Not ‘good’ enough?

If the PA report is confirmed it could prove to be a headache for The Processors™. The UDA in South East Antrim are reported to be separating themselves from the rest of that particular organisation and have produced a document outlining their plans to create their own version of the UPRG, called Beyond Conflict[Added link]. Yesterday’s Sunday Life carried criticism from an unnamed “top loyalist source” – from the ‘good’ UDA natch. But having embraced the concept of a division between a ‘good’ and a ‘bad’ UDA, with accompanying funds, the British and Irish Governments might have difficulty dealing with this latest development. Update There is a, not unexpected, catch.. Added link.From the PA report

The body, involving an 18-strong executive committee drawn from across the region, is to reveal nine implementation plans on a range of issues.

These include strategies on drugs, housing, prisons, race relations and culture, murals, paramilitary activity, and attempts to ease tensions at interface districts.

Let the sunshine win…

Update Sunshine costs..

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  • loftholdingswood

    I am sorry that Tommy has decided to take this route as he knows it is doomed to failure. He needs to set aside personal ego and think of the greater good of his own area as well as the organisation as a whole. I have great respect for the bulk of the membership of South East Antrim who are being kept in the dark and denied a true voice within their own area. This will only cause dismay and worry as the vast majority only want to remain within the mainstream UDA and support the UPRG initiative not this latest cobbled together nonsense that Tommy is spouting. Greed and a desire to be top dog (in a political sense) has caused Tommy to lose sight of one thing; no one individual is superior to the organisation as a whole and no one individual can subvert the wishes of the membership.

    No good can come of this.

  • the other one

    deeply regrettable that Tommy has taken the head staggers and headed off on his own.

    There is no way that anyone can justify a wind down period of five years where the criminal activities of some continue in parallel with a community development approach.

    Even the context suggests that the term community development is not understood. Organisations dont do community development people do and the idea that sea will somehow take responsibilty for development is laughable given their track record.

    Work in South particularly in Finaghy and Taughmonagh shows how it should be done and in east occasionally they get it right (though the attitude of we will do everything for everyone so everybody else go away is a hindrance)

    Hopefully the work with Farset will allow everyone else to move on and focus on people and where they are going.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    LHW: “I am sorry that Tommy has decided to take this route as he knows it is doomed to failure. He needs to set aside personal ego and think of the greater good of his own area as well as the organisation as a whole. ”

    No honor among thieves, eh?

    LHW: “I have great respect for the bulk of the membership of South East Antrim who are being kept in the dark and denied a true voice within their own area. This will only cause dismay and worry as the vast majority only want to remain within the mainstream UDA and support the UPRG initiative not this latest cobbled together nonsense that Tommy is spouting.”

    Sure, they’re just a collection of wee mushrooms, innocent of anything, lost and alone. Beleive that and I’ll tell you another.

    LHW: “Greed and a desire to be top dog (in a political sense) has caused Tommy to lose sight of one thing; no one individual is superior to the organisation as a whole and no one individual can subvert the wishes of the membership. ”

    So get back in line or its the Shoukri treatment, with cudgels and mobs, eh? Maybe you haven’t noticed, LHW, but the UDA, by almost all accounts, are not a lot of deeply introspective fellas inclined to interal debate. If the membership. If Tommy didn’t believe he had some level of support, I sincerely doubt he would have hared off on this little frolic of his own.

    More likely, what we are seeing is the crumbling of the UDA council — without “the war” to keep them honest, the crooks are coming to the fore, each wanting his personal buy-out and a period of time to milk their rackets for the last penny.

  • P O’Neil

    ‘Good’ UDA. Now I’ve heard everything…. [ see commenting policy – edited moderator]

  • Yokel

    Never mind the cause lads, what about the money eh.

  • P O’Neil

    So much for freedom of speech (I know being in the UK, its nothing more than a euphimism) you Prods can dish it out, as soon as people start throwing it back, you go off cying to your mammies.

