Enough evidence for a Crown Court trial…

BBC reports that, there is enough evidence against a man accused of murdering Robert McCartney for a crown court trial, a Belfast magistrate has ruled.

  • parcifal

    excellent news for the man’s sisters; there was nothing political about this crime.
    Hope there’s a conviction, and a long sentence to reflect the brutal nature of the murder.

  • Dec

    Hope there’s a conviction, and a long sentence to reflect the brutal nature of the murder.

    Why bother with a trial at all, eh Parcifal?

  • parcifal

    innocent until proven guilty dec

  • While a previous message about Terrence Davison’s indictment for the murder of Robert McCartney has disappeared on the grounds of an incorrect e-mail address – what I have used for months without any problems, and indicates apparently that Belfast Gonzo’s threat to bar me from the site has taken effect despite his various backdowns since I have not been able to correct it despite repeated attempts – I just want to remind posters of the difference between this case, and that of Pat Finucane.

    In the McCartney case, his chum Brendan Devine instigated the affray in order to satisfy criminal complaints against him by the PSNI while the real killers of Finucane could not even be identified because of the various cover-ups, especially those conducted by Lord Stevens of Kirkwhelpington.

    While any these indictments in these cases will lead to verdicts of not guilty, the reasons are quite different. Devine instigated the crime, while the DPP never even indicted the real killers of Finucane.

    Just goes to show how politicized criminal justice still is in Northern Ireland.

  • Dec

    Parcifal

    Quite.

  • CTN

    Good points there Trow, but unfortunately the republican people are represented by the party who carried out this act of barbarity

  • Turgon

    Trowbridge,

    There was a cover up in McCartney’s murder as well. All the videos etc were removed and the place cleaned. Not by any British government forces though.

    Ever thought the world might be just a little more complex than the over arching narrative allows for. Guess you could just slot McCartney’s murder in there in your conspiracy theories. How about blaming the Brits? It might annoy the McCartney family but when has things like annoying grieving relatives ever stopped you.

  • Dewi

    Leave him alone Turgon – he’s an idiot and just upsets you.

  • While you three continue to engage in your usual personal attacks when I state known facts – e. g., the killing of Robert McCartney was not a calculated murder instigated by either SF or the PIRA Council, the involvement of the the PSNI’s SB in getting convicted criminal Brendan Devine to instigated the deadly affray, my interest in seeing that justice is served here rather than the railroading interest of his McCartney family survivors, etc.

    The DPP or this judge should have indicted Devine for conspiracy to murder – not Terrence Jock? Davison – but that would not have been political correct in Northern Ireland.

    With the indictment of Davison – what should only lead at worst to his conviction for manslaughter, though he apparently had gone to the hospital to mend the wounds Devine had inflicted on him when McCartney was killed out back of the pub – the loyalists assure that the whole mess is cleaned neatly at Republican expense – a far more crafty solution than what was done by Davison’s colleagues at the time back in the pub.

    And, of course, you make no mention of the DPP turning a blind eye on the whole nasty mess that the Brits – especially MI5 – carried out at the expense of Belfast solictor Pat Finucane, and others.

  • Dec

    Trow

    You appear to be getting your Davison’s mixed up.

  • I am not getting my Davisons mixed up,Dec, as this link shows, but thanks for getting me to make clear that both Terrence, the uncle, and Gerard, the nephew, are known at ‘Jock’:

    http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4155/is_20050605/ai_n14669334

    And while I’m at it, I should post this article by the BIRW about its having nothing to do with the third Stevens inquiry – the one which fixed prosecutors in a cover up by only living members of the RUC and British military considered – its wanting living members of the security services also involved prosecuted, and its calling for a full, independent inquiry into the conspiracy assassination of Finucane:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,2116963,00.html

    I would post it on the thread about no prosecutions in the case, but it has been so taken over by irrelevant considerations – especially my objections to how the death of Michael Brett on the thread Belfast Gonzo started – that I decline to do so.

  • Dec

    I am not getting my Davisons mixed up,Dec, as this link shows, but thanks for getting me to make clear that both Terrence, the uncle, and Gerard, the nephew, are known at ‘Jock’

    No, they’re not.

