Call to ban Orange parades- from Bangor!

The Stephen Nolan Show this morning has had numerous calls from irate residents of the predominantly unionist North Down town of Bangor, some of whom are calling for Orange parades to be banned from the town in the aftermath of violent scenes at yesterday’s Junior Orange parade. The violent scenes were not confined to the town but continued on a train carrying supporters back to Belfast.

  • Northsider

    The ‘troll’ above I suspect is a unionist who also on occasion posts as a ‘republican dissident’ and an ‘SDLP’ supporter.

    Or ‘North Belfast Roman Catholic’.

  • Chris Donnelly

    Just back from a day out and wiping the tears of laughter from my eyes after reading the rantings of a clearly problematic mind at work here.

    For the record:
    1.I have never taken a single post off of any thread I have started as I don’t even know how to do so.

    2. For what it’s worth, I’m quite relaxed about the personal attacks as I’m certain that saner minds frequenting this site (from whatever ideological stance) will agree with my contention that such attacks say more about the person making them than the target (in this case, myself.)

    3. The MOPEish mantra about unionists abandoning this site is a nonsense. Only last week we had a thread where republicans were told to dry their eyes when making similar claims about Slugger being a cold house.

    On any given day, there will be threads on Slugger which, due to the subjective opinions of the author, will be interpreted as emanating from a nationalist or a unionist stance.

    So what?

    It merely reflects the divergence of views within this society.

    If people are seriously considering throwing a hissy fit and huffing away from Slugger on that basis, then I would contend it says more about how far they have yet to travel in terms of accepting that there are two competing ideological traditions in the north than it does about any of the contributors to Slugger.

  • SuperSoupy


    You thought that too? Great minds and all that. Seemed very knowledgable of the site workings for a newbie but had only one focus slabbering about the ‘sinners’ at least he didn’t say treasonous or sycophantic.

  • Gonzo


    Work on the basis that if everyone’s in a huff, you’re doing something right.

  • frank

    I see the orange order has washed their hands of the violence, again.

    Nothing to do with these kids being attracted to oo parades by the sectarianism and paramilitary glorification.

    Orange Order heroes like uff commander Joe Bratty, for example.

  • Chris Donnelly

    Gotcha Gonzo!

  • Mick Fealty


    That’s full on troll behaviour. You make a statement then back off when reasonably asked to qualify it.

    I’m pleased you’ve decided to comment on Slugger, but if you are going to take potshots please try and make sure you’ve got something in the barrel first.

  • Roisin

    [i]Level playing fields = fine; self-serving censorship for Sinn Fein = terminally boring.[/i]

    Pardon my Lithuanian, but bullshit. I have rarely seen republicans of any stripe call for censorship on internet fora.

    Unionists like to dish it out, but they don’t like to take it. Slugger’s as a euphemism for the ‘troubles’.


    Or fools seldom differ.

  • Comrade Stalin


    The people who live on a street or in an area should have the right to refuse access to their area by a parade or demonstration, or passage through their area by certain persons or demonstrations they consider undesirable.

    Of course they should. Personally, I don’t like Jews, so I’d want them kept out of my street. And gays too, while you’re at it. I also find Indians and Blacks quite offensive, with their funny religions cooking their funny foods – so let’s keep them out too. Why stop there ? Let’s keep out everyone who disagrees with me on my politics or religion.

    In fact, let’s go a step further. Instead of denying people the right of free movement or assembly based on their colour or creed, why don’t we just round up the people we don’t like, stick them in camps, and make them work for nothing until they’re dead ?

    Let’s build a society where the street maps include colour codes showing what areas certain types of people are not wanted in. That’s a nice, tolerant, pluralist place where decent people would want to live. Isn’t it ?

  • Roisin


    Barrel full? Since the election your board is plagued with countless examples. This thread is one, a big fat juicy one. If Gav what’s his name can’t see that there’s no point in me wading through all the lard again to serve him up another. You can go hungry too. I don’t do links anyway. I prefer the high brow stuff, and leave people to do their own research.

  • Comrade Stalin

    Agreed with Gonzo. Republicans, including some of those laughing at the silly notion that unionists have deserted Slugger, are constantly complaining about the pro-unionist bias of Slugger, and particularly about one contributor in particular. To me this is a good sign that things are being done right.

