Defining “Victory”

Nationalists have reacted angrily to the Parades Commission decision on the Whiterock. Sean “Spike” Murray of the Springfield Residents Group said the decision was “immoral” outlined what the residents viewed as victories and compromises:

“There is the West Circular route which we would see as a victory for the nationalists over the unionists; Workman gates which we would see as a victory for unionists over the nationalists. Now our position is and has been for the past six years that the parade should be put through the Mackies (site). We would see it as a win/win situation for both communities.”This position contains some revisionism as the parade route has changed before, moving further up the Springfield Road, so do these past nationalist “victories” not make Workman Avenue a “compromise”? The Parade Commission determination has merged two of the options with the vast bulk of the parade (93%) following the nationalist perceived “compromise”, is 93% not enough?

In broader terms on the use of rhetoric is defining particular outcomes as victory and implicitly a defeat for someone else wise? The selling of the last Agreement fell apart as each side claimed victory and as another deal edges closer is there a need to examine what language can be used to sell it without a process of upmanship?

The DUP meanwhile have embraced the terminology of sharing. The Orange Order has not yet given any formal response.

  • Harry

    You people call yourselves grown men? You’re nutters. I have lived in several countries where this sort of thing would under no circumstances be tolerated.

  • slug

    The person who is above such pettiness is the true victor.

  • Brenda

    The question is will it be peaceful, or will there be any bother?

    IMO it will be peaceful, despite the anger, the green shirts will be out in force, they can’t go letting anger from residents upset their plans for stormont.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    As much as I dislike this, it *IS* a rational approach, albeit along the lines of Solomon offering to split the baby. The local OO folks can march the local street and those who aren’t stakeholders in the community get to go the long way around. If nobody is particularly happy, then it might just be a just solution.

    That said, anyone care to wager on how badly this “split decision” works in reality land? Maybe a pool on how many days of rioting to follow and who receives the lion’s share of the blame? Tie-breaker being the number of sectarian bands prevented from marching due to their violation of the terms of the parade?

  • Brenda

    DC when was the last time you were on springfield road. As spike murray said on radio this morning, it is now 95% catholic nationalist. And they do not want this march. Would the londoners allow a white supremacist march from BNP thru a black borough of london?

    No.

    Walk somewhere else, stick to your own turf.

    The last march in or near ardoyne went thru because it was marshalled heavily, and agreement reached between residents groups and OOs, but the people who lived there DID NOT WANT IT.

    What is the issue here. The issue is stick to your own turf. Keep your feet on yer own street.

  • Proud

    And when we are forced out of our own streets? It is naive to assume that the OO alters its routes every once on a while to ensure the disruption of majority Catholic areas.

    In many cases the demographic shift has altered the makeup of the parade area to an extent where protestants are now marginalised where once they were in the majority. Don’t underestimate the fear this causes among the protestant community and therefore the subsequent feeling that there is a need to reassert themselves accordingly.

  • It’s all very simple, as Councillor Balls explains. “Victory is when we force themmuns to accept what themmuns think we would never accept in the name of a weak and deceitful so-called compromise, except that what themmuns think we would never accept is actually what we want them to believe we would never accept although we would secretly be delighted, so they would accept it rather than be seen to be accepting what we want them to think we would want to be seen to accept but would secretly loathe. Real statesmanship, unlike the tangled web of deceit that Mr. Blair and Mr. Ahern spin, consists in never permitting themmuns to force you to be seen to disclose your actual interests.”

  • Brenda

    well you know proud a lot of people have had to accept a lot of changes, and change is difficult and hard, but all of our peoples had to do it.

    Up date your traditions to take in the demographic shift and stick to your own turf, that way we can have summers in peace. This decision is a reward for bad behaviour, £3million pounds of bad behaviour. Hugh Orde last year condemned the OOs by saying he saw them as we all did attacking their own police. This is a disgraceful decision. Even Diane Dodds isn’t satisfied with it.

    This part of the springfield road is a nationalist area, so don’t walk where yer not wanted, and same applies for the tour of the north.

    This decision is not good, since the commission now is stuffed its self full of orange men. Garvaghy road is a sure bet, there’ll be orange feet on that street this summer. Be very surprised if there is not.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Brenda: “DC when was the last time you were on springfield road. As spike murray said on radio this morning, it is now 95% catholic nationalist. And they do not want this march. Would the londoners allow a white supremacist march from BNP thru a black borough of london? ”

    I did say I disliked it, didn’t I, Brenda? However, the price one pays for living in a Western democracy is that one occasionally must tolerate speech that one disagrees with. I am suprised that march has been allowed, given that which has gone on before. But is *HAS* been allowed. I would support any and all appropriate challenges. All I have said is that the decision was akin to Solomon’s offer to split the baby between the two mothers. No, there is the small problem that neither of the two “mothers” in this scenario really have the best interests at heart

    As for a BNP march through a black borough in London, its not material to this discussion. We are not talking about London. That the British can be hypocritical should come as no shock. Likewise, I would like to think that the Irish can handle such matters as “Freedom of Speech.”

    Ultimately, these conversations should not be over “victory,” as that makes the parade (or lack thereof) a triumph, which will only continue the problems. A reasonable accomodation, accompanied by a civil response or perhaps even non-violent civil disobedience, would be more productive.

    *MY* main objection is that this scenario has the appearance of a small reward for the OO for last year’s violence, thus my cynical post. I worry that the entirely wrong lesson is being taught and that matters will get worse instead of better.

  • nmc

    The question is will it be peaceful, or will there be any bother?

    I reckon there will be plenty of disturbances over this one, it’s worth bearing in mind that

    a) SF are probably now less popular in that particular part of town than ever before and

    b) Not everyone in that part of town shares allegiance with SF or the RA, in fact a large number of people are in rival organisations, and an even larger number again are in none, and

    c) Don’t take this the wrong way, but there are some nutters up in the West. I’m a Ballymena catholic, now living up there, and I reckon there are a lot of people who do not give a f%$# about SF or their aspirations, and wouldn’t think twice about starting murder.

    (IMHO)

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Proud: “In many cases the demographic shift has altered the makeup of the parade area to an extent where protestants are now marginalised where once they were in the majority. Don’t underestimate the fear this causes among the protestant community and therefore the subsequent feeling that there is a need to reassert themselves accordingly. ”

    Any animal, be it reptile, mammal, social or political, that is incapable of adapting to its changing environment will eventually die. Do you really want this to come down to Darwin days?

  • Brenda

    mmc the green shirts will be out in force, of that I am confident. But they took a roasting in particular gerry kelly, when they marshalled thru the orange parade at the ardoyne shops.

    If there is trouble it is the fault of the OO. make no bones about it. If you force yourselves on your neighbours and they do not want triumphalist orange marches outside their homes, would you expect a cup of tea and a card to say call again next year.

    The OOs should be made to pay for all disturbances that comes from these sectarian marches.

    Don’t go where you’re not wanted, even if the green shirts say you can. It doesn’t make for good relations.

    keep yer feet on yer own street.

