An un-KAI-nee coincidence?

The prominent display of the letters ‘KAI’ on the drums of a loyalist flute band participating in a contentious Orange Order parade near the Short Strand on Saturday has made the front page of the Andersonstown News. The Rathcoole KAI (Kill All Irish) were a notorious loyalist tartan gang which operated in the loyalist Rathcoole area during the 1970s. However, an Orange Order spokesman has insisted that the ‘KAI’ lettering is a reference to the Danish footballer, Kai Johansen, who played for Glasgow Rangers during the 1960s/ early 1970s.

  • Prince Eoghan

    Kensei.

    I spent the best part of two days on this thread dancing with realist. He likes to keep it real, as long as you are answering all the questions. Let me ask you, how much clarity have you had in return? All smoke and mirrors I’m afraid.

    Patience is a virtue. If you are getting somewhere, no?

  • Realist

    kensei,

    “Oh, do fuck off. I have already explained the difference twice”

    There is no difference whatsoever.

    Both are exclusive organisations, which believe that their brand of the same religion is the truth.

    Simple as that.

    “Correct. If those rules are anti Catholic, then you are supporting an anti Catholic organisation by and by following the rules, being anti Catholic. Thank you for making my point for me”

    The OO is unashamedly anti Catholicism – it believes the tenets of the Catholic faith to be “fatally flawed”.

    “But the K of C doesn’t explicitly set out to limit the growth or influence of any other Church, or label one particular one “wrong”. It refers only to itself. There are literally, thousands of inferior ones”

    Can you post the rules and oathes of the K Of C by way of comparison, so that we can discuss this further?

    “No, they show clearly the exact precise opposite”

    You are wrong IMO. Read the rules again, bearing particular attention to the bit that clearly states:

    “ever abstaining from all uncharitable words, actions or sentiments, towards his Roman Catholic brethren”

    “Again. Thank you for making my exact points for me. Good god! Am I getting through to someone”

    No problem.

    You haven’t influenced my thinking on the subject one iota. I have a mind of my own thanks, although it is clear that we can sometimes think alike.

  • Realist

    Prince Eoghan,

    If you have any questions outstanding that you feel I haven’t answered openly and frankly, please feel free to post them again.

    Better that, than your little hissy fits when the questions have gotten a little tough for you.

    Fancy a natter on the McConville thread about thuggery?

    On second thoughts, forget it – I’m off on my holidays shortly!

  • kensei

    “Both are exclusive organisations, which believe that their brand of the same religion is the truth.

    Simple as that.”

    HONK! What’s that noise? It’s my patented wrong-o-meter going off. Oh God! It’s catching fire. My objection is not that the OO is pro-Protestant, which would be equivalent, it’s that it is anti-Catholic. There is no Catholic equivalent to this. Do you need a diagram?

    “The OO is unashamedly anti Catholicism – it believes the tenets of the Catholic faith to be “fatally flawed”.”

    Excellent. You continue to make my points for me. It’s how it acts on that statement that makes it a real killer, though.

    “Can you post the rules and oathes of the K Of C by way of comparison, so that we can discuss this further?”

    No, I have no idea. But this is whataboutery and has no influence on the OO. If the KoC states anywhere anything equivalent to the OO I’ll condemn it. But I’d prefer we stick to the point and stop bringing themmums into it. It’s irrelevant.

    “You are wrong IMO. Read the rules again, bearing particular attention to the bit that clearly states:

    “ever abstaining from all uncharitable words, actions or sentiments, towards his Roman Catholic brethren””

    No, you read the bit before that and pay considerable attention to it, which is the key bit. The presence of a tenuous escape clause changes nowt.

    “You haven’t influenced my thinking on the subject one iota. I have a mind of my own thanks, although it is clear that we can sometimes think alike. ”

    Of course I haven’t. I await the fateful day when I do actually get threw to someone, though. It doesn’t change the fact of anything I’ve laid down here though, and as I said, I really wish it was someone you’d listen to telling you and not me. It looks like the option selected by OO supporters is slow death, rather than ditching AIS. But I suppose we already knew that.

