From Ikea to Limavady

SDLP Councillor Gerry Mullan is objecting to the display of a Union flag during a World War I commemoration event in Limavady. The solitary Union flag will not be flown on council property, on a temporary flag poll for approximately 30 minutes. However, this is too much for Cllr Mullan who has attacked it as a “flag-waving exercise”.

  • kensei

    “Ah Lib, so what you are saying can be summarised as thus: commemorate the war dead if you must, but only in a way that we deem accepatable and non-offensive.”

    Sure – if you are going to label it cross community. That would seem to be a prerequisite.

  • Gréagóir O’ Fráinclín

    Wrong call by Mullan. The Union flag should be flown.

    But as Hunter said….’WWI is part of my Britishness, and the Britishness of my children and grandchildren and great grandchildren whether there ever is a united Ireland and my people become stateless like the Kurds or not’.

    Please note, WW1 is not just an Ulster Unionist thing either. Overall probably more people from an Irish Nationalist background throughout Ireland fought and died in the war than the good loyal folk.

    Do you believe that the Ulster 36th Division were deliberately sent to their slaughter from English orders from above? Naive if you don’t.
    Was such loyality worth it?

    And are you having a laugh when you say this…’my people become stateless like the Kurds or not’…. FFS!

  • Fraggle

    “my people become stateless like the Kurds ”

    He didn’t have to look as far as the Kurds. How about the nationalists who ended up on the wrong side of the border after partition?

  • Ginfizz

    Lib

    Bad news – we are the British.

  • Turgon

    Greagoir,

    I do not accept this 36th sent to their massacre deliberately.

    It is the case that the military leadership genuinely believed that there would be no or few German survivors such was the severity of their bombardment. Also there were other regiments which suffered horribly on 1st July. The 36th had a particular problem because many were sent (by their own leaders) into no mans land before the shelling was over (this was against top brass orders). As such they got a bit further and so were vunerable from three sides. I think the generals made a mistake. What made it morally wrong was not to stop after the first day when they say what a disaster faced them. I think the First World War is a little (only a little) more complex than the “Lions lead by Donkeys we were all taught.

  • Reader

    Greagoir: Do you believe that the Ulster 36th Division were deliberately sent to their slaughter from English orders from above? Naive if you don’t.
    Haig was Scottish. About 20 divisions attacked on the 1st day of the Somme, which was intended to be a triumph. Do you think the 16th division was treated more, or less, favourably than the 36th, and if so, why? Was any division sent into the battle with the intention of it being decimated? Ridiculous!

  • Sean

    Not really turgon

    the masses were for the slaughter and your elites were for the tea.

    They didnt just continually sacrifice Irish or the british lower classes they did the same thing with “colonies”

    They sent the Canadiand to there slaughter by the thousands until we were smart enough to take control of our own troops and the slaughter stopped and the victories started

  • Cahal

    GinnFizz
    “Bad news – we are the British. ”

    I think he’s talking about people who are actually from errrr, Britain. Not in the Irish, Gibralter or Falklands Island sense.

    But anyhoo…..I watched Wimbledon on TV one time so I can hardly talk.

  • Liam

    I am from Limavady and I have been following this issue. When speaking with Cllr Mullan he made it clear to me that he is annoyed about the flag not because he has anything against it per se but because Limavady council has agreed a ‘no flags’ policy and here are Unionists erecting a Union Flag outside Limavady council offices. They say this is to be a cross-community event yet there is no speak of erecting a Tricolour to honour the dead Irishmen who came from the area, and yes it was a united country during WWI. Either it is cross-community and should have both flags or none or it isn’t cross-community and from the looks of it I do not think it is inclusive at all. If they really wanted to involve everyone they would not be bringing a mobile flagpole and erecting a Union Flag outside Limavady council offices in contravention of the previous agreement.

  • Harry Flashman

    Sean do you have the slightest grasp of the subject about which you are talking so much twaddle?

    The highest casualty toll in British units was among junior officers, you know the public school toffs whom you seem to believe were all sitting behind the lines eating cucumber sandwiches and drinking tea from bone china cups and with their little fingers raised just so. Furthermore almost one hundred British generals were killed in action during the First World War, a previously unheard of event.

    As for your post-Trudeau (a man who disdainfully shrugged off the notion that fighting for freedom – even for the freedom of fellow Frenchmen – was something a grown up nation should sometimes have to do) version of Canadians in WW1, it is a fact that Canadians rushed to the recruiting offices and were, like their Ulster, Scottish, Australian and New Zealand cousins chomping at the bit to get into action and were subsequently very proud of their service. They weren’t naive little lambikins cruelly tricked into their downfall by sinister waxy moustache twirling English aristos cackling maniacally as they wrung their hands in evil delight.

