Total unity

For the first time that I can ever recall, a DUP split is the news.bbc.co.uk Northern Ireland headline story.

  • joeCanuck

    Did you actually read the article Michael?
    There is no split.
    Hehehehehehe

  • Irish in America

    You mean it’s not just SF that has disagreement?!?

  • Yes, Michael, it’s easy to titter at the grumblings within the DUP. That doesn’t change the fact that your party’s position, as outlined by your leader and his predecessor, is to jump straight back into bed without even trying to strike any kind of hard bargain. Your party has nothing meaningful to contribute.

    There are clearly divisions within the DUP, although, as yet, they have not reached the poison of the Trimble era. Nevertheless, 80 people is a decent turn-out for a December evening in Portadown for a 90 minute lecture from Bob. I remember going along to the Scout Hall in Michael Shilliday’s Hillsborough in 1995 to hear McCartney savage the UUP leadership to general approval in a room packed with the then leader Molyneaux’s constituency workers. Gadfly he may be, but no one can rally a party’s dissidents with more panache than Bob.

    The account of that meeting reminded me of a DUP public rally in the same Carleton Street Orange Hall back in 1999. Paisley was in tradtional form that night. It’s truly ironic that McCartney now throws the same insults at Paisley that the Big Man threw at his establishment rivals for 40 years. Paisley used to make fun of the O’Neillites for using UUP patronage to benefit their wives. Now there is a Lady Paisley in the Lords, where it would be difficult to say her peerage is due reward for public service. Paisley used to attack other unionists for being seduced by the trappings of power. Now he seems to be overly impressed by them, as McCartney pointed out.

    There is little doubt that Paisley is walking down the same road as Trimble to the same destination. Internal DUP discord will continue – so Michael, you’ll get a few more threads out of it yet.

  • True Blue

    I agree with JC the media is determined to find a split in the DUP come what may they must be in a bad way for a head line I can assure all bloggers that there is no split, some of the people speaking recently have not been seen in or around the DUP for many years and are ill-informed listening to garbage spun out by the media and the enemies of DUP.

    The DUP will not make the same mistake as the UU who did not keep their promises to the electorate and destroyed the province’s moral rights by allowing the IRA into Government before they were commited to being democrats this the DUP will not do whatever length of time it takes. The Party has a position from where it will not deviate agreed by the Leader, Party Officers, MP’s , MEP, MLA’s and endorsed by the Party Executive.

    A divided party never wins. The DUP will not make that mistake as they intend to stay the leader of Unionism for many years to come with the support of the electorate whom they do not take for granted, unlike the UU.

  • Balloo

    ‘The DUP will not make the same mistake as the UU who did not keep their promises to the electorate and destroyed the province’s moral rights by allowing the IRA into Government before they were commited to being democrats this the DUP will not do whatever length of time it takes’

    So when is a terrorist not a terrorist? When do they cross that rubicon and become democrats? When they sign up to policing?

    The DUP have kept their promises to the electorate? It doesn’t seem that way to many a people in the DUP and outside the DUP… surely if the they kept their promises d’hont would be finished, SF would be smashed, and we’d have a ‘fair deal’.

  • True Blue,

    So the DUP has kept its promises? Can you tell us then why the DUP has accepted the formation in principle of an Executive by D’Hondt when Paisley expressly ruled this out in the last general election?

  • Tiny

    The audience contained at least one DUP Lagan Valley member, an extremely loyal Donaldson man, (he left the UUP with Jeff) of course he may have attended so as to report back, but more likely he is about to jump again.
    As for Dodds performance today, he would be better admitting there is serious division, at least then he would have credibility, his account of why he and the 11 others released the press statement is laughable, all it did was force Paisley’s hand, it was totally counter-productive.

    The DUP is obviously split with the ‘old guard’ determined not to share power, but what is the alternative, another 30 years of direct rule, and any way, they were happy enough to campaign under the slogan “A fair deal” if they didn’t mean with Sinn Fein, who did they mean?