  • martin

    Alex clearly hit the nail on the head there. the problem and may I suggest the solution lyies with themmuns, if only we could convince themmuns of the benefits of emigrarting to outer mongolia,and take blair bush adams and all the wee orange bigots with them,

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    ‘a) SF are probably now less popular in that particular part of town than ever before’

    That is not borne out by the recent Local Government elections, that part of West Belfast comes under the Lower Falls ward. That was the only ward in that election that returned a full house of candidates for one party, 5 SF councillors.

    ‘Not everyone in that part of town shares allegiance with SF or the RA, in fact a large number of people are in rival organisations, and an even larger number again are in none,’

    A large number? don’t make me laugh. What there are belonging to these organisations you wouldn’t send to the shop for a loaf.

    ‘Don’t take this the wrong way, but there are some nutters up in the West. I’m a Ballymena catholic, now living up there, and I reckon there are a lot of people who do not give a f%$# about SF or their aspirations, and wouldn’t think twice about starting murder.’

    I have no doubt that there is an element wanting to ‘start murder’, they shift their anti social behaviour from their neigbours front doors to the nearerst point of conflict, once it starts. Don’t try and dress that behaviour up as anything other than a wish to start trouble, it has nothing to do with parades and the O.O. 95% of young people in areas like Ardoyne heed the advice given to them and stay well clear of these situations.

    Unfortunately when you mentioned being from Ballymena you kind of gave the game away.

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    ‘mmc the green shirts will be out in force, of that I am confident. But they took a roasting in particular gerry kelly, when they marshalled thru the orange parade at the ardoyne shops.’

    As someone who was there in the capacity of a steward that is a lie. For your benefit I will repeat what i said to the Ballymena cowboy,

    ‘I have no doubt that there is an element wanting to ‘start murder’, they shift their anti social behaviour from their neigbours front doors to the nearerst point of conflict, once it starts. Don’t try and dress that behaviour up as anything other than a wish to start trouble, it has nothing to do with parades and the O.O. 95% of young people in areas like Ardoyne heed the advice given to them and stay well clear of these situations.’

  • nmc

    Pat,

    The last elections do paint a different picture, and in my saying that they are less popular in that particular part of town than ever before, I’m reflecting the opinion of many people who I have spoken to who are fed up with anti-social behaviour and the lack of policing of any kind, and who believe that SF are sellouts. This is however not substantiated by a source, it’s only what I’ve heard from ordinary people.

    A large number? don’t make me laugh. What there are belonging to these organisations you wouldn’t send to the shop for a loaf.

    As I am assuming is that. Between the IRPS the Continuities and any other organisations I would imagine they can get you as many loaves as you could wish for. I am not in possession of membership numbers, and I’m assuming neither do you?

    Unfortunately when you mentioned being from Ballymena you kind of gave the game away.

    Can you explain that comment?

  • Brenda

    A lie pat? Well then radio ulster must be very good at dessemminating lies, because they reported it. they interviewed a local business woman who did not want to be identified and also went into the local bookies and interviewed people there on the day the statement about the agreement was issued.

    Just because you are a green shirt and fully paid up member of the provo police does not give you the rights to all local feelings.

    Maybe the good people of ardoyne were afraid to voice their true opinions to the green shirts, but told them to radio ulster news.

    I invite you to contact them and take up the matter with them, if you are so sure.

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    nmc,

    as stated the support for SF is easily quantifiable, unfortunately the people who you talk to are not.

    You stated earlier that their were large number in other organisations, later you stated you are not in possession of the numbers in these rival organisations , which is it?
    I wouldn’t send them to the shop for a loaf simply because they would probably be arrested.

    Brenda,

    Radio Ulster stated that ‘Gerry Kelly in particular took a roasting’ can you provide a link to that. Well if an unidentified businesswoman and the punters of a bookies are your sole areas of proof then enough said.

    The people of the area were widley consulted on the march. The people who actually live on the Crumlin Rd, Mountainview and the Dales supported the agreement. As were the people of Cranbrook, Farringdon and Velsheda, the streets that run behind Ardoyne Rd. Father Troy went into the schools to deliver the message to the young people and the staff and members of the various youth clubs and GAA were also consulted.
    Teachers from the local schools and youth workers and staff from the GAA were also present at Ardoyne shops on Friday night.

    But all this consultation and willingness to try and have a peaceful outcome really does pale into insignifance when faced with the worldly wisdom and rationale of a punter whose last £5 went on the second favourite at Leopardstown.

    Your comments about provo police etc really are quite pathetic.

  • Ardoyne Resident

    Maybe the good people of ardoyne were afraid to voice their true opinions to the green shirts..

    Brenda, this is just the case! The hot-heads wouldn’t look favourably on those who see things differently.

    Pat, you are right. Many of us, (IMO the majpority) are just busy getting on with life and couldn’t give a rats ass about the political success of the Green Shirts! You can bury your head and think it ain’t so but, that’s just the way it is!

  • Brenda

    Pat you are dilebrately putting together two of my posts in order to cause confusion. that is the sign of a man who has no argument.

    there was plenty of comment about gerry kelly marshalling the orange men thru ardoyne. Everyone remembers it, we all saw it, there is no doubt it was contentious not only in one area but a lot of areas.

    You are deliberately trying to give the impression that there was universal agreement on the agreement, when clearly there was not. As I said, this was radio ulster news interviewing, and the local business woman and the people in the bookies are members of the area, just as the teachers in the schools WORK there. It was quite clear from the interview broadcast that there was NO UNIVERSAL agreement.

    On the issue of springfield road, which is what this thread is about, there does seem to be universal agreement that the march is NOT wanted. This has also been reported on radio ulster news.

    Why is one broadcast true and the other not. Because you say so? Why are the punters in the bookies who pay their £5 bets members of the community when they are murdered on the Ormeau road or bottom of the whiterock road, but not when they are being interviewed to say they do not want an orange march.

    Is the desire for stormont that strong?

  • Poddy Pie

    Pat Mc Larnon

    It is your arrogant, sycophantic support for the PROVOS which is truly pathetic

    It is obsessive opinion like this that is turning people away from SF. Catch a grip!

  • fair_deal

    Much as the spat about who has the greater insight is enterntaining I would appreciate it if you could focus more on topic. I’d especially be interested in your comments about

    “In broader terms on the use of rhetoric is defining particular outcomes as victory and implicitly a defeat for someone else wise? The selling of the last Agreement fell apart as each side claimed victory and as another deal edges closer is there a need to examine what language can be used to sell it without a process of upmanship?”

  • Rory

    The Metropolitan Police, Brenda, would no longer countenance a white supremacist march through London today largely because I, along with many others, stood up in violent confrontation with the National Front and the Met when they tried to force their march, that was sanctioned, through Brixton in the 70’s.

    A close friend and comrade of mine, confronting the Nazis, had his picture large on the front cover of The Sun with a huge underlying strap “THE FACE OF HATE!!”. With good old London directness and wit, when his friends and family expressed horror at this depiction, he responded, “I don’t mind. It’s true. I do hate those effin’ Nazi bastards and I’ll keep hating ’em and keep kicking ’em while there’s breath in me body”.