  • P O’Neil

    No matter how much you may try and dress it up, the UDA are still a murderous Brit deathsquad, and one that should be stamped out, not appeased by limp wristed, bleeding heart liberals.

  • austin

    P O’Neill must be the most obvious troll in slugger’s history.(which is saying something!)

    Getting back to the issue at hand, has Kirkham outflanked Jackie to make sure South-East Antrim gets a good slice of the ‘pay-off’ cake?

    Kirkham strikes me as being no dozer and I am sure that he wouldn’t sever his links with the mainstream UDA unless he was sure that nothing of his would be severed in return!

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Austin: “Kirkham strikes me as being no dozer and I am sure that he wouldn’t sever his links with the mainstream UDA unless he was sure that nothing of his would be severed in return! ”

    Its the same problem as the IRA has with their splinter groups — the structure is left in place to “keep the rank and file in line,” but, for political considerations, have lost their most efficient tool to do so — internal terror tactics. Of course, the IRA splinters want to pursue the “glorious revolution,” the UDA goombahs just want a pay-off and a few more years to run their rackets.

  • P O’Neil

    Why should we pay off a band of murdering, drug dealing thugs? Isnt that racketeering?? And after their first hand out how long will it be before they come back looking for more? The ‘pay off’ money would be better spent incarcerating these criminals, not placating them.

  • loftholdingswood

    Tommy is bright enough but this will lead nowhere for him. It is more a case of pique (annoyed at others taking a more prominent position in the UPRG and himself being called to account on policy issues) than anything else. Certainly it is not a vision of the future that he has ever shared with us before and one suspects it is a case the last roll of the dice and an attempt to capitalise on a piece of the pie. I wouldn’t underestimate his level of support but I certainly wouldn’t overestimate it either. My soundings are that the people behind this are but a tiny minority.

  • stewart

    Dread,

    Dread
    The Finaghy Crossroads project is an excellent example of a community relations initiative actually working.

    It is no secret that the UDA has been strongly supportive of this project from day one.

    Show me something of similar worth that the much-vaunted PUP have been involved in. Dictionary Dave can talk the talk but can he..? etc

  • Dread Cthulhu

    LHW: “It is more a case of pique (annoyed at others taking a more prominent position in the UPRG and himself being called to account on policy issues) than anything else. Certainly it is not a vision of the future that he has ever shared with us before and one suspects it is a case the last roll of the dice and an attempt to capitalise on a piece of the pie.”

    Like I said, no honor among thieves, eh?

    LHW: “I wouldn’t underestimate his level of support but I certainly wouldn’t overestimate it either. My soundings are that the people behind this are but a tiny minority. ”

    Then why get agitated, LHW? Tommy will get the spectacle of “the Shoukri treatment” of a couple hundren marching thugs and that will be that. The only way there is any trouble would be if Tommy *HAS* significant support and your boys find themselves bringing golf-clubs to a gunfight.

    stewie: “Show me something of similar worth that the much-vaunted PUP have been involved in. Dictionary Dave can talk the talk but can he..? etc ”

    Bless your heart, but where the hades does Dictionary Dave figure into it?

    One good deed does not excuse a lifetime of thuggery — just as Dr. Rev. No.

  • austin

    ‘My soundings are that the people behind this are but a tiny minority.’
    Lofty,
    does this mean that you will be attending a ‘Westlands’ style Leaving Do for Tommy and the Chihuahua Club any time soon?

  • stewart

    ‘Bless your heart, but where the hades does Dictionary Dave figure into it?’

    Dread, Ervine is regularly held up a shining example of a ‘good’ prod by bleeding heart types like you.

    However in terms of practical initiatives designed to improving life for interface communities, the PUP’s input amounts to f*ck-all squared.