  • Truth and Justice

    I dont even know why this is on the site the DUP seem to have sorted themselves out why dont you talk about the spits in the UUP for a change!

  • Frustrated Democrat

    T & J

    What world are you living in? …. The DUP have a split running thorugh the party and the rest of us will have to wait and see what is going to happen before we can move forward.

    Why can’t the DUP just be honest and tell us that they will never share power with SF after the internal oposition reared its head, instead of looking for excuses to blame SF.

    The voters will then be clear what they are voting for….. no powersharing as long as the DUP are in charge. If that is what the voters want and they understand the consequences with reagrd to education rates more Southern Irish intervention etc. etc. then as a democrat I will have to accept it.

  • True Blue

    I agree with Truth and Justice there is no splits in the DUP, it is the media and others who are trying to make a story out of an non story. I think Michael S is trying to do what many Ulster Unionists do that is to try and make mischief because they have no leadership, no policies, no direction, no hope, they are finished. We have seen the outworkings of the UUP inaction, please God that they never again get into the position to lead Unionism, at least the DUP are trying to recover ground surrendered by the UUP and also stand firm against the IRA something the UUP could never never never be able to boast. The DUP will deliver the Fair Deal for the people of Northern Ireland if not by March 2007, they will keep on pressing to their goal they will not settle for the crumbs from Hain’s Table they will wait until they get the banquet for ALL the people of Northern Ireland

  • joeCanuck

    ROTFLMAO

  • Secur O’Crat

    So, now that Swinger Fulton is meekly doing his time, will the DUP go back to war under one of their flags of convenience?

  • dpef

    Splits are weird within Unionism.

    Remember (well we don’t) the non-entity that challenged Molyneaux. Never heard of him again.

    What was his name? (I’m sure he feels neglected, rejected and embittered: is he still involved in politics)

    Unlike that guy (who no one remembers) a credible leadership challenge may be emerging from within unionism.

  • bertie

    So are is the UUP, or wht is left of it a united party. Are they all delighted about the pact with Ervine? Is that still in existance or is it indelicate of me to mention it?

  • Maitiú Ó Garmaile

    Rumours of a DUP split have been organised within the DUP to take the heat off Paisley’s leadership. As bigoted and backward as the DUP are, it is time they set up this executive. The world knows what thw DUP are: a right-wing neo-religious extremist party. They have milked their support at recent elections for long enough. Let us see what they can or cannot do now. Then hopefully the garden centre unionists can send them back where they belong because they do not represent unionism. They represent ‘NO’, ‘NEVER’ and ‘FREE PRESBYTERIAN CHURCH’. Surely there is more to unionism and loyalism and better things for the six counties than that empty hateful rhetoric.

  • True Blue

    Can I assure bloggers that the DUP don’t do rumours they deal in facts, and the fact is there is no split in the DUP and Dr Paisleys leadership is not in question as I see it from the Executive decision. If MOG is correct then there must be an awful lot of people out there who he refers to as ” right-wing neo-religious extremists” which is of course an insult to the 250000+ people who support the DUP. I wonder what he would call the people who support Sinn Fien/IRA who are said to be a “Marxist Party” among many other things, they are heardly supporting a Kindergarden party

  • Truth and Justice

    It is strange for all the so called splits in the DUP there has not been one resignation from the party yet the UUP in the last several months have had one ex MLA joining the Conservatives and two councillors also joining the Conservatives and one UUP Councillor joining the DUP in Ards!

  • jerryp

    Maybe not directly linked but story in today’s Tribune about emails between a loyalist murderer and Paisley jr./ Donaldson is revealing, not least that junior is an idiot.

  • Truth and Justice

    Maybe we should also add to the story the UUP/UVF pact and Bob McCartney and Mrs Peebles!

  • Smithsonian

    True Blue
    The DUP did not smash Sinn Fein they went into government with them, the DUP did stop d’Hondt they will use it to elect ministers, the DUP did not deliver a fair deal, they delivered the same deal but without the safeguards.