    I find the idea that unionists have left because there are too many republicans around to be laughable. If this is the case, it means that unionism can’t be defended by the force of argument, and that people aren’t prepared to stand their ground in the face of opposition. If that truly is the case then unionism is dead.

  • SuperSoupy


    I’d like to note your phrasology:

    – a long term power battle within Unionism

    – a ‘crisis’ within Nationalism

    You challenged Henry on perceiving bias. That choice of language reeks of it imo.

    Like Henry I’m not saying people shouldn’t have bias, denying it was the issue.

  • Mick Fealty

    It’s a call Soupy. Could be wrong, might be right. Calling it bias might be fair comment, but I’d need to hear more to respond properly. In the meantime I’d only argue that it doesn’t constitute a bias in and of itself, though my method of arriving at it might described as such.

    Night all. And behave yourselves!

  • kensei

    “Yet all I see here is a total lack of respect aimed at Orangeism in general. That’s quite different from fair criticism and the people who practise the disrespect know what they’re doing. It’s old-fashioned ethnic hatred. Why isn’t it admitted?”

    Because it isn’t ethnic hatred at all. People have some fairly serious and long term beefs aimed at Orangeism with very specific causes:

    1. Historic role as part of the Unionist establishment in keeping Nationalism in it’s place. The desire to walk down a particular route at a particular time against the wishes of the people who live there must be seen in that context.
    2.Refusal to discuss problems with the residents of the area. Even if no resolution is made, if honest effort is made at face-to-face talks, the OO instantly claims the moral high ground.
    3. The anti-Catholic nature of the organisation, which exacerbates problems in a polarised society. It makes sense in a 17th Century context tpo call out Catholicism, but not so in the 21st, with Islam and Atheism and Secularism and probably liberal Anglicanism, all of which the OO would probably have as much if not more problems with than the Catholic Church.
    4. The tendency to violence and dummy spitting when it doesn’t get what it likes.
    5. The tendency to disown the violence it has unleashed.

    I’m sure others could add more. When you don’t respect others, funny enough you don’t get much back. The OO is emblematic of an era when Unionism could say no and be totally unmovable. I can almost admire it a little. But we are in a new era, and that era requires you bend a little. The process is glacial, but there are tentative steps – talking to the Catholic Church and the SDLP. Eventually you are going to have to talk to the people that represent those that have problems with you – SF – and you are going to have to reform a bit. It won’t mean losing your culture, merely your rough edges. And it’ll have to be a two way process, obviously.

    Could you just hurry the fuck up with it, and save everyone a lot of hassle?

  • kensei


    If Nationalism was in crisis, rather than merely transition, then you have to say that SF handled the crisis skillfully. The effectively gave away no more than was already agreed in 1998, saw off the SDLP on the Left and Dissidents on the Right and maneuvered Paisley into Government with no significant voice left to the Right of him. Maybe Bush and Blair should have let SF handle Iraq, no?

  • seanzmct

    Ah now Roisin, sure the the politically pristine Shinners would never stoop to the dark art of fronting. And there was us labouring under the illusion all these years that PSF was a front for PIRA.

    I am neither a Unionist nor a Republican but I regard Slugger as having become more or less a Republican domain. But sure what the hell, aren’t they better tapping away at their keyboards late into the night than their previous nocturnal pursuits.

  • harveyck

    On the subject of unionists boycotting a Republican-dominated Slugger. I will reveal all.
    Many of the apparently Republican posts on this site are the work of unionist sock-puppeteers.
    The object is to diminish the standing of Republicanism by posting as many hysterical,bile-coated,intolerant and offensive “Republican” comments as possible. And you have to give it to them; they’ve succeeded.

  • Rubicon

    Kensei – Can the OO change in the way you require and still be the OO?

    Isn’t the OO a group established with the very purpose of opposing Roman Catholicism? Yes, times have moved on, communication has improved (or at least the technology of communication) and OO members now may oppose a wide arena of organisations. But, it is their protest against Roman Catholicism that is so entwined to the OO identity that to loose it would not change the organisation but dissolve it.

