorite, irrelevant subject instead.

    Setting the topic in a context where there is what Professor Bernard Bailyn called “critical control” is most difficult – where considering the past does not overemphasize the grievances, needs, and expectations of one side too much, creating a kind of presentism which indoctrinates
    students for how to deal with the future.

    It is this constant, political difficulty – which is almost always present – which must be surmounted, not the danger of the teacher sometime volunteering their own specific opinions about some particular matter.

  • willis

    Here are some sample pages from the textbook in question.

    http://www.colourpoint.co.uk/pdfs/TroubledImagesColourpoint.pdf

  • Gerry Lvs Castro

    In fairness Trow, Irish history teaching has been a major problem for generations. I was educated in a prod school in the 70s and I left school with a good knowledge of NI as an entity — Carson, Craig etc. I couldn’t however name a single one of the 26 counties and was completely unaware of the nationalist position. I suspect a mirror image applied to RC kids at the time (we had one RC kid in our form of 150 — he was referred to as ‘M60’.)

    The blindingly obvious lesson from this experience is that seperate schooling breeds division, no matter how much the curriculum is doctored.

    Faith / one denomination schools may in some cases produce better academic results but they also produce an assembly line of ill-informed little bigots.

  • Isn’t creationism taught in Free P. Schools? If teachers are to be prohibited from taking their politics into the classroom, then so too should they be restricted from taking their religious claptrap into the same classrooms.

  • Gerry Lvs Castro

    Good point OC — Roman Catholic schools should be done away with immediately.

  • Reader

    OC: Isn’t creationism taught in Free P. Schools? If teachers are to be prohibited from taking their politics into the classroom, then so too should they be restricted from taking their religious claptrap into the same classrooms.
    The difference is that the state isn’t paying for the Free P schools. Do you have a clear personal position on how much Denominational Religious Instruction there should be in state funded education, and how much multi-denomination and multi-faith Religious Education? Or would you want ‘themmuns’ and ‘usuns’ written into the rules?

  • Cruimh

    “Good point OC—Roman Catholic schools should be done away with immediately. ”

    not forgetting Brian Feeney’s sectarian niche in the University system.

  • willowfield

    Cruimh – could you explain that comment?

  • qubol

    I think Cruimh is refering to St Mary’s.

  • Cruimh

    St Mary’s College on The Falls Road – part of QUB if you please.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Mary's_University_College_(Belfast)

  • willowfield

    Thanks.

    Yes, imagine having Roman Catholic teachers trained alongside … Protestants! Never! Never! Never!

    What’s the Feeney connection?

  • Cruimh

    It’s how our Brian takes his half crown Willowfield. He teaches there, God help us all.

  • Sean

    apple crumble is a conspiracy nut the same way trow is he just accomplishes disseminating his weird ideas with a lot fewer worods

    Now serious mad does dave know you are roaming the streets off your leash? Don’t make me call the ISPCA on you

  • Cruimh

    “For the past 12 years, the British government has funded the Community Relations Council (CRC), which seeks to foster respect between the Protestant and Catholic traditions through financial support for cross-community projects.

    Some critics say, however, that different tactics are needed. Brian Feeney, a lecturer in education at St. Mary’s College, Belfast, and author of the book “Sinn Fein – a Hundred Turbulent Years,” urges a tougher approach, in which “sectarian words and acts should be outlawed here in the same way that incitement to racial hatred is outlawed in Britain.” ”

    http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0904/p07s01-woeu.html

    One could argue that keeping St Mary’s separate from Stranmillis is a “sectarian act”.

  • oberver

    he undefeated IRA…;-)
    Posted by Bob From Boston

    sorry brian, remind us who surrendered their weapons? The IRA. Who stood down their men? The IRA. Whose leaders now support the British state and its police force? The IRA.

    Whose leaders are now administering British rule? The IRA.

    Whose troops are still armed and based in NI? The British. Which police force is made is made of RUC officers and are still armed? The PSNI

  • Gerry Lvs Castro

    Now now Observer, Bob ain’t from around these parts — he can’t be expected to be across all the facts.

  • Bob From Boston

    ‘Yep Bob, that’s why they jacked it in without acheiving a single objective. Maybe they just got tired eh?’

    The objective for more than a few hundred years has been to get the english out and have a united Ireland. So fah so good from where I’m standing….

    Btw, closing Catholic schools over here would be the end of literacy as we know it.

    BfB

  • Obscure Reference

    All children in Northern Ireland should be taught how religion is always the ally of tribalism and bigotry and how it enables violence and irrationality – the real lesson of The Troubles.