  • Dec

    To clarify, Terry Davison is not known as Jock, despite what that crappy article says.

  • Thanks Dec, for the clarification.

    But we both should have clarified what Gerard did – apparently stopping the affray while being stabbed by Devine, and going to the hospital – while Terence and others killed McCartney out back.

    This hardly makes any difference in what I first claimed, as Terrence can only fairly be found guilty of manslaughter.

    I e-mailed this is a previous message which somehow was not posted on this thread.

    And the administration often now refuses to acknowledge messages I send in, only generally doing so if another poster joins in.

    If this censoring behavior continues, I shall be leaving the site to suit BG’s self-serving preferences.

  • Yokel

    Threatening to leave a website? Christ, crisis….

    Talk about self importance…

  • fair_deal

    Posters are reminded that these matters are sub-judicie

  • Fair Deal,

    Thank God you said that because this thread is ver close to the edge here…

    As someone from the Short Strand area I can assure you that our friend Trowbridge is legally on very thin ice here. Only one of the Davison’s in the area is actually known as Jock. He is a very high profile figure and he is not facing any charges whatsoever in connection with this crime.

    Trowbridge is one of the guys who sits on the ‘net’ all day but has absolutely no real knowledge or acquaintances with the many, many, names that he ‘drops’ so frequently on many threads on this site.

    You could forgive him for just being a fantasist, but where it becomes very dangerous is where he dangerously implicates individuals and completely ignores sub-judicy guidelines.

    I think that Slugger Admin/Mick need to look very carefully at these comments and consider possible action because he is totally out of order here…

  • These last posts are just typical when any controversial thread is begun concerning possible republican, especially Provisional, involvement.

    No sooner is the thread started than posters like Parcifal pipes up, hoping that Davison receives a long sentence for the brutal crime, CTN says that the PIRA ordered it, Turgon adds his usual trolling, especially about me, to the discussion, etc.

    And when I state the facts – drawn from the press over a long period of time about the case -in the hope of putting the case in proper perspective, I am charged with an exaggerated sense of self-importance, threatening to breech sub-judice rules, and so much so that Slugger Admin/Mick should take some action against me!

    The Admin should not have started the thread if it didn’t want any discussion of the matter, and it certainly should have gone against Parcifal et al. before it even thought about doing something to my posts. What I did doesn’t have a chance of influencing the trial, whenever it takes place.

  • ingram

    Trow,

    It has long been accepted in Northern Ireland that these type of comments would not be sub judice due to a single judge sitting. The belief is that one person ( Judge) is liable to be influenced. That is why Northern papers have been allowed to get away for years with reporting that would not be allowed in the remainder of the UK.

    Ding Ding

  • ingram

    Trow,

    That should read NOT liable to be influenced.

    Marty

  • Jocky

    Trow, To summarise your point appears to be,

    MI-5 should be investigated/charged/are to blame because they got Devine to instigate an assault on the men who then killed McCartney and that one of the men who killed McCartney should only get mansluaghter?

    My mind is boggling with this revelation. Let’s be clear.

    How can person A starting a fight with person B lead to persons C, D and E killing person F? How does that work? You suppose that the logical result of A starting a fight with B is C, D and E killing F like they had no other choice or intention when quite clearly they did.

    In brief Devine acting on MI5 orders was to get McCartney killed so he started a fight?

    Guys that killed McCartney = not murderers
    MI5 = murderers

    If I am mis-representing your arguement please clarify but this is what it looks like you are saying to me.

  • CTN

    Throw,

    Nowhere on this thread did I state the PIRA ordered the McCartney murder.

  • CTN

    In case anyone else tries to traduce me – I have not insinuated the provos ordered the McCartney murder at any other venue either….

  • I certainly thought, CTN, that by your saying in
    message #6 that it was carried out by the party who represented the republican people that you were referring the SF and PIRA.