  • Congal Claen

    Hi Brenda,

    “Don’t go where you’re not wanted”

    Is that not a bit of a dangerous precedent to set? One only has to think back to Ahoghill last summer to realise that some of the headcases from the opposite side of the fence to you might be listening…

  • Brenda

    don’t go where you’re not wanted IMO applies to all sides.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Fair_Deal: (quoting) “In broader terms on the use of rhetoric is defining particular outcomes as victory and implicitly a defeat for someone else wise? The selling of the last Agreement fell apart as each side claimed victory and as another deal edges closer is there a need to examine what language can be used to sell it without a process of upmanship?” ”

    Ah, but this year, in Whiterock, upmanship should not have been a question, FD. Last year’s debacle *SHOULD* have put paid to this year’s parade — why should they be allowed to march when, last year, they demonstrated they could not be counted upon to control their marchers?

    On a broader note, the electorate is polarized, so we’re going to be burdened by the score-keepers for the foreseeable future. Unfortunately, with the UUP climbing into bed with the thugocrats, the number of potentially less polarized players is diminishing. The credibility of the UUP will be further diminished if the UVF/LVF feud heats up, as has been predicted in some quarters.

    Its a crooked game at the moment, but its the only game in town.

  • Congal Claen

    Hi Brenda,

    “don’t go where you’re not wanted IMO applies to all sides”

    And that’s exactly why it’s so dangerous!

    For example, should Catholics not have been allowed to build Churches, schools or houses in what were perceived Prod areas?

  • Congal Claen

    Hi Dread,

    “Ah, but this year, in Whiterock, upmanship should not have been a question, FD. Last year’s debacle *SHOULD* have put paid to this year’s parade—why should they be allowed to march when, last year, they demonstrated they could not be counted upon to control their marchers”

    I agree with you. However, the restrictions on the march last year were seen as a reward for the violent protest at the return of the 12th parade past the Ardoyne shops. So, it should never have been restricted in the first place. Essentially, the message was given out that violence pays. We’ll be reaping the reward of that for years to come…

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    ‘Pat you are dilebrately putting together two of my posts in order to cause confusion. that is the sign of a man who has no argument.’

    Which two ,you are lying again. You stated Gerry Kelly got a ‘roasting’. I was there on Friday night, you were not at the O.O. parade, nothing like that happened. If you are talking about 2 years ago on the Ardoyne Rd then clearly state which parade you are talking about. I don’t think you know yourself.

    I am not stating, nor have I ever, that there was universal agreement on this parade, to claim that I did is yet another lie. I spoke of widespread consultation during which those in attendance agreed that the course taken on Friday night was the right one.

    Your trailing up of the dead at Whiterock and Ormeau to strengthen your argument is quite sad.

    Poddy Pie,

    does your mother know you have the computer on, also stay away from the fire.

    FD,

    the process of oneupmanship was taken to extremes by the political and paramiltary wings of unioinism when they brought violence, guns and bombs onto the streets of Belfast last year. What where they after if not victory, they were prepared to kill for it.

  • Brenda

    Congal, when poleglass estate on the edge of west belfast was first opened up, the council in lisburn refused to empty bins etc, its a wonder they were given permission at all to build catholic homes, or schools. these are necessary things, marching past peoples front doors with flags from organisations that murder members of their community is not necessary in any society in this day and age.

    what is dangerous is the out dated notion that these parades should be allowed to march past ppls front doors who do not want them. It is this that constitutes a danger as was seen last year. At great cost to the tax payer.

    Its time for a new perspective. These triumphalist marches cannot go where they like without objection, and changes to their routes being made in the interests of peace. OOs should set an example, violence should not pay.

  • Chris Donnelly

    The DUP meanwhile have embraced the terminology of sharing.

    FD

    Care to provide examples of this? Such terminology was missing in the run up to last year’s Springfield parade, when Ian Paisley all but promised the violence which followed that parade.

    The facts of the Springfield Road parade are simple: the West Belfast peace-wall, separating the loyalist and nationalist districts in that part of the city, have to be opened to facilitate a loyalist parade through the nationalist side of the fence.

    Now, I ask, can anyone imagine the response from unionism/ loyalist paramilitarism were the situation to be reversed? Firstly, no Parades Commission- never mind one packed with Orange Order appointees- would support it; Secondly, violence would be unleashed on the marchers, supporters, local residents and anyone else whom the loyalists could associate with such a provocative procession- and, furthermore, the general consensus in the media/ political circles would be that they brought it on themselves.

    So what exactly is it in the Orange Order/ Loyalist/ Unionist psyche that insists on arranging and persisting with such provocative and triumphalist gestures?

    Perhaps it’s to do with a desire to return to the days when the collective morale of the nationalist community could be consistently undermined by assertions of unionist supremacism within the state?

  • Brenda

    ‘I am not stating nor have I ever that there was universal agreement on this parade’

    You certainly tried to give the impression there was. You tried to take me to task for saying there wasn’t universal agreement on it. Which is it I don’t think you know yourself.

    As for trailing up the dead, can you answer the question put, why do you disdainfully describe the ppl in the bookies when they say they do not want an orange parade? Surely ppl wo frequent bookies are entitled to an opinion, so why put them down because they are in a bookies, or why put down another poster for being from ballymena. What was it you called him a ballymena cowboy.

    As for the Kelly comment, if you weren’t sure which parade I was speaking off all you had to do was ask me to clarify. No you’d rather call ppl liars.

    So now you have moved your position and agree, the radio ulster broadcast was not a lie, and there was no universal agreement on this parade.

    Make up your mind Pat, you’re all over the place. LOL

  • fair_deal

    CD

    “Care to provide examples of this?”

    That sentence was referring to a mention of a DUP statement provided near the bottom of the story linked above.

    “In a statement, the DUP said the ruling recognised that this section of the Springfield Road should be shared space,”

    “The facts of the Springfield Road parade are simple: the West Belfast peace-wall, separating the loyalist and nationalist districts in that part of the city, have to be opened to facilitate a loyalist parade through the nationalist side of the fence.”

    It is a fact that at Workman Avenue there is a pedestrian gate that is open everyday. Also at the junction of Workman Avenue/Springfield Road there is a gate not a wall.

    “So what exactly is it in the Orange Order/ Loyalist/ Unionist psyche that insists on arranging and persisting with such provocative and triumphalist gestures? ”

    Maybe moving away from the stereotype e.g. “provocative and triumphalist gestures” might help you in your search to understand the psyche.

    BTW I had hoped to use the local to encourage a broader discussion about language and its use but so far comments have remained on the particular. So I would be interested in hearing your view of language that could be used around future deals.

  • Congal Claen

    Hi Brenda,

    “build catholic homes, or schools. these are necessary things”

    Yes. But, and an important but, they are not necessary in Prod areas. Therefore, should Catholic schools, churches, etc be exclusively built in Catholic areas? Or as you put it…

    should “don’t go where you’re not wanted” apply to the building of Catholic schools, churches, etc?

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Heya, Congal!

    “I agree with you. However, the restrictions on the march last year were seen as a reward for the violent protest at the return of the 12th parade past the Ardoyne shops. So, it should never have been restricted in the first place. Essentially, the message was given out that violence pays. We’ll be reaping the reward of that for years to come… ”

    I hate to use this analogy, since it will offend someone, but I fear we’re going to work this like Pavlovian conditioning. The more we “reward” a certain behavior, the more we’re going to see that behavior.

