UVF remember at Belfast’s cenotaph?

UVF members formed ranks and laid a wreath at the cenotaph at Belfast City Hall on Remembrance Sunday, according to the SDLP’s Alban Maginness, who has called for an investigation. Apparently, the UVF group formed in ranks around 9am to lay a wreath, which, according to Maginness, had clear UVF lettering. He also said it appears this practise has been going on since 1998. If this is true, how is it possible that nothing has been done to stop the practise and why hasn’t anyone else spoken out?

  • nmc

    A couple of years ago I was passing the back of City Hall and I saw on one of the mouments a wreath in poppys with the letters UVF spelled out on them. I went in and caused a scene with the people at the front desk, and one of the security men went out to remove it.

  • bertie

    If this is supposed to be in memory of the old UVF and the sacrifice at WWI, then it behoves those who were incolved to make this clear eg including the dates with the initials. However, if as I suspect that this is some sick attempt to commemorate the murdererous present day UVF and try and put them in the same light as those who helped deliver Germany and the world from the thrall of Hitler, then it should not be allowed.

  • bertie

    Actually cancel that, if it was the UVF that formed ranks and laid it it shouln;t be allowed even if the wreath was for Edith Cavell!

  • Last month the city council banned a group called the Bayardo Somme Association from laying a wreath at the cenotaph during the main ceremony. The Bayardo Somme Association are based on the Shankill and named after the bar blew up by the IRA in the 1970s.
    My understanding is that the Bayardo Somme Association laid this wreath – this probably speaks volumes about its membership.
    The question should be did the council have knowledge that this would happen hence the reason for the ban?

  • IaN

    I don’t understand why the ‘old UVF’ are considered any less a terrorist group than the ‘modern UVF’.

    Are we supposed to believe that when the ‘old UVF’ were gun-running arms from Germany in 1912, they weren’t intending to use them in anger in defiance of the will of the British Parliament vis a vis Home Rule, but were in fact acting in a patriotic (and remarkably prescient) fashion, in so far as they brought about a partial decommissioning of the Kaiser’s weaponry – two years prior to the outbreak of WW1 ?!?

    But then again what do I know – I wasn’t even aware that the world was in the “thrall of Hitler” during WW1 !?!

  • darth rumsfeld

    “Are we supposed to believe that when the ‘old UVF’ were gun-running arms from Germany in 1912, they weren’t intending to use them in anger in defiance of the will of the British Parliament vis a vis Home Rule,”

    No, but equally everyone outside the UVF either laughed at it or dismissed it as bluff. The reason that the old UVF aren’t considered a terrorist organisation might just be that they..er didn’t commit any acts of terrorism.

    I deplore the theft of the name by the present group of thugs and their act of remembrance stinks

  • Ian

    “The reason that the old UVF aren’t considered a terrorist organisation might just be that they..er didn’t commit any acts of terrorism.”

    So by your definition the Florida gun-running was okay as none of those weapons were used in “acts of terrorism”?

  • bertie

    “But then again what do I know – I wasn’t even aware that the world was in the “thrall of Hitler” during WW1 !?! ”

    that’s probably because it wasn’t and in case you are under the mistaken notion that I said this, I was not refering to the old UVF when I said “those who helped deliver Germany and the world from the thrall of Hitler”

  • bertie

    “”The reason that the old UVF aren’t considered a terrorist organisation might just be that they..er didn’t commit any acts of terrorism.”

    So by your definition the Florida gun-running was okay as none of those weapons were used in “acts of terrorism”?

    No because they were for a terrorist organisation, who did …er commit acts of terrorism.

  • white

    Where the orange order involved in the uvf wreath laying ?

    They commemorate plenty of terrorists during their marching season.

    Gotta laugh at Bobby Saulters on the Spotlight programme the other night (about the links between the order and loyalist paramilitarism)

    When questioned about the orange order commemoration of uvf sectarian killer Brian Robinson, Bobby said that the issue was sorted out years ago.. Thats why the order carried the bannerette at several marches during 2006?

  • George

    Darth,
    are you saying that the old UVF carried out no terrorist acts in Ireland 1920-1922 and murdered nobody?

    Who armed the C Specials and where did they get their guns? How were a quarter of Belfast’s Catholics forced from their homes in this period?

    On what do you base your new history of Northern Ireland where the UVF didn’t commit any acts of terrorism?

  • Doctor Who

    George

    “How were a quarter of Belfast’s Catholics forced from their homes in this period? ”

    Is this another one you heard in a pub on the falls.

