Is the Order up for tackling the Elephant?

With just four weeks to this year’s July 12th parades, the Orange Order have signalled their intention to get tough on paedophiles and have issued a not welcome message (of sorts) to the street drinking battalions accompanying the jolly Brethren on parade.
Of course, the elephant on procession remains the overtly sectarian element, who will once again insist on parading in unwelcome confines and those who will use the occasion as an excuse to raise the flag and bunting in ‘mixed’ residential/ commercial areas.
So what prospect is there of progress on these fronts, which would do more to transform the Order’s image at a stroke than any number of ‘family-oriented’ bouncy castles and face painters at the Field? Any thoughts out there?

  • Roger

    Frank

    That link displayed a web site that was about as impartial and reasonable as sluggerotoole.

  • frank

    roger

    Was that the ‘imposter’orangeman’ or a ‘real orangeman’ 🙂 ??

    Was that a false mustache ???

    ‘I can catergorically state there are no such lodges/bands on parade in Fermanagh and I am sure others can substantiate this claim.’

    The South Fermanagh Loyalist Flute Band from Enniskillen seem to be quite fond of the present day uvf, they have a full page dedicated to uvf/rhc murals including all the usual murderers Brian Robinson etc..

    The Enniskillen Branch of the Apprentice Boys have no problems allowing the band to take part in its events.

    http://www.geocities.com/sflfb1983/sfl2003

  • Roger

    That fluteband disbanded years ago, move with the times isnt that what your always telling us?

  • frank

    ‘That fluteband disbanded years ago, move with the times isnt that what your always telling us? ‘

    Funny that, they were marching away last summer !!

    They seem to have changed their name to The ‘New’ South Fermanagh Loyalist Flute Band.

    Very original !

    They have a new dvd out called ‘onwards & upwards’, i must rush round to Virgin in the morning to buy a copy.

  • kensei

    “Are not answers to my question kensei.

    come on – tell us how you work out who “owns” what area. ”

    I told you. The Orange Order has a problem when they cant get down. It’s a tautology, but there it is.

    “Presumably you don’t have a problem with people who don’t want to have immigrants in “their” areas then kensei ?”

    No, that would be the same kind of intimidation I oppose in the OO.

  • Cruimh

    That doesn’t make sense kensei – in so many ways.

    You are arguing that because “locals” don’t want
    (orange) outsiders then the outsiders should stay away – yet you say that it’s different when locals don’t want other types of outsiders.

    And of course that it’s outsiders who organise the protests against orange walkers – people like Mac Connaith – and that many of the protesting ‘residents’ are in fact non-residents bussed in as rent-a-mob complicates matters considerably.

    And again you run from explaining how you can claim an area as ‘yours’ instead of ‘theirs’.
    You are every bit as bad as the self-righteous who object to Gay Pride marches going through “their” streets.

  • kensei

    “You are arguing that because “locals” don’t want
    (orange) outsiders then the outsiders should stay away – yet you say that it’s different when locals don’t want other types of outsiders.”

    No, I am not. Areas are red herrings. I’m interested in people. So, if there was one person who had a problem with it, in a whole area, the decent thing would be to talk to them and try to at least address their concerns. That is sadly unlikely to happen, but it does need dealt with when it reaches critical mass.

    “And of course that it’s outsiders who organise the protests against orange walkers – people like Mac Connaith – and that many of the protesting ‘residents’ are in fact non-residents bussed in as rent-a-mob complicates matters considerably.”

    Oh please. How many Orangemen were bused to Drumcree? How long did they sit out? Any political capital SF gained as a result of it was because a lot of Catholics have a big problem with the OO and a lot of the things it does. You can spin all you like, but that’s a fact.

    “And again you run from explaining how you can claim an area as ‘yours’ instead of ‘theirs’.
    You are every bit as bad as the self-righteous who object to Gay Pride marches going through “their” streets. ”

    Nope, my position is entirely consistent. I refuse to get sucked in to your ridiculously argument over “areas”. Sorry. Try someone else.

  • Cruimh

    “I refuse to get sucked in to your ridiculously argument over “areas”.”

    Erm – you CHOSE to join the discussion by answering a question I asked Billy!

    Posted by kensei on Jun 18, 2007 @ 12:51 PM

  • nmc

    I’m struck by Orangeism’s consistent response to these issues, first wash your hands of any issue (because orangemen are all angels and always have been), for example the marcher holding up his fingers wasn’t in a lodge, those bands no longer exist as of last year, those thugs weren’t in a band, they were just with the band, wearing a collarette and marching with us.

    This is then followed by misdirection, for example when does an area become specifically owned by a community, or the catholics were bussed in, (unlike the orangemen, they got the train), both of which have no real bearing on the situation.

    This is then followed by the attempts to slur such as with Kensei above, (the connotation of two of the posts suggest he is homophobic and racist despite no evidence for this) or just straightforward insults and accusations of bigotry.

    Here’s a brainwave, maybe, just maybe, you aren’t all angels. Maybe your organisation bears some responsibility for the situation which it creates, obviously the drinkers and the troublemakers that appear on the twelfth do so because of the twelfth. They live here all year round and don’t cause chaos so why does it happen at this time of the year? Perhaps it actually has something to do with the marches.

    And when people level (accurate) accusations that the order has a sizeable membership made up of criminals and paramilitaries, maybe you should start asking why the Order doesn’t apply it’s own rules. Because by not applying their own rules to their membership they are leaving themselves open to attack from all sides as being bigoted, anti-catholic and hypocritical.

  • Sue

    You mean acknowledge that many parades were cancelled in 1847 due to the famine killing so many members?

  • Cruimh

    nmc- straw men galore. My discussion with kensei has been polite and I have not suggested that he is either homophobic or racist.

  • nmc

    You are every bit as bad as the self-righteous who object to Gay Pride marches

    I would label these protesters as homohobes, my label your connotation.

    Presumably you don’t have a problem with people who don’t want to have immigrants in “their” areas then kensei

    People sympathetic to anti-immigrants (or racists as they would be known) would also be racist IMO, again my label your connotation.

  • Cruimh

    nmc – in neither case did I say or imply that kensei would be one of the protestors or support the protestors. I was extending the logic of his argument in respect of orangemen to other groups who have faced exclusion from areas.

  • kensei

    “Erm – you CHOSE to join the discussion by answering a question I asked Billy!”

    Yes, and I answered it in such a way to indicate I believed the premise of your question was flawed.

  • nmc

    Ok apologies, what you’re actually saying is you are every bit as bad as the homophobes. It may be a bit much to interpret every bit as bad, as being equal to, or having every negative quality associated with homophobes. The connotation is still there, that is what the words don’t say but suggest.

    Definitions of connotation on the Web:

    The atmosphere of a word-something about the word that goes beyond what the dictionary delivers. The connotations of a word may include one’s personal experiences with that word and other associations which cluster about the word.

  • Cruimh

    I disagree nmc. I strongly disagree with the actions of the racists and the homophobes and I know that kensei does – I was using them to illustrate that his support for those who try to exclude the orange men from what they consider to be their areas is flawed.

    Kensei – I don’t think it is fair to berate me for discussing something with you when you choose to enter the debate.

    Billy made a post with several mentions of areas and neighbourhoods belonging to one side or the other – I asked him to clarify.

    “Why therefore, should Catholics tolerate parades through their neighbourhoods ”

    Posted by Billy on Jun 18, 2007 @ 12:31 PM

    This claim to ownership of areas is a hugely important point – It has led to an awful lot of people being burned out or intimidated out of their homes – both Catholic and Protestant, includng the protestants who were driven out of the Garvaghey estate.