  • Prince Eoghan

    Bon voyage le enfant;¬)

    Love it when I hit a nerve. I would have more luck nailing jelly to a wall than getting you to answer your own question. As you know fine well.

  • darth rumsfeld

    So.We have hopefuly drained all the bile out of this thread and can now have a sensible debate.

    I think all Unionist bloggers have recognised that there is clearly an unacceptable element that attaches itself to parades, and to a greater or lesser extent have disassociated themselves from KAI ( not KIA- the crap Korean cars). They have almost all stated that there is a vast amount of good in the Orange institution, and on this and other threads we have highlighted aspects of community building. We have made a comparison with the GAA, which has -to us- certain unacceptable aspects, and many noble and praiseworthy aims, but we do not call for the banning or facing down of the exercise of that culture.

    Nationalists, by contrast, seem unable to distinguish between the good and bad elements in the parading tradition, seem intent on belittiling it as an expression of culture, and have not yet found anything worth criticising in the GAA’s ethos.

    If paramilitary links are bad in parading then they are bad in gaelic games surely? And has it not yet occurred to anyone that the very reason paramilitaries have infiltrated the loyalist bands is precisely because they couldn’t make any inroads into Orangeism? As for the rhetoric of the Orangeman’s obligation, what’s so different from the RC church official designation of me as a heretic? Just how many RCs practise the logical outworking of that judgment? very few of my RC friends do- and I venture that most mature people do not have a theology degree nor are they obsessed with proslytising or converting their “opponents”. Every Orange meeting includes a prayer for Roman Catholics, which I fully understand will offend many RCs, but you don’t get too many KKK meetings seeking the conversion of black people. And it’s not that long ago that there was a prayer that Ireland return to the arms of Holy Mother Church- a similar if (as usual) more subtle request of the Almighty.

    If most Unionists/Orangemen feel contempt for blue bag carrying KAI chanting morons are we not entitled to be taken as genuine? And if we can’t have parity of esteem, how about a little parity of contempt for republicans in the GAA who have named grounds, trophies and clubs after people who have killed members of our community? The truth is IMHO that you can’t be a victim if you recognise shades of grey. We’ve got to be black and you’ve got to be white.And no matter how genuinely held, that’s just not a grown-up position.

  • Realist

    kensei,

    Remove yourself immediately from that whirlwind of confusion and contadiction you have created for yourself 🙂

    IMO, it is anti Catholicism, not anti Catholic.

    “There is no Catholic equivalent to this”

    How do you know?

    When asked to post the rules and oathes of K Of C, you said:

    “No, I have no idea”

    “But I’d prefer we stick to the point and stop bringing themmums into it. It’s irrelevant”

    It was Bob McGowan, not I, who brought other secretive organisations “into it”.

    “No, you read the bit before that and pay considerable attention to it, which is the key bit. The presence of a tenuous escape clause changes nowt”

    I have – several times. It displays unashamed anti Catholicism. When taken in the round, the text makes it absolutely clear that the issue is with Catholicism not the Catholic.

    That is my point.

    Enjoy the weekend.

  • bing

    The KAI (kill all irish) band from Rathcoole might be providing the pre-match entertainment at the next n.i home game if the supporters get their way.

    It seems that n.i football supporters have decided that the IFA’s ‘football for all’ campaign is a waste of time.

    n.i fans have been erecting n.i football flags alongside loyalist paramilitary flags in many areas. The n.i football team are being commemorated alongside king billy, the orange order & the uvf & uda.

    It looks like all the dressing up & spin over the last 18 months about the supporters being ‘less’ sectarian’ than previously is rubbish.

    No surrender, rule britannia, norn iron, quis separabit, kill all irish

    All pretty acceptable terms among the fanbase.

  • kensei

    “How do you know?”

    I’d have signed up.

    “It was Bob McGowan, not I, who brought other secretive organisations “into it”.”

    Then you have absolutely no need to keep going on about then.

