Concerned Residents of Washington DC

AOH leader, Jack Meehan, has objected to the participation of the Orange Order in the Smithsonian’s 2007 Folklife Festival part of which focuses on Northern Ireland. The OO is one of 160 local groups invited to participate. However, the Irish American Unity Conference welcomed their participation as part of a balanced programme.

  • Yokel

    Well of course he would.

    These Americans just don’t understand, the question is which Americans in this article?

  • Glensman

    If they’ve been invited then what’s the problem?

  • iain

    is it not hypocritical of a AOH member to object to the OO? Are they not effectively equivalents of each other?

  • Yokel

    No Iain they are not. One’s the other side and that means they are never as pure or good…

    Glensman

    Maybe Jack is just a whinger. It wont get him anywhere.

  • Glensman

    I’m no fan of the OO, but they marched in Galway City last St. Patrick’s day and the SF councillor supported it.

    If they’re invited and the local population don’t mind then i think it’s grand.

  • greg

    As long as they leave the paramilitary bands and trappings behind, its fair enough.

  • darth rumsfeld

    Perhaps Eamonn Scott should have a wee word with this dinosaur to get him back on message

  • Glensman

    AOH aren’t ‘on message’ they’re a completely seperate organisation.

    I suppose its up to Jack to express his opinion.

  • Cruimh

    How much power and relevence does the American AOH have these days ?

  • fair_deal

    Glensman

    “they marched in Galway City last St. Patrick’s day and the SF councillor supported it.”

    Are you sure about that?

  • susan

    How much power and relevence does the American AOH have these days ?

    Posted by Cruimh on Jun 08, 2007 @ 01:01 PM

    The AOH is limited in membership to Roman Catholic Irish or Irish American males 16 years of age or older. In reality is made up made up of middle-aged, menopausal moralising meddlers — the type more concerned with tut-tutting about mammies in their jammies outside the school gates than how well the children are being taught inside. The type who confronted with the desparate manipulation of a specific, hopeless and heartbroken “Miss D” by the state will not take a stand, but prefer to rather waffle on endlessly about the hypothetical thousands of women out there allegedly opting for abortion as contraception.

    The type unassailable in their conviction that all who do not believe as they do are lost to the cause of heaven, and/or all who do not think as they do are lost to the cause of reason.

    The type quick to react to any real or imagined insult to a romanticised past they revere, but deaf to their own in increasing irrelevance in a world that has long ago moved on.

    Obsessed with statues, symbols, parading and cultivating their addiction to congratulating themselves on their own righteousness and pointing out the comparative moral failings of others.

  • Dec

    is it not hypocritical of a AOH member to object to the OO? Are they not effectively equivalents of each other?

    The AOH were not invited, which is not entirely clear from the thread. However expecting American’s (or anyone else) to strike a perfect balance bewtween the political and cultural differences here is a tad optimistic. Oddly, the organisers haven’t extended any invitations to drunken, sectarian hangers-on which appear to be an inherent part of the marching tradition here.

  • deadmanonleave

    I vote that the Hibbees and the OO can have their own do (in two separate venues of course – mind the OO might want a march around the Hibbees one), and leave everyone that judges people as people rather than by their religion to get on with living in the 21st century.

  • derek

    I hear the orange order only accepted the invitation when they were given assurances that they would be allowed to march past the Catholic cathderal in Washington playing the sash and carrying a banner honouring the Shankill Butchers.

  • “You can only imagine our shock and dismay when we learned that the Orange Order, the most bigoted, anti-Catholic, anti-Irish organization in Ireland had been invited to participate in this folk festival sponsored by the Smithsonian on the national mall in Washington, D.C.,”

    Och, poor diddums.

    “Anti-Irish”? And I thought we were all supposed to be Irish together. Still, at least we can infer that, in the eyes of this bigoted dinosaur, republicanism equates to a land grab by one ethnic group over another. No wonder Orange halls catch fire.

  • Yokel

    Watchman, Orange Halls catch fire mainly in summer months…its caused by the sun, same way as scrub fires. Didnt you know that?

    Same way that more people are found lying on streets during the summer months with bruises and stab wounds and the like, sunstroke causes them to fall on the ground..near to some knives….