  • Gerry Lvs Castro

    ‘The objective for more than a few hundred years has been to get the english out and have a united Ireland. So fah so good from where I’m standing….’

    Presumably about 3000 miles away Bob.
    Just to update you, SF signed up to the principle of consent — that’s partition continuing until a majority vote to end it. On current demographic trends, that’s unlikely to be in the lifetime of anyone reading this board. If it does happen, it certainly won’t be because of the IRA or SF, indeed if anything they’ll have delayed it.

    Other objectives included a 32 county socialist republic with the IRA as the rightful govt of Ireland. As of a few weeks ago, 6.9% of the ROI electorate agreed with that one.

    So far so disastrous from where I’m standing.

  • Cruimh

    “a 32 county socialist republic ”

    That was downgraded to aspiration according to this :

    “It is though when Fr Reid turned to the principles that would guide Sinn Féin in any dialogue that it became evident what huge compromises Gerry Adams was prepared to make.

    Fr Reid wrote: “These principles as I understand them may be set out as follows: ”

    and

    “The aim of ‘the armed struggle’ is to establish the right of all the Irish people to decide their own political future through dialogue among themselves. The establishment of a 32 county socialist republic is not therefore the aim of this struggle.”

    http://www.nuzhound.com/articles/irish_times/arts2007/jul5_Haughey_letter__EMoloney.php

  • Bob From Boston

    “The aim of ‘the armed struggle’ is to establish the right of all the
    Irish people to decide their own political future through dialogue among
    themselves. The establishment of a 32 county socialist republic is not
    therefore the aim of this struggle.”

    Second…………..

  • Gerry Lvs Castro

    Pretty ironic stuff Cruimh — the only non-derisory electoral interest in SF is in that part of Ireland designated as a quarter of the UK.
    Therefore if SF ever get their wish of a UI, they’ll be instantly redundant.

    In fact if their sole aim is a UI and nothing else, and their sole means of achieving it is through consent, their only possible use is in attempting to persaude Unionism of the benefits of a UI. Thus far they’ve succeeding in doing the precise opposite.

  • All I can say is that this continuing slanging match about who won the war of The Troubles, where it is now, and what will develop in future, etc., is just another example of how difficult it is to teach a proper, fair history of its possibilities are.

    I am just glad I am out of the process.

  • Diluted Orange

    realist

    [i]No doubt Sammy would love to explain to all how the country came to be divided against the will of the people, you know the 89% who voted for Home Rule and what it was exactly that gave the other 11% the Democratic right to form, at the barrell of a gun, a sectarian based 6 county state.[/i]

    I think you’ll find that the guns which determined partition were those of Michael Collins and the IRA, not the UVF – who weren’t involved in the War of Independence.

    On another point, if you happen to believe that the state of Northern Ireland was set up solely down to the whims of the Unionist majority then you are a fool. The UVF threatened violence but never carried out a campaign; the IRA on the other hand a few miles down the road were involved in running battles with the British army. In short, the Brits weren’t too concerned about violence erupting in the event of them pulling out of of Ireland altogether as they’d been quite happy fueling it whilst they were there.

    The notion that they’d reneged on giving up the northern 6 counties along with the Free State is frankly laughable but none-the-less is a lie that seems to continue to receive some sort of credibility associated with it. Home Rule, for instance wasn’t shelved because Unionists had objections to it – the statute had already passed through Parliament, it was the British government at the time who had stalled on enacting the leglisation after the First World War ended – nothing to do with Unionists.

    The real reasons they wanted to retain NI were 2-fold. The Ulster Unionists took the whip of the ruling Conservative coalition at the time, the Tories weren’t going to be too keen on losing 20-odd MPs and thus relinquishing the balance of power. Also in light of the First World War, Europe was still on edge and as such it would have been advantageous for the Brits to keep some of their crucial ports and the largest shipyard at their disposal at the time in Belfast. In essence the rest of Ireland was dispensable as far as the Brits were concerned at the time or else they never have agreed for it become the Free State. The retention of NI turned out to be a good move for Britain in WWII as Derry was used as their main port during the Battle of the Atlantic and the H&W shipyard was used to great effect in the war effort.

    The UK kept NI because it was convenient to them, nothing more – nothing less, and now when we’ve become nothing more than a drain on their resources we’re surplus to requirements.

