On the protection of sources…

Following on several detailed discussions on Slugger (here and here) of the accusations by Martin Ingram about the loyalities of Martin McGuinness based on what he claims is a confidential MI6 transcript document of a Kathy Johnston offers these thoughts on the protection of sources.From Kathy Johnston

“Liam Clarke knows that the Now Chief Constable Hugh Orde told the family of Mr Notorantonio that my claims that he featured within the Brian Nelson files and that he had been involved in the Stake knife story was true. Mr Clarke sat on that story because his sources did not want the story in the Public Domain. The Newspaper (the People) that did carry the story received an immediate Injunction, forcing that paper to publish a blank page in recognition of the states desire to stop the story from being told. The Injunction made it clear that no mention of the murder could be made and further more a second injunction prevented the paper from telling the world that it had been injuncted in the first place.”

Hugh Orde, who was in charge of the Stevens Inquiry investigation at the time, told The Sunday Times in October 2000 that he had found no link between the Notarantonio murder and Stakeknife. In December 2000 he met the Notarantonio family to tell them that he had no evidence to confirm claims that Notarantonio was killed to protect Stakeknife. He also told them that Stakeknife did exist. In January 2001 Orde confirmed this to The Guardian.

MI brings up the question of injunctions. No action has been taken against the Sunday World – they weren’t, for example, injuncted against publishing their advertised follow up on Martin McGuinness or MI’s article last Sunday. Nor did they have to submit copy to the D Notice Committee, who made no moves to stop any organisation publishing this story, including Slugger. And Sunday World has not been contacted about the alleged J118 document by the police.

When Liam Clarke and I published authentic secret documents – telephone transcripts of MMcG’s conversations with Mo Mowlam and Jonathan Powell – in the paperback edition of our unauthorised biography of Martin McGuinness in April 2003, our house was raided by heavily armed police officers under the direction of Hugh Orde, by then PSNI chief Constable. They seized journalistic contact books, sack loads of personal, legally privileged and journalistic material, computer discs, a laptop and three hard drives. They imaged the laptop and the three hard drives. Simultaneously they used a battering ram to force entry to The Sunday Times office before seizing material from it. They arrested us at two o’clock in the morning and held us at Antrim PSNI station for 23 hours, during which time we were separately questioned by detectives in four interviews each. We were re-arrested the following month and questioned again when we answered police bail. After a year and a half the police sent us a letter advising us that the DPP had decided that we should not be prosecuted ‘at the moment’. That is what happens when you publish genuinely secret documents.

We never at any time revealed the names of our sources for anything in the book – not under police questioning, not to the Bloody Sunday Inquiry when we gave evidence to them. We didn’t perjure ourselves with the police, nor with the Bloody Sunday Inquiry either – even when we had to answer to the threat of a custodial sentence for contempt. That is easy – you just have to say no and keep your mouth shut. MI is obviously aware that we have not revealed his true identity nor his whereabouts despite legal pressure to do so.

Nothing of any evidential value was found in the raid on our house and The Sunday Times office. We haven’t discussed the identity of any of our sources, nor their nature, with anyone and I stress that MI does not know who any of them are. Neither has anyone been convicted in connection with the book. Although one person was charged with leaking us stuff, he was found not guilty.

  • Busty Brenda

    Absolutely spot on. The difference between the two papers is stunning. MI is only a beginner in the journalism game, he is only finding his feet. the Clarkes have been at it a long time. Everybody who lives in NI knows this story. They read and heard on the news that the couple were arrested.

    If MI’s documents are genuine he would have taken the times offer, not necessarily the clarke aspect if he didn’t want to, and let them fly him to the uk to submit his documents for verification. Either he knows they are fake and doesn’t want this disclosed, or he is milking it for the headlines. Either way without verification it is an unfounded allegation, which is a lie.

    the clarkes nor the times would reveal ingrams source. They have played fair up until now, and MI should know at some stage these papers would have to be verified, or did he think we are all thick paddies?

  • Northsider

    I knew this was bull when LC dissed it in the St this weekend. MI turning down the offer to fly over and verify being the killer blow.