  • ThePubManAgain

    Dr Who,

    You just love to treat any negative references to Unionism or postive reference to Irish people as ‘pub talk’.

    Jonathan Bardon’s, A History of Ulster is a good starting point, though the figures he quotes in his assessment for the period were provided by those giving relief to Catholics driven from their homes and jobs (along with left wing Protestants in many cases and Republican Protestants in a fewer cases). Protestant Unionists also died in large numbers (but not as large) during this period but didn’t experience evictions from jobs and property as they had ‘state’ protection.

    The powers in the north did not record any statistics of this type. The Dail did commission a study on the problem but I’m sure you’d reject that outright.

    Are you denying it happened or the extent?

    Do you read anything or just learn things on Slugger’s after you reject the uncomfortable as ‘pub talk’?

  • Doctor Who

    Pubman

    “Do you read anything or just learn things on Slugger’s after you reject the uncomfortable as ‘pub talk’?”

    LOL LOL so you you can read, proud of you..

    “Jonathan Bardon’s, A History of Ulster is a good starting point, though the figures he quotes in his assessment for the period were provided by those giving relief to Catholics driven from their homes and jobs (along with left wing Protestants in many cases and Republican Protestants in a fewer cases). Protestant Unionists also died in large numbers (but not as large) during this period but didn’t experience evictions from jobs and property as they had ‘state’ protection. ”

    So why focus on just Catholics.

    You also admit that the figures are made up, and exist in Floklore..you really shouldn´t beleive everthing you read in the Andytown News.

    Have you ever wondered Pubman why while the Catholic popualtion in the North prospered both econmically and numerically, at the same time Protestants in the South all but disapeared….now these facts have been recorded.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Dr. Who: “LOL LOL so you you can read, proud of you.. ”

    As opposed to someone who seems to be unable to wrap their head around the words “play the ball, not the man?”

    Dr. Who: “why while the Catholic popualtion in the North prospered both econmically and numerically, at the same time Protestants in the South all but disapeared….now these facts have been recorded. ”

    From “Bare Necessities:
    Poverty and Social Exclusion in Northern Ireland,”

    ‘Thirty-six per cent of Catholic households were in poverty compared with 25 per cent of Protestant households (a ratio of 1.44:1). These figures are mirrored by the poverty rates for National Identity (not a Section 75 dimension). Thirty seven per cent of ‘Irish’ households were poor compared with 25 per cent of ‘British’ households.’

    This would seem to punch a hole in your arguement. Throw in the fact that the Northern Irish economy is a screwed-up as a football bat and I would have to say that your opinion is so lacking in support as to risk arrest for vagrancy.

    While *some* Catholics *may* be prospering, the Catholic population is disproportionately living in poverty in comparison to the Protestant majority. But, hey, why let fact and statistical analysis get in the way?

  • DK

    DC – those are interesting figures and certainly illustrate how catholics were discriminated against in the past. I cannot download the report, but are there any indications that the situation is improving, either in terms of less poverty or more equality?

  • Dread Cthulhu

    DK: “DC – those are interesting figures and certainly illustrate how catholics were discriminated against in the past. I cannot download the report, but are there any indications that the situation is improving, either in terms of less poverty or more equality? ”

    The report is based on 2003 data, iirc, built with the intention of being periodically updated — this iteration was to develop the baseline data. I have as yet found no updates.

  • Why

    Many on this board many defended the GAA’s celebrations of the IRA (which was labelled as rememberance), and we were told how it was legitimate to remember the IRA in this fashion. We were told they fought a war, they were soldiers. We were told the if the IRA were terrorists then so were the state forces. And all at the taxpayers expense.

    So I say to these people, what is so bad about remembering the modern day UVF soldiers, like Brian Robinson et all who paid the ultimate sacrifice ?, after all by manys a nationalist’s guidelines on this board, they too were soldiers, werent they ?

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Why: “So I say to these people, what is so bad about remembering the modern day UVF soldiers, like Brian Robinson et all who paid the ultimate sacrifice ?, after all by manys a nationalist’s guidelines on this board, they too were soldiers, werent they ? ”

    It is a matter of options. If Mr. Robinson wished to legitimately defend the state, could he not have joined the legitimate security forces, be it the RUC/PSNI or the Army? Why join up with a gang of drug-dealing dregs?

    Secondly, there is the small matter of function. Substantially more Loyalist operations targetted civilians. The majority of those killed by pro-Unionist paramilitaries are civilans, to the tune of slightly less than 80%, illuminating the truth behind the notion “any Taig will do.” Contrary-wise, Republicans were approximately 33%, with PIRA slightly below even that.