    Try reading some history mate, the study of the First World War has advanced a bit since you played in the chorus line at your Sixth Form production of “Oh What a Wonderful War!”

  • Sean

    Harry Flashman

    I never once said that Canadians did not rush to do what they viewed as their duty. Infact my history tells me that the Canadians did much of the heavy lifting on the front lines. From Ypres to Vimy Ridge they did us proud but they were never the less fed to the whirlwind by the supposed heroic british profesional generals and it wasnt until a Volunteer Canadian general took control and changed the way the war was fought that the Canadians fairly single handedly won one of the bigest battles namely Vimy Ridge. Though I am sure your history tells you different.

    I fully support commemoration of both world wars but they still were not planning a cross community event, If they had who would have complained?

  • Sean

    In fact if you read this article you will see where he refused to follow the butcher Haig because he would not sacrifice his troops just to follow an order

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Currie

  • Sean

    the Narrative of Canada says that on July 1, 1867 in Charlottetown Prince Edward Island Canada became a country

    And in 1917 on the blood soaked killing fields of Vimy Ridge Canada became a Nation so f*ck off with your fake history lesson

  • PeaceandJustice

    Liam – “there is no speak of erecting a Tricolour to honour the dead Irishmen who came from the area, and yes it was a united country during WWI.”

    Perhaps then they should also fly the Cross of St Patrick as well as the Union Flag. You’re being political and provocative when you say cross-community means also flying the flag of a foreign country i.e. Eire. There are no Union Flags flown at such events in Eire. You’re living in the United Kingdom my British friend.

  • darth rumsfeld

    Liam
    After reading some history to correct your misunderstanding of WWI, you really should have a word with Councillor Mullan , who just looks even more petty and stupid than the Shinners by adopting this one man crusade. Cripes, even Paddy Butcher had the wit not to run with this one.

    Firstly, it’s not a Unionist parade, as a cursory glance at the link will show. Secondly, the flag is going to go up on the open space outside the council offices and library, both of which will be closed-i.e.empty,vacant, bereft of sensitive souls who feel their gorges rising at the merest tinges of red white and blue. It’s not being flown from council property, and the pavement in front of the carpark is hardly sacred ground.

    The council has a policy on flags and emblems which is curiously onesided. They seem unconcerned by a thumping great slab of concrete on their property beside the Church of Ireland in Dungiven which commemorates IRA men 365 days a year. Curiously I can’t remember councillor Mullan issuing a statement about that……

  • Gréagóir O’ Fráinclín

    ‘Perhaps then they should also fly the Cross of St Patrick as well as the Union Flag. You’re being political and provocative when you say cross-community means also flying the flag of a foreign country i.e. Eire. There are no Union Flags flown at such events in Eire. You’re living in the United Kingdom my British friend.’

    You’re so far up your own Unionist arse when you utter such inane shite. The history of the island just didn’t begin when the Planters and your stock arrived here, nor did it just begin in 1921 and partition. Incredible, that you very much hold today the attitude of the Planters, with that arrogant superiority complex of a wannabe uppercrust Englishman ignorant of the Irish Nationalists of Ulster and the island of Ireland that surround you.

  • IJP

    Decal, Turgon

    Rubbish.

    The farcical idea that you can’t fly the Union Flag (or for that matter the Irish tricolour) alone at a cross-community event may be CRC, it may be Corrymeela, but it ain’t Alliance.

    We need to become acquainted with the other traditions in our society, not try to deny they exist.

  • dub

    p and j,

    the union jack HAS been flown at ww1 events in the republic.

    so i am afraid that you are wrong.

  • Gréagóir O’ Fráinclín

    This guys know shit all about the Irish Republic today.
    Only last year there was a major commeration to mark the battle of the Somme at the specially designed Sir Edwin Lutyens designed Memorial Gardens at Islandbridge in Dublin. A sevice held by the two main Churches and attended by many Irish and British dignatories. There were an abundance Union flags on display.

    Visit St Patrick’s Cathedral in Dublin too at any time where you can see on permanent display many a Union Flag and various battle standards of the Britsh army from the Great War and other wars of the empire.

  • Forecast
  • Sean

    Forecast

    Revisionist history is always facinating to those who like what its being revised to

  • Liam

    “Liam – “there is no speak of erecting a Tricolour to honour the dead Irishmen who came from the area, and yes it was a united country during WWI.”