    [Play the ball, stewart – edited moderator]

  • Pete Baker

    Just to note the added link in the original post to the group’s [quite well designed] website.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    stewart: “Dread, Ervine is regularly held up a shining example of a ‘good’ prod by bleeding heart types like you. ”

    Ye gods, austin, that I’m willing to call a spide a spide should disqualify me as a “bleeding heart type, just off the cuff. That I find paying crooks not to be crooks while allowing them five years to be crooks ridiculous does not make me a “bleeding heart.” It makes me someone willing to point out the Emperor has no clothes.

    stewart: “However in terms of practical initiatives designed to improving life for interface communities, the PUP’s input amounts to f*ck-all squared. ”

    Gee, I wonder why? Their mouth-piece is a all-but-unrepentant street fighter and they represent a collection of thugs, just like the UPRG does for the UDA. As I said before, one good deed does not redeem a wicked life.

  • loftholdingswood

    “does this mean that you will be attending a ‘Westlands’ style Leaving Do for Tommy and the Chihuahua Club any time soon?”

    Doubt it. Horses for courses and all that. I personally don’t see Tommy’s initiative gaining momentum but we shall see.

    “The only way there is any trouble would be if Tommy *HAS* significant support and your boys find themselves bringing golf-clubs to a gunfight.”

    We are committed to a non violent strategy so there will be no guns, no golf clubs. If I can survive listening to Sammy Duddy singing at the Cloughfern Social Club I can certainly survive anything including this latest minor split. The rank and file (of all areas) are sick to their back teeth of this and want no bloodletting.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    LHW: “We are committed to a non violent strategy so there will be no guns, no golf clubs. ”

    So its your position that the cudgel-wielding mass of humanity that marched on the Shoukri’s patch was, what, out for a late-night round at the links?

    LHW: “The rank and file (of all areas) are sick to their back teeth of this and want no bloodletting. ”

    And yet Loyalist violence still goes on in fits and starts… are they sicker some times than others?

  • loftholdingswood

    “So its your position that the cudgel-wielding mass of humanity that marched on the Shoukri’s patch was, what, out for a late-night round at the links?”

    As someone who was there (and presumably you were not) I can only state what I saw (as you can only state what you want to believe); no violence was used and no one had cudgel’s,sticks,stones or similar bits of jetsam.

    “And yet Loyalist violence still goes on in fits and starts… are they sicker some times than others?”

    As I have stated on numerous occasions we are committed to non violence. Fits and starts (as you put it) is a slight improvement over continuous surely? I can’t speak for your particular area (as I don’t know where you are from) but I can speak for mine and it has seen no gun attacks in the past 12 months, a 90% reduction in assaults (reported and non reported) directly attributable to a paramilitary organisation (and the two incidents that make up that percentage both involved drug dealers being put out so I won’t be shedding any tears, nor will my community), a landmark agreement on the removal of flags (which we kept to), a removal of the one and only paramilitary mural from a Loyalist estate and a liaison partnership with the local District Council, PSNI and statutory bodies to ease any tension or problems in the area. I call that progress but no doubt you will sniffle and moan and ask me how much is this costing and where is the money? We have received nothing and have put in for nothing nor do we see the need to put in anything so the famed £8mill (requested by Tommy) or the £195K for jobs for the boys is a moot point for us. It does not interest me one iota.

    We are moving in one direction and one direction only. It bothers me not the reaction to our direction. But it is happening despite what you wish to believe and it will continue.

  • interesting

    This all seems much more advanced than anything the UPRG has came forward with so far.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    LHW: “As someone who was there (and presumably you were not) I can only state what I saw (as you can only state what you want to believe); no violence was used and no one had cudgel’s,sticks,stones or similar bits of jetsam. ”

    Sure… and Frankie Gallagher wanting a peaceful march and the attacks on houses reported by the BBC were just an unfortunate coincidence?

    LHW: “As I have stated on numerous occasions we are committed to non violence. Fits and starts (as you put it) is a slight improvement over continuous surely?”

    Please reconcile these two sentences, LHW. If you “committed to nonviolence,” why paper over the fits and starts, LHW? It takes no energy to not attack someone.

