US used high tech weapons in Iraq?

Here’s a disturbing story out of Iraq. RAI in Italy have produced this English language version of a documentry speculating on the possible use of lazar or microwave weapons on a civilian bus back in 2003. Hat tip Dualta (see below)!

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  • “Bad Americans” – the same lame mantra from the Euro MSM.

    Has RAI done a detailed exposure of the € millions paid by our dear Italian friends to Iraqi terrorists in order to procure a release from captivity of Italian hostages???

  • Dualta

    Mick,

    Thanks for posting the link. For those who are interested, here’s a transcript of the Rumsfeld press conference shown in the documentary. He and General Myers more or less admit to the use of these weapons in Iraq.

    The statements by Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld and General
    Myers excerpted from a 2003 archived press conference are especially
    revealing:

    JOURNALIST: Mr. Secretary, can I ask you a question about some of the
    technology that you’re developing to fight the war on terrorists,
    specifically directed energy and high-powered microwave technology?
    When do you envision that you can weaponize that type of technology?

    DONALD RUMSFELD (appearing noticeably uncomfortable with the
    question): In the normal order of things, when you invest in research
    and development and begin a developmental project, you don’t have any
    intention or expectations that one would use it. On the other hand,
    the real world intervenes from time to time, and you reach in there
    and take something out that is still in a developmental stage, and
    you might use it.

    JOURNALIST: But you sound like you’re willing to experiment with it.

    GENERAL MYERS: Yeah, I think that’s the point. And I think we have
    from the beginning of this conflict・I think General Franks
    [commander of U.S. forces in Iraq] has been very open to looking at
    new things, if there are new things available, and has been willing
    to put them into the fight, even before they’ve been fully wrung
    out・And we will continue to do that.

    The reports are that a bus full of civlians was stopped by US forces at a checkpoint and turned back. Very shortly after leaving the checkpoint the passengers on the bus started to explode. The driver, the only survivor, made his way to a hospital where medical staff attended those in the bus. They testify on the documentary that there was no evidence of conventional weapons use, bullet holes, bomb or shell damage, on the corpses or the bus itself.

  • Dualta

    David,
    Your whataboutery is sickening. How can you possibly dismiss these reports in this way and retain any semblance of self respect?

  • Mick Fealty

    Thanks for the transcript Dualta. But let’s just stick to the story(ies) too!!

  • Prince Eoghan

    David,
    Your whataboutery is sickening. How can you possibly dismiss these reports in this way and retain any semblance of self respect?

    Posted by Dualta on Jul 26, 2006 @ 01:00 PM

    I actually believe he was quite restrained there Dualta, going on past record and the war-mongering blood-thirstiness of his own blog.

    Methinks that big business may have asked it’s stooges in the US military to experiment with this. After all with dozens being killed every day, who would notice another dozen or so?

  • idunnomeself

    On the contrary it sounds like a machine meant to do something else (like explode mines) might have gone wrong

    Although there are so many ifs and buts in the whole thing I don’t expect any of us will know for years what really has happened, if anything

    Dualtha, I don’t think that quote ‘more or less admits’ that they are being used

  • i have it difficult to believe. To create a laser weapon like that would be very difficult. Also I doubt the injuries that would be created from such a system.

    Most of what is protrayed in film about laser weapons is far from true. For instance you will never see a laser beam no matter what colour it is. The reason is that you only see a light when it is deflected into your eye. For instance when you would put smoke through the beam. But otherwise you wouldn’t see a thing. unless it is very very powerful and it can deflect of dust particles. In which case you probably wouldn’t see it as you would go blind.

    Others like the american missle shield thing can’t work.

    Microwave weapons as they call them or Masers that they actually are fairly weak and have been around since the 40s

    The are other reasons to doubt it but I don’t have the time to run through them.

  • nmc

    To create a laser weapon like that would be very difficult.

    To be fair, nukes, space shuttles etc. are pretty hard to make. Doesn’t mean they don’t exist though. And the fact that we don’t know about them doesn’t mean a thing. I’m sure few people in Nagasaki or Hiroshima would have believed in the force of a nuclear (or nukuler in American), weapon, but they learned they were mistaken pretty fast when their cities were razed to the ground.