    Bob from Boston

    [i]The undefeated IRA…;-)[/i]

    I know that this is the myth that’s been fed to you by Gerry and pals to make your failed investment in NORAID over the years seem a little more palatable but maybe you should wake up. It’s ironic how you and your ilk saw nothing wrong with part-sponsoring the slaughter of thousands of innocents in Northern Ireland over the past 40 years and yet now lead a global crusade against terrorism with utmost zeal but without displaying even so much as an ounce of cheek nor degree of shame being displayed.

  • Sunningdale

    Trow, I wonder if it would be worth asking those of ‘strong opinions’ to provide a balanced analysis of a few sacred cows. For example:

    1. Was Cromwell’s sack of Drogheda a piece of vindicive anti-irishness or simply the standard reaction that any typical 17th century army had when taking a city which had refused to surrender without a fight?

    2. Was the abandonment of Home Rule the result of a glorious blood sacrifice on the fields of the Somme or primarily because Lloyd George’s coalition government had become dominated by Conservatives who were opposed in principle to home rule?

    3. Were the bulk of forces who put down the 1798 rebellion/rising (a) Irish or (b) English?

    4. Was pre-norman Ireland a united peaceful land of saints and scholars or a technologically backward clannish poverty riven backwater?

    5. John Laird….Why????

    Please feel free to discuss

  • Diluted Orange

    Chris Donnelly

    What’s with the use of the word ‘Taig’ in the title of the thread?

    It’s pathetic and aligns you, in terms of intellect, with the likes of 50 Cent etc, who feel that just because they’re black it’s somehow cool to use the N-word as a means by which they should express themselves. Never mind the fact that the N-word in itself is a manifestation of the systematic subjugation and oppression of 50 Cent’s forebearers – it seems that he and others feel that it’s OK to use such a loaded word in a flippant manner to call one another, without considering the previous historical connotations of the word.

    The use of ‘taig’ is also offensive. You’re effectively linking Sammy Wilson with the use of the word, as ipso-facto because he’s a Prod he will automatically use the word ‘Taig’ as part of his everyday vocabulary because that’s just what us evil Prods do. Man, I just can’t get through the day without hating some Catholics. Now, if you excuse me it’s the Saturday before the 12th, so tonight I’ll don my sash and march down the street with my pitch fork to see what ‘Taig’ I can burn out because I’m a ‘Hun’ and that’s what we do don’t you know?

  • I believe that your questions, Sunningdale, are a good sample of what a teacher of The Troubles might be questioned about, though, I believe that the only one – about WWI, and the failure of Home Rule – should have any bearing on the current situation, and then only just slightly.

    As you may know, I wrote a biography of Oxford Vinerian Professor of Law, and the most committed Unionist, A. V. Dicey, claiming that he was instrumental in the defeat of any Home Rule: first claiming most falsely that Charles Stewart Parnell was a member of Clan na Gael, and a supporter of the Invincibles; then much later organizing a possible civil war just before WWI if Home Rule received the Royal Assent; and then using the belated Easter Uprising as an excuse against making any accommodation of Irish demands for self-governance.

    The guy, IMHO, was the biggest source of The Troubles, and if I were teaching a course about it, I would expend more time than other teachers, I am sure, dealing with this crazy double-dealer in the media and behind the scenes.

    It just illustrates the almost unending problems of teaching such a course properly.

    But thanks for asking.

  • Bob from Boston

    Diluted Orange..

    You and your ilk have no real idea of the way we Irish Americans support our interests back home. As for being crusaders, you bet your cowardly Yurpeen ass I support killing every last one of those who have it in their head to kill me… You are a condescending, grammatically correct, asshole, nothing more, nothing less. Noraid? they went out with the pyramids….yeesh Take a trip out of the neighborhood every once in a while…

  • Cruimh

    BFB – Hw do you feel about SF support from and for anti-american groups?

  • Bob from Boston, aka OFD, you are a disgrace by any standard, and should simply get lost.

    And if you had ever been in my classroom, I am sure that I would have had to call the campus police to reject you before it was all over.

  • George

    Diluted Orange,

    The use of ‘taig’ is also offensive. You’re effectively linking Sammy Wilson with the use of the word, as ipso-facto because he’s a Prod he will automatically use the word ‘Taig’ as part of his everyday vocabulary because that’s just what us evil Prods do.

    Didn’t Sammy Wilson say that “Taigs aren’t ratepayers”.

  • Chris Donnelly

    “Taigs don’t pay rates.” Sammy Wilson as quoted in Irish Times 12 January 2000 (though actual remark made many years before.)