    “I have – several times. It displays unashamed anti Catholicism. When taken in the round, the text makes it absolutely clear that the issue is with Catholicism not the Catholic.

    That is my point.”

    Fair enough, and I accept the argument is in a sense symettrical to what I am saying about the OO.

    Mine is that, regardless, the line is blurred in the society we live in and how the organisation acts on it moves it from one to the other. It is needs institutional change, and the entire section has no place in the modern world.

  • Realist

    Bing,

    If you want some balanced debate on the sugject you raise, I would refer you to the discussion currently taking place on the OWC website.

    I suppose then, that if one GAA fan or Celtic fan has leanings towards paramilitarists, then they all have.

    http://www.gaelsport.com/html/club/newfullstory.jsp?c=612&newsID=13938&p=n

    I let you know how the application to the IFA to host the Billy Wright Memorial Trophy for 11 year old kids goes.

    Have a great weekend.

  • darth rumsfeld

    “n.i fans have been erecting n.i football flags alongside loyalist paramilitary flags in many areas.”

    ..and by that logic Mossad have erected all the Israeli flags in NI, and Hamas put up a tricolour in Kilrea last year.
    Tsk tsk, bing, you’ll really have to try harder if you want to debate with the big boys. At least taigs has an intellect to deploy in his arguments

  • kensei

    “Nationalists, by contrast, seem unable to distinguish between the good and bad elements in the parading tradition, seem intent on belittiling it as an expression of culture, and have not yet found anything worth criticising in the GAA’s ethos.”

    I think, if you go back and read my posts, I have identitfied precisely what behaviour I think is both unacceptable. The problem is not that is “a few bad elements”. The problem is insitutional. If it was the odd lodge trying to force it’s way down somewhere agressively, or refusing to speak to residents, or if the links to paramilitaries were something you heard rarely about – then you could calss it like that. If the Organisation didn’t ban people for going to Catholic funerals, then you could make that suggestion. But it’s not, it is institutional in both deed and attitude. And that basically obliterates any good it does. That is the real shame.

    “If paramilitary links are bad in parading then they are bad in gaelic games surely?”

    It is, but stop the whataboutery. Focus ont he topoic at hand, the OO. Imagine how much better you could arguments about the GAA if you actually had the moral high ground, because you’d been through a process of change.

    “If most Unionists/Orangemen feel contempt for blue bag carrying KAI chanting morons are we not entitled to be taken as genuine?”

    Sure. but it isn’t enough. the words ring hollow when there is nothing to back it up. f the lodge refused to parade with that band, if people refused to attend the parade, then it would be seen as genuine.

    “The truth is IMHO that you can’t be a victim if you recognise shades of grey. We’ve got to be black and you’ve got to be white.And no matter how genuinely held, that’s just not a grown-up position.”

    That is basically a load of balls.

    Here is a 5 step plan to transform the OO.

    1. Remove any mention of Catholicism from it’s constitution. If you absolutely can’t live without obsessing over us, change it to a ban on attending Catholic communion, as that fudge satisfies everyone.
    2. Voluntarily agree not to march any of the contentious parades for one year to show good faith.
    3. Arrange face-to-face discussions with all residents groups to get agreement to march along contentious routes.
    4. If a paramiltary symbol is displayed on a march, make the stewards halt until it is removed. Refuse to march with paramilitary bands.
    5. Develop some links to Cathoic Charitable organisations and run some cross community charitable events with them.

    Oh, and 6, PR the shit out of it.

    Maybe some places are already doing some of it now and it just needs extended everywhere. Some of that would be painful. But the net result is that your image would improve, your standing in my community would go up and you’d probably get to march where you like without trouble. And if you didn’t, people would look a lot more favourably on you. I also do not see how that compromises your culture at all.

  • bing

    “I let you know how the application to the IFA to host the Billy Wright Memorial Trophy for 11 year old kids goes.”