    LHW: “I can speak for mine and it has seen no gun attacks in the past 12 months, a 90% reduction in assaults (reported and non reported) directly attributable to a paramilitary organisation (and the two incidents that make up that percentage both involved drug dealers being put out so I won’t be shedding any tears, nor will my community)”

    Gee, there were only a couple attacks and those were matters of free-lance vigilantism, so they don’t really count… Is that what you’re saying, LHW? BTW, how do you track “non-reported assaults?”

    LHW: “I call that progress but no doubt you will sniffle and moan and ask me how much is this costing and where is the money?”

    No, its progress and I won’t dispute that. That said, the problem with Danegeld is you never get rid of the Dane. Paying thugs not to be thugs while permitting them time to wind down their thuggery seems a trifle odd, especially for a group “committed to non-violence.”

    LHW: “We are moving in one direction and one direction only.”

    Uh-huh… then why to brigades keep trying to fall out, requiring “peaceful protests” and “shows of strength” to keep them in line, LHW? If it were all so cut and dried, seeing as y’all are “committed to non-violence,” why the theatrics?

    LHW: “But it is happening despite what you wish to believe and it will continue. ”

    Sure, an’ the Shoukri bros. bowed out out of the goodness of their hearts and because Frankie said “pretty please with sugar.” I’ll save my applause for something worth applauding. The IMC, last I checked, said you weren’t there yet. When you get there, I’ll applaud.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    In amounts to danegeld, interesting. The UDA in SE Antrim wishes to be paid try not to do those things that they currently do. The UPRG has not yet made so naked a “request.”

  • stewart

    Dread,

    I can sense your confusion and panic as you do not know how to deal with the positives proposals outlined by LWH.

    It is not so easy for you to mouth off your useless middle-class soundbites when you are presented with incontrovertible evidence of the positive moves being made by one element of loyalist paramilitaries.

    In practical terms, what have you ever contributed towards improving the lot of interface communities?

  • Dread Cthulhu

    stewart: “It is not so easy for you to mouth off your useless middle-class soundbites when you are presented with incontrovertible evidence of the positive moves being made by one element of loyalist paramilitaries. ”

    Taking down a few tattered banners and painting over a mural are not “incontroverible evidence of positive moves,” stewart. They are, by their nature, transient. Banners taken down are just as easiily put back up. A mural painted over, once dry, can be painted over again.

    In the end, little of substance has changed. The drugs are still dealt, the violence still occurs, albeit at a slower rate. The spides are still spides.

    One element of loyalist paramilitaries are demanding 8.5 million pounds to prevent those enterprises they are currently involved in — drugs and violence. The crooks want to wind down their operations and expect the tax-payer to subsidize them to do so.

    stewart: “In practical terms, what have you ever contributed towards improving the lot of interface communities? ”

    Having never being part of the problem, for starters. Can anyone in the UDA make that claim?

  • rapunsel

    It must be a joke? £ 8 million quid. As for the well designed website– as the old saying goes ” paper doesn’t refuse ink” Several comments to make both on the story as reported here and on the BBC news this evening. Tommy Kirkham seems to think the UDA faction he represents is some sort of best practice community development organisation in waiting. They’e just been sidetracked for a few years into murder, extortion , drug dealing and other criminal behaviour. But it’s community development that they do best. Please don’t make me sick. Everything about this initiative is anti community development. As for the three areas described on the website– Castlemara( Carrickfergus I think) , Craigyhill ( Larne) Monkstown( Newtownabbey) . I have it on good authority that the first two benefited from funds through the Peace Programme for the employment of workers — the empowerment project in Larne subsequently collapsed with power struggles thought to contribute and in Carrickfergus I hear the UDA men there are more interested in keeping control of their areas than actually participating in genuine community activity to met local needs. One final thing. The UDA through the 1970′ and 80’s — come on and have a trip down memory lane– not one mention of the victims of this organisation and their families. Seems to me that Tommy Kirkham really is living in some sort of paralell reality.