    That said, the amount of rioting last year was excessive — sufficiently such that it should have driven a stake through the heart of this year’s parade. But then, that would assume the political and police bureaucrats were worth something.

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    ‘You certainly tried to give the impression there was. You tried to take me to task for saying there wasn’t universal agreement on it. Which is it I don’t think you know yourself.’

    I simply related the series of widespread consultations that took place in the area, compared to your boys in the bookies argument. Radio Ulster looking for an angle to criticise against the very widerspread consultation that actually happened

    You quite cynically brought up the massacre of people killed at Ormeau and Whiterock, these people are no more than a prop for you in order to win an argument, obviously you hold them in high esteem.

    The boy from Ballymena came on trying to bluff about knowing the mood on the ground at Springfield, my factual representation of who people actually vote for in that area and the scale of that vote knocked that particular angle on the head. I have a habit of calling bluffers cowboys.

    It was you who linked the roasting of ‘Gerry Kelly’ and then tried to bluff that the interviews at the bookies etc were an indication of widespread dissension on the ground. I quite clearly told you that no such confrontations took place, I was there you were not. It was then you tried to come off with ‘we all remember it’, indicating to me that you were a little bit confused.

    Stick to hurling insults like ‘provo police’ when you get into the detail you are just plain dumb.

  • Brenda

    Fair Deal the language is clear and precise and unambigious.

    ‘No orange feet on our street.’
    ‘If you want to walk then do the talk’.

    Congal, the issues you speak off, is a side road off topic, i’d prefer to stick to the topic of contentious orange parades. My opinion is these marches are contentious and not necessary, the other issues you raise belong in a different category.

  • Congal Claen

    Hi Brenda,

    “Congal, the issues you speak off, is a side road off topic, i’d prefer to stick to the topic of contentious orange parades. My opinion is these marches are contentious and not necessary, the other issues you raise belong in a different category.”

    But I, and a wager a lot of other unionists/loyalists would disagree. It’s completely related. If Catholics homes had not been built in areas that were originally considered Prod areas there wouldn’t be any contentious marches as the areas would still be Prod.

    I don’t agree with that as I think you should be allowed to live were you like.

    However, I would like to know if you apply the same logic to both? If not, I’d like to know why…

  • fair_deal

    Brenda

    I am sure that is an answer to a question but not the question I asked.

    Also on your second quote talks were held last year and this but with no change in the residents position. So I am afraid the second one as well as clear, precise and unambiguous it is bollox.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Nice filibuster, Fair_Deal…

    Now, if you could answer the man’s question:

    “Now, I ask, can anyone imagine the response from unionism/ loyalist paramilitarism were the situation to be reversed?”

    This is pertinent, insofar as its not really “shared space” unless it works both ways.

    Fair_Deal: “Maybe moving away from the stereotype e.g. “provocative and triumphalist gestures” might help you in your search to understand the psyche. ”

    The OO is still an anti-Catholic organization, is it not? Are they not still demanding that they and its friends, the Loyalist / sectarian-affiliated bands, march through an overwhelmingly Catholic neighborhood? Given these two facts, how is this *NOT* a “provocative and triumphalist gesture” on the part of the OO and their Loyalist fellow-travellers?

    Fair_Deal: “BTW I had hoped to use the local to encourage a broader discussion about language and its use but so far comments have remained on the particular. So I would be interested in hearing your view of language that could be used around future deals.”

    Calling a dog’s tail a leg doesn’t change the fact that it isn’t a leg. Not acknowledging last years riots and calling them “poor marshalling” does not make them any less destructive or any less violent, any more than a pile of filth slopping into the street, guarded by drunken thugs is simply “a poorly managed bonfire site.” Your gift for euphemism and verbal slight of hand adds nothing beneficial to the conversation, Fair_Deal — if anything, it detracts from the point you are trying to make.

  • Brenda

    How do you know I wasn’t there, FYI my fathers family are all from ardoyne, it could be the case I have more relatives there than you. that is a silly argument.

    Your post at 3.43 no 18 clearly shows how much you hold ppl in bookies in high regard I merely inquired did your disdainful regard of them also include those that were murdered? Its a simple enough question. Or do you only disdainfully regard ppl in bookies when they disagree with an orange march?

    You clearly tried to give the impression that the radio ulster broadcast was of no consequence, and that the report that the ppl in the bookies and an unidentified business woman who gave different views to you where out of whack. Then in your post no 4 at 4.20 you said different. ‘I have never stated there was universal agreement on this parade’. Then why question the radio interviews? If you’d done that much consultation you should have known there wasn’t universal agreement, you clearly tried to give the impression there was.

  • Brenda

    Congal it is a mute point, if the houses are there.

  • Congal Claen

    Hi Brenda,

    “Congal it is a mute point, if the houses are there”

    I refer you to your earlier line “don’t go where you’re not wanted”.

    Is this really what you want?

  • Brenda

    It is my suggestion that OO marches go only where they are wanted. It is also my suggestion that marches from republicans go only where they are wanted.

    that is my suggestion.

  • fair_deal

    DC

    “The OO is still an anti-Catholic organization,”

    No, it is a Protestant organisation.

    “Now, I ask, can anyone imagine the response from unionism/ loyalist paramilitarism were the situation to be reversed?”

    There have been a variety of responses over the past few years in terms of the Whiterock parade. Public rejection but compliance with the rulings. One year it was similar to this years parade except all Orangemen were allowed through the gate and the bands went through Mackies. Last year it degenerated into violence.

    Also elsewhere different responses have occured to PC decisions so to imply that there is only a singular and always violent response to PC decisions is false.

    “Not acknowledging last years riots and calling them “poor marshalling””

    I just did a search for the phrases “poor marshalling” and “fair_deal” and no thread of with me saying that comes up. Instead what comes up is two posts by you claiming I said it (your 8.20pm to the Bonfires thread and now this thread). I also don’t recall denying riots occured last year either. I would appreciate it if you could substantiate these.

  • Rory

    That is a terrific suggestion, Brenda.

    Shall we demand that it be applied to foreign military marching into lands other than their own?

    I am sure that Mr Tony Blair would find it a most compelling argument and ardently convince his American friend of its merits – except that the doctrine of moral eqivalency is only intended to flow in one direction.

    Now, we can’t go against the (new) laws of nature, can we, Brenda?

  • Brenda

    rory, I am specifically talking about orange marches.

    it is my suggestion that orange marches go only where they are wanted, and the same for the republican side. Not tony blair, or where to build houses, the orange marches, which i think are totally unnecessary, and can be violent at great cost to the tax payer.

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    ‘FYI my fathers family are all from ardoyne, it could be the case I have more relatives there than you. that is a silly argument.’

    I simply don’t believe you, I have identified you lying a few times, you could be again. i dare say if we discussing Garvaghy your grannies second cousin passed through there on the bus.

    Your cynical use of dead people showed the depraved nature of your argumment and the fact that you really haven’t got a clue of what is going on in the area.
    You used this so called interview as evidence that Gerry Kelly ‘was roasted’ and tried to indicate it was indicative of some sort of groundswell against those who help prevent trouble at these parades, trouble for you that it never happened and you were forced to make up a case that you think happened nearly two years ago. Last Friday; two years ago, one can see how you could mix both up.
    You were even forced to use the old chestnut of O.O. parades marshalled through nationalist area. Again it never happened, again stop lying.