  • the type more concerned with tut-tutting about mammies in their jammies outside the school gates than how well the children are being taught inside

    I’m loathe to get into an off-topic debate, susan, but as you threw this one liner in here, I have to respond…

    Do you really think how well children learn in school is a simple function of how well taught the children are in school and bears no resemblance to the social environment in which children live? And the degree of support they receive from their parents? Because if that is what you think, that’s something every bit as silly and detached from reality as the AOH in the USA (to neatly tie up the threads).

  • Spongers Utd

    I think they should have a ‘march off’ to settle this. Anyone seen that south park episode, “F’d in the A”? Something like that.

  • Prince Eoghan

    I find it quite sad that the Yankee spokesperson think that the OO are culturally representative of ‘one side’ in Ireland. If they are indeed then I find that quite sad.

  • curious

    [i]’The AOH is limited in membership to Roman Catholic Irish or Irish American males 16 years of age or older.'[/i]

    The OO have lodges in many US states, so its not a new thing to see the Orange parades in America.

    ‘Today Orange lodges still flourish in California, Connecticut, Delaware, Massachusetts, Michigan, Minnesota, New York, and Pennsylvania. One thing which may be said about Orangeism in America; it cares about people – their bodies and souls, and their constitutional rights and privileges. American Orangemen are sensitive, community minded people with a strongly developed sense of service to God and humankind.’
    http://www.unitedlol228.org/history/index.htm

  • Cruimh

    The AOH is limited in membership to Roman Catholic Irish or Irish American males 16 years of age or older.

    Double whammy – racist and sectarian!

  • Prince Eoghan

    Maggot/worm

    You reckon that’s bad, these guys might talk a good game but see those supremacist OO badyins they actually walk the walk believe it or not ;¬)

  • susan

    “the type more concerned with tut-tutting about mammies in their jammies outside the school gates than how well the children are being taught inside

    I’m loathe to get into an off-topic debate, susan, but as you threw this one liner in here, I have to respond…

    Do you really think how well children learn in school is a simple function of how well taught the children are in school and bears no resemblance to the social environment in which children live? And the degree of support they receive from their parents? Because if that is what you think, that’s something every bit as silly and detached from reality as the AOH in the USA (to neatly tie up the threads).

    Posted by Sammy Morse

    Sammy Morse, I’ve often gained quite a bit from your contributions from Slugger, and I have to say I am both disappointed and even a bit disillusioned by the rather sensational extrapolations you make in your post here.

    Wearing pajamas outside doesn’t appeal to me personally — but I do not consider it remotely any of my business, anymore than in earlier years I considered the murder of innocent Spandex and Lycra by physiques never meant to be contained by Spandex and Lycra any of my business. As a working mother with young children and many responsibilities in my community, I’ve never worn pajamas outside the house — but I have often fallen asleep in my street clothes at the end of the day and seen the chlidren off in those same clothes the next day before attempting any semblance of getting myself together.

    I also know women who work nights while their husbands and children sleep, so that they will be home with the children during the day. Have I seen them shuffle by in pajamas? Yes, and I know no finer women. And yes, I am aware not every woman in pajamas is a candidate for Mother of the Year — perhaps only a few of them.

    What I find more worrying than mammies in jammies is that the headmaster of the school would talk to the media and publicly accuse the parents of the children in his care of “slovenliness, which means messy and lazy.” That such a measure would be greeted by many reasonable people as constructive to the children, and not destructive, causes me surprise and hurt.

    If children’s parents are not functioning and/or living up to responsibilities, no one is more sensitive or vulnerable to this than their own children. Ask anyone who grew up in a house where substance abuse, mental or physical health problems, or unexployment were chronic conditions — it is embarrassing at best, humiliating or even crushing at worst. The last thing children need is to have their parents singled out for their failings in the local newspaper.

    HOWEVER, I do not buy into the notion that simply wearing pajamas while seeing children safely to school is convicting evidence that parents do not care about their children’s education, are not supervising schoolwork, and are making sure the children are at school on time. What do I consider convicting evidence? A simple, time-tested proposal — how about educators and concerned parents acting responsibly and discreetly on actual evidence that an individual child’s work is not being supervised, or that a child is not safely and reliably arriving to school on times? Children at risk of neglect or abuse are helped in this way by caring educators in this way in every school, every schoolday, the world over.

    I don’t agree that the fitness of parents can be judged solely by their religion, their marital status, or their sexual preference, I’m not about to join a witch hunt over pajamas.