  • ulick magee

    David Vance – I’m sure if I stood close to you I could hear the ocean.

    Now American has another conflict to test their weapons in – lebanon. I’m sure the Israeli army have their big catalogue of american weapons out….yes that looks good

    Mr Vance – A bad american is someone who defers the principles of democracy for short term economic gain.

    There’s a big difference between believeing yourself to be a democracy and acting like a facist regime.

    Run that up your flag pole!

    Good to see Bertie boy down south pulling the Israeli ambassodor in to explain what part of the red cross flag means blow me up

  • Not really credible. Robert Watson-Watt was trying to develop a radio frequency death ray when he invented radar – one of his assistants did some sums and showed that the amount of radio energy required to kill a man at a reasonable distance was absurdly huge.

    Reason: not only does the intensity vary with the inverse square of the distance, but a very large proportion of the transmitter output would be reflected off the target. This last gave Watson-Watt an idea.

  • To create a laser weapon like that would be very difficult. I mean reinventing the laws of physics difficult

  • Ciaran Irvine

    David Vance – I’m sure if I stood close to you I could hear the ocean

    Here, have my shoe, it will be as much use to you as he is.

    *apologies for completely off-topic obscure reference*

  • Dualta

    If you watch the documentary you will see that the US have already developed such weapons and we can even see demonstrations of them against missiles.

    What type of energy is being is irrelevant. What is relevant are the testimonies of the medics at the hospital and the other eye witnesses.

    It should be established what exactly happened to the people on that bus. What type of weapon were they hit with and was it deliberate?

  • michael

    ‘the intensity vary with the inverse square of the distance’

    this is only for regular electromagnetic signal that propagate away from the source in all directions (a sphere). In the ‘mazer’ that we are talking about, the EM waves are all traveling in the same direction. its a wonderous trick of physics how they do it, but ill save that for another day. anyways, a lazer is not subject to the same inverse square laws.

    but a very large proportion of the transmitter output would be reflected off the target

    this is a mazer. the m stands for microwaves. microwaves are less prone to being reflected by an object. Note though that they are still very likely to be reflected.

    the question here is not whether lazers could kill a person. they could. it has been demonstrated that they can blow oup missiles traveling at several hundred Km/h. the problem that was encountered when developing this technology was where to get the energy (and there was a considerable ammount needed) from. many lazers/masers get/got there energy from huge chemical baths. however these were very bulking and thus difficult to transport. as far as im aware advances in super conductor matericals have been able to reduce the size. perhaps even to something that could be carried by a soldier. but thats just speculation.

    the one thing that concerns me about the validity of this report is that the people supposedly started to explode some period of time later. i cannot for the life of me think why this would be. think of it like putting something in a microwave, it heats up when the thing is on. when its off it stops heating. thus will only explode when it is cooking.

    ‘Most of what is protrayed in film about laser weapons is far from true. For instance you will never see a laser beam no matter what colour it is. The reason is that you only see a light when it is deflected into your eye. For instance when you would put smoke through the beam. But otherwise you wouldn’t see a thing. unless it is very very powerful and it can deflect of dust particles. In which case you probably wouldn’t see it as you would go blind’

    yea, lazers/phasers on tv have to be visible to look cool. but it is concievible that if a lazer were powerfull enough, it could excite the atoms in the air around it causing them to glow.

  • @Michael: Lasers certainly could. We are talking radio-frequency here though. Of course microwaves are reflected by objects – that’s why the Apache helicopter has a millimetre wave radar.

    @Dualta: It certainly is relevant what kind of energy is meant to have been used, as it makes the difference between this being a real story and a non-story. If you want my guess, there was no exotic weapon, and the “exploding people” were being hit by sniper fire with a very high velocity round.

  • Hands up all you lot who wear tin-foil hats?

    Yeah, I thought so.

    There is NO evidence for this highly speculative story though I would commend the use of any technology that hastens the departure of terrorists. Of coure for the moral relativist there is no such things as a terrorist – apart from George W – right?

    Now back to your bashing Israel….