    Core DUP workers will avoid the shame of the duplicity by staying at home in the next election. Only those that distance themselves from the current policy will have any chance of maintaining their vote. That is why the 12 apostles issued their statement and that is why it is a split.

  • Billy

    True Blue

    You should change your name to Ostrich as you have clearly got your head wedged firmly in the sand.

    No split within the DUP – wake up and smell the coffee!!

    I would agree that the split in the DUP is not on the same scale as the UUP splits after 1998.

    However, this is because the unhappy UUP voters had somewhere to run to – the DUP. The current unhappy DUP voters do not have the same option.

    If people within the DUP are unhappy, they can either not vote or vote for an anti SAA candidate.

    This will simply split the Unionist vote even more and make it easier for the UK govt to continue it’s clear policy of gradual disengagement.

    Even if the unhappy DUP candidates have enough support to halt progress on a devolved assembly, so what? The UK govt will simply proceed with it’s joint stewardship option – an increased role for the RoI govt in the running of NI which will only increase even more with the passage of time.

    Whether you admit it (to yourself) or not, Unionism in general and the DUP in particular are in a position that can only get weaker over time.

  • Maitiú Ó Garmaile

    16 True Blue

    If you say Sinn Féin are said to be a Marxist party, then who says that they are.

    I don’t think the DUP have secured a quarter of million votes at an election yet though correct me if I’m wrong. I’m aware that they mightnt be too far off it

    I don’t believe that all DUP voters are “right-wing neo-religious extremists”. Some of them might even be lefties whose only consideration is to keep the 6 counties from any element of the green and theyd be right cause the DUP are hardline. However, theyll not get much advantage with idiots like Paisley and Willy McCrea representing them.

    How embarrassing for all of us in this “bastard” state that an 80+ year old right-wing extremist cleric like Paisley is first minister

  • bertie

    Not nearly as embarrasing as having a Deputy First minister who is quite proud of being one of the leaders of an organisation that has murdered rings round him.

  • Smithsonian

    bertie
    Whatever the moral argumen, can you envisage any political solution that does not have Sinn Fein in government?

  • True Blue

    I agree with Bertie it is more than embarrasing it is stomach churning, morally unjustified, democratically defiling and there are many more adjectives which could descibe the mire pit that politics has decended in Northern ireland since the UUP allowed the real scum of this province to be elevated to high office, self confessed murderers, bombers and more besides what would MOG call those people. I will simply call them what they are murderers, bombers etc. because that is what they are.

  • Balloo

    What I find very interesting from True Blue and Truth & Justice is that in defence of the DUP they continually try to deflect attention onto the UUP.

    The DUP are a more tightly controlled and disciplined machine than the UUP so of course it is harder to get gossip or intrigue.

    As Billy said: ‘wake up and smell the coffee!!’

    Are the DUP set to run another election attacking the UUP? That would be REALLY good for unionism.

  • Smithsonian

    True Blue
    So you agree with Bertie, why then are you going into government with these people?

    If they give you their word in January that they support policing, will that be enough? Do you really trust these people or do you want a political lifetime to pass before going into government with them?

  • bertie

    “Whatever the moral argumen, can you envisage any political solution that does not have Sinn Fein in governmentcan you envisage any political solution that does not have Sinn Fein in government? ”

    I envisage no solution that is a real solution if it does not address the moral argument of having SF in government.

  • Smithsonian

    bertie
    OK, but what solution do you have in mind? What would it take for SF to be acceptable in government to you?

  • bertie

    A repudiation of both the IRA’s terrorism and its existance, full confessions for all terrorists activity and knowledge of terrorist activity carried out by otheres, by the individuals.

  • Smithsonian

    bertie
    So if they don’t do that – no government, no assembly, no talking. How then should we govern/manage/run Northern Ireland?

    Who will prevent the cuts in services, the destruction of our economy, the increases in water tax and rates, the destruction of education system?

    Will we just accept increasing joint authority as the only way of keeping the dissidents under control and preventing a return to sectarian violence?