    Its not likely to be called the billy wright trophy, perhaps they might name it after the former uvf godfather in mid ulster

    The Jameson Cup, perhaps

  • darth rumsfeld

    “If it was the odd lodge trying to force it’s way down somewhere agressively, or refusing to speak to residents, or if the links to paramilitaries were something you heard rarely about – then you could calss it like that.”

    !!!!!!!!!!!!!
    First we have too many parades, then when 98% are uncontentious you say the problem’s institutional.
    Loads and loads of discussions with all sorts of local groups- just not with those set up by SF and headed by ex(?)-IRA members (that’s the group that has killed over 300 of our members in case you forgot).
    The bands with paramilitary connections that are engaged in any orange parade is miniscule, and the proof is that many loyalist bands have been banned from participating. At worst , again 95% of bands have no connection whatsoever
    But still you say it’s institutional. So the 55 of GAA clubs with paramilitary connections must make it institutionally paramilitary too, then. that’s not whataboutery- that’s adopting your test. Don’t pretend that you’d ever concede to me the moral high ground, if you you don’t apply a universal standard.

    Your plan to save the Orange order (somehow I don’t pick up too much sincerity in your aim)-

    “1. Remove any mention of Catholicism from it’s constitution. If you absolutely can’t live without obsessing over us, change it to a ban on attending Catholic communion, as that fudge satisfies everyone.”.
    That would be just as bad/good to our detractors. I mean, are you really that keen to have us at your funerals ( and many orangemen do already without any action being taken against them) ?

    “2. Voluntarily agree not to march any of the contentious parades for one year to show good faith.”
    -what does “good faith” mean?. If something is a genuine cultural expression why does it need to have good faith. of course, it something is coat-trailing and cynical supremacism- which we are told is the net worth of our culture- then no amount of community-masaging would invest it with good faith. And do you really imagine this gesture would result in anything other than a refusal the following year from residents?- oh yeah, we could go sit on the moral high ground, while you stewarded the lodge through Ardoyne.

    “3. Arrange face-to-face discussions with all residents groups to get agreement to march along contentious routes.”
    Except they’ve already said that they won’t necessarily ever agree-so it’s not the outworkings of a parade- they just “don’t want a Jaffa about the place (Copyright ad nauseam Marty McG)”. “No talk no walk” will simply become “Talk, no walk”.

    “4. If a paramiltary symbol is displayed on a march, make the stewards halt until it is removed. Refuse to march with paramilitary bands.”
    Every year a list of bands is removed from approved list for that very reason. Lodges have been disciplined for flouting the guidelines. And it’s the job of the police to remove anyone displaying a paramilitary symbol- a criminal offence- and we heartily wish the police would do their well paid job. Perhaps you would prefer the parade stop at Ardoyne shops for a sixty year old Orangeman to ask a bullnecked 20 stone youth to remove a flag, while the tension grows and the peelers tuck into another fish supper safe in their landrovers.

    “5. Develop some links to Cathoic Charitable organisations and run some cross community charitable events with them.”
    The largest ever donations to the Ulster Cancer Foundation and the Hospice Movement have come from the Orange and the Black- no strings attached- numerous events for these have been cross-community, as has been so widely publicised that you cannot possibly have forgotten.

    Thanks but no thanks for the suggestions. It’s the usual give give give but don’t expect to take that means you’re not really interested in a fair outcome.

  • darth rumsfeld

    “55 of GAA clubs”
    should read 5% of GAA clubs

  • frank

    The majority of bands taking part in the mini 12th parade in east Belfast have paramilitary connections.

    The parade only contains bands associated with the modern uvf.

    EBPBFB, Shankill star fb etc…..

  • Darth: Your anti Catholic Protestant only group insists on stomping through Catholic areas where you are not wanted. The GAA does not play games in Loyalist areas.Nor does it stomp through Protestant areas. Its members go to GAA matches and are regularly attacked going to and coming from said games. Some have been abducted and murdered from GAA clubs. And plenty of GAA members went to early graves too, cheered on their way no doubt by those who believe in walking on the 12th and who support Glasgow KAI Rangers

  • kensei

    “First we have too many parades, then when 98% are uncontentious you say the problem’s institutional.”

