Let’s talk about you and me

Gerry Adams has adopted a new approach to the “micro-organisations” and offered to meet with the leaderships of the CIRA, RIRA and INLA to convince them of the merits of Sinn Fein’s approach. PS I am looking feedback on my blogging here.

  • J Kelly

    Good move i hope this is an ongoing debate rather than a one off intervention.

  • Yokel

    We are more oppressed than you….

    No you arent..

    Yes we are (waves finger) …

    Hey you threatening us?

    No, you are threatening us…

    No we aren’t, stop claiming that….whatabout..

    Whatabout what? Sure whatabout……..

    Here hold on, whatabout…

    Oh yeah, I’ll you raise that whatabout…

    I think there should be a Top Trumps game especially for the republican factions..

  • Cormac

    These micro-organisations (and some of the not-so-micro organisations…) are riddled with informers. Armed actions at this stage will only serve to put more young people in prison.

    They may as well save themselves the hassle of organising an armed campaign, and just conduct an annual symbolic attack which achieves nothing, followed by the volunteers involved surrendering to the PSNI and getting incarcerated for a few decades. Saves time and effort, and will have the same result.

    I have yet to hear from any of these groups how their strategy will lead to a United Ireland.

    Still waiting…

  • to convince them of the merits of Sinn Fein’s approach.

    Forget the political rhetoric Gerry, a pay is what is required, and a big one at that !!

  • Token Dissent

    Yeah Art Hostage, clearly the only way forward is to form a league table for the terorist groupings. This would enable the NIO to calulate the size of bride each group need to faciliate their move towards community work. LVF and INLA fighting for a top 5 slot?

    I agree with Rusty that it is counter-productive of Adams to try and limit the debate to secret talks. But from Adams’ point of view it allows him to play the brave peacemaker role, while limiting the number of times he has to face old comrades calling him a sell-out.

  • mickhall

    He is a cheeky sod Adams, think about this statement, for a start INLA’s ceasefire has held far better than that of the PIRA, do I need to go into details?

    Secondly he goes on about no mandate, When Gerry was blowing up half of Belfast, SFs membership could have just about got into a phone box, whilst those who voted for them filled the adjoining box.

    He also understands that a majority of those who are against his deal on accepting the UK justice system support the ending of the arm struggle. Can you believe the front of this man, he is attempting to smear other republicans as terrorists, felon setting already and the Ard Fheis has not even voted yet.

  • The World’s Gone Mad

    ‘This would enable the NIO to calulate the size of bride each group need to faciliate their move towards community work’

    Well, if all else has failed, its time to go left-field. Bring in Ting Tong Macadangdang and a few other consorts to keep the boys happy and pre-occupied.

  • seabhac siúlach

    Is this new found love of dialogue a result of the well attended meeting in Derry last night? A strange coincidence if not. Is he now trying his own version of ‘divide and conquer’?

    I wouldn’t imagine he will have much luck with many of these organisations, one of which in fact considers him a traitor whose word cannot be trusted (from, oh about the time of the 1986 Ard Fheis or before…)

    “Armed struggle was never a republican principle. It was an option of last resort in the absence of any other alternative,” Mr Adams claimed.”

    Taking seats in partitionist assemblies under British govt. control and funding, where British govt. policies will be enacted, was also strangely never a republican principle…

    He presents his argument as a simple zero sum game…apparently either one is for him or one is in favour of ‘armed struggle’. That is nonsense. There is a space for a non-violent republican party that refuses to exercise executive office in British controlled and funded parliaments, that refuses to prop up the rotting facade of the six counties…

    “But, there is now an alternative. There is a peaceful way to achieve political change, equality, justice and ultimately Irish freedom.”

    Note that he does not say that there is a peaceful way to achieve Irish unity or the 32 county Irish socialist republic…only a vague aspiration to ultimate(?) Irish freedom (whatever that is)…
    The vague, woolly language of a politician.
    But then, wasn’t there also an alternative back in the days of Sunningdale, Mr Adams?

  • Rob

    This is Adams lumping the armed campaigns of the RIRA, CIRA etc together with the anti-policing republicans set to stand against SF in the election in order to damage them. This is not a friendly jesture.