    If you hate SF just say so. If you want to see no stewards trying to prevent trouble at these marches, also just so . Although any deaths occurring at these marches would be another useful prop in one of your circular arguments.

  • Prince Eoghan

    Can anyone point me toward maps of the sectarian divisions in Belfast and the 6 counties in general. I have seen the old CAIN ones and they are not great in detail.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Fair_Deal: ““The OO is still an anti-Catholic organization,”

    No, it is a Protestant organisation. ”

    Are you telling me they have excised the anti-Catholic language from their by-laws? Or is this just another one of your euphemisms?

    Fair_Deal: ” just did a search for the phrases “poor marshalling” and “fair_deal” and no thread of with me saying that comes up. Instead what comes up is two posts by you claiming I said it (your 8.20pm to the Bonfires thread and now this thread). I also don’t recall denying riots occured last year either. I would appreciate it if you could substantiate these. ”

    A thousand pardons, Fair_Deal…

    The euphemism you used was “parade management,” not “poor marshalling. You have, however, cited poor marshalling as the culprit in parades taht suffered less-than-desirable outcomes. Likewise, you have sought to divorce the riots from the parades that have instigated them — a curious, if not understandable, given your beliefs. Poorly phrased on my part, I confess.

    “You are straying into parade management issues which is different from the right to parade in itself. Parade management does need to be improved and various initiatives are underway to do so. ” (the 48th post on the “Sinn_Fein_Reject_Tolerance” thread)

  • Pat

    Equality is what people need and in the case of these parades Nationalists need to organise parades through the Unionist part of these same roads.

    On the Springfield Road for Nationalists to walk from Ballymurphy to the Falls would mean having to pass the front of around 100-150m of Unionist/Protestant house fronts. From the UTV interview this would clearly have the support of the DUP (Nelson McCausland) and there defined “Shared Space” concept. The 9th of August would be a good date to start – anyone in Ballymurphy want to pick up the challenge?

    The same would apply for the Nationalist people of Ligoneill who should also have the right to parade past the Unionits living along the main Crumlin Road “Shared Space”, an equal distance that is passed by the Unionists on their way from Protestant Ligoneill to the Shankill via Ardoyne and the Catholic Crumlin Road. Again the 9th August seems to be a good date and in time for the papers to be delivered to the PSNI.

    Clearly equality is when everyone is allowed the same privileges and freedoms, and therefore Nationalists must also have the right to parade these “Shared Roads” and likewise the Unionists the right to protest, or is the Equality legislation not worth the paper on which it is printed?

  • fair_deal

    DC

    Thanks for that clarification. No need for apologies. The memory is not a perfect instrument and it happens to all regular commentators on hereat some stage.

  • Brenda

    Pat sticks and stones. Thats not an argument. you failed to answer the questions. You changed your position. First you said there was agreement on the parade then you said there WASNT universal agreement on the parade.

    Now where do you want to meet me and I will take you to my relatives.

  • Brenda

    pat can you point out where you have identified me lying please. thanks.

  • Brenda

    Pat if you don’t want to meet pass your number on to mick who will pass it on to me and I will tell you who my relatives are.

    can’t be fairer than that.

    still waiting on where you said I lied pat? O yes anyone who disagrees with you lies, isn;t that it?

  • temperance

    Will the members of Whiterock Temperance LOL 974 act in the same sectarian and abusive manner as they did during last years parade ?

    The loyal members can be seen acting in a very dignified and non-threatening way in the link below.

    http://www.troopsoutmovement.com/marches.htm

    A credit to the organisation !!

  • Brenda

    Aw well pat the challenge is there if you want it.
    at least its clear who is lying, and who isn’t.

    You haven’t identified where I lied because I didn’t.

    You changed your position first saying there was universal agreement on the parade and then saying there wasn’t.

    You threw down a challenge to see if I have relatives in ardoyne, which I have, the offer is there, but not taken up.

    I offered to meet.

    It is clear you discredit or try to discredit opponents of SF by trying to blacken them rather than argument.

    If you want to take up the offer send your number to mick who hopefully will be good enough to send it on to me, and we can take it from there.

  • Mick Fealty

    Guys,

    This thread has turned into another flaming session. Not helped by Harry’s calling ‘you people’ nutters – ball Harry???

    This ad hominem stuff just leads to dull personal bun fights, which I have no time for. And, for the record, I have absolutely no intention of refereeing one, on or offline!!

    For the ‘n’th time in the last few days: engage civilly or not at all!!

  • Harry

    Sorry Mick. I thought the simple phrase contained the distilled substance of a viewpoint, the better understood for its simplicity. By so doing I hoped to allow unionists, for a brief moment, comprehend how they are seen by others, quickly live it for a moment. Through defamiliarisation, as the structuralists would say.

    Then again, maybe I was just being rude.

  • Kathy_C

    posted by Kathy C

    Hi all, Sinn Fein has a big problem. Back in 97 they objected to the orange order marches as hate marches akin to the kkk/nazi’s. Recently Gerry Adams states and it is the new policy of SF that orange marches are expressions of cultures…but SF just objects to a few….SF has caused some of the problems by their waffling on the issue and giving out conflicting signals to the orange order and unionist. It’s just too bad that the local people have to suffer and be humilitated by the orange order marchers.

  • Brenda

    where ya been kathy?

  • Kathy_C

    posted by Kathy C

    Hi all,

    Brenda, I’ve been here…just reading not commenting…but thanks for noticing….

  • Cahal

    This crap really highlights what a totally dysfunctional and failed sectarian entity ‘northern Ireland’ is.

    If people actually left that hole for a few weeks surely they would realize just how abnormal it is to be marching around towns with banners honoring murdering scum. This DOES NOT happen in a normal society.

    Is it any wonder the world has zero sympathy for the unionist position. If it walks like a bigot, and talks like a bigot…..

    Ban the Klan.

  • Slugger O’Toole Admin

    Yep, word banning is back…

  • Cahal

    What, you’ve banned the word *duck*?

  • elfinto

    It’s time for nationalists to withdraw co-operation from the Parades Commission. That approach seems to work for the Orange Order.

  • Belfast Gonzo

    I have a funny feeling that Slugger may have some exiles from another place moving in… some of the trolling in this thread has an air of familiarity about it!

    The best bit was the republicans arguing that violence cannot be allowed to pay. A unionist might well ask: “Where have you been for the last 10 years?!”

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Gonzo: “The best bit was the republicans arguing that violence cannot be allowed to pay. A unionist might well ask: “Where have you been for the last 10 years?!””

    Should the cycle continue, Gonzo? Is that the lesson one wants to teach the next two generations?

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Fair_Deal: “Thanks for that clarification. No need for apologies.”

    De nada… I was right church, wrong pew, but you had a decent point as well. Call it a push.

    Fair_Deal: “The memory is not a perfect instrument and it happens to all regular commentators on here at some stage. ”

    *sigh*

    Memory is the first thing to go… :/

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    Mick point taken.

