Coverage of Tyrone Meeting

RTE carries some (brief, video) coverage of one of Sinn Fein’s public meetings today, held in Tyrone. Gerry McGeough posed questions from the floor. Discussion of the meeting in Toome is taking place on this thread, from people who were there. Breaking News gives an overview of the Toome debate, including a quip from Laurence O’Neill and quotes from Adams’ speech.

  • Henry94

    Gerry McGeough posed questions from the floor.

    He must have sneaked in while the heavies were looking out for Rory.

  • gerry

    henry I’ll think you’ll find it was a different meeting. Rory gave us the events honestly and acurately as he was there on another thread linked above.

    it does help to read what rusty put up before commenting.

  • Henry94

    gerry

    I’ll think you’ll find it was a different meeting.

    The appearance of the leading and brightest dissident at one meeting makes claims that dissent was excluded from the other. I do not accept that someone who refers to others as traitors who should be treats as such can be accepted as an objective witless to anything.

  • Rory (South Derry)

    Henry

    Are you not keeping up!

    Gerry Adams was in Toome then Galbally!

    What we (myself and many others) witnessed today was some show!

    The provos kept dissenters out in South Derry!

    In East Tyrone I feel there would have been uproar if a well respected spokesman for the other side and former republican activist had have been kept out!

    I was in Toome you weren’t pal!

    The Provo roadshow before during and after was impressive and 100% staged – even more so Gerrys exit!

    Don’t slag me pal I know exactly what happened as I stood outside with Paul McGlinchey!

  • Henry94

    Rory

    Your claimed physical presence is beside the point. Your bias renders you an unreliable witness. Your mutterings about treating people like traitors makes it impossible to take you seriously on any subject. In particular it makes your claims of heavy-handedness by anybody else raise an eyebrow. If you are willing to act like a gurrier yourself then you are in no position to criticise.

    I stood outside with Paul McGlinchey!

    I’m delighted for you both!

  • Jeremy

    “The Provo roadshow before during and after was impressive and 100% staged – even more so Gerrys exit! ”

    It was professionally run but is that not the best way to run it. I dont see how the Republican struggle can be advanced by half-assed meetings or imcompetency. The problem with those offering an alternative to the SF leaderships strategy is that there is little structure, organisation or strategy to it. Once they get that together and can run as slick an operation then they can make a difference. Its pointless to put down your opponents by highlighting their professionalism. The slicker the operation the better, welcome to the 21st century its a blast and we’re only 7 years into it.

  • parcifal

    Rory,
    the anxiety/depression you’re experiencing is normal; there is resentment and misunderstanding, and you feel betrayed.

    I guarantee you that post devolution when the news stories will be about “real” changes in the lives of folk in norn iron, rather than a continual stop-go , “will they-won’t they” diet of cliffhangers; things will appear much different.

    Like the passing of a heavy rain cloud.
    New horizons will appear.

    British influence will wane, naturally; Blair will get his legacy, and Dublin will be much more involved in the North.
    All the Southern parties will be more pro-active aswell, as the policing issue is stalling their involvement.

    The Border will seem increasingly irrelevant, and will disappear being over-grown with ivy.

    Once Orange and Green can share power, and begin to trust in the North, the idea of sharing power in the South won’t be so unrealistic.

    I honestly believe things will be better for Republicans; and hope and pray that your suffering and torment will end soon.

  • Rory (South Derry)

    Henry94

    Sinn Fein are angels who can never do no wrong!

    You call me a gurrier! Don’t make me laugh pal what is going on in the Provo mpvement is criminal (but they are used to that)!

    Why the hell did Gerry call these PUBLIC meetings if Toome was going to turn into such a sham!

    Me stating a fact about Sinn Fein being Traitors –

    If they accept the continuation of the partition of Ireland to achieve there own political gains North & South – Then they are!

    No credible republican in history would disagree with this sentiment!

    [play the ball – edited moderator]

  • Quaysider

    Support for PSNI won’t cement partition – Adama

    What’s with the Battlestar Gallactica reference?
    Are the drones still hoping to eject us from the colonies?

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    Rory

    Your argument that there would have been uproar in Tyrone if some had been excluded compared to being willing to bar peple in Sth Derry is patent nonsense.
    What is it that makes SF sensitive to Tyrone that is not available to Sth Derry, given that both have always been viewed as key republican constituencies.

    The appearance of Mc Geough at Galbally has clearly unravelled the slant you put on the Toome meeting, in fact it destroys most of your argument on exlusion etc.

  • Rory (South Derry)

    Pat

    Ring PSF on Monday and ask them why Toome was so heavily guarded?

    I can only report what I see as I see it and you weren’t there so you are irrelevant to the debate!

  • media management 101

    1. RTE video cameras and Tommie Gorman
    2. High profile of possibly candidate who would be standing against them

    They could hardly, in that position, refuse entry to Gerry McGeough

    Sth Derry was a different kettle of fish altogether, as Rory has elaborated.