  • Dualta

    Alex said:

    “[i]If you want my guess, there was no exotic weapon, and the “exploding people” were being hit by sniper fire with a very high velocity round.[/i]

    Alex, in the documentary, the consultant from the hospital who claims to have been there when the bus arrived and to have examined the dead and their remains says that there was no evidence of any bullets being used. No damage to the bus. No bullet holes. Body parts scattered all over it and embedded into the ceiling. Hardly consistent with sniper fire.

  • Irish in America

    Here we go again….US using “Evil new weapons” in Iraq. Sounds like some of the conspiracy theories floating around mideast websites about secret US weapons that helped them easily invade Iraq.

    /I hate my current government/invasion of Iraq, but come on.

  • The Daily Kos but with a shade of green? 😉

  • They “exploded”. Hence no classic bullet wound. I don’t believe there was “no damage to the bus” – that wouldn’t be consistent with a directed energy weapon, anyway.

    Basic science lesson – whether you theorise a laser or a microwave/radio frequency weapon, both work by transferring lots of energy to the target – making the target hot. Rather than kinetic energy, like a bullet, electromagnetic energy is used. Why didn’t it catch fire? Why didn’t the tyres melt? Why didn’t the water in the radiator boil?

    Nonstory.

  • michael

    alex

    Lasers certainly could. We are talking radio-frequency here though. Of course microwaves are reflected by objects – that’s why the Apache helicopter has a millimetre wave radar.

    as i said in my first post. lazers are formed by electromagnetic radiation of which RADIOWAVES, MICROWAVES, infra-red, the visible spectrum, ultraviolet, x-rays and gamma are all members. all em is the same, it just has differnt freq/wavelengths.

  • Dualta

    Alex [i]They “exploded”. Hence no classic bullet wound.[/i]

    I’ve seen people shot by weapons from pistols to assault rifles to high velocity sniper rifles and not one of them ever exploded.

    [i]I don’t believe there was “no damage to the bus[/i]

    So you reckon the doctor and the other eye-witnesses are lying?

    [i]Why didn’t it catch fire? Why didn’t the tyres melt? Why didn’t the water in the radiator boil?[/i]
    I don’t know. Why doesn’t my microwave oven melt plastic or some forms of rubber?

    Have you watched the documentary?

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Dualta: “I’ve seen people shot by weapons from pistols to assault rifles to high velocity sniper rifles and not one of them ever exploded.”

    Depends on the load they were hit with, Dualta. Large bore sniper’s rifle, say a Barret M-82a or its Russian counterpart, an exotic round and, yes, it will give the appearance of an explosion, although it would leave some physical evidence.

    However, a laser or maser (or even a bananafanafofaser) would have left other evidence, such as damage to the bus, burning / cooking of the victims, etc.

    Dualta: “I don’t know. Why doesn’t my microwave oven melt plastic or some forms of rubber? ”

    It does, however, interact badly with metal, should you put a fork or spoon in the bowl, does it not?

    As for your microwave, it would likely be a matter energy through-put. That said, the amount of energy to start popping folks in the fashion you describe would be sufficient to damage, say, the foam padding of the bus seats.

    Dualta: “So you reckon the doctor and the other eye-witnesses are lying? ”

    Did they actually see the Americans and their dreaded “death ray?”

  • michael

    why were the americans (supposedly) attacking the bus anyway? was it a military bus?

  • Dualta

    Dread: “[i]Depends on the load they were hit with, Dualta. Large bore sniper’s rifle, say a Barret M-82a or its Russian counterpart, an exotic round and, yes, it will give the appearance of an explosion, although it would leave some physical evidence.[/i]

    If you watch the documentary and listen to the testimony of the doctor at the hospital he and others say that there is no sign of any conventional weapon use in the deaths of those on the bus.

    They also describe bodies having exploded. They go into detail and it does not suggest that they were shot.

    I’m also not convinced that a sniper rifle of any velocity, even using a dum-dum could decapitate a body.

    [i]Did they actually see the Americans and their dreaded “death ray[/i]

    No, nor did they claim that it was a death ray of sorts. They reckoned that some sort of new weapon was being used, but they didn’t know what.

    Again, the point I’m making is that there are serious allegations being made about weapons being tested on civilians. The quality of the evidence being provided in the documetary warrants further investigation.