    Sound like he knows it judging from the rearguard action mounted by him on Cryptome and his bog (sic).

    Like I said at the time, he has blown his wad and with it all credibility. he’ll never be believed again.

  • Ingram

    Kathy,

    Liam has a firm opinion regarding the Mc Guinness document. He does not know the source of that document.He is entitled to make his point.

    I do not know the source of your document although I have my own opinion on the source and his arrest. The police merely failed to make a case, nothing unusual in that. They failed to prosecute me and Liam when WE BOTH were arrested for offences under the OSA.. It does not mean to say we were not guilty though.

    In respect to the Notorantonio case.

    The family were told and confirmed to others including the British Irish Rights watch who unlike Kathy was a partner in this case with the family. That the following was confirmed In a meeting with Hugh Orde.

    1. That Mr Notorantonio did feature within the UDA/ Nelson file as being a target of the organisation.

    2. That the Agent Stake Knife existed and featured within the same Nelson files.

    In respect to Injunctions. The state argued in failed legal arguments taken by Freddy Scappaticci when he tried to get the book Stake Knife banned that it was becoming impossible to control the flow of information. The Internet has developed and the State has little control over this media. The Sunday Times this week published a piece quoting from a senior Branch officer who said that Martin McGUINNESS WAS AN AGENT OF THE STATE. He said his code name was the Fisherman. The Sunday Times nor the The Sunday world was injuncted nor received a D notice instruction. That is the new world we live in Kathy but back in the old days the Newspapers carrying the real stories had to publish blank pages to get the point across.

    To move on.

    Kathy would be the first to admit that we have a duty to protect our source, I am doing that in a responsible way. They have made it clear to me they do not trust Liam Clarke . I must respect that and he must respect that.

    In respect to protecting sources a very interesting case is developing as we speak.

    A well known journalist sent an e mail last week which I have a copy to a firm of the solicitors representing the Source and INTERNALLY to three other journalists about a confidential source. The contents were in relation to a letter that granted some historic rights to publish some material without fear of taking legal action.Those matters were in relation to very serious crimes.

    The source and his solicitor are somewhat perturbed by the threatening tone of the e mail and more importantly having his confidential details being circulated with other journalists without his consent. I understand that legal action is being considered so we may yet see the issue of source protection make it to the courts.Now that would be interesting.

    Source protection is very important to me.

    Martin Ingram.

  • Ingram

    Northsider.

    For the benefit of the slow. Liam is making the point about the document. The role of Martin McGUINNESS has an Agent is a common belief and he clearly trusts this contact to make such a bold claim nin the Sunday Times Newspaper. Raymond Gilmour also makes his point well about how he was allowed to stay in position so long and cause so much damage to the IRA. Liam Quotes extensively from a senior Branch man who says clearly that Martin McGUINNESS was an Agent.
    Liam also quotes from Op Taurus and the secret document leaked to Liam about the states interest in protecting Martin McGuinness from prosecution.

    Brian Keenan( Senior Ra) is also on record has being a believer that McGuinness is an Agent of the British state.

    The only issue between me and Liam is the document and of course protection of Sources.

    Martin

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    You have to laugh at the necessity of the Clarke/Johnston tag team to label (correctly) that Ingram is a bullshitter. Though it has nothing to do with exposing the truth and the need to get things right. No, it has more to do with the realisation that if some believe the Ingram allegations then it makes a mockery of the ‘warts and all’ biography that they did on MMcG. While earning plaudits from the anti SF brigade for their novel, they must have missed the most daring secret of all, or so the story goes. It then follows that their sources weren’t too good after all.

    Ingram has to turn a pound and the need to try and keep himself centre stage is an obvious financial imperative. The same can also be said of the tag team who are facing questions about their own credibility.

  • Northsider

    “The role of Martin McGUINNESS has an Agent is a common belief”

    It is a common belief that Santa exists, only those who believe it are either under seven years old, or locked up.

    I am referring to the array of sources quoted by Clarke, and by the Brian Rowan, and other journalists who pour scorn on your claims.

    I hold no brief for McGuinness, but I do feel compelled to challenge nameless, faceless shadowy figures making unsubstantiated allegations aimed at scuppering political progress in my country.

