Adams publishes the wording that was missing…

Gerry Adams with the words he claims the DUP had agreed to say before the new year on policing and justice.From Gerry Adams:

“In the run up to the meeting of the Sinn Féin Ard Chomhairle on December 29th the DUP were given the text of the motion I was putting to the Ard Chomhairle calling a special Ard Fheis on policing.

They said that the required words were in the motion and that if the Ard Chomhairle accepted the motion the DUP would respond to this in Ian Paisley’s New Year statement.

The words given to Sinn Fein were:

‘The DUP has always maintained that it will support devolution of policing and justice if there is sufficient confidence across the community. The words needed are those contained in the Ard Chomhairle motion. Provided Sinn Féin translate into action the commitments contained in that motion, the DUP will accept devolution of policing and justice in the timeframe set out in the St. Andrews Agreement or even before that date.’

This was acceptable to me and I proceeded to the Ard Chomhairle meeting.

The agreed words were never said which is why there is now a crisis in the process.

So the context has been changed completely. The DUP have refused to accept power sharing within the St. Andrews timeframe. The basis of the Ard Chomhairle motion has been removed. We have to find another basis to move
forward. It will be very difficult but I see this as a challenge to be faced and overcome.

Despite these very profound difficulties I stand by my remarks of December 29th. I put the motion on policing to the Ard Chomhairle because it was the right thing to do. It is still the right thing to do. Republicans and nationalists, like all other citizens, have the right to a civic, non partisan and accountable policing service. There is still an urgent need to get the power sharing arrangements in place, with the DUP in the Executive as is their entitlement.

Tomorrow the Ard Chomhairle will have to judge all of these matters in the round. Our objective has to be to find a sustainable way forward.“

,

  • John McIlveen

    Very interesting

    This shines a whole new light on the last few week’s activities.

    For me this obliterates the DUP’s posturing on the policing issue.

    I’d love to know exactly what was said within the DUP when this form of words was revealed and then rejected.

    There are obviously BIG problems ahead for DUP regardless of tomorrow’s Ard C decision. Though bigger problems if Ard C decides to proceed with special Ard Fheis, which i’m sure they will.

    “Mr Paisley, it’s over to you!”

  • Yokel

    ohhh Adam’s has played his joker…and i dont mean Gerry Kelly..

  • kensei

    I also fail to see why the DUP didn’t say it. It’s not incompatible with their position and gives plenty of wiggle room. The temptation to screw SF must have been too much.

  • ingram

    Yokel,

    It will be intersting to see the DUP position on this Adams statement.

    We should all remember one thing though.

    Adams could not lie straight in bed at night! so we must all take his public statements with a large pinch of salt.

    He is a serial liar.

    In contrast the Old man is well known for his simplicity and integrity. He was found to be telling the truth about the target date!

    No doubt were my money would be on this bet.

    Ding Ding

    Martin

  • That’s ad hominem Martin!!-

  • Pól

    It is obvious the problem lies with the DUP. The only way out of this one is for Big Ian to lead his party from the front and stop pandering to the sectarian elements within. The days of saying no and sharing power with the republican people on this island are over.
    Over to you Doc.

  • Yokel

    Mr Ingram

    I would suggest there’s a kernel of reality somewhere on this. I don’t think its a straight fabrication. The question is, how much is bull or intepretation and spin and how much is for real.

    What it maybe reveals is a few things and possibilities for example:

    1. Did the DUP talk direct to SF? Thats a no no in some eyes. This could well cause some interesting conversations at DUP HQ is not everyone knew this was said.

    2. SF seem to have tried a number of angles here to get what they need to go ‘successfully’ (back to perecentages again) through an AF and election. I’m increasingly of the view that the UK gvernment gave them next to bugger of solid concessions in post ST AA talks and thats really been the bigger driver here.

    3. The grassroots are saying they need mre from the DUP and the leadership genuinely does need to get through things ok. What is interesting is that neither goernment has actually said that the DUP did make a definite pledge, either in public (or in private judging by the DUP’s lack of concern in recent days).

    4. This is the blame game for collapse in full steam.

    5. This is a real appeal and things are that desperate.

    I’m sure some could add more possibilities and issues arising from this release.

  • miss fitz

    Mick
    I think Martin makes an interesting point, and one that we should never stray too far from.