  • Ian

    Why,

    You sound like Harold Gracey at Drumcree: “Gerry Adams doesn’t condemn terrorism, so I’m not going to condemn Johnny Adair and if he wants to join in with the Orange protests then that’s fine with me.”

    For your information, I’m not a raving republican, I never defended any GAA celebrations/remembrance, I’m an outside observer of the peace process posting from England – and it’s people like me that Unionists are supposed to be courting if they want to sustain the Union with Britain.

    And I find it sickening to hear Unionists defend the terrorists in the UVF, be they old or new.

  • Dk

    Dread – but the loyalists didn’t have any soldiers/cops to shoot at. If you exclude soldiers and cops, then the IRA figure is probably also 80%

  • Dread Cthulhu

    DK: “but the loyalists didn’t have any soldiers/cops to shoot at. If you exclude soldiers and cops, then the IRA figure is probably also 80% ”

    Strange logic, DK. The police and soldiers, being the mechanism of state control, were legitimate targets of war, assuming arguendo that this was indeed a war. Likewise, the Catholics were taught that the police and the soldiers certainly weren’t there for their, the Catholics, protection, suggesting that other arrangements might be necessary. This latter point was clearly hammered home, what between the B-Specials and Bloody Sunday. The police were part of the problem.

    As for Loyalists, in any sane society, which arguably excuses N.I., a person who takes up the gun despite the protection of the state is at best a vigilante and a thug at worst. Track record suggests that the UVF was more the latter than the former.

    Your argument does not address the main point — if Mr. Robinson felt he needed to protect his community, he had many legitimate options, as opposed to throwing in with a collection of drug-dealing thugs. Catholics had no such options.

  • fair dinkum

    The modern UVF continue the struggle. Many paid the ultimate prirce. Lest we forget. Dr Who: don’t let these upstarts get you down.

  • nmc

    Again Fair Dinkum’s contribution, while designed to rile catholic/republican posters, only serves to make me feel good about my situation.

    What FD(II) fails to realise that the only struggle being carried on by the UVF, is the struggle to part working class Loyalists and their money.

  • Doctor Who

    Dread

    “As opposed to someone who seems to be unable to wrap their head around the words “play the ball, not the man?”

    Just replying to the inuendo that I don´t read, i seem to remember you having a go at me on another thread for reccomending a book on the plantations. But sure I´m used to your hyprocracies by now.

    I notice even though there is a sizeable amount of Protestant people on the poverty threshold you still seek to be devisive. In absolutely none of your posts to date have you expressed a desire for unity within this group, but always resort to mopery.

    You neither care to challenge the fact that while the Cathiolic population has prospered numerically in Northern Ireland, including many migrants from the South, the numbers of Southern Protestants has all but disapeared. This is hardly consistant with widespread claims of discrimination against Catholics. Why move to or indeed stay in a country which systematically discriminates and as others on these threads say practices genocide aginst you. Doesn´t make sense Dread. When institutional discrimination occurs the population of that people tends to dwindle, like Protestants in the Free State. There are examples of this all over the world.

    “The police and soldiers, being the mechanism of state control, were legitimate targets of war, assuming arguendo that this was indeed a war.”

    Yeah and it just so happens that the Police where by and large local and Protestant. Shame on you Dread for seeking to justify murder.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Dr Who: “I notice even though there is a sizeable amount of Protestant people on the poverty threshold you still seek to be devisive (sic). In absolutely none of your posts to date have you expressed a desire for unity within this group, but always resort to mopery.”

    How, pray tell, is the gathering of data and statistical analysis “mopery?” The subject was studies and the data analyzed. You seem to have this inability to grasp that just because reality does not follow your desired script does not make it incorrect, either factually or rhetorically. As for statements of solidarity or unity, I find such comments from you laughable on two fronts – your sheer unashamed hypocrisy in even forwarding such and argument and the simple fact that, as an Episcopalian, I AM a Protestant. I am simply not a Unionist.

    Your thesis was incorrect. That I corrected you does not make my statement mopery. Until and unless you can find some flaw in either the methodology of the study or its math, the fact stands that Catholics are disproportionately impoverished, exceeding even the level of “voluntary poverty” within Northern Ireland.

    Dr Who: “You neither care to challenge the fact that while the Cathiolic (sic) population has prospered numerically in Northern Ireland, including many migrants from the South, the numbers of Southern Protestants has all but disapeared (sic). This is hardly consistant (sic) with widespread claims of discrimination against Catholics. ”

    Only if you fail to plot progress against time. Gains have been made in recent decades, to be sure — if you had paid attention, you’d even have noticed that I allowed for such in my refutation of your initial comment.