  • stewart

    Dread, clearly you are so content wallowing in your lazy and complacent attitudes that you could not know anything of the fine work carried out by groups such as the Finaghy Crossroads Group, North Belfast Interface Network and Suffolk-Lenadoon Interface Group, to name but a few.

    How telling that you feel so far removed from the situation that you so readily admit that you have never been part of the problem.

    How nice and cosy for you to be well away from the communities that have been torn asunder by the conflict. Pity your detatchment doesn’t prevent you from enthusiastically criticising those who are actually trying to make a difference in these areas.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Stewart: “Dread, clearly you are so content wallowing in your lazy and complacent attitudes that you could not know anything of the fine work carried out by groups such as the Finaghy Crossroads Group, North Belfast Interface Network and Suffolk-Lenadoon Interface Group, to name but a few. ”

    Ah, playing the man… tsk tsk tsk — cantt come up with a counter-arguement, so you must turn to insults. Why should I get excited because the thugs decide they will cut down on their thuggery? And what is the logic of putting moeny in the hands of the thug’s political sock-puppets?

    stewart: “Pity your detatchment doesn’t prevent you from enthusiastically criticising those who are actually trying to make a difference in these areas. ”

    I’m not detached, Stewart… I merely have a low tolerance for the absurd. To be blunt, expecting praise and applause for what is essentially an extortion request is nonsensical. The SE Antrim Brigade wants 8.5 million pounds for the opportunity to fix those things they have broken, with the codicil that oh, by the way, society should not expect them to quit commiting crimes right away.

  • loftholdingswood

    Dread,

    The latest IMC report will note improvement and I have long since wanted them to “sub-divide” their findings into an area by area basis so that the general public can see where the problems are stemming from. But that is a side issue. I do expect a degree of praise from the IMC on the work being done on the ground but also a recognition that things are not there yet. And of course I have never claimed that they were. I have always stated that there has been progress.

    People in working class areas can well understand what I mean by “non reported” assaults. I mean the type formally carried out by paramilitaries and not reported to the PSNI for reasons of fear of further reprisals. So when I say a significant reductions in these type of assaults I mean exactly that. The proverbial dogs in the street know when this type of thing happens, they know what it is for and they acknowledge with us the need for these type of things to stop. So in a sense my own statistics are clearer than the PSNI’s. But we are splitting hairs. I can’t promise that this type of activity will stop completely as that would be foolish but I can tell you that it is discouraged, other things are looked at including not only restorative justice but utilising UPRG representatives to tackle issues such as anti social behaviour, drug abuse,etc. through honest dialogue with the people concerned. It works in 90% of cases.

    As for the £8million quid? not my plan. You would best ask Tommy where he derived that figure from.

    You do seem obsessed with the North Belfast. The BBC reported disturbances in the area and that was simply the renegade group kicking off and threatening Loyalists who wanted to remain mainstream. The gathering of supporters merely showed the renegades that beating our colleagues would be frowned upon. I repeat, not a fist was raised. Not only did we liaise with the PSNI but also a bewildered looking group of Republicans who came down to see what the fuss was about. There was no problem at all once things were explained. But this has all been discussed before so it is getting repetitive. Your ingrained mindset just wants to trot out the same old mantra that you want to believe; thugs,low life’s, Neanderthals. And by constantly treating every Loyalist as such you will make progress how exactly? Broaden your horizons and raise your spirits for there is a new day dawning.

    There will be further announcements later in the week from the mainstream.

  • loftholdingswood

    Stewart,

    I know the good work being done in Finaghy and it is to their credit. They are a progressive bunch down there. These schemes are broadening out to “the sticks” and much good work is being done in Banbridge, Dromore,Ballynahinch and beyond. Long may it continue.