    While I think its more accurate to define Adam’s politics as intrinsically ‘political’, in other words, always looking for the best deal, tweaking words, synchronising, strategising, etc etc.

    On the other hand, Paisley over the years, to me at least, appears to be a very straight and direct person with no back doors. He doesnt appear to appreciate the need to nuance, and appears to call a spade a spade and thats that.

    In reality, understanding the ‘styles’ of our political leaders is every bit as important as understanding their positions.

  • Nevin

    “The words given to Sinn Fein were”

    Were the words supplied by the DUP? If so, by whom? If not, who gave them? Perhaps one of those nefarious ‘securocrats’ …..

  • ingram

    Yokel,

    Agreed.

    I am as interested in the DUP response as anyone.

    Forgive me but Adams and the truth are not bedfellows.That said there is a first time for everything.

    Mick,

    quote”That’s ad hominem Martin!!-”

    To the contrary Mick. The man has a long history of telling lies not only to his party and supporters but to the wider community.

    I have put forward both sides of the position BUT I have factored into that analysis established behavour patterns and personal experiences.

    If you think it would help Mick! I could post a long series of Mr Adams lies, just to prove the point?.

    My post was a very reasoned argument.We shall see what the other party to this two dimensional problem have to say before rushing to final judgement.

    Ding Ding

    Martin

  • Yokel

    Nevin

    Are you suggesting the words went through the Chinese Whisper’s filter of No. 10?

  • J Kelly

    Its now over to the DUP and it looks like Gerry and co are hoping for a positive response so that they can carry the Ard C tomorrow.

  • Martin,

    That may be so. But in this case, the content of the document is potentially falsifiable. And, on this site at least, content should be paramount.

  • It is fast becoming evident to all and sundry that Sinn Féin has the negotiating ability of a brick.

    When the SDLP was the biggest nationalist party in the north for three decades, it did the heavy lifting and negotiated such treats as the Sunningdale Agreement, the Anglo-Irish Agreement and the Good Friday Agreement. Since PSF took over the mantle of top dog, it has singularly failed to achieve anything in its negotations. In fact, its efforts have been retrograde for the people of Ireland (most recently exemplified by their vomit-inducing open-armed welcome for the British Secret Service into the north).

    Any nationalist knows that Ian Paisley cannot be trusted on his word when it comes to negotiation- the very fact that Sinn Féin cannot produce evidence that they even got his word, never mind the fact that they based their policing move on such a ‘promise’, merely shows them up as rank amateurs.

    The fact is that PSF has negotiated itself into a corner. The DUP is in a win-win situation: if PSF sign up to policing, the DUP win as they have forced the provos to abandon the very final vestiges of their ‘republicanism’; if PSF pull out and the power-sharing plans go mammaries-up, the DUP still wins as, save for their wish to taste power, they have never had any real desire to share power with taigs (still less provos) anyway, but still have managed to gut PSF with no lasting cost to themselves.

    The provos’ cloak-and-dagger sidedealery is coming back to bite them on the proverbial arse. God knows what else they have negotiated away over tea and cucumber sandwiches with Blair and Hain.

  • ingram

    Mick,

    That is entirely different to ad hominem

    My own position on that is clear, If Mr Adams had enjoyed direct access to the DUP and a physical handover had taken place he would have mentioned same.That was a decision Mr Adams had within his own power to be clear and explicit about the provenance. He chose not to. Hence My reasoned accurate and balanced analysis.

    The chances are it went through the good offices of the NIO/MI5( same thing). That would widen this debate to include the other serial liar. HMG

    We must wait and see.

    Regards.

    Martin

  • Yokel

    El Mat

    There ends the party political broadcast by the SDLP.

    Whilst I can’t be in anyway described as a sympathizer for either Sinn Fein or the DUP.

    For a start:

    1. The SDLP lost its position as the dominant party in NI elections, in short, they lost the battle though there is another round of the electoral fight due, no one beieves that the SDLP will overhaul SF. As interesting as that would be to see, the likelihood is that they won’t should we go to election come May which means you’ve still losing the battle.

    2. I think you doubt some of those in the DUP. You can bet that some dont want to share power, but some do in principle and some know that is nto the 1970’s thats the reality and will buy into it.