    There is a broader question for nationalists and republicans around parades. It is the Parades Commission that ultimately decides on these sectarian marches. It is clear from recent court proceedings that the present make up of the current commission was manipulated to ensure a weighted unionist majority and thus a likelihood that contentious sectarian marches would get the go ahead.
    Therefore, what do nationalist do when these parades are given the go ahead? It is clear that hundreds of PSNI storm troopers and British Army personnel will be used to enforce the decisions. Their decision to use water cannons 45 seconds after the first minor incident at Ardoyne shops last July is an indicator of their willingness to enforce those decisions on nationalists with gusto.
    Given that areas like Ardoyne are invaded by these troops there is a likelihood of confrontation between young locals and those who invade. Should locals just let things develop? Should locals let the inevitable confrontations take place?
    I have no doubt there are those who would sit knitting by the bottom of the guillotine as the dead passed by, silently pleased at the goings on as it enforces there own agenda. Unfortunately for them not everyone sees that as an option.

    Gonzo,

    violence from unionism has been ongoing for more than the past ten years. They have beeen practising it and getting benefits from it. So of course they know it pays.

  • barnshee

    Brenda
    “don’t go where you’re not wanted IMO applies to all sides.

    Could not agree more republicans are not wanted in N Ireland – clear off ???

  • McGrath

    Dread Cthulhu, “The OO is still an anti-Catholic organization”

    Fair _Deal, “No, it is a Protestant organisation.”

    Fair_Deal, can you confirm all protestants would agree with that?

    In some near future NI parliament, what is the likelihood of a referendum coming about that sought to ban OO parading?

    How would such a referendum be supported?

    My prediction is virtually 95% of nationalists would support it, and in all likelihood a significant proportion of protestants would support it. Quite probably the combination of both communities vote (remembering the proportion of the nationalist vote is increasing) could be significantly greater than 50%?

    How likely is such a referendum, or something similar to it? Its hard to answer of course, but there was a time in the recent past when an IRA ceasefire was highly unlikely, never mind disarmament. Who would have predicted the parades commission, never mind the DUP and Sein Fein becoming the largest parties?

    Fair_Deal, you asked about “wording” to be used in dialog between communities regarding OO parading (or something like that). Regardless if the OO is “an anti-catholic organization”, or it is a “protestant” organization”, the clear fact remains, virtually all catholics regard the OO as an anti catholic organization. Every catholic I ask considers it to be. (Im sure there is some opinion poll to be quoted here).

    The heart of the problem isn’t wording, the heart of the problem is perception. Bring about practices that convince the the catholic population that the OO isn’t anti-catholic, and Id say you can march just about were ever you like, in peace.

    Now Fair-Deal, instead of looking for loopholes to avoid answering or to provide construed answers to what I have asked, consider the spirit of what I am asking and give me your thoughts.

  • Proud

    McGrath – it’s not a case of every protestant supporting the OO, rather that the ethos of the OO is to uphold the protestant faith. Not dissimilar to the RC principle of one true church, albeit in the context of a social organisation. I agree that perception is important however; see my points on adaption below.

    Dread – sorry it took me so long to reply, re: your post on page 1 about Darwinism. If you look at other topics, e.g. bonfires/murals, you will see that I am a strong advocate of change and adaption in order to further the loyalist tradition – NI is dramatically changing and groups who previously would have stood either side of the peaceline are now coming face to face. The OO and loyalism in general needs to learn to work with this.

    Is it too much to ask, then, that the Catholic population of NI also learns to adapt to an extent, to deal with the new challenges presented by having to work closely with elements of the protestant community they (and I!) would deem unsavoury?

    Comments such as ‘no orange feet on our road’ and ‘go where you’re wanted’ aren’t very indicative of a willingness to address the issues at hand, and isn’t going to encourage reciprocal gestures from loyalists. Neither is the instant slating of the PC as soon as it appoints one or two orangemen…

  • all out

    The most gratifying thing about this debate from a unionist perspective is that Brenda is completely right. SF has sold out on a monumental level, every single holy cow has been sacrificed on the altar of the political careers of a small cabal of pragmatic opportunists.
    Principle of consent? Enshrined in international law and not the slightest indication the demographics will change it.
    Policing? PSNI largely a re-branded RUC, more Catholics joining to uphold British law and order. Excellent and long overdue.
    No return to Stormont? ‘I want to nominate Ian Paisley as First Minister’. Ahem.
    Not a bullet not an ounce? Complete and verfiable decommissioning. Cheers!

    The only reason why Gerry et al have been able to sell this utter crock is that every time an orange march is re-routed 4 yards away, loyalists react like its a direct threat to their existence. Their clarion hysteria makes it much easier for SF to convince their supporters that it must be good for them, cos look at the prods ‘squealing’.
    Whatever. Thinking unionists are happy to kick back, enjoy this farce playing out before their disbelieving eyes and bask in their consitutional, guaranteed security in an almost entirely non peaceful environment.
    I don’t understand how there hasn’t been a massive uprising against the SF leadership by ‘real ‘ republicans…or rather I do: incredibly clever, drawn out management and dissembling.
    I’m extremely glad their hasn’t been. Militant republicanism is neutered for good and we’re all better off for it.

  • all out

    Should read “an almost entirely *peaceful* environment.”

  • Brenda

    LOL. all out, nail and head comes to mind.

  • Kathy_C

    posted by Kathy C

    Hi all,

    I find it interesting how the protestants defending the OO state Catholics should be more understanding to different cultures and respect others…
    The orange order is a hate group…and should be resisted as such…not one ounce of respectability should be given that organization.
    The orange order marches in support of their queen and their fraternity. Their queen/monarch is enshrined by law not to marry a papist/Catholic. The orange order members are enshrined by their requirement not to marry a papist/Catholic. Both are anti Catholic and both get to rule the north as superior beings. No equality with the papist/Catholics .

  • kensei

    ““The OO is still an anti-Catholic organization,”

    No, it is a Protestant organisation. ”

    Wrong. And we’ve been through this at least 3 times already. While the OO continues, for example, to ban members from atending Catholic services including funerals under threat of explusion then it is an anti-Catholic organisation.

  • Proud

    As I have stated above, the OO is an organisation with an ethos of defending the protestant faith – no-one is denying that the restrictions mentioned by kensei exist, rather I am arguing that these are the result of the main aim of the Order – to maintain protestantism, and not simply some sort of anti-catholic practice for the sake of it.

    The challenge for the OO and loyalism is to work to alter these negative perceptions of the Order and show that it is in fact a spiritual organisation at a base level.

    Kathy – phrases like “hate group” don’t serve to aid understanding, and are also particularly offensive to people such as myself who wish to conduct a reasoned debate without seeing friends and relatives indirectly insulted in such a way.

    I don’t for one second expect you to undergo some sort of radical change of opinion, however a little tact when expressing dissent would be appreciated.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Proud: “If you look at other topics, e.g. bonfires/murals, you will see that I am a strong advocate of change and adaption in order to further the loyalist tradition – NI is dramatically changing and groups who previously would have stood either side of the peaceline are now coming face to face. The OO and loyalism in general needs to learn to work with this. ”

    And how, pray tell, is enabling their insecure knee-jerk reaction to express their dominance helping them “learn to work with this,” Proud? Frankly, allowing them to ‘meander to their own accordian’ in the face of reality strikes me as a disservice, not a helping hand.