  • stewart

    Dread,
    you are clearly labouring under the misapprehension that I am arguing in favour of Tommy and Co. getting the £8 million quid.
    I most certainly am not. However I am in favour of paramilitaries moving towards real cross-community progress such as the projects mentioned in my previous post as opposed to your type of contribution -i.e. sniping from the sidelines from a very safe distance.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    LHW: “The latest IMC report will note improvement and I have long since wanted them to “sub-divide” their findings into an area by area basis so that the general public can see where the problems are stemming from.”

    IOW, you want the UDA to remain together as a movement, hence the “peaceful protest” against the Shoukris and the dismay at SE Antrim’s splinter, but judged individually when it suits your purpose? Blowing hot and cold with the same breath has never garnered much in the way of admiration.

    LHW: “People in working class areas can well understand what I mean by “non reported” assaults.”

    I know exactly what you meant, LHW. I merely point out that if they “unreported,” how does one quantify them for comparison between periods? Unless one is somehow involved with the perpetrators of said activity, I can’t imagine how its tracked. Do you have weekly meetings where the perpetrators report their misdeeds, so they may be quantified? A weekly staff meeting for the thugs to report their productivity of the past week?

    LHW: “I can’t promise that this type of activity will stop completely as that would be foolish but I can tell you that it is discouraged”

    No doubt with the threat of the same sort of action that you’re seeking to discourage… ironic, isn’t it?

    LHW: “I repeat, not a fist was raised.”

    On your word as the political mouth-piece for Loyalist paramilitaries? This I should believe?

    LHW: ” And by constantly treating every Loyalist as such you will make progress how exactly? Broaden your horizons and raise your spirits for there is a new day dawning. ”

    I’ll believe it at sun’s rise, not before. I’m sure the fellows from UPRG put on a good show, but they are still the sock-puppets for an organization tied to drugs, extortion and violence. When the UDA can sing religious music in four part harmony, then I’ll start to believe they’re choirboys.

    LHW: “There will be further announcements later in the week from the mainstream. ”

    Would that be the good UDA or the bad UDA?

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Stewart: “However I am in favour of paramilitaries moving towards real cross-community progress such as the projects mentioned in my previous post as opposed to your type of contribution -i.e. sniping from the sidelines from a very safe distance. ”

    Where else would one snipe from, Stewart? Of course its done at a distance — that’s why its called sniping.

    However, what I am doing is not sniping, its pointing out the absurdity of this whole scenario. One does not hire the crooks not to commit crimes, Stewart.

    As for who and how much, 8.5 million for Tommy’s set or the 33 million promised to Loyalist neighborhoods previously, it amounts to the same thing — paying the crooks and thugs to not be crooks and thugs. Likewise, based on the IMC and the organized crime reports, there hasn’t been much to boast about — what was the best you came up with — some flags and a mural?

    As I said, I simply have a low tolerance for the absurd.

  • Pete Baker

    rapunsel

    “Several comments to make both on the story as reported here and on the BBC news this evening…”

    Not entirely sure what you mean there… but my opposition to both the British and Irish governments’ approach to dealing with paramilitary and criminal groups here is fairly well documented in the Slugger archives – and some of the links in the original post… lofty will, I’m sure, confirm that.

    I had tried to point out in this post how that approach was being used in this latest demand by one faction of this particular paramilitary and criminal group… [note to self – try again, fail better..]

    As for stewart’s enthusiastic endorsement of certain organisations.. as I’ve said before, the embedding of the same leaders of those groups – for some time – within communities through the application of public funds, along with political capital, and the imprimatur of both governments is definitely not a step forward.

  • stewart

    Dread,
    It is reassuring to see that you still cannot see the bigger picture and that you are still obsessed with your flags and murals mantra.
    Reasearch what is actually involved in the various cross-community initiatives that I have mentioned and you will see that these amount to a lot more than your disparaging and ignorant description .

    I note your distaste at the thought of funding being given for community projects on either side of the sectarian divide.

    Better that we fund white elephants like the CRC to make you and your ilk feel that things are getting better.