  • gerry

    I cannot see why this AC is being held tomorrow. If the motion that was put to the AC a few weeks ago is now null and void then why have a second meeting? To make a new proposal? It’s very difficult to see what if any benefit there is to this AC meeting? The only option open to them is to say, scrub the last motion at the last meeting, here is a new one, lets give the DUP everything they want and wait around and hope they will do the right thing to us. What other option is there?

    On another note, that fellow ingrams behaviour on this site has definitely been found wanting. His ‘ding dings’ are far from funny, take away from debate, and bring down the tone of a fine site. I cannot understand why he can behave in such a manner while the rest of us stick to the rules!! *shakes head*

  • ingram

    Gerry,

    The AC is clearly being held to discuss the “current” position. The AC will have to decide tomorrow whether to call the AF.

    It is make your mind up time for the Shinners.

    In relation to Ding Ding. Two comments.

    1. Which rules exactly would that breach.

    2. It is not meant to be funny,abusive or indeed antagonistic. When it started , I explained CLEARLY that it symbolised a Little Red London Bus.That Bus was waiting patiently within the grounds of Stormont for Sinn Fein. The driver was stood outside waiting for the passengers to arrive for a very circuitous route around the British Criminal Justice System.

    Once the Bus sets off, the bell to the bus will be disenaged.

    Regards.

    Martin

  • Nevin

    Yokel, I think the phrase, ‘The words given to Sinn Fein were’ is key. The words don’t have a DUP ring to them. Perhaps they were compiled by British and/or Irish negotiators.

    Look at the following from p55 of the 1992 Opsahl Report:

    “When a senior member of Sinn Fein spoke to members of their group, the group unanimously agreed afterwards that he was trying to send a message to the British government: ‘We want to get out of violence, but you have to help us.'”

    I’ve identified the group as the Derry Peace and Reconciliation Group and the words in quotation marks are those of PRG, not the SF member. However, you can see how easy it would be for a reporter to attribute them to a member of SF – and for the latter to quickly attribute them to a British government minister/official ….

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    Therefore the DUP did indeed buy into the timeframe of May 2008 if not sooner.

    El Mat,

    How is SF signing up to policing a victory for the DUP?

    Is it not strange for a narrow, post nationalist, 6 county party like the SDLP to harp on about abandoning republicanism?

    If you believe the DUP have never been intersted in power sharing why has this never been reflected publicly by the SDLP? Why not walk away from the whole process is you believed power sharing was unattainable? So in your words the SDLP have been living a lie

  • overhere

    Ingram

    You are right it is not funny but annoying and only makes your arguments look foolish to the point where now when I see the “ding ding” at the end of a message I skip over it.

    On another point when was the last time you were in London as the buses no longer go “ding ding” since we got the bendy buses.

  • Yokel

    Maybe with these new funky buses then it should be a booming digitized voice saying

    ‘The bus is reversing, the bus is reversing’

  • Bob Wilson

    BBC have ignored the most important part of Adam’s Statement:

    “Despite these very profound difficulties I stand by my remarks of December 29th. I put the motion on policing to the Ard Chomhairle because it was the right thing to do. It is still the right thing to do.”

    Game still on surely?

  • Yokel

    I’m guessing so but is Gerry pushing a track here partly of his own views that may not be completly shared by evryone at the SF top table?

  • ingram

    Overhere.

    To help you with your education here is a working example of a working Red London Bus.I was on one last week Know all.Whats more I rang the bell.

    http://www.bigbustours.com/

    always pleased to help.

    Ding Ding.

    Back to serious business.

    Bob,

    Good point.

    It is on Ok. No change.

    The Adams release of the so called DUP document today was it appears for internal consumption. The sheep want to believe something.

    Of course Adams can with some clarity provide the provenance of the document prior to A/C? but of course he wont.

    Over to you Gerry.

    Regards.

    Martin

  • overhere

    LOL that would only sound like the robot in Lost in Space “danger will robinson, danger danger”

  • overhere

    Ah I see Martin

    You were doing the tourist thing then, were you bet that cost more than £1.00
    http://www.bigbustours.com/

    Sean

  • miss fitz

    It may be Stockholm syndrome, but I am going to defend Ingram again.