  • bertie

    “So if they don’t do that ….”

    So if they don’t do that and are still accepted into governement, we will have in governement people who have failed to repudiate the IRA, its existance and its murders and maiming, and some of them who have been directly involved and who are still withholding evidence.

  • Smithsonian

    bertie
    Well not if we don’t have an Assembly. We could always close it down and go for joint authority. Which would you prefer?

  • empey head

    ‘will have in governement people who have failed to repudiate the IRA, its existance and its murders and maiming,’

    not much sign of the DUP repudiating notorious sectarian ‘murderer and maimer’, Kenny McClinton-more like the other way around in fact.

    no double standards there then…

  • junior

    So Bertie,
    I take it that you believe that Lloyd George made a grave error in negotiating with (that well known terrorist) Michael Collins and his colleagues.
    Perhaps as an extension, Britain should reinvade to reclaim their historic rights and bring the Irish nation back under the benevolent wing of the British Crown.
    I don’t know how you can sleep at night worrying so much.

  • bertie

    “not much sign of the DUP repudiating notorious sectarian ‘murderer and maimer’, Kenny McClinton-more like the other way around in fact.

    no double standards there then”

    Is he going to be going into government?

    The DUP have never accepted the legitimacy of the UVF/LVF or whatever group this man mudered as a part of so where is the double standard.

  • bertie

    “bertie
    Well not if we don’t have an Assembly. We could always close it down and go for joint authority. Which would you prefer? ”

    I prefer not to have terrorists in government

  • bertie

    junior

    It’s clearly past your bed time

    “So Bertie,
    I take it that you believe that Lloyd George made a grave error in negotiating with (that well known terrorist) Michael Collins and his colleagues. ”

    We have been talking about having terrorists in governement.

    “Perhaps as an extension, Britain should reinvade to reclaim their historic rights and bring the Irish nation back under the benevolent wing of the British Crown. ”

    What has this got to do with having or not having terrorist in governement? On second thoughts, I don’t really care.

    “I don’t know how you can sleep at night worrying so much. ”

    I’m sure there are lots of things that you don’t know.

  • junior

    hehehehehehe

  • empey head

    So just because the political representatives of loyalists have no chance of getting elected, then unionists should not be pressing their terrorist wing to hand in their guns that killed so many innocent people?

    Just like Paisley Junior and Donaldson, this is a convenient way for you to duck the issue, Bertie.

    The abysmal failure of loyalists to decommission is a damning indictment of unionists like you and your elected leaders.

    Where is the debate on decomissioning within the loyalist community-where are the public prononcements from unionist ‘leaders’ pleading for the guns to be handed in?
    The biggest losers in all of this are the working-class people in protestant areas whose lives are being destroyed by drug-dealing vermin masquerading as the defenders of loyalist areas.

  • bertie

    “So just because the political representatives of loyalists have no chance of getting elected, then unionists should not be pressing their terrorist wing to hand in their guns that killed so many innocent people? ”

    Unionists do not have a terrorist wing. Aprt form that I have never said anything about not pressing terrorists to hand in guns.

    “The abysmal failure of loyalists to decommission is a damning indictment of unionists like you and your elected leaders. ”

    like **** it is. The UVF has as much to do with me as the IRA has.

    “Where is the debate on decomissioning within the loyalist community-where are the public prononcements from unionist ‘leaders’ pleading for the guns to be handed in?”

    There is nothing to debate. unionist leasdes have frequently denounced terrorists. I am going to plead with no murderers and I don’t ask anyone else to.

    ” The biggest losers in all of this are the working-class people in protestant areas whose lives are being destroyed by drug-dealing unpleasant masquerading as the defenders of loyalist areas. ”

    Did you write this yourself as I would tend to agree with you.

  • Smithsonian

    bertie
    I prefer not to have terrorists in government

    Does that mean you don’t want any government at all if it means having terrorists in that government?