    Watch the documentary. You might agree.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Dualta: “If you watch the documentary and listen to the testimony of the doctor at the hospital he and others say that there is no sign of any conventional weapon use in the deaths of those on the bus. ”

    Hence the “exotic” round. A .50 caliber round is capable of carrying an explosive charge that would tear-up the shall (and the target) rather impressively and distort / disguise the wound.

    Dualta: “I’m also not convinced that a sniper rifle of any velocity, even using a dum-dum could decapitate a body. ”

    It could. It’d take a hell of a shot, but it could. Again — explosive round, or a mercury-cored round would make it easier, but even a plain vanilla military “hardball” round could do the trick. All you need it sufficient power to shatter the bones in the neck and enough velocity to hydrostatically shock the flesh. A .357 Magnum round causes a “temporary” hole the size of a basketball, give or take. If the connective tissue is smaller than that hydrostatic wound, the flesh cannot retract / collapse back into its normal form, seperating the head from the body.

    Dualta: “Again, the point I’m making is that there are serious allegations being made about weapons being tested on civilians. The quality of the evidence being provided in the documetary warrants further investigation. ”

    WHAT evidence? Yes, they are dead. But you have no evidence to link the deaths to the Americans, nor do you have anything more than some inductive reasoning as to “some new weapons being tested on civilians.” You have the word of some hospital folks — what are their qualifications? Were there autopsy reports to support these allegations, or is this all just someone recollections? Again, why no damage to the bus? Where is the bus now, btw?

    This sounds to me like some sci-fi movie silliness conjured up to try to make the Americans prove a negative.

  • Mojo

    And here I thought we were the silly ones sitting up in the canopies throwing turds at the tourists.
    Sapiens, right?

  • your never too old to recieve praise

    Michael Fealty,

    The best most interesting topic for discussion I have seen on Slugger for a very very long time.

    exellent bravo encore

  • “I actually believe he was quite restrained there Dualta, going on past record and the war-mongering blood-thirstiness of his own blog.”

    ……. and not a single “Vichy”, either.

  • Funny the anti-bush brigade use science when they talk about intelligent design or stem cells but the minute that science suggests that Bush didn’t do something evil. Suddenly they question it. Fascinating.

    You can get explosive bullets. Considering the damage they would cause it would be difficult to tell if a bullet went in our not.

    As has been mentioned the energy used is a vital issue. The energy needed to create a laser powerful enough to do that kind of damage would require a massive power plant. Something that is not suitable for a military viacle due to the sheer size needed.

    Basically what michael and alex are saying

  • “the war-mongering blood-thirstiness of his own blog.”

    Yes, seeking to fight and defeat terrorism is so passe, don’t you think? Rather be an ever so sophisticated liberal, guzzling lotus-flowers and dreaming of fiendish US weaponry used on innocents.

  • Moochin photoman

    “Yes, seeking to fight and defeat terrorism is so passe, don’t you think? Rather be an ever so sophisticated liberal, guzzling lotus-flowers and dreaming of fiendish US weaponry used on innocents.”

    David unfortunately there are plenty of people who can’t dream anymore coz they got killed by US supplied weaponry.

    Sotto Vocco

    Someone blow in his ear and give him a refill!

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Mooch: “David unfortunately there are plenty of people who can’t dream anymore coz they got killed by US supplied weaponry. ”

    As opposed to Soviet, Syrian or Iranian weaponry, which, no doubt, simply makes the target feel bad about themselves for a while?

    The Lebenese brought Hizbollah into government, left them armed and let them drag them into this adventure. Once you’re in government, you’re no longer entitled to perform freelance violence.

  • “Yes, seeking to fight and defeat terrorism is so passe, don’t you think? Rather be an ever so sophisticated liberal, guzzling lotus-flowers and dreaming of fiendish US weaponry used on innocents”

    ….. and still not a “Vichy” in sight.

    Oh Brave New World, give us back the Lion of Mid Ulster!!!

  • Cato

    I thought this site was supposed to be ‘Notes on Northern Ireland Politics and Culture’ and I think it is noticeable that the issues posted here which are outside that remit generally have a very left-wing slant.

  • “The energy needed to create a laser powerful enough to do that kind of damage would require a massive power plant.