    Perhaps then they should also fly the Cross of St Patrick as well as the Union Flag. You’re being political and provocative when you say cross-community means also flying the flag of a foreign country i.e. Eire. There are no Union Flags flown at such events in Eire. You’re living in the United Kingdom my British friend. ”

    The point is that I do not think any flags should be flown at all if they want to make it cross-community. I don’t really want a Tricolour any more than a Union Flag and you just picked out one sentence of my post to refute.
    As already said there are Union Flags flown in the Republic of Ireland and they could easily fly one here or fly none at all to neutralise the event but the Unionists don’t want to and the idea of this being a cross-community event is very thin indeed.
    On the point about the flag in Dungiven I think any councillor would have to think twice before trying to remove something in that town…

  • Pounder

    Interesting point made that southern memorials DO fly union flags. Yet more evidence that Southern Republicans and Northern ones are different.

  • darth rumsfeld

    Liam
    your last comment @12.37 is undoubtedly true, yet what does it say about parity of esteem as a two way street?

    Helen Quigley was the SDLP mayor in Londonderry who had the good manners to attend the cenotaph service on 11th November 2006 where there were a plethora of Union Flags from the RBL, RAF, Royal Navy Association etc etc
    President McAleese was able to stand in Islandbridge with numerous Union flags at l;ast year’s ceremonies.

    Was either event “Unionist”?
    Was either woman insulted or her nationalism diminished?

    Martina Anderson is quoted in this morning’s Derry Urinal saying she would not go to the cenotaph this year.. because of all the Brits in attendance, but she went to Messines to ..er.. outreach to themmuns. So much for all the cant about her relations in the British army!!!

  • PeaceandJustice

    Liam – “On the point about the flag in Dungiven I think any councillor would have to think twice before trying to remove something in that town…”

    So it’s OK to have a thumping great slab of concrete on their property beside the Church of Ireland in Dungiven which commemorates SF-IRA murderers 365 days a year. It wouldn’t do to say anything … because SF-IRA might get nasty? But it’s OK for the SDLP to pick on a WW I commemoration. Shameful from the SDLP.

    Gréagóir O’ Fráinclín – “The history of the island just didn’t begin when the Planters and your stock arrived here”. I hope you’re not being racist now. I thought Republicans were all for equality – yeah right – unless you happen to be Ulster British. And anyway, it depends how far you want to go back as regards the original people of Ireland. So try to curb your racism.

    dub – “the union jack HAS been flown at ww1 events in the republic.” Great to hear. Although, can anyone tell me this – if I wanted to find a Union Flag flying outdoors in Eire today, where would I need to go to find it? That is, before the SF-IRA bully boys had pulled it down.

  • Liam

    I accept that point and the flag doesn’t personally bother me in itself. It’s just the fact that it appears to go against the spirit of the no flags policy while not technically breaking it. If it was anywhere else in the town and not right in front of the council offices then no one would have a problem except for maybe some crazy RSF members.
    I am a moderate nationalist but I have been able to stand at the war memorial in Limavady and have worn a poppie in the past as a mark of respect. It’s not the issue of having a flag at all that unnerves me a bit, it’s where they want to place it.

  • Liam

    PeaceandJustice. I agree, it’s not ok for them to fly a flag outside the CofI, are you sure it is on council property? If so I will raise the issue.

  • Gréagóir O’ Fráinclín

    Gréagóir O’ Fráinclín – “The history of the island just didn’t begin when the Planters and your stock arrived here”. I hope you’re not being racist now. I thought Republicans were all for equality – yeah right – unless you happen to be Ulster British. And anyway, it depends how far you want to go back as regards the original people of Ireland. So try to curb your racism.

    Your old bleating cry of victimhood does not work with me. Your a champion of your cause and your cause alone. Bandying about the word racist is laughable. Are you denying your history and culture now?

    You also know absolutely nothing about the Irish Republic today, how could when you have never even set foot in the place. Hiding away in your Unionist ivory tower, manning the last outpost of the empire.
    You’ll find a Union Flag at any of the many international hotels in the Irish Republic (and thats if they fly flags) and of course the British embassy, and annual sporting and international events. The annual horse show at the RDS has witness many a rendition by the Irish Army (Oglaigh na Eireann) of God Save the Queen. You’ll see the British royal coat of arms adorn many a fine old building and post box in Dubilin as well as other Irish cities and towns. The republican iconoclasts did not remove them. People just accept them as a thing of a colonial past. A bit like your attitude, one could say!