  • Henry94

    Rory

    You call me a gurrier!

    I said you are willing to act like a gurrier. I hope you just got carried away and you didn’t mean the implied death threats.

    Do you think the people who voted for the Good Friday Agreement were traitors? The Agreement accepts partition until there is a majority in the north willing to vote against it. Can the people betray the nation and if so what is the nation other than the people.

    The consent principle is the settled will of the nationalist people of Ireland. If you are a democrat you will accept that.

  • Rory (South Derry)

    Media Management 101

    Thank you for clearing up the different circumstances as people such as Pat McLarnon & Henry can only see things through their provo tinted glasses!

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    Rory,

    you are only claiming to have been there. There is no actual evidence that you were. Given your recorded hostility to SF are your allegations to be accepted at face value? At this juncture irrelevancy is a valid point and highlights your own irrelevancy.

    MM,

    so you are alleging SF knew what media outlets were to be in Toome and thus behaved differently at various locations? Bizarre.

  • mm

    do you expect us to believe that sinn fein did not know which media outlets were going to be where? bizarre!

  • Rory (South Derry)

    Henry94

    Cool the head no one threatened you!

    The problem I find with the Good Friday Agreement is that the Provos did not sell this policy on Policing when all there spin and Razmataz got the nationalist/republican community to weigh in behind it!

    They seem in the spin to have buried the truth about where the GFA was really going to take us all!

    I backed the GFA all those 9 years ago as we all as republicans had enough of the fighting and more so the infighting!

    The nationalist community bought into what it was sold at the time and they were lied too as in Toome in 1999 Gerry OHara was heard to say that this is the stepping stone to beating the brits out of the 6 counties – All drvel – All Lies or was he not in on where the Leadership was going?or did they even know at the time?

    Henry you ask a prisoner if he was ever told in the Kesh that this is where the GFA would take us – & the definite answer you will get is NO!

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    MM,

    as Toome was the first of these meetings and had been heavily publicised as such I would have imagined SF to be expecting a very large media presence at the event.
    Thus the idea of SF personnel having a policy of keeping people out with a large media presence all too willing to hear the whingefest from the excluded is indeed bizarre.

  • mm

    except that there was not a large media presence at Toome and the cameras were at tyrone, not toome. and to suggest, as you are doing, that sf were not and are not aware of what media is going to be where is just daft.

  • Rory (South Derry)

    Pat

    WHY DON’T YOU JUST STAND IN THE ELECTIONS YOU VIRTUALLY ARE A PROVO

    I hate no one but just can not stand the hypocracy of this mob!

    I remember the Clanree – sitting there listening to the leadership telling us that nothing short of a united Ireland would ever do and that we had won the war!

    The celebrations on the day of the 1st ceasefire!

    All bollix – All Lies

    I think they can not stop the brits dragging them where they want like little rag dolls

  • parcifal

    Pat,Henry
    There’s little you can do/say if someone is in a state of rage; they’ve made up their minds and just want to sound off, needing an audience for the attention-seeking.

    Its self-defeating throwing your toys out of the pram rory.

  • Jeremy

    Rory says that he and Paul McGlinchey were in Toome and were excluded. Posts are made explaing Galbally was open, McGeough was there posing questions. Media Management then comes in with a post and suggests that it was ’cause RTE were at Galbally.
    Did you not spot the BBC interviewing Paul Rory. – http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/6281805.stm

    So if there was cameras at both meetings today it makes a nonsense of many of the previous posts. Seems like it was not that different a kettle of fish, despite elaborations.

  • mm

    thanks for that jeremy i did not see that. i note however that what paul mcglinchey says does not contradict what rory has been saying and that the cameras were not, along with members of the public like mcglinchey and rory, allowed into the meeting

    perhaps they decided on the way from toome to tyrone to take a different approach

    it is still daft to suggest sf are not aware of the media

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    rory,

    ‘WHY DON’T YOU JUST STAND IN THE ELECTIONS YOU VIRTUALLY ARE A PROVO’

    In N Belfadt (where I live) I fully supported both candidates chosen for the Assembly elections. I have been asked to consider putting my name forward for the council elections though I haven’t made up my mind yet.

    parcifal,

    you are right of course, but opponents are operating in ever decreasing circles and it is pertinent to help them towards their zerosome goal

  • Tir Eoghain Gael

    I was at the meeting at Galbally and i have to say that the meeting was open to one and all and nobody was turned away from the door as the presence of Mc Geough and a number of continuity men can prove that point. The Chair Sean Begly asked for a show of hands at the start of the meeting as to weather the media can stay during the Q&A section and a majority decided the press could stay, so it was truly open to anyone to say their piece in the presence of the media. Mc Geough showed himself up as someone as who has an axe to grind with the SF leadership and it took away from his arguement. He kept calling Michelle Gildernew Mrs Taggert which is her married name and it all just looked childish. Adams wiped the floor with him and i would be very surprised if he stands for election.