  • willie gallagher

    Given the fact that there has been a long established point of contact between the PRM and INLA which has not been utilised in this case then it would be fair to question Adams’s sincerity in publicly calling for a meeting with the INLA leadership. Also given the fact that membership of the INLA carries a ten year prison sentence and that Adams will be calling on all republcans to co-operate with the PSNI then I believe the INLA should tell Adams to fuck off just in case he decides to co-operate with the PSNI on those he has publicly called to meet.

  • Pat

    Simply PR from Gerry. He is saying one thing for the tv cameras and something entirely different on the ground.

    The reality is that those opposing Gerry are in for a very rough ride.Himself and his politbureau will fight this very dirty.

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    ‘I believe the INLA should tell Adams to fuck off just in case he decides to co-operate with the PSNI on those he has publicly called to meet.’

    There we have the level of debate that is going to take us onwards and upwards to the 32 county socialst workers republic.
    A micro group with a micro amount of brain cells.

    Adams is wrong to call for a debate with these people, they represent no one. When they have tested their mandate in an honest and forthright manner (no hiding behind grannies) then they are worthy of being recognised.

    Until then I would let them rot amongst their self pitying drivel. No one really cares what they think.

  • Joe

    “These micro-organisations (and some of the not-so-micro organisations…) are riddled with informers.”

    And Provisional SF are not riddled with informers? ?? Both their party secretary and their head of internal security were outed as informers. Where have you been living?

    There is suspicion that there is at least one big provisional SF leadership figure yet to be outed as an informer.

    As regards ” Armed actions at this stage will only serve to put more young people in prison.”, surely this is what the provisional movement have been doing under Mr Adams leadership

  • gerry

    Clonard monastery where the talks are to be held is much bigger than the original venue of the devinish arms hotel. Obviously something has sunk in about this debate, could it be that perhaps those dissenting voices that were at one time only a trickle are now a flood of voices, and that this leadership is now for the first time ANSWERABLE to their base, as to where it is they are going and what they are about. I believe that sf are about making NI are warmer place for catholics and that a UI will not be achieved with their policies. The irish news this morning is full of jim gibney and a huge article by adams outlining their position. Now they are organising along with clonard redemptorists to get people round to their point of view. the last time martin mcguinness was in clonard some of the nuns and people there took him to task on abortion, he couldn’t give a straight answer, now these are the same people who sniped at Gerry McGeough about his catholicism, aligning themselves with the church in order to get into power to administer brit rule.

    But sf as a party, will do anything what ever it takes, to sell the ruc to the catholic people. If I were one of these groupings I’d ask the SF president, do you intend to ask people to inform on their neighbours? Will you stand back as the ruc beat people back on to the pavements if the parades commission decide to allow the orange order down garvaghy road or the springfield road?
    Will you demand, and refuse to hold and AF until ian paisley apologises to the Reavey family? Are you going to sell out the families of the murdered to allow a few OTR’s back? How does embracing the ruc, support for the n ireland courts and criminal justice system fit with republican credentials? What won’t they do for power in stormont?

  • Sean

    What kind of “meeting” did Gerry Adams and his party give to Joseph O’Connor? SF have been policing the smaller republican groups on behalf of the brits for years.

  • Cormac

    “These micro-organisations (and some of the not-so-micro organisations…) are riddled with informers.”

    And Provisional SF are not riddled with informers? ?? Both their party secretary and their head of internal security were outed as informers. Where have you been living?

    The PRM are one of the ‘not-so-micro organizations’ I was referring to. I thought that was obvious? Maybe not.


    As regards “ Armed actions at this stage will only serve to put more young people in prison.”, surely this is what the provisional movement have been doing under Mr Adams leadership

    Not sure what you’re getting at here… since the ceasefires, there are fewer people going to prison, no?

  • danny

    Clonard monastery…..so the old establishment (the church) are now teaming up with new establishment (SF). One thing you can be sure of is that the interest of working class people will not be protected by either of these establishment forces.

    I get nervous when I see political parties and the church getting into bed together. But then again I suppose its a case of “any port in a storm” for a discredited church & a political party on the ropes.