    Would you prefer joint authority to the Assembly in which Magennis is DFM? (straight answer to straight question respectfully requested)

  • bertie

    Smithsonian

    You are asking me the equivalent of someone with a gun aimed in the direction fo two friends and telling me that if I don’t agree to him killing Fred, he will kill Jim. It is not accepttable to me for him to do either and I would not state a preference.

  • Scipio

    Anyone else think that Bertie is “the” Bertie trying to scare the DUP away from power sharing so that he can get his hands on Joint Authority?

  • joeCanuck

    So I take it you’ll be abstaining from voting next March Bertie.

  • bertie

    Why would you make that assumption?

  • joeCanuck

    Well Bertie:
    No power sharing agreement-
    Assembly dissolved –
    No elections –
    De facto joint Authority.

  • Smithsonian

    bertie
    The challenges facing us are real, they are not hypothetical. It may not be fair, moral or just but here is the reality.

    Tick a or b
    A) Assembly (with Magennis and Kelly)
    B) Joint Authority

    If you fail to tick either box, your answer will be taken as B)and no further communication will be entered into on the subject.

    Make your choice

  • bertie

    Joe

    so how is that abstaining from voting.

  • bertie

    Smithsonian

    How can you not think that I have given you my answer. Isn’t it obvious that I am ticking neither box?

  • joeCanuck

    Bertie
    From your reply it does seem that you prefer Joint Authority.
    Unless your party (which is not split, of course) has either a card up its sleeve or a rabbit under the hat.
    As Smithsonian keeps pointing out, we are now down to two choices/

  • Smithsonian

    bertie
    In that case, the answer is B) joint authority.

    I suspect that there will be legislation to protect minority groupings and we will have recourse to the Law courts in Dublin for any flagrant abuses.

  • bertie

    “Bertie
    From your reply it does seem that you prefer Joint Authority. ”

    Why?

    “Unless your party (which is not split, of course) has either a card up its sleeve or a rabbit under the hat. ”

    What party is this?

  • joeCanuck

    I’ve had enough of your obfuscation Bertie. I don’t particularly enjoy talking to people who don’t have the courage of their convictions.
    Enjoy your life under Joint Authority.

    regards

  • bertie

    I am really interested in why you appear to take it for granted that I am in the DUP.

  • bertie

    my last post was made before seing your last.

    ” I don’t particularly enjoy talking to people who don’t have the courage of their convictions.”

    In what way do I not have the courage of my convictions? I don’t find terrorists in government and I am not going to endorse it.

    And I don’t particularly enjoy debating with people who make unecessary assumptions.

  • Smithsonian

    bertie
    I don’t particularly enjoy debating with people who make unnecessary assumptions.

    Peculiar statement. It is a valid research technique to postulate a hypothesis, with a view to proving or disproving it.

    If you aren’t in the DUP fair enough, but we are debating whether there is a split in the DUP along the lines we have been discussing.

    Given the views that you have expressed is there any reason why one should not assume that you are representative of a group people who might have supported the DUP.

    If so your thinking would be of particular relevance to the topic at hand.

    How many people (% of electorate) would prefer joint authority rather than an Assembly with Martin McGuinness as DFM?

  • bertie

    Smithsonian

    “I don’t particularly enjoy debating with people who make unnecessary assumptions.

    Peculiar statement. It is a valid research technique to postulate a hypothesis, with a view to proving or disproving it. ”

    That isn’t uneccasry. I actually meant presumtions as in me being a member of the DUP as all he had to do was ask if I was. He took it for granted. He was not putting it to the test.

    Being representative of a group that might support the DUP is not the same as it being my party.

    “How many people (% of electorate) would prefer joint authority rather than an Assembly with Martin McGuinness as DFM? ”

    I wouldn’t know. but I haven’t expressed a preference either.

    I am always suprised that there is any desire for any sort of local assembly.

  • trollbuster

    Smithsonian and joeCanuck,
    You guys seem to be unaware of (or have forgotten) one of the most useful pieces of advice when blogging:
    Never feed the trolls.