  • Limiting membership to those who profess a certain belief is hardly rare. Many do and for good reason and I see no cause for their exclusion from various events. I belong to an organization which limits membership to Catholic men over 18 years of age — NOT the AOH — and dedicated to helping the Catholic Church though it does also provide help to other community and civic causes and organizations. Nothing wrong with that sez I.

    But aside from that neither the KoC nor the AOH(as far as I know) attack other Churches or any places of worship, e.g. synagogues or temples. Nor do they attack the beliefs of non-Catholics or whatever denomination or none.

    Unfortunately, the Orange Order does not do the same. It attacks Catholics and Catholic belief in its statement of the Requirements of an Orangeman and it openly allows loyalist paramilitaries a place of honor in its parades. BIG DIFFERENCE.

    So, as an American, I find the presence of the OO at such a celebration unwelcome even though the OO does have lodges here in the States — so does the Ku Klux Klan.

  • Cruimh

    “Limiting membership to those who profess a certain belief is hardly rare. Many do and for good reason and I see no cause for their exclusion from various events.”

    is overt racism acceptable ?

    The purpose of the AOH is to discriminate in favour of “Irish” Catholics whereas

    “Civil and religious liberty for all : special privileges for none”.

    http://www.grandorange.org.uk/parades/religious_basis.html

  • Prince Eoghan

    >>“Civil and religious liberty for all : special privileges for none”.<

  • snakebrain

    susan

    nice work

  • Fleeter

    “is overt racism acceptable ?

    The purpose of the AOH is to discriminate in favour of “Irish” Catholics whereas

    “Civil and religious liberty for all : special privileges for none”. ”

    I think you have a real point here. The Orange Order as an organisation are not racist, welcoming native americans and black africans into their ranks.
    http://news.ulster.ac.uk/releases/2005/1643.html

    whereas the AOH does have a “race” or “ethnic” character not based purely on beliefs.

  • Cruimh

    Eoghan – sadly there are those in the OO who don’t live up to it’s ideals -but the ideals are praiseworthy. Whereas the AOH is blatently racist and is quite frank about it’s aim – to discriminate against non-members.

    The Knights are scarey dudes!

  • I think its’s worth pointing out that there are many Republicans who have no time for the AOH. I have never been to an AOH parade in my life, nor would I.

    I have always (and it’s just a personal opinion) drawn paralels between the AOH and The Orange Order. The AOH’s overly close affinity with The Catholic Church is not something I would subscribe to and it’s interesting that the majority of Nationalists/Republicans in The North have never afforded the AOH the same kind of status which has been afforded to The Orange Order by The Unionist Community…

  • Cruimh

    “The AOH’s overly close affinity with The Catholic Church is not something I would subscribe to and it’s interesting that the majority of Nationalists/Republicans in The North have never afforded the AOH the same kind of status which has been afforded to The Orange Order by The Unionist Community”

    While I have to respect your stand against the AOH, I think it’s fair to say that the AOH in Ireland was a different kettle of fish from the American organisation.

    It’s also untrue to say that about nationalists and republicans in Northern Ireland – it was the AOH and Joe Devlin that stopped Sinn Fein here – the AOH were a very powerful force !

  • Cruimh,

    One could certainly take issue with your assertion that it was the AOH who stopped SF here. There are a number of histotical accounts which would not give the AOH as nearly as much credit.

    However, my main point was primarily related to the AOH’s current standing and level of support in The North among the general Nationalist/ Republican population. I think it would be fair to say that there are very much on the periphery as far as any meaningful influence is concerned.

  • Cruimh

    “However, my main point was primarily related to the AOH’s current standing and level of support in The North”

    that’s not what you wrote Mac.

    “have never afforded the AOH “

  • Fair enough Cruimh. I should have said that was what I meant…

  • Cruimh

    Cheers Mac. Do you know any AOH members ? I’ve never met one though I have met a few knights.

  • Yeah Cruimh,

    I know one ! – A guy who used to be a next-door neighbour of mine. He never struck me as being a particularly political animal, mind you he was’nt particularly religous either! He is retired now and attends a few of their parades each year. I never spoke to him in any great detail about it, but on the rare occasions when the subject arose, I got the impression that there is very much a close bond among its members.

    I suppose in some ways, it may have partial similarities to some to the kind of camaraderie which allegedly exists between members of masonic lodges.

  • Prince Eoghan

    >>Eoghan – sadly there are those in the OO who don’t live up to it’s ideals -but the ideals are praiseworthy.<