    I rarely venture onto Slugger as I am too busy in the real world. The likes of you sitting here day in day out all week talking bull reminds why.

  • interesting

    Dread

    The principle of danegeld was conceded long ago in the process.

  • stewart

    Pete, I was going to say that I was surprised at your assertion that I enthustically endorse certain organisations but when I thought about it, I’m not really.

    What did I say earlier about lazy and complacent attitudes from the middle-classes?
    Please check back on my earlier posts and then post me back with details of where ‘I enthusiastically endorsed certain organisations.’

    What I do enthusiastically endorse is productive cross-community initiatives that impove the quality of life for those unfortunate enough to live on the interfaces. I look forward to you producing the evidence to back up your statement.

  • Pete Baker

    “What I do enthusiastically endorse is productive cross-community initiatives that impove the quality of life for those unfortunate enough to live on the interfaces.”

    You say potato..

    btw, stewart. I realise you don’t comment often.. but Slugger’s Commenting Policy can be boiled down to a simple rule, in place to ensure as productive a discussion as possible – Play the ball, not the man.

    In other words, try to keep the discussion civil.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Stewart: “It is reassuring to see that you still cannot see the bigger picture and that you are still obsessed with your flags and murals mantra.”

    They were *your* example, not mine.

    Stewart: “I note your distaste at the thought of funding being given for community projects on either side of the sectarian divide. ”

    Really, you do need to read more closely — I disparage the thought of paying for thugs to behave in a socially acceptable fashion. Socially accpetable behavior should not have to be purchased. It should be the norm.

    Stewart: “Better that we fund white elephants like the CRC to make you and your ilk feel that things are getting better. ”

    Ah, but they don’t make me feel better. As I have stated before, the trouble with Danegeld is that you seldom can get rid of the Dane. Pay the extortionist and all you do is whet his appetite.

  • stewart

    Pete,
    I note that you have failed to produce any evidence to substantiate your disgraceful slur that I enthusiastically endorse certain paramilitary groups. You have cowardly sidestepped the challenge to ‘put-upor shut-up’ by hiding behnd Slugger’s commentating policy.

    What’s the more serious issue Pete?
    Making an entirely concocted allegation against me or my being forthright in my condemnation of those who opposes attempts to reduce sectarian strife.
    It is indeed a strange set of standards that you keep. Pete.

  • Pete Baker

    stewart

    I don’t mind being criticised for something I have written.. as long it is something I have written and not something I haven’t.

    You’ve now changed your accusation to claim that I asserted “[you] enthusiastically endorsed certain paramilitary groups”. Initially you wrote – “I was surprised at your assertion that I enthustically endorse certain organisations..” – guess which is the more accurate quote?

    I try to be as exact as possible. I’m sorry that you’ve misinterpreted my words to mean ‘certain paramilitary organisations’ – that wasn’t what I said, as I pointed out when I quoted your own comment back to you – “What I do enthusiastically endorse is productive cross-community initiatives that impove the quality of life for those unfortunate enough to live on the interfaces.”

    As I added then, you say potato..

    And, for the record, my standards are quite consistent thanks.

    They’re also well recorded here in the Slugger archives for anyone to check… including my criticism of the Finaghy group and the involvement there of Jackie McDonald, among others, as well as the Irish President.

  • Bugs

    To all those engaged in this debate who appear entirely ignorant of conflict transformation iniatives within the constituency close to the PUP, but not PUP backed, as most of this work is community rather than politically based, read on.

    Go to http://www.linc-ncm.org/eactf.html or check out on google the East Antrim Conflict Transformation Forum which has been running for over two years, mainly based on voluntary work from community representatives and certainly not looking for £8 million.

    Hopefully this will rectify the ignorance demonstrated in his thread so far. The initiative is well known to David Ervine who has given it support since its inception.

  • stewart

    Pete, I would be genuinely interested to hesr the detail of your criticims of the Finaghy (Crossroads?)group.

    Thanks

  • stew

    still curious, Pete