    George

    Afraid Diluted Orange missed that one.
    Have to get up earlier from now on, DO.

  • Obscure Reference

    Boston is a place where credulous idiots in the slums of South Boston used to buy commemorative AK-47s supposedly employed by the IRA to kill British soldiers, in the same way that the Medieval Church used to hawk dubious relics (Fingers of Jesus anyone? I have eleven right here!)

    Let’s hear Bob defend Americans’ assistance of the last unreconstructed Communist terrorists in Western Europe – never mind their support for other anti-American groups – while no doubt fulminating against terrorism, Socialism and goddamn-pinko lefty commies at home. He probably complains about multiculturalism while making a big deal about being an “Irish-American” too.

  • Comrade Stalin

    Bob from Boston:

    ’The objective for more than a few hundred years has been to get the english out and have a united Ireland. So fah so good from where I’m standing….’

    Bob, when are the Europeans, Chinese and Asians going to get out of the land mass presently occupied by the USA, which was taken by force by your forebears following the extermination of the people who lived there ?

    Diluted Orange:

    The UVF threatened violence but never carried out a campaign;

    Why do unionists always argue that it’s not wrong to point 10,000 guns at someone, so long as you don’t pull the trigger ? Don’t try to pretend that the UVF and the direct threat of violence embodied in the Covenant had no role in partition.

    Unionists must accept that they supported, encouraged and promoted the use of violence. They turned a blind eye to the terrorism that emanated from the communities they drew support from. This weird idea that just because they intimidated people enough to get them to back down before they had to pull the trigger makes them peace-loving democrats needs to be put to bed, quickly.

  • The Third Policeman

    I say let teachers teach the Troubles anyway they want but by law each student should have to copy out the name and age of each of the 3523 people who died. That should get the most important message through.

    Also isn’t it nice to see Sammy with some clothes on…

  • Bob From Boston

    ‘Bob, when are the Europeans, Chinese and Asians going to get out of the
    land mass presently occupied by the USA, which was taken by force by your
    forebears following the extermination of the people who lived there ?’

    Errr, my parents moved here from Louisburgh when I was two, so I guess I’ll happily miss your point.

  • Bob From Boston

    ‘Bob from Boston, aka OFD, you are a disgrace by any standard, and should
    simply get lost.’

    The truth hurts……….tough.

  • Bob From Boston

    ‘BFB – Hw do you feel about SF support from and for anti-american groups?’

    I’m not a SF supporter.

  • Cruimh

    OK – how do you feel about the other Irish republican support from and for anti-american groups?

  • Bob From Boston

    ‘OK – how do you feel about the other Irish republican support from and for
    anti-american groups?’

    I don’t link the two. Make your point.

  • Comrade Stalin

    Bob:

    Errr, my parents moved here from Louisburgh when I was two, so I guess I’ll happily miss your point.

    You’re not missing the point, you know exactly what I’m talking about, and you’re wilfully running away from an argument you’re scared to have.

    The English and Scottish people who presently live in this part of Ireland were born here. Why should they get out ?

  • Comrade Stalin

    Sorry. Should have said English and Scottish-descended people who presently live here. We’ve also got quite a large Chinese community, and recently we’re getting Eastern Europeans and various Asians, too. Variety is the spice of life.

  • Cruimh

    Thinking of this :

    “You and your ilk have no real idea of the way we Irish Americans support our interests back home. As for being crusaders, you bet your cowardly Yurpeen ass I support killing every last one of those who have it in their head to kill me… ”

    The folks here you support are at the very least sympathetic to, if not actively helping, those ‘who have ( or have had) it in their head to kill’ Americans, of Irish descent or not. Not just in the middle east, but they supported your enemies in SE Asia. After all AP/RN got in trouble for it’s editorial post-9/11 which more or less said the USA got what it deserved.

  • Bob From Boston

    ‘The English and Scottish people who presently live in this part of Ireland
    were born here. Why should they get out ?’

    Get the shit out of your ears. I never made any statement like that. I would like to see a 32 county , united Ireland, under total Irish rule, with no foreign army present. Any resident of that free country can go, or stay, their choice.

  • Cruimh

    Bob – does the US Military occupy Hawaii ?

  • Bob From Boston

    ‘The folks here you support’
    You are assuming facts not in evidence. As for your other points, America sticks its chin out for what it feels is in their best interests. It is not the first or last time someone takes a swing at it. A way of life I soundly support. Must be a shallow life in the ‘head in the sand’ part of the world. And if you think your collective noggins won’t end up on someones block down the line then enjoy your selfish little bit of history.