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    mm,

    SF are ambushed by the media all the time, the Toome event would have been gobbled up by Gorman et al.
    The camapaign by the SF allaince has thus far been fought out mainly in the media and i’m sure they would have had a camera hanging over their shoulders as they approached the meeting in Toome. The exposure of being barred from a meeting would have been too good to turn their noses up.

  • Rory (South Derry)

    Jeremy

    I am well aware of the BBC interviewing Paul

    I wasn’t more than 10 feet away at the time

    No sign of RTE in Toome though & it was strange that only 2 BBC personel were outside such a PSF proclaimed histiric event

  • Jeremy

    Dont see that you need more than two to do an interview and report. Nothing strange about it.

  • Fuiseog

    The consent principle is the settled will of the nationalist people of Ireland. If you are a democrat you will accept that. Henry

    Actually Henry an Irish Republican would hold the GFA referendum was a fundamental part of the counter insurgency strategy by the british establishment to create the illusion of democracy while politically, economically and militarily continuing with the occupation.

    Essentially those with power had the power to mould the agenda to their own ends, how was that democracy? What republican would claim it was?

    As a Republican I want a referendum put to all the people affected by Ireland’s national sovereignty issue. That in particular includes those citizens of all these islands and perhaps even our latest generation of emigrants. Is not that true democracy as opposed to this mockney version to which you hang your hat?

    Ive read your posts for quite some time here Henry and I feel you do your true nature an injustice.

    From what youve repeatedly written your political identity is a nationalist with a small r that you, when it suits you, tag as republican to best integrate a nationalist position with neo-Sinn Féin’s.

    Anything to avoid a revisit to the horror of before … or rather anything that necessitates further suffering, sacrifice and loss of life. Which btw is fair enough and very very understandable.

    For me this explains your tendency to blank out or disassociate when faced with the squaring of general Republicanism with the circle of present Sinn Féin policies moulded, I sincerely believe, by the british Mi6 ‘long game’ counter insuregency strategy.

    I think tonite here Ive just realised that with you and to a lesser extent ‘apparatchik Pat’ people are actually discussing the merits of Republicanism with what are essentially mellowed out middle aged comfortable conservative nationalists who are merely looking a quite life.

    Its like debating Revolution with your granda in a way. You feel you should be respectful but know he’s just not ‘with it’ anymore and his time has past and his main concern his kin dont get hurt cos that’d be too much for his auld heart.

    As entertaining, frustrating, annoying, challenging and sometimes interesting as it can/has been.Its simply a side show to what we Republicans ought to be debating.

    Radical Republicanism with an attitude of genuine revolt is a young persons game, I look forward to that dialectic coming through and new blood, new energy while respectful of the past endeavours (mistakes and all) taking the challenge to where it needs to be.

    Namely slap bang into the heart of the british establishment and all those who sail on her !!!

    Is mise
    Fuiseog

  • Harris

    Gerry Adams had this to say earlier.

    “During a two hour debate the West Belfast MP told republicans opposed to his party’s strategy for achieving a united Ireland to spell out clearly what they would do to get rid of British rule.”

    Has Gerry and his panel ever once put forth their true strategy on achieving a united Ireland?

  • Elvis Parker

    To divert from the squabbling for a second. Arent there TWO important points
    Isnt it the case that although Independent Candidates may get few votes and probably no seats increasing numbers of Republicans will simply stay at home on polling day? Am I right in saying that even the last General Election in the North resulted in the first decline in the Nationalist percentage for a decade?
    Two. And I honestly throw this out for discussion. Adams is badly damaged. Obviously there were always people who disagreed but generally and publically Adams was portrayed as the man with ‘the knowledge’ and the support of Republicans? His credibility cannot recover.
    Next leader?

  • Joe Romhar

    wouldn’t be the first tout to run in an election

  • gerry

    Parcifal post devoloution there will be stories about real lives?

    Of course there will, everybody will get along fine, no more brawls in the halls, and pulling of hair out. No more raids on stormont, everything will be fine. Since we have yet to see that happen even when the moderate parties have some say, I think perhaps you are in a state of euphoria at the thought of sinn fein joining the feast and like pavlov’s dog cannot see beyond the morsel being offered.

  • Tir Eoghain Gael

    Before tonights meeting in Galbally I thought that SF would take a hammering in the forth coming assembly elections but if the meeting tonight is anything to go by I feel that the majority of people will continue to vote SF. It wasnt easy for SF to come into the republican heart of East Tyrone and sell this motion to the people but I feel that the vast majority of republicans support SF on their stance on the policing issue. There was a heated exchange between Gerry Mc Geough and Adams at one point, Adams asked Mc Geough what his alternative strategy was, and Mc Geough sayed that SF should start by pulling out of the assembly, as they were being made look fools of by the unionists, Adams responded by asking was that the same assembly that you were standing in election for, the people could see the contradictions in Mc Geoughs arguement and lack of alternatives.