    As for the exodus of Southern Protestants was a mixture of fear and suspicion — fear that they would be treated in the fashion that Protestants had treated Catholics prior to the establishment of the Free State and the suspicion arising (quite logically, may I add) from the religious and socialist hodge-podge of the Republic.

    Dr Who: “Yeah and it just so happens that the Police where by and large local and Protestant. Shame on you Dread for seeking to justify murder. ”

    Justify? Hardly. I qualified my statement — “assuming arguendo” — assuming for the sake of argument. Likewise, I would point out the fact that the police were disproportionately Protestant would seem to support the argument that there was indeed discrimination against the Catholic population within Northern Ireland, a notion which would seem to undercut your own thesis. This assumes, arguendo, that you have a coherent argument to make. Thus far, you have yet to support your contention with facts or figure, preferring instead to make clumsy and hominem attacks. You may hoot and caper all you like – your sweeping pronouncements are unsupported by fact.

  • Reader

    DC: The police and soldiers, being the mechanism of state control, were legitimate targets of war, assuming arguendo that this was indeed a war.
    But, for people who don’t think there was a war, neither the IRA nor the UVF had any ‘legitimate targets’ at all. If we need a hierarchy of evil, we can just count their victims.

  • George

    Doctor Who,
    Relief organisations at the time estimated that between 8,700 and 11,000 Catholics lost their jobs, that 23,000 were forced from their homes and that 500 Catholic owned businesses had been destroyed. This is indeed from Bardon p 202.

    What figures do you have for the period and what is the source?

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Realist: “But, for people who don’t think there was a war, neither the IRA nor the UVF had any ‘legitimate targets’ at all. If we need a hierarchy of evil, we can just count their victims. ”

    Not entirely, but you do make an appropriate riposte.

    There are legitimate reasons for insurrection against the state. The cooperation between the police and the Protestant mob, combined with practice institutionalized discrimination against the Catholic minority, for example, might convince some of the necessity of armed conflict, polite options having been ignored to date.

    As for a “hierarchy of evil,” I don’t think your arguement has much in favor of it, if only because I doubt either of us is qualified to seperate the sheep from the goats. Who is more evil — the man who attacks those whom he sees as oppressing him or the man who, in his anger, takes up the gun under the slogan “any Taig will do?”

    From a non-denominational / non-dogmatic religious view — God’s eyes as expressed through the Testament, they are equally in sin and, therefor, equally “evil.” You and I, I suspect, lack the perspective of the infinite.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Pardon, Reader, not Realist…

  • Doctor Who

    Dread

    Thank you for pointing out my spelling errors. Unlike yourself I am posting from a non English speaking country, my PC will only spell check in Spanish.

    You still completely ignore the rise of the Catholic population against the theory of widespread intimidation, discrimiation and genocide.

    George

    Relief oranisations?
    Is this the same as the modern Community spokesmen.

    Is Dr. Bardon´s book still being used for GCSE History.

    One question I would like to ask Nationalists is do you think that Protestants have ever been discrimianted against by the state, their Catholic neighbours or Republican terrorists. Or is this just the right of Catholics.

  • nmc

    One question I would like to ask Nationalists is do you think that Protestants have ever been discrimianted against by the state, their Catholic neighbours or Republican terrorists. Or is this just the right of Catholics.

    The penal laws applied to Presbyterian’s as well as Catholics. To be honest I’d say that most Nationalists understand that “the state” will opress and discriminate against anyone it sees fit. This has been the way it has always been.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Dr Who: “You still completely ignore the rise of the Catholic population against the theory of widespread intimidation, discrimiation and genocide. ”

    Your hyperbole is getting thicker and deeper… I may have to dig out my boots…

    The Catholic population has risen primarily in periods where the state has sought to normalize its policies. Your clumsy assertation — still bereft of any supporting fact or analysis — does not take into account these changes in state policy.

    Dr Who: “One question I would like to ask Nationalists is do you think that Protestants have ever been discrimianted against by the state, their Catholic neighbours or Republican terrorists. Or is this just the right of Catholics. ”

    Define “discrimination.” Catholics, by and large, have not had the requisite authority / power to “discriminate” against Protestants in Northern Ireland. The state kept a hieracrchy — Catholics at the bottom, Presbyterians above them, Anglicans above the Presbyterians. Without power, one does not have the power to discriminate.