    Also, without your ‘document’ you have no case. You already admit your vendetta is personal, and we all know how the hear can really screw with the head.

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    ‘Raymond Gilmour also makes his point well about how he was allowed to stay in position so long and cause so much damage to the IRA.’

    Totally reliable source there.

    ‘Liam Quotes extensively from a senior Branch man who says clearly that Martin McGUINNESS was an Agent.’

    Totally reliable source there.

    ‘Brian Keenan( Senior Ra) is also on record has being a believer that McGuinness is an Agent of the British state.’

    Where is this record?

  • Ingram

    Northsider,

    The case against him is clear.

    Why should the state protect him ?

    What is the public Interest?

    Barney Rowan and his sources said the murder of Jerry McCabe was not by the IRA ? lol. journalist need to know the subject and challenge their sources.

    Please see www. martiningram.blogspot.com for full details on Mr Rowans piece.

    Pat,

    Quote”Ingram has to turn a pound”Unquote

    How many times do I need to correct you. LOL You would know that I donated my fee to a cross body charity.

    See you tonight.

    Regards Martin Ingram.

  • Northsider

    “The case against him is clear.”

    It is anything but. Even arch-SF enemies like McIntyre have dismissed it out of hand, and have described your ‘evidence’ as worthy of a Diplock court.

  • elfinto

    They failed to prosecute me and Liam when WE BOTH were arrested for offences under the OSA.

    Your arrest helps with the cover story, deosn’t it?

  • Nevin

    [i]When Liam Clarke and I published authentic secret documents …[/i] … Kathy Johnston

    I wonder why Liam and Kathy didn’t mention the meeting between Hurd and McGuinness and McLaughlin. Surely a meeting with the then Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary merited a mention?

  • heck

    all this talk about arresting journalists, d notices and injunctions to stop journalists covering the collusion issue.

    was’nt there some idiot on this site who said he was proud to be british because it had a “free press”? I guess he meant free to put tits on page 3.

  • Porkie Pies!

    Who does Mr Clarke think he is. Why should a journalist run to him for a red star prior to publication and who is this Kathy Johnston girl. What a silly argument.

    The issue here is clear, Clarke is writing a book. He has had two opportunities to deny it. On the record Liam are you doing a book and will it contain Martin McGuinness.Will you donate your fee to charity like Ingram did.

    Martin McGuinness needs to answer a number of legitimate questions posed and the police need to explain why he was never pursued although it appears they had the material to charge him.

    It is clear Ingram has principles unlike some ex stickies who have Relatives who rob banks and play with dirty funny money from North Korea.

  • Turbo Paul

    ‘Brian Keenan( Senior Ra) is also on record has being a believer that McGuinness is an Agent of the British state.’

    Where is this record?

    Please could someone direct me to this record?????

    Forget what has been offered before by MI, if this can be verified then its “Game over” for McG.

    The reason is if Brian Keenhan, and his superior, Thomas Slab Murphy,(Nelson Mandela of Irish Republican Movement)believe McG to be a Brit agent then regardless of what anyone else thinks its over for McG, all that is left is the timing.

    Or are there to be allegations of collusion from Brian Keenhan, made by MI, because of his role as “Dis-armament Chief” and the close personal relationship with the Canadian General?????

    And if those allegations appear then will it be said by MI that Martin McGuinness believes Brian Keenhan to be an agent??????????

    No need to verify documents, just guide us to the supposed Brian Keenhan opinion of Martin McGuinness as a British Agent?????????

  • Gerry

    ex-stickies lol

  • Maura

    ‘Brian Keenan( Senior Ra) is also on record has being a believer that McGuinness is an Agent of the British state.’

    Where is this record?’

    Ingram, you are like a child caught with his hand in the sweetie jar ( or in this case telling lies). Remember the adage, ‘Oh What a Tangled Web we weave, when first we practise to deceive’.
    You are now portraying a lack of belief in your own lies, and readily naming people like Kennan in an attempt to be credible. It is NOT working. What a disgraceful lie you told here.
    If I was a cynical type, I might think you are trying to cause division within the leadership of Republicanism. Would that be cynical of me?