  • DMCM

    Sinn Fein have changed dramatically over the past ten years so its no surprise that there are some Republican people who do not want to support the policing endorsement.
    The SDLP moulded many of the changes within policing. Why did Sinn Fein not take on policing when the SDLP moved on it? What difference is there now?
    Anyway, it is a brave move for Sinn Fein and a healthy sign that other Republicans are willing to debate this.
    A new Ireland is being formed before our very eyes.
    The best way to cope with change is to help create it.

  • Henry94

    fuiseog

    Anything to avoid a revisit to the horror of before … or rather anything that necessitates further suffering, sacrifice and loss of life. Which btw is fair enough and very very understandable.

    It’s not the thought of suffering sacrifice and loss of life that disturbs me as much as the belief that revolutionary young fellas like yourself could go through it all for another 30 years without altering in the slightest the political equation as it exists today. And by then you’ll be old and soft yourself and ready to deal. And some youngster will make you laugh by claiming he is wiser than you.

    the GFA referendum was a fundamental part of the counter insurgency strategy by the British establishment to create the illusion of democracy while politically, economically and militarily continuing with the occupation.

    That’s fine as an opinion. But even if you think (foolishly I would have to say) the 80%+ who voted for it were duped you have no moral authority to take arms against it.

    You can’t set yourself up as judge and jury over the question of the fitness of the Irish people to make a decision.

    As a Republican I want a referendum put to all the people affected by Ireland’s national sovereignty issue. That in particular includes those citizens of all these islands and perhaps even our latest generation of emigrants. Is not that true democracy as opposed to this mockney version to which you hang your hat?

    No, I don’t accept that true democracy means you getting to decide the terms of the referendum. But even if you could, support for the consent principle would remain overwhelming on this island, on these islands and in any combination you choose.

    It is a principle that is supported by every elected representative north south east and west. Now either MI6 have found a way to fool all of the people all of the time (except for a handful) or the people want the consent principle because it is right.

    If enough young republican people like you make politics and persuasion the basis of your struggle you will see a united Ireland.

  • Jesus Christ

    Dissidents here are supposed to be grateful they weren’t shot this time. There is a tide of resentment building up against Gerry and his RUC loving friends. In the northm that usually boils over into blood spilling. It might be time to hammer home a few home truths to the SDLP mark 2.

  • Aontroim

    Rory (South Derry)

    A further couple of points. Firstly, I don’t recall seeing Spike there this afternoon. Where you at the same meeting?

    Secondly, you indeed mention Lawrence O Neill. If i recall correctly, Lawrence O’Neill called up any newspaper that would take his story, to say he was ‘stepping down’ from SF and that he was the core of SF in North Antrim. Blah blah. That was good craic. The truth be told – Lawrence has kept his head down for 20 years while he ran his business in Ballymena. He only joined again in 2005 when he was asked to stand for election! Poor Lawrence.

    His ego got the better of him and he seemed to dominate the microphone at every 81 Commemorative event last year. People were growing weary i presume of his ranting in SF, so he jumped ship knowing that he could be put on a pedastool within the ‘disaffected’. As we all know the anti-SF media love to hear a story like Lawrence’s. It seems that he got his selfish glory a few weeks although evidently this hysteria around Lawrence lasted a month and he now appears to be quickly slipping from grace. Where has he gone?

    So much for challenging Gerry A for a live tv debate on policing! He never posed one question to the SF President at the meeting he attended today! It is blatantly obvious that peoples egos have taken over the dissident crew. Wake up and smell the coffee. Rory (south doire) – u are being led up the garden path.

  • Crataegus

    At the risk of sounding entirely stupid why would anyone vote Sf and not SDLP? Why vote for the slow learners when you can vote for the ones whose policy they have adopted many many years later. Seems to me if you agree with the SF line you would be better supporting a vehicle that can actually produce plausible policy and move on quickly. Why support a bunch of mime artists?

    On the other hand if you don’t agree with their policy and feel shafted, feel that the internal debate and selection was and is stage managed, that the organisation is not democratic then leave and either support another party or set up a new one.

    SF = SDLP lite a brackish brew, a beverage with no fizz left. The sort of drink you buy expecting something different and knock back a good mouth full before you realise it tastes like piss?

  • Micky Mc

    Jesus Christ

    Your Comment “that dissedents were lucky they weren’t shot this time”.

    That day Martin McGuinness went to Bellaghy mob handed he was lucky to get out with his life as Guns were pointed at him and the Provos clearly know it!

    People stepped in to stop that situation turning into the blood bath you speak about.

    No blood can be shed over this policy but you are correct to say that the SDLP Mark2 must get home truths head on unlike the way they side stepped it in Toomebridge yesterday!

    Wake up Gerry & co before mommentum ensures that the Brits will never leave! Or do you trist your new found friend that much?