    The problem, from my point of view, is that the OO takes little to no responsibility for the consequences for:

    1. Propagating a sectarian creed that can be – and has been – exploited by those with nefarious objectives.
    2. The absence of any education programme that puts the OO in its historical perspective so that current members (and hangers-on) do not attempt to make those principles relevant to community relations today. The absence of such a programme places a very serious query over whether the OO is the cultural organisation it claims to be.
    3. The inclusion of loyalist paramilitaries at the very heart of its organisation and functions. Loyalists “provide security” to its parades and bands commemorate loyalist murders through the open display of banners at OO parades. In doing this the OO verifies and supports the credentials for the very existence of loyalist paramilitaries.
    4. A continuing attempt to distance OO parades from their consequences. This is not running well with the public generally – though some here have made points to defend this ‘separation’.

    In reality – people are not open to sophisticated arguments that seek obfuscate and escape responsibility. It may not be a highly intellectual response but it’s a well informed one. With many OO parades comes trouble – and not just in nationalist areas. The rioting in East Belfast last night was a disgrace, worse than in Bangor and hardly reported.

    What the OO Masters need to consider is why they blink when a finger is thrust towards their eye. The response comes – not from thought – but a learned reaction of association.

    In 1950’s USA the KKK murdered. The KKK marched and congregated quoting the American constitution as protection. Today, that organisation causes noses to curl even in South Carolina and Louisiana and is all but dead.

    The OO needs to clean up its act – and they have a heap of shit to deal with. Whether they do or not doesn’t bother me at all. Personally, their principles of the past that could have described brave and honourable positions have been sullied. Only they are to blame for that.

  • The Third Policeman

    Of course once again I have been called on to solve one of the great problems of our time. Lesser political minds are stumped. Certain men in high offices are becoming uncomfortable. Rumours are whispered. Innuendo is abroad. Letters of resignation are being readied. Is there no solution?

    Of course there is. Are there not lots of breathern in the police? Millions, if my sources are to be believed. Well why not form hundreds of PSNI loyal orange marching bands? They can take an active role (it wouldn’t kill them, judging by the bellies) in enforcing the marches and steering the mob away from violence.

    A shot is heard in amoungst the flutein’ and the slurpin.’ Is it a republican? No! Its officer Graham on lambeg.
    “Put away that can of tennants!” He calls out to the tune of Derry’s Walls.

    Eventually as the older members of the order die off and the younger ones find a new place to drink the marches will be nothing but PSNI bands. There’ll be no more need for the Parades Commission at all as the time and location of parades will be totally up to the Chief Constable (by this stage surely Gerry Kelly). The biggest skanger in the world (Damo O’Hare of Tallaght, 7f5in, 360pounds) wouldn’t dare go drinking and messing at an all-police-parade. So there we have it! The perfect solution.

    Superb. He’s done it again. Another chapter in the north’s history sorted. All hearts go out to this quiet spoken servent (and savant surely?) of humanity. A prominant member of society opens his cheque book and has already marked a significant figure as a small token of his esteem. The cheque is taken but ripped to atoms by the smiling young man. A thunderous applause breaks out. A lady in blue at the back of the hall begins to sing O Peace Be Thine, and the anthem, growing in volume and sincerity, peals out into the quiet night, leaving few eyes dry.

    Now, if you can find any reason why this plan of mine will not work then lets hear it.

  • Rubicon

    I somehow think this 3rd policeman is the 2nd tenor.

  • kensei

    “Kensei – Can the OO change in the way you require and still be the OO?”

    I fail to see why not. You miss my point, I think. It’s not that the OO should oppose everyone – it’s that it should define itself in terms of what it is for and promote it.

    It seems clear to me there are in fact 2 Orange Orders. There is the one that Nationalism, and probably the rest of world perceives, which is defined in terms of parades, intransigence, intolerance and violence. Then there is the other OO which plays a part in the life of it’s members – where people meet, engage in some community and charity work, and one that plays a historic and cultural role. The first cannot survive in the modern climate – it will become increasingly isolated and squeezed and marginalized. That is already happening to an extent, as the this post hints at. Perception even among Unionists change.

    So it must change, or it will pull down the other OO with it. The problem for me, is no one outside that grouping can tell Orangeism this, as they are ethnic Jaffa haterz / evil Republican killers / enter as appropriate, and there doesn’t appear to be anyone inside with the courage or insight to do it.

  • Rubicon

    I hope you’re right Kensei.

    All too often we look at the past with a veneer that some would call wisdom. It fails because how people thought at the time they thought it was informed by the questions of their time. Hindsight wasn’t in their gift.