  • DK

    Couple of questions from a non-Republican struggling to understand:

    1. Why are dissident Republican’s anti-policing?

    2. How can the police be further reformed to meet the point at which they are acceptable to dissident Republicans?

  • gerry

    DK 1) Because the police are the legal arm of the state, and your second answer then follows on, the state is British and is therefore unacceptable to republicans. Support for policing and the courts is tantamount to recognising britain in ireland. Do you remember IRA men used to not recognise the courts, this is what was behind that. Hope this answers, if not someone more qualified than I may be to tease things out better.

    regards.

  • seabhac siúlach

    “1. Why are dissident Republican’s anti-policing?

    2. How can the police be further reformed to meet the point at which they are acceptable to dissident Republicans? ”

    Not sure I can speak for ‘dissident’ republicans…but in answer to point no.1 above, I would say that no one is actually anti-policing (no one likes lawlessness). It is accepted in most areas in a de facto way, in fact, already. I imagine that there are areas, though, that have suffered police brutality, which are not willing to accept the police in any way. Even in these areas, there is a tacit acceptance of the police, as the only law enforcement available (in the absence of punishment attacks). The real point is whether one accepts the police in a de jure way, as being the lawful administrators of policing powers in the state. This question is related to the wider justice/law issue, i.e., accepting that British law is paramount in Ireland or has the right to be. How can one accept ‘policing’ if one does not recognise the validity of Britain’s laws in Ireland. In answer to point no.2, my answer to this would be that it can never be accepted ,de-jure, while Britain remains as the sole administrative power in the six counties.

    Well, that is my ‘thinking’ on the matter…

  • BeardyBoy

    In my view SF has made a mess – but that is all – they should not be castigated so harshly – they should be told to rethink.

    To go further than that is not fair.

    We do need a more traditionalist nationalist party as I believe that SF is too much Connolly and not enough Pearce

  • Valenciano

    “he goes on about no mandate, When Gerry was blowing up half of Belfast, SFs membership could have just about got into a phone box, whilst those who voted for them filled the adjoining box.”

    Actually from what I’ve heard from those in the know Mr A. was very much an armchair terrorist who let others do the dirty work but it’s all a moot point and speculation.

    The point about Sinn Feins votes just isn’t quite right though because since their modern outcoming in 1982 they’ve always polled at least 10% of the overall vote and 35% of the Nationalist electorate. IRSP have achieved nothing other than 2 councillors elected on a hunger strike sympathy vote in 1981 neither of whom managed to stay the full council term.

    I take your point apart from that though. I recall in the late 80s when Seamus Lynch suggested that catholics should co-operate with the RUC on ordinary crimes SF whipped up a storm against him that cost him his council seat in 1993. Now we see the metamorphasis from SF/IRA to SF/RUC. As many have asked what the hell was the last 30 years about as much of what they have now was on offer at the time of Sunningdale.

  • DK on Jan 18, 2007 @ 01:45 PM wrote “
    1. Why are dissident Republican’s anti-policing?
    2. How can the police be further reformed to meet the point at which they are acceptable to dissident Republicans? “

    1.I’ve a feeling that most people aren’t anti policing as everyone looks for a civilized society. I think that most republicans and a lot of nationalists are anti PSNI as it’s too similar to the RUC. The discredited RUC seems to have a new name and a new change of clothes. The Patten recommendations don’t seem to have been complete introduced. While there is an ombudswoman reviewing the PSNI there seems to be an escalation of MI5’s presence in NI and this ‘un-governed’ service seem to be recruiting many ex–RUC into their James Bond ranks.

    2.Further reformed… I don’t know. However, they should be reformed in the manner as originally agreed via the Pattern reforms. These should be fully implemented. Likewise we should expect the Judge Corry recommdations for a fully independant and open inquiry into the Pat Finucane murder.