  • Mary

    Henry 94
    Looks like the PSF media monitors are out in force today.Have you been given the job of starting distracting personal squables on this board?
    Is this your little role in the PSF media spin?.
    Does Gerry know of the good work you are doing 🙂

    Or maybe I am giving you too much importance? Maybe you have taken the task of defending the honor of the wealthy PSF leadership upon yourself?
    This is a more frightening thought…..maybe you actually believe what you or writing????? I can understand the boys with the salaries pushing this line but you are hardly one of them?

    PSF leadership are masters at manipulating the media. They are masters at spinning and leaking to the enemy behind the backs of their members and then having the hypocrisy to refer to the “establishment / enemy” media.

    What we saw yesterday was stage managed PSF “consultation”. Looks like they played by one set of rules when their friend Tommy from RTE was present and another when the cameras are absent.They will play by an even different set of rules in the coming days when they start pressurising people in their own communities.

  • fuiseoig

    Power never takes a back step – only in the face of more power. Malcolm X, 1965

    Maidin Mhaith Henry,

    How’s that prostrate holding out a shean athair? Many trips to the toilet over night there?

    Thank you for your reply. For me the crux of the issue here centers on who holds power and influence in this part of Ireland? What are the means of maintaining that power? How is it upheld and by whom? What measures is the state prepared to take to protect and preserve that power? Would it, for example, conspire to with its agencies to actively kill and maim its citizens?

    In my mind the answers to these questions are clear. The british establishment hold the real power and influence in the north of Ireland.

    Presently they administer their power by direct rule. Their influence is underwritten and enforced by the NIO, the civil service, the courts, the unaccountable DPP and the ministries of state in London.

    In addition the British military, MI6/MI5 and the PSNI are the hammer claw of the state to which Sinn Féin after years of repression now recommend we support thereby colluding in our own oppression.

    British power and might here is upheld by evil, corrupt and forceful means at all costs. And yes clearly as demonstrated today by their own investigations in Op Ballast they will not hesitate to kill and maim their own citizens.

    We are often asked for an alternative to the present Sinn Féin peace strategy?

    I say one option, our only feasible option in the long term, is revolt !!! Up to and including including armed revolt.

    Accept no negotiations, no concessions, no offers of illusionary trappings of power, no bending the knee in an internal “interim” settlement. Accept nothing short of a declaration of intent by the british establishment to withdraw from Ireland.

    With a secret cadre of professional full time political soldiers organised into small impenetrable autonomous active service units there can be an intelligence led, precise, low intensity yet high impact armed campaign to render over time (decades?) the British presence here untenable.

    In a new dispensation, faced with the real politic of a Britless Ireland, Unionists and Loyalists will undoubtedly act in their own self interest (havent they always?) to secure their best social, cultural and economic interests in an all Ireland settlement.

    Moral authority? 1916 Proclamation … Sin é

    Is mise
    Fuiseog

  • Rory (South Derry)

    Aontroim

    Spike organises all security around these events -He always has – I know we used to do it for him when called u!

    Who are you to call Lawrence ONeill a man with morals, principals and honesty!

    Unlike the Provo Mafia with there new found riches Lawrence stands his ground on the Issue of policing and does not get drawn into the Brit net!

    As for egos the provos could re-write the book on them and Lawrence ONeill you will find out in the next few days was one of those people threatened by your masters.

    I don’t need to wake up and smell anything as i am wide aware smelling provo bullshit!

    And as for being led up the garden path – give me abreak you little lackey!

    Ps:- Not angry just patronised!

  • Realist

    Fizzyog:
    ‘In a new dispensation, faced with the real politic of a Britless Ireland, Unionists and Loyalists will undoubtedly act in their own self interest (havent they always?) to secure their best social, cultural and economic interests in an all Ireland settlement. ‘

    Or more likely based on past experience they will collude with the Brits to murder lots of innocent Catholics and the Brits will infiltrate this new wave terrorist movement you describe and bring it too to its knees.

    But hey whats 30 years of wasted lives and deaths?

  • Mary

    Aontroim

    “The truth be told – Lawrence has kept his head down for 20 years while he ran his business in Ballymena. He only joined again in 2005 when he was asked to stand for election! Poor Lawrence. ”

    How typical of PSF. No matter what a man or woman does for the party, no matter what jail time or other other suffering they endure. As soon as they cross the party line they are immediately ridiculed and portrayed as useless fools. PSF leadership have no concept of loyalty to individual people. They cast people aside like worn shoes. Think for a moment of the people in your own community who have been used and then disgarded. Think perhaps how the Balcolm street siege prisoners were used at the ard feis, and havent heard from the PSF leadership since.I presume they are lining up some guillible members of dead IRA members families for this ard feis.

    Thank you Aontroim for reminding us again of this.

  • mickhall

    Mary
    Thank you for reminding us about the sheer nastiness of the Adam-sites, a few years ago a former blanket-man told me that the Adam-site leadership should be opposed at every pass, as they have a totalitarian mindset, I took it with a pinch of salt putting it down to political differences.