    The history of the Orange is a courageous and principled one. They didn’t stand for what they did in the environment of assured victory. What they stood for at that time was enlightened. That enlightened view was sufficient to cause one’s own death – but it was also informed by the economics of the time.

    With such a past the OO have made themselves more similar to the KKK. Nobody drove them there – they were the source of sectarian hatred long before Irish independence – much less before the “troubles”.

    If there are 2 OO’s as you suggest – it’s time one of them tried to rescue their identity. They’ve a steep hill to climb – they’ll need to first confront their members that have made them appear like the KKK.

    I’m not at all sure the history of Orange is protected by the OO. They don’t promote understanding and have for well over a century been associated with sectarian hatred. Today they are overtly associated with loyalist paramilitaries.

    Perhaps it was a thought, action and delivery that was honourable in its time. Now, it’s a dinosaur that cannot and has not defined any reason it should be respected. It exists because society has higher principles (some dating to the Orange parliamentary tradition) that allows it freedom of association.

    It’s unfortunate that this freedom is (and has been) so abused. It has been abused by the OO and unless they look at what their ancestors stood for, unless they stop fostering sectarian hatred they’ll arrive at a Darwinian end. Others will then write their epitaph.

  • IJP


    Actually, I think it is quite possible that Unionists have left this forum because they can’t defend their position.

    Unionism is, after all, pointless these days.

    The problem is, the common assumption is that any replacement of Unionism would be Nationalism.

    In fact, they are the same thing. They believe fundamentally in politics based by religious community, in sectarian carve-up, in segregation of facilities, in dividing up turf, historical myths, (deliberate) ignorance of one “side”‘s failings, etc etc.

    I think many people who voted Unionist in the past recognize Unionism has nothing to offer. It is up to us to offer them an alternative which is something other than a mirror image.

  • SuperSoupy

    The arrogance of APNI.

    ‘They’ll all come round to our way of thinking eventually’ – 0.5% every decade give or take a complete rejection from the early 80s on.

    Give it up.

    I don’t live East of the Lagan, North of Ards or South of Carrick – your (increasingly weird christian dominated) sect is a little tedious.

  • SuperSoupy


    Utterly ambigious on gay relationships.

    What says Naomi?

    Personal choice is it? A sin? Your next leader.

    Weird. Hag fags?

    You barely challenged the last homophobe and you will sit back and let a fundamentalist screw you shortly.

    Party for the ‘house church’.

  • bewareofgreeks

    …bearing gifts!

    Oh dear, Belfast Gonzo exposed as a troll-How unedifying! (anyone know how to say troll in Greek?)

  • darth rumsfeld

    “So the attack on Catholic homes in Short Strand and also on the front of The Albertbridge Road was just part of a bit of Bank Holiday high jinks was it? Glad it had nothing to do with sectarianism then. Maybe it was the UDA chants from the cider-willing spides that fooled me, eh..???”

    oh dear- selective outrage alert
    macswiney, you really need to take off the MOPE blinkers. Let’s go through this again.

    A spide is a spide is a nasty piece of work who adds very little to society except pools of vomit on the street every Friday evening, and extra work for the A & E after closing time. These people are spides, and I condemn them utterly -again- if you’d bothered to read my posts with an unjaundiced eye.

    I absolutely accept your report of drunken sectarian behaviour, and I’m not making any excuse for it-as you know full well. What I think was quite clear from my post was the point that you can’t reasonably blame the organisers of a parade in Bangor for what people do geting off a train in Belfast, possibly hours later.

    But you couldn’t confine your disgust- which I share BTW- to the disgusting youths you saw. Nope,your post is a classic case of the old wannabevictim impulse kicking in, and you response to me implies that this was some sinister Orange Order inspired plan to oppress the RC minority. It palpably wasn’t- it was just scum doing what they do best.

    Do you really think these heroes would have stayed at home and done needlework if there hadn’t been a parade? They might have gone done to Bangor for the day, and got full, annoyed the locals and trashed a train.