    2% of loads is still loads,and the problem is what happens when you are challenged. The pattern is consistent where you are challenged.

    “Loads and loads of discussions with all sorts of local groups- just not with those set up by SF and …….”

    You don’t get to choose the other side, and you may not like, but SF members have human rights too. If you want to go from principle over reason, do so by all means but stop whining when your parades don’t get down, because you haven’t a leg to stand on.

    “The bands with paramilitary connections that are engaged in any orange parade is miniscule, and the proof is that many loyalist bands have been banned from participating……r”

    5% is still too much. The OO is still not clear enough on it, and they still take limited action.

    “But still you say it’s institutional. So the 5% of GAA clubs with paramilitary connections …..”

    That’s whataboutery and I’ve already answered it. GAA clubs linked to paramilitarism tend not to be in the news so much, though. The GAA could certainly make changes to be more open to Unionism, without compromising it’s ethos. I note also, that it has made a start.

    “Your plan to save the Orange order (somehow I don’t pick up too much sincerity in your aim)-”

    I am completely sincere. Weren’t you just ranting about not taking people at face value, darth?

    “That would be just as bad/good to our detractors.”

    In which case get rid of it all and stop obsessing.

    “I mean, are you really that keen to have us at your funerals ….”

    I’m not, but if they are friends with Ketholics their family may be. As I said some places may do some things, but it needs to be everywhere.

    “-what does “good faith” mean?……”

    What?

    “of course, it something is coat-trailing and cynical supremacism- which we are told is the net worth of our culture- then no amount of community-masaging would invest it with good faith.”

    Darth, I know this is hard for you, but stop talking to the people in your head and talk to me. I have laid out specific problems I have with the OO. I have laid out what I think would fix it. Try to debate in that context.

    “And do you really imagine this gesture would result in anything other than a refusal the following year from residents?….”

    If nothing was done, then there would the same problems. That is why point 3 exists. The purpose of point 2 is to signal a new start. It tells peope you are serious about change. It is not absolutely necessary, but your brownie points would go up and everyone would be all impressed with you.

    “Except they’ve already said that they won’t necessarily ever agree-so it’s not the outworkings of a parade- …..”

    Not true. Where dialogue occurs, things tend to egt worked out, or get a lot closer to being worked out. See the ABOD. They might never agree to the current OO, but they might live with the new Improved OO (TM). That is the purpose of the exercise.

    And the thing is, if you talk, get nowhere you can go back to current position and you’ve lost nothing.

    “Every year a list of bands is removed from approved list for that very reason. Lodges have been disciplined for flouting the guidelines. And it’s the job of the police to remove anyone displaying a paramilitary symbol- a criminal offence- …..”

    Yup, exactly right, I would. If procedure was made clear before hand, then it is less likely to cause trouble. Get the band to play “Get rid of that flag you fuck” or something. But of course, we’ve followed two and three, so tensions are reduced anyway.

    And if you still think it is impractical, then have the relevant lodge loudly release a formal apology afterwards.

    “The largest ever donations to the Ulster Cancer Foundation and the Hospice Movement…..”

    Honestly never heard about them. And while the big things are welcome, what is needed are lower level links at a community level.

    “Thanks but no thanks for the suggestions. It’s the usual give give give but don’t expect to take that means you’re not really interested in a fair outcome.”

    No, it is what I think would really help the OO. I can’t give in this instance, because that would mean tolerating Aggression, Intimidation and Sectarianism. But I fully accept some parts of Nationalism share those problems, and I’m perfectly willing to listen to suggestions on them. And I have made references to Nationalism starting a process of change, because it is not yet complete. But the moment, we’re talking about the OO.

    But sure, stick with doing exactly what you’ve done for the past 10 years. How’s that working out for you?

  • Prince Eoghan

    Did anyone catch the huns V huns bash at windsor park the other night? Must have went well as there was nothing reported that I have seen. All the merriment was a prelude to the upcoming “orange-fest”.