  • Bob From Boston

    ‘Bob – does the US Military occupy Hawaii ?’

    BWAAAAAAAAHAAAAA HEEEEEEEEEEEEE HAAAAAAAAAAAAA

    Sorry, I love yurpeen humour…..

  • Cruimh

    lots of waffle Bob – but how do you feel about Irish republican support for North Vietnam when Irish-American boys were being slaughtered ? And How do you feel about Irish Republican support for Libya when Gadaffi was an active enemy of your country ? And Irish republican support over the years for all the other anti-american crazies like Hamas,PLO and Fatah ?

    You must be either fool or a hypocrite to come out with the ” we Irish Americans support our interests back home. As for being crusaders, you bet your cowardly Yurpeen ass I support killing every last one of those who have it in their head to kill me… ” – because if you in any way support irish republicanism, you are being anti-American.

  • Comrade Stalin

    Bob:

    Get the shit out of your ears. I never made any statement like that.

    There is no need for profanity. Yes you did make a statement like that, it’s right there, earlier in the thread. You said : “The objective for more than a few hundred years has been to get the english out and have a united Ireland. So fah so good from where I’m standing…. “. Therefore, you are sympathetic to the objective of “getting the English out”, yes ?

    I would like to see a 32 county , united Ireland, under total Irish rule, with no foreign army present.

    Do you think the Irish people should have a say in the future of their country ? Why do you think the ideas of foreigners, such as yourself, have any role to play ?

    You’ve made several comments supportive of the unelected terrorist organization describing itself as the IRA. Do you think it’s acceptable for people to support and promote terrorism in other countries ?

    Sorry, I love yurpeen humour…..

    I’m impressed by the mature and considered way you are conducting yourself in this debate. You surely are a good representative of the country from which you hail.

  • ciaran

    Ah well it was nice while it lasted. The thread has degenerated into a slanging match and has gone off topic. Thank god none of you are teaching my kids about the troubles. The shankil butchers could give a more reasonable and balanced view.

  • Bob From Boston

    ‘I’m impressed by the mature and considered way you are conducting yourself
    in this debate. You surely are a good representative of the country from
    which you hail.’

    I’m not impressed or fooled one bit with your phony civility. You are wrong about me supporting terrorism and can’t show where I have. You know full well what I mean when I say english out of Ireland. And assigning your convenient motives to me is childish and transparent. If anything is profane in this forum it’s your condescending, claptrap attitude.

  • George

    Cruimh,

    Harold Wilson of the British Labour Party and one-time British Prime Minister once said:

    “We must not join with nor in any way encourage the anti-Communist crusade in Asia.”

    He also said that “a settlement in Asia is imperilled by the lunatic fringe in the American Senate who want a holy crusade against Communism.”

    As Prime Minister, he condemned the bombings of Hanoi and Haiphong while his party at its annual conference passed a resolution calling on the US to stop bombing North Vietnam.

    Of course for those wishing to make simplistic arguments this is clear evidence that if you support the British Labour Party, the current government of the UK, you are being anti-American.

    For others, this is a small snapshot of what was going on 40 years ago and gives you a desire to learn more about what was really going on rather than finding more quotes to cement a defined view you already hold.

    I’m glad you and Bob are not teaching any kind of history to children.

  • frank

    I wonder did Sammy Wilson, the one-time teacher and Assistant Chief Examiner for A-Level Economics, bring his participation in paramilitary, sectarian celebrations into the classroom ?

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/817946.stm

  • Cruimh

    George – Bob has not been supporting Harold Wilson. Please don’t lay down smoke like this.

    He has come out with patriotic hyperbole about killing his enemies – and yet he supports Irish Republicans actions in the past – who supported and still support the enemies of his country in the time frame we are discussing – what is euphemistically termed “the armed struggle”. Pele, I’ll remind you, who wrote in AP/RN that 9/11 was a result of US foreign policy.

  • Cruimh

    pele? = plus , it’s late LOL

  • Roisin

    Diluted Orange,

    [i]The use of ‘taig’ is also offensive.[/i]

    How’s that? Do you know its origins?

    They’re rhetorical questions, by the way, in case you might have missed that. Clearly you don’t.

    Taig = Teague = League of Teagues.

    Normally I charge for these lessons as Google doesn’t provide them, but I’m feeling generous today.

    As for whether or not it’s offensive today, for some it depends on who’s using it and how he or she is using it. Personally I don’t find it offensive at all, but I have the benefit of knowing its origins, and that it was a self description.