    Please note, “discrimination” is a seperate issue from sectarian hatred — its is quite possible — natural, even, to hate the one who oppresses you, regardless of your ability to return the favor.

  • Doctor Who

    Dread

    Unionists have not had any power in Northern Ireland since Stormount was prorogued…so are we to ascertain that the British govt. continued to discriminate against Catholics in the absense of Unionist control.

    In an earlier post you state that the overwhelming number of Police where Protestants, so this proves discrimination. How many Nationalists felt intimadted from applying to join the Poice by Repulican terrorists, who by your logic never wielded any power in Northern Ireland.

    Not being able to administer executive power does not mean you do not have the means to wield it.

  • nmc

    How many Nationalists felt intimadted from applying to join the Poice by Repulican terrorists, who by your logic never wielded any power in Northern Ireland.

    Considerably fewer than were “intimidated from applying” by the fact that the police was a protestant force, protecting protestants while colluding with Loyalists.

    I grew up a catholic in Ballymena, where there was hardly a Republican terrorist about the place, (a few years ago, obviously). It was not the non-existant local paramilitary that turned me off the police, but the disgusting behaviour of the police over the past thirty years.

    Also in your above post on one hand you say Loyalists have no power as Stormont is closed for business, then in the next paragraph you attack your own point by saying that you do not need executive power to wield “it”. I will assume that you realise that the power wielded by Loyalists in Stormont is not the only kind of power, like for example the discrimination against catholics in any industry which was loyalist top heavy: Harland and Wolff for example.

  • Doctor Who

    nmc

    “It was not the non-existant local paramilitary that turned me off the police, but the disgusting behaviour of the police over the past thirty years.”

    So you gave a big cheer when they where murdered by the IRA.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Dr. Who: “Unionists have not had any power in Northern Ireland since Stormount was prorogued…so are we to ascertain that the British govt. continued to discriminate against Catholics in the absense of Unionist control. ”

    Your inability to take a historical view is your weakness. You limit yourself to the last several years, a clumsy artifice to “crop out” unfortunate historical facts. As noted previously, the police were disproportionately Protestant and are slowly recovering from decades of sectarian discrimination. Catholics are still disproportionately represented in the population at or below the poverty line. These are evidence of the discrimination.

    Taking a longer view, the history of Unionist gerry-mandering, intimidation and discrimination speaks for itself. The take-over of executive power by the British government does not magically undo decades of misrule.

    Dr Who: “In an earlier post you state that the overwhelming number of Police where Protestants, so this proves discrimination. How many Nationalists felt intimadted from applying to join the Poice by Repulican terrorists, who by your logic never wielded any power in Northern Ireland. ”

    A sophomoric argument on your part that only works if you honestly believe that Republican terrorists pre-existed the stimuli that empowered them, specifically the disenfranchisement of the Catholic minority.

    nmc: “Also in your above post on one hand you say Loyalists have no power as Stormont is closed for business, then in the next paragraph you attack your own point by saying that you do not need executive power to wield “it”. I will assume that you realise that the power wielded by Loyalists in Stormont is not the only kind of power, like for example the discrimination against catholics in any industry which was loyalist top heavy: Harland and Wolff for example. ”

    At this rate, Who will be convinced that white is black and die in a tragic accident at the next Zebra crossing…

  • Doctor Who

    Dread

    “A sophomoric argument on your part that only works if you honestly believe that Republican terrorists pre-existed the stimuli that empowered them, specifically the disenfranchisement of the Catholic minority. ”

    Wasn´t it the nobel peace prize winner John Hume who repeatedly said that there was not a single injustice in Northern Ireland to warrant the loss of a single life.

    Are you sure you want to let the terrorists off so lightly.

    My point about not having executive authority to exert power applies to all paramilitaries, who wielded their own justice on the communities they claimed to represent. The paramilitaries wielded extreme power, and became rich from it.

    Sinn Fein are the wealthiest political party in Ireland.

  • kensei

    “You neither care to challenge the fact that while the Cathiolic population has prospered numerically in Northern Ireland, including many migrants from the South, the numbers of Southern Protestants has all but disapeared.”

    A trend that dated from the 1850’s. In fact, it is only recently this 150-year old trend has begun reversing. It has more to do with the insistence of the Catholic Church of children of mixed marriages being brought up Catholic. You could argue that is discrimination, but it isn’t at the hand of the state.

    “This is hardly consistant with widespread claims of discrimination against Catholics. Why move to or indeed stay in a country which systematically discriminates and as others on these threads say practices genocide aginst you. Doesn´t make sense Dread. When institutional discrimination occurs the population of that people tends to dwindle, like Protestants in the Free State. There are examples of this all over the world.”