    Wonder if the “billy boys” was sang? and if so are Rangers expecting to donate more money to EUFA in fines, for having the dubious pleasure of hearing their fans sing such fine songs.

  • lib2016

    Krystalnacht was simply an attempt to revive the ailing German glass market and it was a shame that over-sensitive Jews objected to a few harmless racist calls for mass murder. Why didn’t they sit back and enjoy the pretty uniforms and the community building efforts of the public spirited marchers with the rest of us? Simply no sense of humour, these untermenschen!

  • Proud

    And I’m telling you WHAT THEY THINK DOESN’T CHANGE THE FACTS.

    Did I say that it did? Words, mouth etc… As I have already said to you, you may be right or you may be wrong with your views on the Order. There are many facts and statistics that can be used to justify various opposing views on the Order.

    My point is that unless you make some sort of effort to understand the complex nature of unionism/loyalism in NI and the mindset of its constituents, we won’t make any advances on the parades issue and we can look forward to more summer violence to the detriment of everyone.

    As I have already said, my bugbear is not with your attitude to the Order – there are many on slugger who are far less reasonable. Rather, it is with your attitude to change.

    It’s all very well for you to say there can be no concession to Agression, Intimidation and Sectarianism and I commend you for your strength of feeling. However it is not adequate to simply tell the Order and its members that there must be institutional change on their part due to their own inherent sectarianism, because they from their own perspective see themselves as being/doing none of these things, see their organisation as being/doing none of these things, and will therefore more or less disregard your comments as being unfair and unjustified.

    To reiterate: I am not trying to debate the nature of the Order; I don’t think we will ever see eye-to-eye on that one! I am more interested in pointing out why I feel that your argument will cut no ice with protestants in general because it is based on your own POV and will be nigh-on impossible for protestants to relate to. I say your argument is one-sided and overly generalises against a large number of people; you say, hard luck – evolve or perish. That’s a fair enough response, but I don’t think it’s really going to get us anywhere fast.

    I know the answer. Emotional attachment and cognitive dissonance. The problem is you don’t now [sic] the answer.

    ‘Cognitive dissonance’ indeed – I would hope that if nothing else debating this issue has given you an insight into what might be described as the liberal loyalist mindset, and has helped you realise that we’re not all ‘ATAT’ psychopaths engaging in, er, ‘stomp-fests’.

    I dislike needing to repeat myself, and strong dislike wilful misrepresentation. You get treated like anyone else, a slightly inferior equal.

    An inferior equal? There’s a pickle…

  • caulfield

    I think Kensei makes some constructive suggestions for the OO. When I was a kid I dont remember any paramilitary bands at the twelfth. To me it seems completely unacceptable. Change is needed. I cant help thinking, however, that the whole OO thing would have just gone away if it hadnt been for Drumcree and subsequent parades.
    At the same time if the nationalist /republican posters on here cant see a problem with The Hunger Strike Cup then they need to take their green tinted specs off. No different to me than KAI on a drum – no different at all.

  • frank

    Sons Of KAI flute band

    http://www.fileden.com/files/25836/20060701somme/upload_034.jpg

    Why do the orange order try to lie about loyalist paramilitary participation in their parades.

    The East Belfast PBFB site has the following comment on the parade in East Belfast last week.

    “It hardly seems a year since last years parade, time goes by very quickly and we started the day off by meeting at the Longfellows bar to parade to Cherryville st. to the uvf war memorial garden to lay wreaths on behalf of the East Belfat Ulster Volunteer Force.”

    I note the comments of a Short Strand Residents Group spokesperson prior to the parade

    “This is not just an ordinary march. It has been taken over by the UVF. This is a UVF parade for County Down and County Antrim. There is an overt paramilitary input within the parade.

    http://www.irelandclick.com/news/news.cfm?id=19777

    Orange order or uvf ??

    Or both !