  • darth rumsfeld

    P & J
    I think in fairness to liam he’s genuinely being constructive.
    But Mullan’s just being a narrowminded stirrer in the twilight of an undistinguished political career.

  • Gréagóir O’ Fráinclín

    A little piece of information for all Unionists and Eirephobes is that a portrait of William of Orange’s adorns the Lord Mayor Of Dublin’s chain of office, still to this day. It was never removed or destroyed, despite independance and is proudly worn on official and stately occassions. Again, it’s another aspect of our past and what is Irish history!

  • Cruimh

    Nelson’s column didn’t fare so well Gréagóir !

  • Gréagóir O’ Fráinclín

    True Cruimh, but ah come on not all the symbols of British governance suffered as I have mentioned. Sure just up the quays in the Phoenix Park there is a huge monument, much larger than the Pillar, standing proud to the Duke of Wellington, British war hero and PM and who of course was born in Dublin.

    (The birthplace and house of Edward Carson (another Dub) still stands on Harcourt Street in Dublin, after a recent refurbishment).

  • overhere

    P&J I think you only have to go to the British Embassy

  • Cruimh

    What about ( ! LOL )poor Queen Victoria’s statue Gréagóir ?

    Incidentally – what happened to the letter boxes ? Did you lads run around painting them green like those Ogra SF ligs in NI ? Hell, they could at least have painted them Green, white and Orange!

  • Gréagóir O’ Fráinclín

    Queen Victoria’s statue was shipped off to Australia. The Aussies glady accepted her.

    The post boxes were simply painted Green… the national colour of Ireland. Green, White and Orange would be architecturally poor taste and simply garish in a civic sense. Which is why alot of the Red, White and Blue kerbstones are getting the boot up north too.

  • Cruimh

    “Queen Victoria’s statue was shipped off to Australia.”

    exactly! Not very respectful to send the old lady out to those reprobates 😉

    “The post boxes were simply painted Green… the national colour of Ireland.”

    Hardly very inclusive mo chara!

    “Green, White and Orange would be architecturally poor taste and simply garish in a civic sense.”

    I too think the tricolour is butt ugly 😉

    “Which is why alot of the Red, White and Blue kerbstones are getting the boot up north too.”

    Not comparable. The kerbstone painting wasn’t officially ordered !

    It would have been fair enough, in one sense, if the letterboxes had been a tribal orange or even red, white and blue – but red ? Hardly as tribal as green Gréagóir.

  • Gréagóir O’ Fráinclín

    I suppose Red is accociated with being the national colour of England so a lick of Green paint did the job of distinguishing the new Free State Post & Telegraphs Services.

  • Cruimh

    Surely the national colour of England is White?
    And I could see that (true)blue might be problematic – but red ? What an insult to Connolly and Larkin!

  • dub

    Darth,

    the events you are referring to in Derry and Islandbridge were occasions where BOTH flags were flown…

    the fact now accepted on this thread that ceremonies in the south in the last few years commemorating the first world war dead HAVE started to fly the union flag as well as our national flag surely shows the way forward. there must be space in the north for occasions where only one flag is shown otherwise it would be a question of acutal suppression of cultures and if those organising this event want just one flag then really that’s entirely up to them. just silly though that they are pushing it as cross community. i remember being surprised and almost shocked then the RBL in derry decided to bring in tricolour next to union jack and other flags (canadian etc..) but when it happened it just seemed natural… no identity was being repressed… the wonderful thing there was i repeat was that was done on the initiative of the rbl itself… it was not publicly asked for as here.

  • Gréagóir O’ Fráinclín

    Ermmm yeah…. but did’nt England wear a red jersey V W. Germany in the 1966 World Cup final. Isn’t the St. George’s flag Red and White.

    Red and white are the colour I suppose(from the War of the Roses, Lancaster and York)
    But the dreaded red coats were associated with English/British soldiers in days of yore here in Erin.

  • Cruimh

    Red is also a papal colour but Ireland goes with the colour of Islam Gréagóir 🙂

  • Gréagóir O’ Fráinclín

    Ha ha ….. 🙂

  • Cruimh

    Those old kerbstones were really conciliatory – our version of the tricolour! Papal Red True Blue and white to symbolise peace between the two- but my community have always had rotten PR 😉

  • darth rumsfeld

    “the events you are referring to in Derry and Islandbridge were occasions where BOTH flags were flown… ”

    Not in Londonderry dub