    In the last few weeks I have changed my mind somewhat, as under Adams I am not so sure that the shinners are fit for government. Take the following quote from this thread.

    “It wasn’t easy for SF to come into the republican heart of East Tyrone and sell this motion to the people but I feel that the vast majority of republicans support SF on their stance on the policing issue.”

    Now if what the scribe says is true and it is not easy for SF’s leadership to come into one of its core support bases, what the hell has been going on within SF, for a leadership to become so disentangled from its core support base speaks volumes about its current political position. As to does the behavior of Martin McGuinness which Rory mentioned with such understandable fury.

    As to the meeting that this thread is based on I am beginning to wonder if any shinners were present let alone dissidents 😉 for bar a daft comment about G McG calling a woman by her married name they have not told us how the meeting went, prefering to turn their fire of Rory in the shoot the messenger tradition. Although to be fair they did remind us that Gerry Adams is still going around demanding of the dissidents that they come up with an alternative to accepting policing.

    Knock Knock Mr Adams, not accepting policing is an alternative to accepting policing, they are direct opposites ‘get a grip mate’ as Steve Irwin’s dad used to say to his son.

    Finally I agree with fuiseoig analysis of Henry’s position, and in truth it is much the same as Gerry Adam’s. The difference between the two men is that Henry takes responsibility for his politics whereas Gerry Adams tries to hide his behind half truths and sleight of hand politics.

    Mr Adams has had one constant throughout his career and it is not to be branded as a stick. Indeed men have been brought up to Belfast to be bollocked for implying otherwise. I have often wondered why he and his minders have been so sensitive on this issue and with the SF policing deal out in the open it becomes obvious, his politics tale-end the sticks completely. Which is yet another reason to wonder why he encouraged people to fight a war.

  • Garibaldy

    Mick Hall,

    Surely the proper comparison with Adams is Devalera. I don’t see how you can on the one hand say that Adams has sold out socialism etc then on the other say his politics are the same as The WP. Adams is a green populist. So was Dev, so is Bertie.

  • mickhall

    Garibadly

    I take your point in defending the WP, but of course the majority of the WP left that organization and went on to merge with the ILP and we know where that led to. So I feel it is fair to call Adams a son of Stick’s. It is interesting that it is said that Mr Adams took his time in deciding whether to join the new organization which became the Provos or stay with Goulding’s Officials.

    CR

  • parcifal

    let’s all have a go at Henry, as we haven’t an arguement, and any shinner will do.
    Prams, rattles and soothers.
    All we can do is offer you the potty; doing the pooh is up to you.

  • jone

    To clarify on the TV cameras point; there was a BBC crew at Toome who conducted interviews outside – the meeting voted against them being allowed to film the Q&A .

    At Galbally the meeting voted in favour of the RTE being allowed to stay for the Q&A.

  • Thomas D

    A Britless Ireland, is further away than ever, Unionists and Loyalists who would have been liberal in the late 60s and early 70s to an all Ireland are now all hard line. That’s what Gerry and Marty have achieved for us. Now they’re going to sell us out for a piece of personal power and a lot of ££££. . They too will undoubtedly act in their own self interest (haven’t they always?)

  • east tyrone remembers

    I was at Galbally and saw the farcical SF set up -all the “boys” like badger and Arthurs at the front supporting the SF stance on police, I wonder will they give up thier wee rackets like diesel smuggling and tax fraud when they accept policing? I know that Gerry McGeough running in the elections has them running scared- so much so that badger/vodka mallon is slinking of to new zealand for a month (wonder how he is paying for that???)Gerry mcGeough scares the socks of them in Tyrone because his integrity can not be questioned unlike 99% of the shinners…

  • Tir Eoghain Gael

    I was at the meeting in Galbally and Gerry McGeough had no alternative stratgey to the one put forward by SF and the people there recognised that. He was given the chance to put forward his views and he side stepped the issue. When he did speak he came across as someone who has an axe to grind with the SF leadership, everyone applauded the fact that he was an IRA volunteer but there was not a cheep from the crowd when he said he was sick to the pit of his stomach at the stance of the SF leadership.

  • mickhall

    McGeough has a clear alternative to Mr Adams on policing and it is to say no, you are wrong about supporting the PSNI and accepting the writ of the UK justice system in Ireland. Now Tir Eoghain Gael and those he supports may not agree with this, but it is an alternative and a pretty blunt one at that for what McG is saying is what republicans have said for generations.

    All this carping about grand strategies is nothing more that neo-liberal speak to make the gullible believe they are party to some great, well thought out plan, when as the McCartney murder proved nothing could be further from the truth.

    SF leaders like almost all minor party politicians make most of their decisions on the hoof, events dictate their decisions, rarely is it the other way around as they simply do not have the resources, so less of the pompous bull shit may help us all move forward a bit more constructively.