    I don’t think that the RUC should have been revised into the PSNI…. I think it should have been disbanded a few years ago and a new force started. In the interim there should have been a UN or EU manged force in place. This could have been run in co ordination with the numerous necessary inqueries. The books / records / files would have been opened for all to see in the same manner as the East Germany Stasi’s when ‘The Wall’ came down. What’s the worse that could have happened… a large bomb might have gone off without the RUC / PSNI being able to prevent it (as opposed to Omagh) or too many feathers might have been ruffled regarding spies (as opposed to D. Donaldson, Scap, Haddock)

  • DK

    Gerry/SS – thanks for the answers, they help. Can I follow on with another: If the state ceased to be British (e.g. all powers devolved to the local assembly), would the police become acceptable? Or would there be a qualifier (e.g. no Unionists allowed to control them, there must be a united Ireland first, etc.)?

    anonymous – all the Patten recommendations are being implemented (except 2 – can’t remember what they are, but one was to do with police being freed up from desk jobs). And Sinn Fein seem to have got assurances that MI5 and the PSNI are to be distinct.

  • gerry

    Dk powers being devolved to the local administration does not make them northern irish, the state is still british. stormont is a partitionist assembly, a british institution. This part of the island is still british owned, not Irish no matter how much we run things ourselves. this is devoloution like scotland or wales. the problem remains.

  • mickhall

    DK,

    I feel if you were to ask why the UK State and the Unionists are so insistent that SF recognize and take responsibility for the PSNI and the justice system in the north you would find your answer. If it were just a case of expecting SF to accept the reality on the ground it would not be a problem, but it is not. It is demanded of SF that they sign up for policing and justice. Which incidentally, as far as I am aware is something no political party elsewhere in the UK has to do.

  • Aaron McDaid

    I have to laugh at this constant reference to disorganised ‘micro-organisations’ and so on. If disorganised republicans (and they are a varied bunch of course) can cause this much stress to SF, then imagine what they could do if they were organised! SF need to be honest that there are a lot of serious people who disagree with SF (many are still pro-ceasefire of course). This offer of a meeting seems to be such a gesture of honesty.

  • DK

    What about an independent NI? Would the police be acceptable in that situation?

    Or do we have to force ourselves on Dublin?

  • “…have got assurances that MI5 and the PSNI are to be distinct.”

    HHmmm, that’s not going to make me feel any better. It’s not like Westminster has ever been forthcoming in divulging information regarding their crimes like the Dub-Monaghan bombings, MI5 spying activity in RoI, incursions, bank robberies and/or murder in RoI. Blair doesn’t even answer his friend Bertie’s calls when asking for info regarding the Dub-Monaghan bombs.

    Secondly, “the new and improved MI5” seems to have transformed the ol’ RUC Special Branch into higher paid, better funded, more loosely controlled James Bonds. This was the same ol’ Special Branch who did all the dirty, underhand work that gave the RUC it’s bad name… it wasn’t the regular uniformed flat foot who was running ‘any taig will do’ hit-men as informers. It wasn’t an ol’ PC Plod who was given the info about Omagh and deliberately let it slide for God-knows-what-reason. Now these SB’ers will be equipped by Q and reporting to M (Dame Julie Dench) … and this is good policing and good for the people of NI ?!?!

    If Gerry and Co have got assurances … I still have yet to be convinced. I think there should be a cathartic change in “Justice and Policing” at the highest levels more so than those PC Plods in uniform.

    My line is… The B-Specials were loyalist thugs in uniform employed to give wasters an income, keep the croppies down and enforce Unionist rule. They became the UDR which was discredited by their connection with the loyalist death squads. After the Anglo Irish Agree these were shunted into the RIR which after the GFA have been deservedly (after over 30 years since the B-Specials) been disbanded. At the same time the RUC plods worked hand in hand with the B-Specials, UDR, British Army & SAS. The Special Branch were hand in hand with the FRU and MI5 (witness the helicopter crash at Mull of Kintyre) The FRU were akin to a S. American death squad so nowadays we have this Spec Branch merging into the expanding MI5… give me a break… it’s a joke but no one (nationalist) is (should be) laughing.

    The reforms are cosmetic only… the problems are still there, less visible & therefore possibly more dangerous.

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    AmcD,

    I can assure you that these micro groups aren’t causing any stress. They have finally unveiled themselves and the public will decide. The fact that none of the actual micro group members are putting themselves forward for election, obviously Willie Gallagher et al are too busy, shows the bankruptcy of these people. maybe he is still party building.

    I also look forward to them challenging in the next 26 county election, or are they like the SDLP trapped in a partitionist mindest?