    And I certainly am saying what you maintain, Jocky, but without any reference to going after MI5 as I never said a word about its being involved. This is just a calculated distortion on your part to discredit what I have claimed all along

    Devine went to the bar with McCartney with the intention of starting an incident – to satisfy the PSNI about his criminal activity – which would reflect badly of the Provos, and once he had stabbed Gerard Davison sufficiently that he had to go to the hospital, the fracas continued, with Gerard’s uncle ‘Jock’ apparently helped kill McCartney out back in the end.

    If you cannot see this process developing, you have never been in a deadly bar affray.

  • Jocky

    OK, so it was PSNI and not MI5. next time I’ll proof read, no distortion intended, whethe rit was MI-5 or PSNI is kind of irrelevent.

    So the PSNI motive was to discredit SF. I’ll take that at face value.

    There is stil the flaw in the logic though, that the desired outcome of stabbing someone in the arm will result in someone else being killed.

    Even following the logic surely it is more likely that the person doing the intial stabbing is at greater risk of being killed? So why would you agree to risk your own life? That’s a huge gamble.

    And you dont seem to want those who actually killed the man to be held responsible for their actions. At no point did they have to do what they did. At what point did McCartney’s death become inevitable?

    And yes I dont tend to hang around in bars where folk getting stabbed and other being killed are a normal occurences. Maybe I’m naive. Maybe I’m just sick fed up of hearing the “had no other choice”, “it was the only option” excuse being trotted out to absolve killers of guilt.

  • CTN

    Again I re-iterate nowhere did I state in #6 it was “ordered” by the PIRA” as you stated in #18.

    The murders and accomplices were all SF members.

    It is an act negligent mismanagement of the McGuinness/Adams autocracy to have this criminal riff-raff involved in SF- some of them are reputed to have body-guarded Adams.

    A completely different point than the make believe accusation that this murder was “ordered by the PIRA”- comprende…

  • Sean

    Funny how the killing or near killing of teenage Catholics by unionists bears virtually no press coverage but the killing of man in a bar brawl garners years of press coverage

  • CTN

    Fair point Sean but I think it was the nature of the murder with so many accomplices and how evidence was destroyed that makes it such a story.

    However there is no doubt that if it had of been carried out by unionists the coverage would died of by now.

    All the more reason not to have those kind of undesirable people in your political party, I would think….

  • ciaran

    “The murders and accomplices were all SF members”
    Is that actually true?

  • CTN

    Not bein a smart alec ciaran, but yes- I am not anti republican but objective and we all must realise that this murder symbolises a reality- the McGuinness/Adams autocracy have let any scumbag into SF as long as they can deliver leaflets.

    The people charged were SF members at the time, like the people on the run were SF members.

    However it would be sub-judicial to mention their names.

    Irish republicanism will never be furthered by filth and the McGuinness/Adams autocracy are responsible for sponsoring it…

  • It strains my credulity, and I suspect most other people’s, to claim, CTN, that all persons charged with the McCartney murder, and those OTRs for similar offences are all members of SF.

    Do you really believe that the dissidents, like the RIRA and Continuity, are merely a Provo sham?

    And as I and ‘Martin Ingram’ have claimed, there is no sub-judice rule here, so you state who are they without any legal risk.

    And how Adams/McGuinness can prevent persons like the Davisons being in SF when what they did was provoked and unanticipated?

    Do they have to be able to predict the future, and take appropriate counter measures with its membership?

    Are you, in short, expecting Gods to lead the republican movement?

  • CTN

    Davidson is only one of the people present that night.

    I will not be guided on the legalitys of sub-judice or libel by bloggers.

    Recruiting dozens of scumbags is irresponsible.

    You do not have to be the Good Lord himself to do a little vetting Throw, come on now lets not get too excited here….

  • CTN

    In addition let me state in my humble opinion that I do not believe the RIRA or CIRA are linked to the provies and have never insinuated otherwise.

    The OTR’S I refer to pertain to the McCartney outrage and no other offences.

  • jim

    noone is on the run over the McCartney killing.

  • CTN

    We will agree to differ on that Jim however his family and many others would agree with me.

    This is all tittle tattle, as the main point is not whether or not people went on the run but that the McGuinness/Adams autocracy have let so many undesirables like Robert’s murderers into their party.