  • cushy glenn

    “Orange Order heroes like uff commander Joe Bratty, for example.”

    oh dear frank, you’ve obviously only started your career as a black propagandist.The picture on your link is of a loyalist parade- not an orange one- and Bratty wasn’t an orangeman

  • Joe Bratty was an Orangeman. He was a member of Ballynafeigh Orange Lodge and played in the Ballynafeigh Apprentice Boys Flute Band.
    Here is his pic in full band dress. Also in the pic, wearing the sash is Rev William Hoey – the man who once called Cardinal Daly a “red capped weasel”.

  • Darth,

    You are guilty of a sizeable degree of paranoia in your response!

    At no stage in any of my posts did I mention the Orange Order (even once!). I described the youths as loyalists (which they were). I also described their attack on Catholic homes in Short Strand as sectarian (which it was).

    I did not blame or even attempt to blame the parade organisers, however I was factually pointing out that a blatantly sectarian attack had taken place by people who attended the parade. This was in response to many posts on this thread who had attempted to excuse Mondays violence as the work of drunken yobs with no sectarian agenda. (something you also appear to be doing). When loyalists gangs wearing Rangers tops and chanting UDA slogans smash the windows of Catholic homes this is SECTARIAN. Full stop.

    It would be helpful if you acknowledged that this was a sectarian attack rather than coming out with paranoid rubbish about “victimhood” etc… None of which bears any substance whatsoever…

  • darth rumsfeld

    “It would be helpful if you acknowledged that this was a sectarian attack”
    Doh!!!I’m quite happy to say that what you describe is obviously sectarian- a hate crime in fact, though to be pedantic we have no actual evidence that any of these thugs attended (to use your interestly nuanced choice of word) the parade at all- or indeed were even in Bangor.

    Just to be picky again, if the train stopped at Hollywood etc. how do we know where they got on? Do we know that they didn’t just hop off the train at Bangor station and head straight to the nearest bar? I’ve often been to Newcastle on a Sunday and seen the mirror image spides shuffling aimlessly along in groups of green and white hoops/polyester GAA tops- I don’t assume they were at any sporting or “cultural” event
    I have actually no idea what time this parade took place, or the incident you witnessed either but a considerable time could have elapsed between the two. If Tyrone GAA fans on the way home from Croke park some evening stop the bus and urinate at the roadside, is the team responsible?
    I expect they probably did spectate of course, but I doubt that they came home so fired up with the martial prowess a few hundred teenagers and some bands that they went on a sectarian rampage. Their idiocy is more deply ingrained. And I would even guess that they didn’t help any little old Protestant ladies across the street. They may well have been as big a plague to their own community.

    You just can’t seem to get it. No true orangeman wants to see drunken yobs attacking our neighbours, or anyone.

  • IJP


    Not sure if you just had a late one last night, but let’s look at your party’s record:

    – now accepts consent principle;
    – now accepts policing;
    – now accepts power-sharing;
    – now pro-EU with caveats;

    All Alliance Party policies in the mid-70s, when your party was in favour of sending Prods “back to Scotland”, shooting police officers, socialist revolution, and withdrawal from the EEC.

    I note your selection of Martin “Sinn Féin has always been in favour of the woman’s right to choose” McGuinness as Deputy First Minister. Let’s just repeat that line again and compare it to party policy… ah…

    Should I take it that SF believes all people who dare to practise Protestantism are “fundamentalist”? An interesting line from a so-called “republican”.

  • Jesus Darth!

    For a man who claims to be excusing them you are making a damn good job of it !!!

    “though to be pedantic we have no actual evidence that any of these thugs attended (to use your interestly nuanced choice of word) the parade at all- or indeed were even in Bangor”.

    Eh??????????? Darth I actually witnessed this incident!!!!!. They were escorted off at the station and went on the rampage within seconds of reaching start of The Albert Bridge. (footage of them being escorted was also screened and shown on BBC Newsline and UTV news last night!!!!!

    I have heard about revisionism but this breaks new ground…!!

  • darth rumsfeld

    er- macswiney, you witnessed them get off the train and behaving appallingly – you didn’t witness anything before that- certainly didn’t witness them in Bangor watching the parade or not. That’s all I’m saying. It’s hardly controversial, or excusing anything this group of primordial excrement indulged in… gods!

    But you did you use the term “attended” which has clear connotations of participation- and we just don’t know whether they did-that’s my point

  • Dread Cthulhu

    DR: “you witnessed them get off the train and behaving appallingly – you didn’t witness anything before that- certainly didn’t witness them in Bangor watching the parade or not. That’s all I’m saying.”