    One doesn’t really imply the other. People will travel almost anywhere and put up with almost anything to make ends meat; the amount of Irish taht move din England with signs “No blacks, No dogs, No Irish” is testament to that, or if you go further back the hostility to the wave fo Irish immigration in the US. Also, there were far too many Catholics in the North for it to have a real impact, particularly with the high birth rate.

    So to sum: you are talking nonsense.

  • Doctor Who

    Kensei

    So why all the mopery…Discrimination exists no one has a monopoly on it. When I visit Ireland i regularly encounter it…I encountered it on an almost daily basis while a student at Queen´s.

    On my last visit to Dublin my wife and I (who is Spanish from Bilbao) where refused entry to a pub, when I asked why the doorman greeted me with “Fuck off you Nordie Bastards”….Kensei this door man see´s you in the exact same light as do most from ROI.

    My wife was flummoxed..she was wondering how he knew she was from the North of Spain. We laughed about it but certainly didn´t mope.

  • NedKelly

    I’m sure Lenny Murphy would be turning in his grave with glee.

  • annonymous

    Kensei

    Of course on every door of every establishment in every village, town, city in England reads the words “No Irish”.

    The IRA have a lot to answer for the paranoia shown towards Irish accents in England in the 1970´s.

    Get over yourself why don´t you.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Dr. Who: “Wasn´t it the nobel peace prize winner John Hume who repeatedly said that there was not a single injustice in Northern Ireland to warrant the loss of a single life. ”

    Now you’re grasping at straws — unable to riposte, you seek to change the discussion.

    The old chestnuts run “If the law favors your case, argue the law; If the facts favor your case, argue the facts; If neither the law nor the facts, bang your shoe on the table.

    Do yourself a favor and put your shoe back on.

    Dr. Who: “So why all the mopery…Discrimination exists no one has a monopoly on it. When I visit Ireland i regularly encounter it…I encountered it on an almost daily basis while a student at Queen´s. ”

    I’m sure your sunny disposition and flawless social skills had *nothing* to do with it…

  • Kloot

    On my last visit to Dublin my wife and I (who is Spanish from Bilbao) where refused entry to a pub, when I asked why the doorman greeted me with “Fuck off you Nordie Bastards”….Kensei this door man see´s you in the exact same light as do most from ROI.

    Dr Who. Bouncers in dublin are not representive of the public as a whole. Trust me, I live in Dublin an ive to put up with those absolute mindless idiots on the doors every weekend.

    But here is a simple question, was he refusing you entry because you werent catholic or because you were from NI. You said “Nordie Bastards”, therefore, he wasnt discriminating against you because of you religion, instead he was descriminating against you because he had only 2 brain cells.

  • bertie

    nmc

    “Again Fair Dinkum’s contribution, while designed to rile catholic/republican posters, only serves to make me feel good about my situation. ”

    I have trouble thinking that Fair Dinkum is anything but a troll, indeed that he is anything but Fair Dinkum. 😉

  • Doctor Who

    Dread

    If you look back through the posts you will find that it was you who first led this thread From it´s origianl topic.

    My quote from John Hume is relevant as you atempted to justify murder beacause of a perceived discrimination in Northern Ireland.

    Your continued reference on these threads to my ethnic origin are also as annoying as your obvious arrogance.

    If you supply me your details I will send you a personality for Chanukah.

    My great Aunt survived the Nazi occupation of Poland and never once did anyone hear her mope.

  • George

    Doctor,
    perhaps you could forward some figures of your own to counter the ones I gave? You dismiss the figures of relief organisations, perhaps you can tell my why? Preferably with evidence to the contrary.

    Let’s forget Belfast for a moment then. Maybe you could explain the UVF’s level of involvement in the burning of sixty business premises in Lisburn in August 1920. Did it happen in your view?

    What did the London Daily News mean when it wrote that it had seen nothing like it “since the early days of the German invasion of Belgium”?

    Why did a certain UVF leader Lt. Colonel Fred Crawford bemoan the lack of a better class of working man after said event?

  • Doctor Who

    George

    It´s interesting that you take a keen interest in the History of Northern Ireland…I recall on another thread when the matter of the civil war arose, you seemed to want to airbrush it from history.

    As you said yourself the figures quoted in Dr. Bardons book where not reliable…my point is that these episodes exist in republican folklore to re-enforce sectarian hatred.

    While not denying acts of savagery and sectarianism have come from Unionist quarters, it is worth remembering, that if we where to commemorate every act of savagery by republicans we would be doing it every day, three times a day, all year round.