  • rathcoole kai

    So martin McGuiness is not chief of staff of the IRA Right, He was the minister of education. So for all you anti anything prod KAI means. Kai Johansen But republicans turn every thing around to suit there wingin needs the grass is not green enough for you crying cunts

  • rathcoole kai

    SURE BOBBY SANDS WAS IN THE KAI FFS

  • Prince Eoghan

    RK.

    Maybe if Martin was the minister of education when you were at school. He may have initiated a programme to promote tolerance, and to rid Unionism of the casual hatred that many have obviously taken on in place of a hobby.

  • kensei

    “Did I say that it did? Words, mouth etc… As I have already said to you, you may be right or you may be wrong with your views on the Order. There are many facts and statistics that can be used to justify various opposing views on the Order.”

    Fortunately, there are none can that justify various pro-Orange Order views. You implied and continue to imply that the fact that the OO is an Aggressive and Sectarian organisation is a matter of opinion. It isn’t. It’s demonstrated fact.

    “My point is that unless you make some sort of effort to understand the complex nature of unionism/loyalism in NI and the mindset of its constituents, we won’t make any advances on the parades issue and we can look forward to more summer violence to the detriment of everyone.”

    I understand and appreciate many of the reasons behind support for the OO, honestly I do. I am sure that even just tradition in itself is particularly powerful, and the feling that if you don’t march you are dishonouring your ancestors. Plus there the community aspects, the oppurtunity to meet people and gain some standing. Etc etc.

    The problems is that it isn’t worth a bag of oats while it engages in Aggression, Intimidation and Sectarianism. While those things exists, it doesn’t matter it has good aspects, because the bad ones obliterate them. Honestly, I’m tring to help you.

    “As I have already said, my bugbear is not with your attitude to the Order – there are many on slugger who are far less reasonable. Rather, it is with your attitude to change.

    It’s all very well for you to say there can be no concession to Agression, Intimidation and Sectarianism and I commend you for your strength of feeling. However it is not adequate to simply tell the Order and its members that there must be institutional change on their part due to their own inherent sectarianism, because they from their own perspective see themselves as being/doing none of these things, see their organisation as being/doing none of these things, and will therefore more or less disregard your comments as being unfair and unjustified.”

    That is all very well, but I don’t see that there is any way I can sugarcoat this, and I feel it is important I get the strength of feeling over. I don’t believe either, that if I did sugarcoat in some fashion, it would make a blind bit of difference.

    “To reiterate: I am not trying to debate the nature of the Order; I don’t think we will ever see eye-to-eye on that one! I am more interested in pointing out why I feel that your argument will cut no ice with protestants in general because it is based on your own POV and will be nigh-on impossible for protestants to relate to. I say your argument is one-sided and overly generalises against a large number of people; you say, hard luck – evolve or perish. That’s a fair enough response, but I don’t think it’s really going to get us anywhere fast.”

    Of course my argument is based on my own point of view. However, it is also a view backed up with a considerable amount of evidence, not least the subject of this thread. You point this out to people, or the horrendus flag on the bonfire in the other thread, or any number of other things and they will dismiss it with “It’s a few bad apples”. But that behaviour is both expected and consistent with the past. There is an clearly institutional problem. Only when “decent people”, whatever that means and the OO as an organisation take active and serious action will things change.

    I have also suggested on another thread, ways I think the OO could get past its problems. But they also cut no ice, because no one is prepared to listen.

    Honestly, if there is a way to get my message across, I’d love to hear it.

    “‘Cognitive dissonance’ indeed – I would hope that if nothing else debating this issue has given you an insight into what might be described as the liberal loyalist mindset, and has helped you realise that we’re not all ‘ATAT’ psychopaths engaging in, er, ‘stomp-fests’.”

    All psychopaths? No. I never claimed otherwise. But you are all clearly prepared ot jump through mental hoops to convince yourselves that these things don’t matter, or aren’t a major problem or indeed the opinion of the Nationalist population doesn’t matter. Classic conitive dissonance.

  • kai member

    kai is a name not abbrev for “kill all irish” as there is no full stops after each letter so look up what kai means in other countries and you will be surprised