    Then why, just as an aside, would a number the good people of Bangor be wanting to ban the OO from marching within the town, Darth? Are you suggesting they simply got up on morning and decided they didn’t like bowlers and sashes?

    For the record, I do seem to recall one of the posters in this thread claiming to be a resident of the town and commenting on the pollution left behind by those “in attendence” of the parade. Is it not a reasonable inference that those who did the damage in Bangor and those cast off the train from Bangor had at least something of an overlap in personnel?

  • darth rumsfeld

    “Then why, just as an aside, would a number the good people of Bangor be wanting to ban the OO from marching within the town, Darth”

    Because the “good people” of Bangor – or at least that self-appointed minority of chatterers- are insufferable snobs who think that a wall should be built round Kilcooley to keep the working classes out of sight. And as for those ghastly oiks from Belfast-pass the smelling salts, Algernon!

  • Dread Cthulhu

    DR: “Because the “good people” of Bangor – or at least that self-appointed minority of chatterers- are insufferable snobs who think that a wall should be built round Kilcooley to keep the working classes out of sight. And as for those ghastly oiks from Belfast-pass the smelling salts, Algernon! ”

    If Republicans have trouble with the OO, it’s “sectarian hatred”… when Unionists have trouble with the OO, it’s class warfare… hmmmmmm…

    Ever consider the possibility the problem are the sort of yobs who come out for the parade?

    On the other hand, it is heartening to see there are some things that can be agreed upon on a cross-community basis…

  • seanzmct

    Bangor is a town of “have yachts” and also “have nots” -with a range in between. It is simply insulting and patronising to the working class people in the area to suggest that they are any less-opposed to yobbery than the better off.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    seanzmct: “Bangor is a town of “have yachts” and also “have nots” -with a range in between. It is simply insulting and patronising to the working class people in the area to suggest that they are any less-opposed to yobbery than the better off. ”

    Then that would leave simple human disgust at yobbery, would it not?

    I do find it interesting that some of the most strident “law and order” posters on this blog suddenly get all squishy when it comes to Loyalist yobbery.

  • frank

    “oh dear frank, you’ve obviously only started your career as a black propagandist.The picture on your link is of a loyalist parade- not an orange one- and Bratty wasn’t an orangeman”

    Oh dear cushy, you would be better asking the orange institution why it was happy to march side by side with mass murderers & why it continues to commemorate uvf & uda killers at its annual ‘celebrations’.

    Explain to me again why the orange order celebrates the Shankill butchers ??

  • bewareofgreeks

    You have to understand that people like Cushy do not perceive themselves as apologists for men of violence.-perceive being the operative word.

  • seanzmct

    Dread Cthulhu,

    Who was getting all “squishy about Loyalist yobbery”? Not me. I am against all yobbery-loyalist,republican and plain unaffiliated yobbery. So are most of the people of Bangor, whatever their class.

  • frank


    Just to clarify

    Lodge 733 carried the uff commander celebration banner for the first time during last years 12th of July parade in Belfast and was filmed and mentioned in the utv report on the evening the 12th of July last.

    Perhaps you could give us your opinion on the Shankill Road lodge who commemorate the Shankill Butchers and other uvf members.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    seanczmt: “Who was getting all “squishy about Loyalist yobbery”? Not me. I am against all yobbery-loyalist,republican and plain unaffiliated yobbery. So are most of the people of Bangor, whatever their class. ”

    Precisely. There are those, however, who make grand shows of decrying Loyalist yobbery and, essentially, say “well, that’s that, next topic,” despite demanding far more when it comes to “Republican” hooliganism.

    Like you, I’d prefer to see the law upheld, regardless of the political or religious stripe of the miscreant.

  • bit the dust

    Oh Dear, no sign of a response from those supporters of the ‘respectable’ Orange Order re. the issue of Banners commemorating rabid sectarian murderers such as the esteemed J. Bratty (deceased).

  • vinty

    darth’s contribution on paramilitary involvement in oo parades would be interesting.

    Is it ok for mass murderers to wear a sash ?

  • dave

    Joe Bratty was never a member of Ballynafeigh Flute Band, hence that’s why a band from Sandy Row carries his banner.

    As far as i know, the band from ormeau road is a non-paramilitary one.

  • Anonymous Coward