  • George

    Doctor Who,
    you wrote: “It´s interesting that you take a keen interest in the History of Northern Ireland…I recall on another thread when the matter of the civil war arose, you seemed to want to airbrush it from history.”

    I don’t recall ever mentioning the UVF in regard to the Irish Civil War. Care to provide a link to back up such a claim? Or whatever link you want.

    “As you said yourself the figures quoted in Dr. Bardons book where not reliable…my point is that these episodes exist in republican folklore to re-enforce sectarian hatred.”

    I never said Bardon was not reliable, I asked you to provide evidence that the figures weren’t reliable. Where did I say Bardon was unreliabe? In fact, I am still waiting for you to provide your figures. I am also still waiting for you to provide evidence that Bardon’s were not to be trusted.

    you wrote: “While not denying acts of savagery and sectarianism have come from Unionist quarters, it is worth remembering, that if we where to commemorate every act of savagery by republicans we would be doing it every day, three times a day, all year round.”

    I would love to see you provide comparative figures regarding unionist and republican violence in Northern Ireland 1920-1922 to back up this assertion.

    Can you back anything you have to say up?

  • Doctor Who

    George

    ” don’t recall ever mentioning the UVF in regard to the Irish Civil War.”

    I don´t like to be misquoted, please paly fairly.

  • fair dinkum

    The UVF and Specials undr the command of John Nixon crushed the Catholic uprising in Belfast shortly after Lord Carson’s great speech on July 12th 1920. Following the cowardly murder of a Lisburn native (decorated Great war hero who was in the RIC) in Co Cork, the workers of Belfast decided they had enough and cleansed the shipyards and other places of IRA fifth columnists. Because the IRA, then as now, were only good at shooting people in the back, very few IRA gunmen were killed in battle in Ulster. The Belfast IRA lost something like 4 members in all, if you include Joe McKelvey. However, because of the provocation of the fivers, casualties were high. Many IRA terrorists hid out in Belfast and the IRA were most probably involved in racketeering and other fun raising activities. Anyway, the UVF mem who stood up to them in Ulster and the other UVF hereoes who fell in Munster deserve to be honoured. If the IRA can pollute every corner with their monuments, why cannot the UVF be remembered with a simple wreath?

  • Doctor Who

    George

    “I would love to see you provide comparative figures regarding unionist and republican violence in Northern Ireland 1920-1922 to back up this assertion. ”

    Pointless, however look at the level of violence in the Free State and what happened in Northern Ireland in 1920´s pales into insignificance.

    But again republicans wish to airbrush this episode from history, as they killed more of their own than the Brits or prodies could ever do.

  • Doctor Who

    Fair dinkum raises an important point. While we are subjected to atempts to justify the Provo reign of terror. Have sporting bodies organise and entertain a martyrdom ceremony to murderers. Have a museum built on the site of a new multi million pound sports arena in their honour. Drive through villages in Northern Ireland and see memorials erected on their behalf by sectarian monsters. Be constantly told that you are paying the price for your uneighbourly attitude to Catholics, when the reality shows that the dole queues are as long on the Shankill than anywhere….be told that at the first sign of a nationalist majority you will be sold down the river, well because that´s democracy, when nationalists have not respected the same democracy since the foundation of the state, want a carreer in the Police forget it, while young Protestants where being blown to pieces answering the calls from nationalist citizens, Catholics didn´t join on the orders of the IRA, now if your a Prod don´t even fill out the application. Protestant business in a nationalist area, forget it all such people including farmers have been ethnically cleansed by Sinn Fein / IRA. Want to exercise your right to express your cultural identidy, forget it, Sinn Fein will import a few hundred people into the area and mope in front of the world media. Constantly be told that your culture is meaningless, you don´t have one, when it as rich and equally as valid as any other irish identidy, be reminded of the fact if the same terrorists who have been muedering your people for the last 35 years don´t get their way, they reserve the right to take up arms again. See the biggest bank heist in the history of europe in your home city, in order to fund the retirement fund of the IRA, allowed to take half the money by your own govt. Murderers rome freely in your streets, child killers the lot, people who said a legitamate target was someone who cleaned toilets in a Police station…the list is endless, then be subjected to shit like we nationalists are persecuted because we sometimes see a union flag, or we can´t walk down the city centre singing wolfe tonnes songs…………………………………………But spot a wreath that was sneakily laid in memory of old ULSTER VOLUNTEERS and woah the offence, the bigotry, fucking black and tans, get someone quick to write a bloody rebel song……………………………………………..please, please, please stop your fucking moping.
    By the way i´m not even a prod.