  • willie gallagher

    Now, now, Pat, your’e getting a wee bit tetchy. Perhap you can use your macro-brain cells and enlighten all of us with micro-brain cells on how PSF’s reformist strategy of endorsing and legitamising the PSNI and Diplock courts etc leads us to a United Ireland. Don’t be telling us we need policing and all that bull. Be honest and admit this ssue has nothing to do with the ‘need for proper policing’but more to do with your leadership captulating to the DUP, again, in exchange for percieved power-sharing.

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    willie,

    if you are as informed on the debate as you allege then you will be aware chapter and verse on the SF position, unless you are arguing from a position of ignorance, a not uncommon trait among the Irps. Though you probably couldn’t concentrate that much on policy after Declan Kearney wiped the floor with you at Conway Mill.

    Better off getting a Granny to do the heavy work for you.

  • willie gallagher

    Pat, you really are tetchy today. Your own members are obviously finding it difficult to understand your leadership’s strategy so what chance do we, with micro-brain cells, have of understanding it. We need people like you with macro-brain cells to enlighten us. Leave out the Orwellian (or for that matter Declan Kearney) jingo in which truth is lies and lies is truth etc.

  • MICKYBRADY

    good to see the elitist (we know everything)psf,letting the old balaclava slip,(our declan is smarter than you)and our gerry is weally weally smart too,

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    willie,

    with self confessed micro brain cells it would therefore be pointless in trying to educate you.

    Wow, you mentioned Orwellian, you have just proven your socialist credentials (take a bow and a red star), though spoiled it a bit ny not mentioning the dispossessed and those of no property etc etc.

  • willie gallagher

    Macro-brains, I’m not surprised at your usual evasions as its more than obvious you are one of the typical President of Lies sheep. The PSF leadership certainly doesn’t come within the parameters of the dispossessed and those of no property etc etc. Try Animal Farm Pat.

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    willie,

    ‘Animal Farm’

    Tom Luby trumped you on that one at The Blanket, you’ve got to be quicker with the cliches and the trite comparisons.
    BTW did it for first year ‘O’ Level at the tender age of 14, interesting to note that the Irps are only now at that stage of development.

    As you are at the juvenile stage of political development you may want to try out a ripping read from some young fella called Marx. Yip, the Irps definitely would appreciate Groucho

  • Shane O’Neill

    Is it my imagination or do most PSF supporters have to resort to attacking on personal a level. I’ve been reading through the Irish Republican News Forum this morning and it has completely amazed me to say the least. It goes from one insult to another toward people of differing views to that of the Provisional RM. I’m also seeing evidence of this coming to light here.

    Pat attacks IRSP, that is understandable as their past hasn’t been all inspiring. But what I can say and give them credit for is the past several years they are trying to develop into a credible Irish Republican grouping. They still stand by their principles of an Irish Socialist Republic, PRM have gone looking middle class vote and have turned their backs on that principle. The IRSP maybe small and are developing from a new beginning, but they are moving in the right direction and are actively working to bring Republican Unity.

    I believe the Dissident Republican grouping including the IRSP are now making ground on unity and I believe this is the only way forward for them. As we see more and more people jumping of the PRM bus there needs to be an alternative for those republicans to gather round.

    As we have seen in the past people like myself have jumped off the bus, but felt there was no credible unity among republicans and therefore slip to the sidelines in disappointment. But with the policing issue being the final straw, it has served as a catalyst to awaken those of us who have been waiting for a united front among Republicans. Conway Mill has been the spark for most of us, Toome the catching of the fire and Derry the PRM retreating and disengaging from meaningful debate among Republicans.

    This united front I hope can be developed from this point. This may be a small step, but as time goes by and more people realise the bus is delivering us up to Britain. Also the young voters realise also that the PSF as a Party are too mainstream and just another SDLP. They will look for a Radical alternative to place their trust in. The Republican support will only grow and the PSF vote will begin to decline. As this goes continues the PSF will become more and more right winged in its search for votes. We’ve already seen how far to the right they have travelled already.

    BTW: We have already seen the new policing powers in action in Lurgan. Republican home wrecked and children’s toys taken away along with newspapers. Collusion highlighted to the world, but still NO ONE WILL BE MADE TO ANSWER. No one ever has answered and no one ever will have to answer and MI5 will only run riot on republican’s.