    Tir Eoghain Gael writes as if it is some sort of revelation that Gerry McGeough has an axe to grind with the SF leadership, well of course he has a ‘political’ axe to grind; and he would be the first to admit it and indeed that is exactly what McGeough is doing by speaking at public meetings and considering to stand against SF in an election.

    It is not a matter of a personal but a political difference that McGeough has with SF leaders. It seems that some members of SF are so used to sneaking about bad mouthing former comrades and doing them down, that when a Republican like McGeough comes along and stands up in a public place saying this is what I believe take it or leave. The shinners are knocked sideways and the best they can do is personalize the differences.

    Why not argue through the political differences and leave the axes in the shed alongside the grand strategies.

  • lib2016

    The future direction of politics has been decided on by the Irish people when they backed the GFA and working within the existing institutions. This is an argument about tactics, not principles.

    Your point about personalty assasination is correct but puzzling. It is not the SF side which has continually resorted to accusations of personal profiteering.

  • Henry94

    Dear Mary

    If your posts are going to consist only of personal attacks please don’t address them to me as I have no interest in debate at the Jade Goody level

    tks

    H94

  • Mary

    Henry94

    Two quotes from your recent postings

    1. “f you are willing to act like a gurrier”
    2. “debate at the Jade Goody level”

    As readers can see, you are well up to speed in name calling. This is typical of PSF. Another example is when PSF constantly leak and spin information to the media. Then having the hypocrisy to accuse their opponents of speaking to the “establishment media”

    Come on Henry94, play the ball & stop rolling around on the ground pretending that you have been fouled. There are serious issues to be discussed here. Come on, step up to the mark.

  • Henry94

    Mary

    The act like a gurrier remark was a response to a call to treat people like traitors and I stand over it.

    But on reflection I withdraw my insult to Jade Goody.

  • seabhac siulach

    “The future direction of politics has been decided on by the Irish people when they backed the GFA and working within the existing institutions. This is an argument about tactics, not principles.”

    And, apparently, one of those ‘tactics’ is to hand executive power in Ireland to Unionists, at a time when they are fragmented (RUC gone, RIR gone, UUP shrunken, Orange order shrinking, etc.) and essentially powerless. In what sense, does handing Unionists executive power further the cause of unity, when the aim surely is to defeat the philosophy of unionism not hand it power at a historical moment of weakness. Why, we could ask, does Provo Sinn Fein (PSF), a 32 county party, as they continually point out, need Stormont…when by denying Unionists a platform there and pushing for power in Dublin they could do more for Irish unity. At Irish-British govt. level is where the real north-south bodies, strategy, etc., should be agreed, etc., not in a talking shop for unionist egos in Stormont. I repeat, by agreeing to recognise the police, to take their place at the side of unionists and doing the Brits job in the six counties, how are PSF furthering the cause of unity?

  • Henry94

    seabhac siulach

    Defeating the philosophy of unionism is not the same as defeating the unionists. Nor is it a case of handing power to them. It is getting them to share power. I’m not sure people understand what a huge blow that is to the basis for the existence of the NI state.

    If you take away discrimination and unionist control then they are reduced to arguing, like the UUP at the last election, for fish ‘n’ chips and other old-fashioned notions of Britishness in order to make a case for the union.

    In fact there will be no political or economic case for the union as powers get transferred. There will be only sentimental attachment and fear.

    I don’t think sentimental attachment can stand against economic and social reality. And we can address their fears if we want to. I think we should.

    We have seen in Scotland how devolution undermined the union. We have seen in Ireland how the provisions of the treaty were whittled away quite quickly. All bar one.

    If I was a unionist I wouldn’t want devolution for all those reasons. It is only the stick of Plan B that is prodding them forward. They and the British both know where this is all leading.

  • seabhac siulach

    Henry94

    “If you take away discrimination and unionist control then they are reduced to arguing, like the UUP at the last election, for fish ‘n’ chips and other old-fashioned notions of Britishness in order to make a case for the union.”

    The point is, you are not taking away unionist control, but instead seeking to share it with them…an important difference. Unionists will not need to make a ‘case for the union’ as they will already be safely in that union, sitting at the head of a devolved parliament within that union. They will have achieved their long term strategy, the restoration of Stormont, headed by unionism and within the Union.

    “In fact there will be no political or economic case for the union as powers get transferred. There will be only sentimental attachment and fear.”

    Who can say what political case there may be for union in a few years time, e.g., with Gordon Brown the Unionist as PM in London…who knows maybe unionists are left holding the balance of power in Westminster? As for the economic case, the six counties is dependant on money from London and is likely to be for the foreseeable future, despite increasing economic support for the six counties from the 26 counties. The problem is, we are putting in place political structures that are liable to remain no matter what the ensuing economic conditions may be. We may end up with a prosperous island, but with it still divided. Perhaps this is unimportant if people are prosperous, north and south, but this will not be republicanism which demands the governance of the island without the control of the Brit. govt., and through it, the Crown of England.