    Turning to the N-word, there are subtleties around spelling and pronunciation, and its usage by many African-Americans today. I wouldn’t presume to speak for them myself, but I understand the jist of their usage is to take ownership of the word, thereby removing the sting from it. Perhaps you could write to 50 cent and let him know just how strongly you feel about the matter, eh?

    Incidentally, the N-word (with the “er” spelling at the end) became a derogatory word in the mid-19th century. One of the benefits of having BET in your TV channel line-up is you learn all kinds of things about African-Americans you didn’t know before. Perhaps you could ask your TV provider if it’s available in your area??

    Opinions are wonderful, informed opinions even more so.

  • Diluted Orange

    Roisin

    I know it makes you feel big when you try to be condescending but alas I was aware about the Teague/Taig connection and seeing as Teague/Taig was used as a derogatory term by which to refer to the ‘natives’ all those years ago I don’t really see your point.

    Whether you believe that Taig was offensive or not in its origin is pretty irrelevant – it’s offensive in the here and now.

    [i]Personally I don’t find it offensive at all, but I have the benefit of knowing its origins, and that it was a self description.[/i]

    Despite your claim that you don’t find the word offensive I’m sure that you’d find it hurtful if someone from the Unionist community were to refer to you by it. Or perhaps you talk about about a ‘self-description’ you are acknowledging that its use isn’t repugnant to you, so long as the person using the word is a Nationalist?

    Next you’ll be telling me that the word ‘Fenian’ isn’t offensive because of its historical origins.

  • Nevin

    “my parents moved here from Louisburgh when I was two” .. Bob

    A short history of Bellybob 😉

  • CK City

    Cruimh

    How do you feel of UVF support for Gadafi at the same time?

  • Cruimh

    “How do you feel of UVF support for Gadafi at the same time?”

    UVF = Terrorist scum. But then, unlike Bob, I’m not praising loyalist terrorism – It’s Bob’s Irish-american patriotism while at the same time singing the praises of the movement that was and is so virulently anti-American – except when asking for dollars – that is being discussed.

  • Cruimh

    Achille Lauro, Leon Klinghoffer.

  • Comrade Stalin

    I’m not impressed or fooled one bit with your phony civility. You are wrong about me supporting terrorism and can’t show where I have.

    Do you really think that you can get away with describing the IRA as an “undefeated army” and then try and say that you don’t support terrorism in foreign countries ? You’re just a child, Bob. My five year old niece could produce a better argument that that.

    You know full well what I mean when I say english out of Ireland.

    Yes, I think you mean exactly what you say. A tiny number of people in Ireland share your perspective. The majority of people here want to solve our problems carefully and peacefully, with respect shown to all of the traditions who live here. Your point of view is dated and anachronistic. You are entitled to an opinion but I’d prefer that you and people liked you stayed the hell out of our affairs.

    And assigning your convenient motives to me is childish and transparent. If anything is profane in this forum it’s your condescending, claptrap attitude.

    Yadda yadda. I’ll tell you what Bob, why don’t I go onto an American discussion group and describe Al Quaeda as an undefeated army, and state that I support their objective of getting the USA out of Iraq, Afghanistan and the rest of the Middle East. How far do you think I’d get ? What kind of reaction do you think I’d have ?

  • Roisin

    Diluted Orange,

    Everyone and their granny knows about Taig/Teague, few know about the League of Teagues. Although more know now than a few years ago as I’ve been providing these free lessons for a few years. Perhaps you were a former pupil?

    [i]I’m sure that you’d find it hurtful if someone from the Unionist community were to refer to you by it.[/i]

    Not in the slightest. But since you’re sure of what I find offensive, carry on …

  • willowfield

    COMRADE STALIN

    Why do unionists always argue that it’s not wrong to point 10,000 guns at someone, so long as you don’t pull the trigger ? Don’t try to pretend that the UVF and the direct threat of violence embodied in the Covenant had no role in partition.

    Surely it depends on the context? In some circumstances, threatening violence can be justified. Unionists would argue that the UVF in 1913-14 was justified as a potential means of defending self-determination, given the imminent threat to it at that time.

  • willy

    willow,if the uvf can threaten to use violence to defend self determination then is it not ok for the ira to do the same. And surely threatening violence can only lead to the use of violence. As long as the context is ok of course.
    Who decides when the use of or the threat of violence is ok?

  • Liam

    They should just outlaw all faith schools. I see no positive contribution that they make to society and I see a lot of division that they help propagate.