    SF are a declining force here in Dublin, one of the main reasons is because of its image as a riff-raff containing outfit.

    Although in fairness this image is perpetuated by more of its ex-members than current ones but as McGuinness and Adams let these people away with it for so long voters don’t care to distinguish…

  • Turgon

    CTN,

    “the McGuinness/Adams autocracy have let so many undesirables like Robert’s murderers into their party.”

    Like McGuinness and Adams.

  • jim

    ‘We will agree to differ on that Jim however his family and many others would agree with me’

    I am very aware of the case and nonone associated with the murder of Rab McCartney is on the run.

    Fact.

  • Sean

    CTN

    What about the scumbags paisley recruited or the scumbags the oo recruited or do scum bags only appear on one side of the divide

  • CTN

    Jim you misunderstand the facts the people who are charged with his murder were apprehended when on the run, if the rest are no longer on the run it is because they did indeed succeeded in destroying all of the evidence against them or intimidating the witnesses.

    Sean your point is totally valid and beyond dispute in the wider context of conflict analysis.

    I did not refer to pro-british scumbags as this is a thread about the Robert McCartney murder and their role is peripheral compared to SF’s whose members at the time were centrally involved….

  • I still don’t understand your position, CTN, and my name, fyi, is Trow.

    Your refusal to answer any questions about your cryptic insights is totally specious.

    You act as if the SF leadership is some kind of god, able to vet whoever joins it, and whoever doesn’t. Are you some kind of holdover from the collapse of communism?

    And what is your evidence for claiming that SF recruits scumbags like the Davisons to kill persons like Robert McCartney?

    You, in short, act as if it is totally omnipotent, only to complain bitterly when events prove that it is far from it.

    And I am not excited by your most contradictory claims, only completely puzzled by them.

    Moreover, your claiming that SF’s failure to attract more support in the Republic is because of the McCartney affair is pathetic. Its agenda just doesn’t attract voters in the South who couldn’t care less what goes on in Northern Ireland.

  • CTN

    Cool down Trow, you are behaving most bitterly constantly misquoting me.

    I am refusing to answer no questions- the facts are that SF recruited the people who killed Robert.

    I never even hinted that they recruited them for that specific purpose- such a claim is ludicrous.

    I also never claimed that SF’s flop in Dublin was due to the McCartney murder although it certainly wouldn’t have helped.

    There is nothing contradictory about my analysis re the of Robert murderers- some suspects are charged after going on the run, some went on the run and returned when the evidence was not substantiated although this lack of substantiation could change if more evidence emerges or witnesses come forward meaning these individuals are still not out of the woods yet.

    I do not believe for one moment that the PIRA intimidated witnesses but the ex SF members/murder accomplices did so within their own personal capacity…

    Again I reiterate the rights of these people to remain nameless until convicted and remind you whatever about the risk of sub judice- we must all be mindful of the possibility when accusing people in a public domain of defamation proceedings….

  • hib

    As the case is still open the scumbags who killed McCartney are in a legal limbo- they were on the run and could go on the run again or be arrested and charged if more decisions like the one the courts issued yesterday are announced.

    It’s not because SF were so squeaky clean that more people weren’t charged but due to the slow gathering of evidence and the nature of how that evidence is assessed by the magistrates that the status of these former or could be future “on the runs” is fluctuating.

  • CTN

    Spot on hib- the former OTR’s could be charged if the PSNI have similar evidence on them which is considered sufficient to try the latest suspect.

    SF are in trouble because the perception amongst the electorate here in Dublin is that McGuinness and Adams look presentable on TV but on the ground their party members have been involved in serious acts of corruption.

    The criminal assets bureau here stung a former leading Dublin SF member for a million and a half recently- he was allowed to accrue it and throw his weight around for a long time whilst Gerry and Martin stood idly by.

    This is just one example which is recent and topical, I could go on but I feel the point has already been made…

  • CTN

    This thread is now exhausted and as I will not be re-visiting it I therefore cannot reply to any comments on my blogs.

    Over and out.