    This little critter was prototyped in 1998 by us and operationally tested through 2001 in Israel.

    Back in 1998 it took a convoy of 16 wheelers to set the chemical laser up.

    Mike, our first hydrogen bomb in 1952, was the size of a railroad boxcar. By 1958 we had it shrunk down to the size of the Polaris warhead. In 1962 we operationally tested it in Dominic I.

    It’s been nearly 10 years since the laser project was first hardware.

    Connect the dots ………

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Assuming arguendo that you are right about the miniaturization potential for this weapon, it still doesn’t explain the rest of the puzzle, Jim. The alleged lack of damage to the bus, for one.

    A chemical laser of that powere should have cut up the bus like sandwich meat.

    Now, I know they were also playing with a microwave-based anti-riot system… that might explain the gross physical damage, but that level of microwave activity should have also cause a host of other problems.

    Another question — why wasn’t the driver effected?

  • Cato

    Good question DC. As far as I can see from this post, this documentary leads us to believe that the Americans ‘exploded’ a number of Iraqis on a bus without damaging the bus or injuring the driver. Sounds like the sort of thing Translink need for when the Nightliner gets out of hand on a Saturday night!

  • Dualta

    Dread,

    Even if such rounds could in theory ‘explode’ a person, listen to the testimonies of the people in the documentary and ask yourself if bullets were the cause of the deaths.

    Also listen to the testimonies of the other people throughout the documentary and to the Rumsfeld press conference where he and General Myers admit to the existence of such weapons and to their willingness to use them in Iraq. No denials were issued of the weapons existence or their deployment.

  • It is my lot in life to infuse some truth into this science-challenged group of wannabees.

    My first clue that something was amiss was when our illustrious host misspelled laser. I had the same feeling when the StoreMedia project engineer walked into the room and wrote “lazer texturing” on the whiteboard. They were bankrupt less than three years later.

    It’s Light Amplification through Stimulated Electron Radiation, dammit. We also have masers using microwaves.

    We were working on this stuff in this valley during the 80’s and some of the technology developed has even made it into the public sphere like the Star Wars rail gun which the Okie was working on at Westinghouse-Sunnyvale morphed into the Superman Ride of Steel at Six Flags.

    The real story here is not that we used Star Wars to kill a busload of civilians at a US Army checkpoint only that we killed a busload of civilians.

    I agree with LeMay that the process used doesn’t make much difference.

    The alleged lack of damage to the bus, for one.

    Oh Christ, Phredy, give it up. Pointing out every foot you shoot off is damned boring now.

    You did not see the bus. You only saw the slag left over from melting it. Scully and Mulder disappeared it.

    A chemical laser of that powere should have cut up the bus like sandwich meat.

    Without the bus and just the burned bodies and slag left over it is difficult to prove. The Army Zeus 10kW laser could do a lesser amount of damage since they can burn through a HE shell casing from 80 meters away. We have three incountry for EOD. Shoot yourself in the foot with it a couple of times and get back to me.

    why wasn’t the driver effected?

    Well, maybe nobody shot at him. Christ, you tossers sound absolutely disappointed the poor bastard lived through it. Are you worried about leaving witnesses at the crime scene?

  • Both Rumsfield and the other guy were totally flumoxed by the question as they didn’t know anything. Stop trying to look for evilness where there is one. The main guy with the laser theory in iraq was a violinist. Enough said.

  • “The main guy with the laser theory in iraq was a violinist. Enough said.”

    At last, the post of the week.

  • Harry Flashman

    So let me get this right, Dr Evil and the fiendish Americans have invented a deadly death ray “lazar” weapon, they presumably spent gazillions on this thing and they debut it on a bunch of civilians on Mustapha’s express coach service from Kirkuk to Baghdad?

    What, like they didn’t think of taking out Kim Il Sung, or whacking Boy Assad up in Damascus or rearranging Ahmaddinnerjacket’s DNA while he’s making his latest “I’m gonna nuke the Kikes” speech?

    It all seems a bit strange folks.

    Anyway as someone else pointed out, why is it legitimate to kill someone with a round from an AK47 or simply by cutting their heads off but if you use high tech light beams it’s somehow more evil?