    “We have seen in Scotland how devolution undermined the union. We have seen in Ireland how the provisions of the treaty were whittled away quite quickly. All bar one.”

    Yes, but you forget that it was DeValera, a dissident in the modern parlance, who came into the southern ‘Dail’ after 10 years on the outside, that whittled away most/all of the treaty provisions in his 1937 constitution. In the present circumstances PSF are akin to Cumann na nGaedheal, meekly accepting the ‘treaty’ provided by the Brits, lock, stock and barrel. Where is the dissident DeValera to be found that will whittle away the present agreement? There is no sign of such a personality in the present PSF leadership. Does Mary Lou strike you as this person, for example? Hardly…
    BTW, this 1937 constitution also introduced the original Articles 2&3, sold for a song under the present process.

    “If I was a unionist I wouldn’t want devolution for all those reasons. It is only the stick of Plan B that is prodding them forward. They and the British both know where this is all leading. ”

    Do they? If so, they are pulling a fast one on their electorates who may not be very forgiving long term. Are we to think that loyalists, for example, are sleepwalking into something that diminishes the union? This last piece of analysis of yours seems like wishful thinking, nothing in the attitudes of unionists would make me inclined to agree with you. In fact, in neither of the examples you give will British sovereignty over the six counties be changed. We are told that this will only take place with the consent of the majority in the six counties. If unionists are installed in Stormont, when will this consent ever be given, comfortable as they will be in their positions of power? To achieve unity, this ‘consent’, it would be of greater use to deny unionism executive power, to show that their philosophy is impotent. Only by reducing unionism to this impotence will unionists see that maintaining the union is clearly not in their interests.

  • Henry94

    seabhac siulach

    Yes, but you forget that it was DeValera, a dissident in the modern parlance, who came into the southern ‘Dail’ after 10 years on the outside, that whittled away most/all of the treaty provisions in his 1937 constitution.

    DeValera proposed to a Sinn Fein Ard Fheis that they enter the Dail. He lost the vote and went on to found Fianna Fail, entered the Dail, took the oath then abolished it. Sinn Fein voted to enter the Dail 60 years later. The dissidents who walked out then are still refusing to enter the Dail.

    How you can claim DeValera for the dissidents is beyond me.

    In fact, in neither of the examples you give will British sovereignty over the six counties be changed. We are told that this will only take place with the consent of the majority in the six counties.

    That is the consent principle and that is what the Irish people have voted for by a landslide. To win that majority we have to engage with unionism and persuade enough of them that their best future lies in unity with the rest of the people of Ireland.

    That is our task.

  • seabhac siulach

    “DeValera proposed to a Sinn Fein Ard Fheis that they enter the Dail. He lost the vote and went on to found Fianna Fail, entered the Dail, took the oath then abolished it. Sinn Fein voted to enter the Dail 60 years later. The dissidents who walked out then are still refusing to enter the Dail.

    How you can claim DeValera for the dissidents is beyond me”

    He did not accept the original treaty…so in the modern parlance he was a ‘dissident’, although in reality it was the free staters who were the dissenters from the republican path. It does not matter what he subsequently did, he was originally a dissident…one of the ‘legion of the rearguard’. If later, for political purposes he wished to bend principle and enter the Free State assembly that does not mean that he was not the equivalent of a modern day dissenter between 1922-1932 (when Fianna Fail entered the 26 county assembly).

    In any case, this analogy is not important to the points I originally made…

    BTW the dissidents that walked out in 1986 do not refer to themselves as dissidents either. To them, the provos are the dissidents…but then to get into this discussion is almost to be discussing secular theology…

    “To win that majority we have to engage with unionism and persuade enough of them that their best future lies in unity with the rest of the people of Ireland.”

    No reason why engaging with them requires sharing political power with them in a semi-permanent majority. In politics, those with a different political viewpoint are rarely (ever?) persuaded to change them…the most that can be done is vote them out of office or vote for someone else or force them to concede. High level politics is not some sedate debating society, where one can ,through argument, change opinions. How will that even be possible in the bizarre power sharing process in Stormont? The structures will encourage moreover the present divisions to remain, lucrative as they are to all involved.

  • Aontroim

    Rory (South Doire)

    I fear you do not have realistic working-class politics. While you dream of your utopia Republic, how will your community live day-to-day? Empower your community, empower ourselves to make changes. You must have little faith in your own ability to make CHANGES.

    Btw, you have still not answered my question: Why did Lawrence O’Neill – who shouted from the roof-tops that he wanted a live tv debate with gerry A on policing – didn’t even have the guts to go into the meeting infront of 400 people to voice his opposition, in the way others done in Toome. It is blatantly obvious that Lawrence is obsessed with the media and that was the only reason he stood outside – to try and get an interview!

    If you have conviction and confidence in your argument you should not be afraid to confront those who express a different opinion.

    please give me a credible response