  • Stiofán de Buit

    This is bloody ridiculous. Can’t everybody just accept that both sides in the conflict in Ireland have, at various times, acted like complete bastards to the other side? Arguing over who was worse helps nobody. We need to be looking forward, not wallowing in the putrid mud of the past.

  • marty

    Stiofan,
    We need to be looking forward, not wallowing in the putrid mud of the past.

    But it’s what we do best in Ireland :O)

    Seriously though, I’m with you on this one.

    Dr Who,
    Fair dinkum raises an important point.
    What was it? I can only see a pile of tired old cobblers…

  • Ian

    “Can’t everybody just accept that both sides in the conflict in Ireland have, at various times, acted like complete bastards to the other side?”

    Having been an outside observer of the peace process over a number of years, it strikes me that the biggest single obstacle to a deal is political Unionism’s holier-than-thou attitude.

    Gerry Adams summed it up at St Andrews – “If we want to be part of the solution we have to face up to the fact that we were also part of the problem.”

    Unionists probably assumed he was referring to himself and Republicanism – their failure to recognise their own shortcomings is also part of the problem.

  • Ian

    To clarify, that should have read “the biggest single REMAINING obstacle”, although it has always been pretty high up on the list of problems.

  • Hello

    Anything at all which is identified with the UVF should be banned. It is an illegal terrorist organisation which has not yet even agreed to decommission. Where’s the uproar about them decommissioning? Imagine the paisleyites response if the Provos had laid some sort of wreatsh at the city hall pre-ceasefire.

  • Intelligence Insider

    The UVF are not in contention to be part of the government of this part of the United Kingdom, so any attempt to put them in the same category as sinn fein/ira is pointless. Maybe we should look at the figures for Roman Catholic people murdured by sinn fein/ira as opposed to Roman Catholics murdured by the UVF? Have a guess as to who killed more? Yep, the provos killed more Roman Catholics than the R.U.C., British Army and loyalist paramilitaries combined!

  • bertie

    II

    Excellent point!

    It doesn’t in anyway excuse the UVF etc and you weren’t.

  • George

    Doctor Who,
    “Pointless, however look at the level of violence in the Free State and what happened in Northern Ireland in 1920´s pales into insignificance.

    But again republicans wish to airbrush this episode from history, as they killed more of their own than the Brits or prodies could ever do.”

    Around 800 Free State soldiers died in the Irish Civil War. Between 3,000 and 4,000 died in 11 months. That is certainly true.

    How many of them do you think died because they were unionist and/or Protestant? Or if you want how many unionists or Protestants died?

    More than 10? More than 50? More than than 100? More than 1,000? What do you think?

    Naturally, I would be grateful for a source for your figure. If not, a personal estimate will suffice.

    Just in case you are talking about pre-Free State.

    How many Protestants/unionists died an “unnatural death” in what is today the Irish Republic between 1919-1924?

    Ball park figure. Less than 100, less than 500, less than 1,000, less than 100,000.

    I only ask because to date you have been singularly lacking on facts or figures but seem to be convinced of your position.

  • Conor

    As a nationalist I don’t have any problem if the UVF lay a wreath. As long as it’s a standard circular wreath with a simple card like the majority of them, without using the deaths of their supposed heroes to promote themselves or to posture around forming rank and the like. Screams to much like a PR stunt.

  • andy

    II
    do you have a source for that statement? I thought we had it raised here before (albeit not by you) and Henry94 disproved it?
    I know PIRA killed more than any other organisation, but not more catholics than all other organisations combined.

  • andy

    II
    actually have just checked myself and you are wrong. Repiblican groups as a a whole killed more (Catholics) than the security forces, but less than loyalists, and substantially less than loyalists and the security forces combined.

    Doesn’t mean they weren’t bad people of course….

    (source was sutton index on the cain database)

  • Billy

    Bertie

    Sorry, I don’t agree with you about II’s post.

    It effectively said “the UVF weren’t quite as bad as the provos” – that’s moral equivalence. One sectarian murder is one too many and these scum are all as bad as each other.

    However, I totally agree with you about the UVF wreath. I am Catholic but from a mixed family. Like many NI people from both traditions, I lost relatives in the forces during WWII.

    These UVF scumbags make me puke – trying to equate their drug dealing, brothel keeping organisation and it’s “brave” members who shot mostly unarmed Catholics with the real heroes of the Allied forces is scandalous.

    No decent person would be anything but appalled.