    When my conscience is bothering me about scoffing a high calorie pizza can I alleviate my guilt somewhat by heating it in my oven instead of the microwave?

  • I think if we did have a death ray, we would’ve first used it on the protesters at Shannon airport. They’d a blowed up real good too, see’in as alcohol has a lower boiling point that water.

    Really folks. One minute you think Americans are as dumb as a bag of rocks, then the next you’ve got us using death rays that spare bus drivers. Get a grip!

  • Dualta

    ch in texas, kill the drunken Paddies? Nice. Also, the people who are making the running with this are the California Center for Strategic Studies. Like it or not there are some people in the US with the guts to exercise their democratic right to scrutinise their government.

    Harry Flashman: [i]why is it legitimate to kill someone with a round from an AK47 or simply by cutting their heads off but if you use high tech light beams it’s somehow more evil?[/i]

    I’m not saying that it is more evil. It is a crime beyond mention to cut someone’s head off or murder them with a round from an AK47 and those responsible should be before a war-crimes tribunal or a civilian court of law.

    Now, if it is true that an experimental weapon has been tested against civilians then that would constitute a war crime of extreme depravity. It is one of the things done by the Nazis which has set them apart in history as one of the most depraved movements ever.

    Again, the allegations in the documentary are serious and there are credible individuals, (yes, even violinists can be credible), who are willing to put themselves forward to give accounts of what they witnessed. They deserve to have their allegations investigated further.

  • Again, the allegations in the documentary are serious and there are credible individuals, (yes, even violinists can be credible)

    Violinists can be credible as violinists. Would you let him do open heart surgury on your mother no of course not as he is not an expert on the thing.
    Where were the physicist debating the science of the issue.
    Yes they deserve their allegations to be listened to but doesn’t mean that they should be believed when it goes against scientific theory.

    Dulta you are not being objective you are using your hatred of Bush to cloud your judgement. How about thinking and reading for a change.

  • Dualta

    Simon,

    I have never written anything anywhere which suggests that I have a hatred of George Bush. I don’t hate him and I’m approaching this rationally.

    How do the allegations go against scientific theory? We know that high-energy weapons exist because, firstly we watched them being demonstrated in the documentary on the manufacturer’s own videos and, secondly, because when asked about them at the press conference Rumsfeld and General Myers confirmed their existence.

    So what’s scientifically impossible here?

    We know that there are microwave weapons in the US army’s arsenal and we know that they have the power to explode missiles and mortar rounds as they fly through the air.

    We also have Donald Rumsfeld and a senior general admit that they are willing to use such weapons in Iraq and then we have credible witnesses giving accounts of multiple civilian deaths which, they claim, do not seem to be as a result of the use of conventional weapons and which may be explained by the use of high-energy weapons such as those mentioned above.

    But those who support this war will dismiss these allegations off-hand. I think it was you Simon who mentioned something about lack of objectivity.

  • “It’s been nearly 10 years since the laser project was first hardware.

    Connect the dots ………”

    And maybe the dots lead nowhere.

    The NYT just reported that the joint Isreali-US project was shelved. Where do you find a shelf that will hold six city busses?

    Meanwhile, I’m busy ironing the creases out of my tinfoil hat.

  • Dualta

    Nice find Jim.

    I wonder if those who have been claiming that such weapons are impossible to make will come back to accept that they were wrong, or are they out celebrating that magnificent hit against the Islamofascist scum in Qana.

  • “I wonder if those who have been claiming that such weapons are impossible to make”

    Well this one was proven possible but as the article noted there is a cloud deck 30% of the time in northern Israel, mooting a laser weapon. It was also a sitting duck and a ecological disaster waiting to happen. But TRW made nearly 90 million on it, so the military-industrial guys came out ahead.

    I just wanted to set the record straight since I brought the thing up.

    “or are they out celebrating that magnificent hit against the Islamofascist #### in Qana.”

    I hope not. Everyone has lost on each of these many incursions in to Lebanon, the Israelis as well as the Palestinians and Lebanese. I have used the Sideshow Bob example with the rake ad nauseam but lately I am taken with Einstein’s definition of insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

    When inmates have taken over the asylum, are things ever going to get better?.