    Proud: “Is it too much to ask, then, that the Catholic population of NI also learns to adapt to an extent, to deal with the new challenges presented by having to work closely with elements of the protestant community they (and I!) would deem unsavoury? ”

    Given last year’s antics, I would have to say that it is unreasonable. In a society where the police cannot be depended upon to enforce the law, then the best approach would be to limit the opportunities for the less enlightened to run amok. The area they wish to march through is 95% Catholic. To what good purpose does the OO wish to march through this area? What benefit accrues to the Catholics for tolerating this triumphalist display? Certainly not goodwill from the Loyalists or the OO. All it would do is increase the demands the following year, leading to a tantrum / riot when the OO / Loyalists don’t get their way — as you pointed out previously, these are not so much parades as expressions of insecurity and attempts to express dominance.

    Proud: “Comments such as ‘no orange feet on our road’ and ‘go where you’re wanted’ aren’t very indicative of a willingness to address the issues at hand, and isn’t going to encourage reciprocal gestures from loyalists. Neither is the instant slating of the PC as soon as it appoints one or two orangemen… ”

    Given the actics of the OO and their Loyalist cling-ons, how enthused would you expect the Catholic population to be, Proud? As for reciprocal gestures, you’re now into the realm of fantasy. Were the Catholics to allow the whole parade the whole root, it would not generate goodwill. As you have noted previously, iirc, these marches are expression of insecurity — an attempt to express dominance in the face of changing demographics. Allowing the parade uncontested would only provide them the illusion of dominance and encourage greater foolishness at a later date.

    As for the appointment of OO members to PC, would you put a fox in charge of a hen house? How are the neighborhood groups supposed to view the PC as an honest party when there is the appearance of partisanship? Hoiw are they supposed to have a modicum of trust in the Parades Commission when the organization that pushes the parades is not on an equal footing with the neighborhood groups, vis-a-vis the PC? Again, if they weren’t challenge, it would only reinforce the illusion of dominance and encourage greater foolishness.

  • Harry

    “to maintain protestantism”

    Why not set up a Sunday school then? What has tens of thousands of men walking in military footstep to martial drumbeats got to do with Protestantism? Is it mentioned in the Bible? Did Luther suggest it? John Knox? Calvin? Is there any other religious organisation in the world that processes in paramilitary fashion?

    At a time when the rest of Ireland is taking apart catholicism in the name of secularism there are those in the north who are attempting to consolidate the old certainties through the use of what have, until now, been handy and effective sectarian labels.

    The OO is not a religious organisation, it is a political organisation. OO marches are political not religious acts.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Proud: “As I have stated above, the OO is an organisation with an ethos of defending the protestant faith – no-one is denying that the restrictions mentioned by kensei exist, rather I am arguing that these are the result of the main aim of the Order – to maintain protestantism, and not simply some sort of anti-catholic practice for the sake of it. ”

    I care little for the rationalizations they make, merely what they do. They members have demonstrated themselves to be anti-Catholic, as opposed to “pro-Protestant,” on no few occasions, Proud. The Orange Order is simply a manifestation of the “siege mythology” of the Ulster Protestants. It serves only to divide. Why should its antic be tolerated, given its occasional dalliances with the Loyalist-affiliated bands and worse?

    Likewise, one could argue that the American Klu Klux Klan was a organization to defend the Protestant faith, among other things, and not simply anti-Catholic for the sake of being anti-Catholic. The distinction may help them sleep at night, but it doesn’t change their behavior.

  • Kathy_C

    posted by Kathy C

    hi all,

    Proud, The Wikipedia defines a ‘hate group’ as an orgnaized group or movement that advocates hate, hostility or violence towards members of a race, ethnicitiy, religion or other sector of society.”
    Now, I see the orange order as meeting that definition. It is an organizsed group that advocates per their requirements for entry…hostility towards member of the Catholic religion. The orange order member is called to oppose the fatal errors and doctrines of the Catholic CHurch…the orange order member can not have a Catholic wife…the orange order member should resist the ascendancey of the Catholic Church…its encroachments and the extension of its power…….to me it is a hate group and if you have friends or relatives in it….then you should do what you can to have them leave it…because it’s not a nice group of people. I have stated I see the orange order as akin to the kkk and nazi’s….and if that offends members of your family or your friends then so be it. I stand against hate groups such as the kkk nazi’s and the orange order.

  • Proud

    And how, pray tell, is enabling their insecure knee-jerk reaction to express their dominance helping them “learn to work with this,”

    It’s not – hence my point that a lot of work needs to be done. There is no one voice on the ground, something which is badly needed if we are to improve matters.

    You make reference several times to the fact that I believe many of these disputed parades to be the result of communal insecurity, and I will stand by that. However I appreciate what you say with regards to letting the whole parade through – it would not aid the situation come next year, and would only serve to forment more bad feeling.

    Rather I would like to see a more reasoned reaction from residents’ groups when the OO is allowed through in restricted numbers, such as with this year’s parade for example. it would help give the impression that compromise is achievable, at a time when the Order is finally waking up to its obligations to talk.

    You are also right on the matter of hangers-on, again another good reason why a cohesive voice is needed within loyalism – the sight of various local bully boys will not help acceptance of the Order within the Catholic community, and this needs to be addressed by those on the ground who are willing to make it their responsability to ensure a peaceful and legal event.

    As regards the PC, it is my view that some step was needed to make the Commission more acceptable to the Order and unionism in general, all the better to give its rulings more credibility. You make a very good point regarding the lake of parity with the residents’ groups, this is something which needs addressed quickly.

    However in the meantime we are living with the fact that the PC is a quango, something which the Order has long objected to, and so issues like this are inevitable.

  • Rory

    Pat McLarnon tells us that he usually calls all bluffers “cowboys” and goes on immediately to accuse Brenda of “trying to bluff that the interview at the bookies…”. By that token then Brenda is a “cowboy” or perhaps, “cowgirl”. All I can say is, that if Brenda is a cowgirl, she’s singing like Shania Twain on this track.

    I think it has not escaped readers’ attentions that, when engaging on topics of this nature, I often seem to be wearing a green shirt but I am afraid, Pat, that in this particular tussle between Brenda and you the score looks remarkably like 6-0 in Brenda’s favour at the moment. She certainly has provided enough to give you cause to pause for serious reflection.

  • Garibaldy

    Harry, Kathy, etc.,

    Some Orange parades are political, and indeed sectarian, acts, but many are not. It is a massive organisation, and contains a divergence of opinion within it. There are those in it for genuine religious reasons, just as there are those in it who appear to have a political motive (e.g. the lodge that carries Brian Robinson’s picture). At the height of the trouble over the parades, PSF were saying that 12 were contentious out of 3,000. A tiny proportion, with many offending nobody.

    I don’t think therefore that the OO can be likened to the KKK in its purpose. Elements within it definitely are protestant supremacist. But to say that simply by virtue of it being a protestant organisation it is anti-Catholic is mistaken. Just as the Catholic church has the right to demand that its members do not take communion in non-Catholic church, the OO has the right to demand that its members don’t attend Catholic services.