    I believe and have believed for some time that this is the end game in many ways for a lot of conflicting ideas and ideologies. Although there was a lot of disagreement on whether SF’s indication of support for the police was a ‘rubicon’, I still maintain that it was, as there is no going back from such a position. Once you agree to support the police you cannot retract that support, and as such this represents a very significant historical landmark for republicanism.

    Martin’s ding ding is a surrealistic background noise that is ticking away as time flows like sand through an hourglass. Like the sand, if the opportunities are not seized, the future of a reasonably self-determining democratic structure in Northern Ireland will also slip like sand between our fingers and will be lost for generations if not permanently.

    Ding Ding

  • ingram

    Miss Fitz,

    Thank You.Perhaps not quite Stockholm! although I have become emotionally conected to you. LOL

    quote”Martin’s ding ding is a surrealistic background noise that is ticking away as time flows like sand through an hourglass. Like the sand, if the opportunities are not seized, the future of a reasonably self-determining democratic structure in Northern Ireland will also slip like sand between our fingers and will be lost for generations if not permanently”unquote

    What I will say is I truly hope they do board that Bus.

    You are right, there is no going back for Sinn Fein from this position. Sure they can say No . But they will be damaged, internally (32 county) and internationally.That damage will in my opinion result in a challenge to Adams/McGuiness.

    Ding Ding

    Martin

  • qubol

    I have to disagree here and say the ding ding thing is totally ridiculous. Its not surrealistic nor is it smart, its just ridiculous and like overhere it just makes me skip over anything ingram has to say. Think of it like this – if in a real conversation someone terminated everything they said with ding ding (no matter the reason) well it wouldn’t be long before someone told them to buck up.
    Regarding the Adams statement – it just shows what we know to be true the DUP cant move forward on this without internal trouble. Regardless though SF should go ahead with the AF.

  • gerry

    I’m with over here and qubol, the ding ding thing has become the total of the fellas argument. It’s so daft its pointless reading his posts, because the ding ding dung dung takes away from argument. Tony Blair previously refered to the peace train leaving the station, but does not end his arguments with choo choo. Its immature, and so is his playing of the man, in particular with chris gaskin and pat mclarnon. and like miss fitz find myself suffering from some symptom or other because I never thought I defend shinners, but this ingram sets out to deliberately goad in an immature manner, how could someone behave so childishly and immaturely and then claim he was in intelligence? His ding ding has become the argument instead of politics. I don’t find it funny, because the humour has worn off it. Perhaps the first time was funny, but this gag is old, childish, and simply stupid.
    This is a good site,it discusses serious politics, it would be a pity to see it brought into the realms of farce.

  • Mick Davenport

    Unsubstantiated reports have been received of a type written account which details part of the intense behind-the-scenes negociating between Sinn Fein’s Gerry Adams and the DUP’s Ian Paisley. Recent exchanges between the two read as follows:-

    Gerry: Ian, you’ve messed it up again! You didn’t say what you were meant to say!
    Big Ian: Yeah, but am I bovvred?
    Gerry: You should be Big Man because you’ve just made policing more difficult for me to sell to the bhoys!
    Big Ian: Yeah, but am I bovvred?
    Gerry: Look, don’t you want to get the Assembly up and running? Don’t you want to get back to work?
    Big Ian: Gerry – look at my face – am I bovvred?
    Gerry: Well in that case, you leave me no alternative, I’ll just have to tell everyone what you agreed to say and then everybody will know it’s your fault – so how d’ya like that!?!
    Big Ian: Look at my face Gerry………., does it look bovvred?
    Gerry: But
    Big Ian: FACE
    Gerry:you
    Big Ian: BOVVERED
    Gerry:said
    Big Ian: FACE
    Gerry:you
    Big Ian: BOVVERED
    Gerry:would
    Big Ian: FACE
    Gerry:welcome
    Big Ian: BOVVERED
    Gerry:the
    Big Ian: FACE
    Gerry:wording
    Big Ian: BOVVERED
    Gerry:of
    Big Ian: FACE
    Gerry:the
    Big Ian: BOVVERED
    Gerry:motion
    Big Ian: FACE
    Gerry:to
    Big Ian: BOVVERED
    Gerry:be
    Big Ian: FACE
    Gerry:passed
    Big Ian: BOVVERED
    Gerry:at
    Big Ian: FACE
    Gerry:the
    Big Ian: BOVVERED
    Gerry:Sinn Féin
    Big Ian: FACE
    Gerry:Ard Chomhairle
    Big Ian: DO I LOOK FECKIN BOVVERED!!???!!