    Let’s not forget that it is a voluntary association, and people who break the rules of any such organisation can be punished by it.

    I don’t have much time for any of the loyal orders myself. Its very existence feeds sectarianism but I think comparisons to the KKK or the Nazis are overblown, if not hysterical.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Proud: “Rather I would like to see a more reasoned reaction from residents’ groups when the OO is allowed through in restricted numbers, such as with this year’s parade for example. it would help give the impression that compromise is achievable, at a time when the Order is finally waking up to its obligations to talk. ”

    Personally, I have no problem with *LOCAL* bands and the local chapter of the OO marching up and down whatever local streets they want. They (or at least ought to be ) stakeholders in what happens in the town the other 364 days a year and, assuming arguendo, a level of common sense, won’t muck things up too badly.

    Proud: “You are also right on the matter of hangers-on, again another good reason why a cohesive voice is needed within loyalism – the sight of various local bully boys will not help acceptance of the Order within the Catholic community, and this needs to be addressed by those on the ground who are willing to make it their responsability to ensure a peaceful and legal event. ”

    Proud, I admire your optimism. Loyalism is so far from a “cohesive voice” that it would be amusing if the cost weren’t so tragic. To put it plain, the Loyalist “defenders of the Protestant faith” appear willing to entertain themselves shooting other Protestants in the event that there isn’t a handy Catholic to shoot. If anything, some of these Loyalist groups will drag down more legitimate voices long before the relatively Utopian vista you describe comes to pass. Which leads to the next problem — a willingness to address the problem. There is none, at least to my admittedly cynical eye. The city fathers and police wring their hands and hold meetings, but the political will to actually act is disturbingly absent.

    Proud: “As regards the PC, it is my view that some step was needed to make the Commission more acceptable to the Order and unionism in general, all the better to give its rulings more credibility. You make a very good point regarding the lake of parity with the residents’ groups, this is something which needs addressed quickly.”

    Ah, but adding OO members had the equal but opposite effect, delegitimizing the Commission in the eyes of the resident groups and ensuring trouble, all in the name of humoring the source of the problem. Throw in the idosyncratic problems of the nominees, just for laughs, and the credibility of the Commission was more damaged than enhanced.

    Proud: “However in the meantime we are living with the fact that the PC is a quango, something which the Order has long objected to, and so issues like this are inevitable. ”

    Proud, the whole of the state is a quango, except for the shadow-legislature, which is more of a jobs program, keeping some folks in the public eye and out of trouble. The state represents some 70+% of the economic output. Meanwhile, the Loyalists want to argue about the arrangement on the deck chairs whilst the bands play on…

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Garibaldy: “I don’t have much time for any of the loyal orders myself. Its very existence feeds sectarianism but I think comparisons to the KKK or the Nazis are overblown, if not hysterical. ”

    Perhaps it was porrly phrased, but the purpose of my post was to attack the rationale. To be fair, there are differences between the two groups — differences greater than their similarities.

    However, on the single aspect that I addressed with Proud — that their purpose was “defending Protestantism,” not “anti-Catholicism for its own sake,” is a shared value between the two groups.

  • Rory

    Oh, and may I suggest to Proud that the best way to “combat negative perceptions” is to abandon the behaviour that creates these negative images in the first place. It makes little sense for a falling-down obnoxious drunk to hire a PR man to counter any perceptions that he might possibly be an alcoholic.

    P.S. SET FREE THE DUCKS!

    That’s my campaigning warcry for today.

  • Proud

    to me it is a hate group and if you have friends or relatives in it….then you should do what you can to have them leave it…because it’s not a nice group of people. I have stated I see the orange order as akin to the kkk and nazi’s….and if that offends members of your family or your friends then so be it. I stand against hate groups such as the kkk nazi’s and the orange order.

    The problem with this point, Kathy, is that you have defined the entire Order as “not a nice group of people”. I cannot reconcile this with my own experiences of the Order and its members, given that large numbers of my social circle are members or have family who are members, and no-one in their right minds could conveivably call these people nazis or supporters of the KKK. Neither their character or their behaviour could give rise to such comparisons.

    OO marches are political not religious acts.”

    I care little for the rationalizations they make

    Two comments which illustrate what I feel to be an important point. While it is clear that we will never agree on the role of the Order or its ethos, it is important that you make some attempt to understand the rationalizations of its members – this will go along way towards enabling you to further engage with them on these issues.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Proud: “While it is clear that we will never agree on the role of the Order or its ethos, it is important that you make some attempt to understand the rationalizations of its members – this will go along way towards enabling you to further engage with them on these issues. ”

    By your own admission, these parade have an aspect of insecurity / dominance/ This supremecist aspect actively prevents any engagement — the attitude is off-putting to the Catholics and the OO, in their fear-laced delusion of supremecy, sees compromise as weakness.

  • Harry

    Garibaldy, the OO brings together 2 of the most important elements of politics in n. ireland – control of turf & unionism. It is effectively a militia-in-waiting which yearly radicalises the unionist community, not unlike a strange form of annual ‘national service’. The national holiday of n. ireland, which is the culmination of the OO’s activities, celebrates protestantism and unionism. A unionist state for a protestant people, first and foremost.

    Protestantism is politicised in the OO and those within it who happen to be there for religious reasons are also no doubt unionists, however devout they are.

    It is politics, not religion, which is behind these things.

  • Proud

    Dread, I will not deny that I am being extremely optimistic. You’re also spot on in that loyalism is a long way from being cohesive, my first step to address this would be the complete removal from the equation of all paramilitary groupings. I don’t think I could overstate my dislike for them tbh, the sooner they pack it in the better, as you say the problem is a lack of willingness to tackle the problem.

    Maybe Empey/Ervine will be the start of a widespread movement to get to grips with the whole issue, although more than likely not.

    rory: couldn’t agree more, hence the need for, you guessed it, real leadership in loyalist areas that doesn’t revolve around the local Billy Hardnut and his beer-bellied cronies. Incidentally might I also put forward an alternative “BAN THE WHALE!” for consideration as today’s warcry?

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    Rory,

    you can troll with the others if you so like, however if there is anything in my posts about O.O. parades that you disagree with then please feel free to put up an argument. Calling your self green and acting as a cheer leader for an anonymous poster is hardly the basis for a discussion.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Proud: “You’re also spot on in that loyalism is a long way from being cohesive, my first step to address this would be the complete removal from the equation of all paramilitary groupings. I don’t think I could overstate my dislike for them tbh, the sooner they pack it in the better, as you say the problem is a lack of willingness to tackle the problem. ”

    Too many armed factions with their own rackets, their own turf and their own axes to grind. The Loyalist gangs have devolved into little more than for-profit criminal enterprises. While there are some indications that a part of the UDA has some notions of “going straight,” the UVF and the LVF seem to be squaring off for another spate of shootings. The Shoukri mess may put any nobler notions the UDA may have on hold.

    Proud: “Maybe Empey/Ervine will be the start of a widespread movement to get to grips with the whole issue, although more than likely not. ”

    I wouldn’t hold your breath, Proud. Emptey and his murderous muppet don’t inspire a great deal of confidence.