  • ingram

    Gerry,

    Miss fitz has explained to you in the simpliest of terms what the message is behind Ding Ding.

    Nothing childish in that.It is a subliminal message which may be beyond your wit.

    Why not just skip my post`s.

    To those that have contacted me and offered support from the Shinners I must say a big thank you.

    The Good news Gerry is I have as a result of an excellent and humourous post by Desertspoon on another forum temporarily suspended Ding Ding until such time as the AF is called.That is an incentive to Gerry.

    Regards,

    Ingram

  • Yokel-

    In the few years PSF has been the bigger of the two parties, it has failed to deliver. The longer this goes on, the more the lustre fades. In the bigger scheme of things, the SDLP’s analysis has consistently been proved correct, regardless of poll results. Anyway, as we all recognise, this is a long game.

    Pat-

    “How is SF signing up to policing a victory for the DUP?”

    This has been the single biggest demand from the DUP before they would power-share with PSF. The provos will now deliver it to satisfy the demands of the DUP. Of course, such a move will be a victory forsociety as it will help bring about better policing for all communities, but don’t kid yourself that the PSF move on policing is wholly altruistic.

    “Is it not strange for a narrow, post nationalist, 6 county party like the SDLP to harp on about abandoning republicanism.”

    Of the two main nationalist parties, only one of them has had to abandon its principles.

    “If you believe the DUP have never been intersted in power sharing…”

    I said they have never had any real desire, in other words they could take it or leave it. In recent years however, the taste of power coupled with their eviscerating of the UUP has made the prospect of DUP power sharing more likely, but certainly not inevitable.

  • Yoda

    Surely one rings the bell in order to stop the bus?

  • ingram

    yoda,

    The Bus is rung traditionally by the conductor prior to the driver leaving the stop to inform him that all is clear and by the passenger to request a stop.

    Hope that helps.

    Never mind if Adams Bottles it, we wont need the Bus nor the bell for a couple of years.

    Regards Martin

  • Yoda

    Hope that helps.

    Not in the slightest.

  • Ian

    “I also fail to see why the DUP didn’t say it. It’s not incompatible with their position and gives plenty of wiggle room.”

    That’s exactly the point I’ve been trying to make. They’re supposed to be partners in government in a few weeks’ time.

    The DUP should realise that unstinting support for the PSNI won’t be forthcoming from everyone in the nationalist community the moment SF pass the AF motion. Whilst that is what all parties should be working towards together, the AF is only the start of the process. SF can call for cooperation from their constituents but there will still be considerable scepticism.

    The earlier devolution of justice powers can be brought forward, the easier it will be to overcome that wider reluctance. And therefore, the better for everyone be they unionist or nationalist.

    Who gains from the British government retaining control? For example, the NIO have seen fit to respond to local parties requests to end the 50% remission rule for dangerous inmates, but they could just have easily have said “You lot do it when you’re mature enough to gain responsibility for the criminal justice system.”

    (In fact, that would be consistent with their carrot-and-stick approach to wider devolution, maybe they should have done that, but they wouldn’t be so cynical, would they?)

  • regular reader

    Mr Ingram, I am interested in your input, I really am: just stop saying ‘ding ding’!
    Please!
    It’s irritating as f*ck. 🙂
    Seriously, it really is.

  • bus driver

    I like what Yoda said. Where I am from we ring the bell to let the driver know we want off the bus. If the Dup cannot/willnot compromise maybe Martin is right. Soon Gerry A (according to Martin he is on the London bus) will be ding dinging so as he can get off.

    Devolve the government, and policing and justice, or guess what? Ding ding, Sinn Fein and a few others will be filing off the bus and moving on to plan B, or back to the drawing board. Sinn Fein have proven creative, resilient, flexible, and compromising in the past, so the drawing board is a a famaliar and useful place for them to be, or why Martin would they be on your London bus?

    I think that they would be equally capable off the bus, over to the side of the road, looking maybe for a new bus or new road. Hopefully they get off the fecking thing before it crashes.

    Ding ding,
    next stop plan B.