  • Ingram

    Turbo Paul.

    Quote”Brian Keenan, the international Marxist and arms trader, whose suspicions of McGuinness’ role in his own arrest in Operation Hawk in 1979 have never entirely faded.

    Quote”In 1979 Brian Keenan, who was running a ruthless bombing campaign in Britain and Northern Ireland, was arrested after being flagged down by McGuinness on the roadway where they had a brief conversation. When he was in jail Keenan asked that McGuinness be investigated by the IRA, but he did not pursue the matter after he was released.

    These are two quotes from Liams & Kathys work over the last few years.

    I believe that Brian Keenan made is request that McGuinness be investigated by the IRA in 1979, it was discovered in secret comms. I know Indemedia have some more back ground on the issue.

    Martin Ingram

  • Mick Fealty

    Please remember to at least look for the ball before you take a lunging great kick at it.

  • Ingram

    Maura,

    Sorry luv our posts crossed.

    You seem to have difficulty understanding the issues here. Briefly shall we deal with them.

    1. Avoided Internment. Nothing unusual in that just lucky to have got out before others did not.

    2. Lived most of his life in the Bog Side , grew up and assumed the profile of a active military
    IRA commander. The truth is he took part in next to nothing, avoiding active hands on experiance like the plague blaming his bad eye sight.

    3. Avoided any charges/ convictions throughout the seventies for terrorist related offences in the North of Ireland although a member of Northern Command PIRA. He remained at home at night time with his slippers and family while Adams was lurching from one safe house to another. That is Lucky. Avoided any attacks by those nasty Loyalists. A bit more luck.

    Into the eighties.

    Two major Super Grass trials. more than fifty IRA people arrested and Derry city PIRA reduced to a shambles. The OC Northern Command and major Derry City player avoids arrest although both Agents claim to have first hand knowledge of Martin McGuinness directing IRA activity. ( Raymond Gilmour makes this point in Liam piece yesterday very well) Now that is lucky would you not say . Those naughty RUC men could not find energy to arrest him even though they had the evidence. So Martin stays at home directing the war in the North from his Northern command bunker in the Bog side. Waving at the odd passing Army foot patrol. Once more avoided any Loyalists attacks for the whole decade, although one or two were planned, they just happened to be foiled. That was lucky.

    4. Mr Hegarty.

    promotes my man from zero to Hero in weeks. Eamon McCann made the point this weekend that Franko was known to Republicans has a stickie who had been caught once passing information to the Army. A nice man but not very bright.

    What does my mate Martin do ? he promotes him BUT not before a number of leading Republicans take McGuinness to task for promoting a Ex Stickie and known tout to the role within Northern Command Quarter master dept. That is to say he was given custody of the latest Libyan arms needed to take the fight to the nasty Brits. From Zero to Hero.

    Oh No the Luck runs out?? Hegarty is a British informer Oh no Martin comes under pressure to explain Why he promoted him when others said he was a tout?

    Ah the answer to all his problems, get him back and whack him with a another friendly Agent Mr Internal security man, my mate Freddy.

    Luck is back on his side now! The Brits let their Agent go and know he is staying with his mother and the nasty Brits do not go around to inform him is life is in danger. Oh No Freddy tells us when How and who is going to whack him Oh No the luck is out again for Martin ! or is it!

    No, the Luck keeps strong, the Brits let their man go to the meeting arranged by Martin and Franko gets whacked, Oh that is Lucky. all is well now in the world of Martin McGuinness. The poor mother is distraught and tells the world what a nasty man my mate Martin is.She says he went down on one leg to reassure her, Eamon McCANN says he believes her. Martin says he does not know what the fuss is about he knows nothing. That was Lucky Eh. Back to the security of the Northern command bunker in deepest Bog side. The entrannce to the command centre fooled the Brits, they could never find it. That was lucky.

    I will keep this brief.

    Mr Cook does is little reporting. Martins luck seems to change. The RUC are forced into a serious inquiry. The Police officer do a good job and are ready to arrest him and believe they have enough to charge him with terrorist related offences. Oh no Martins Luck seems to have deserted him.

    Oh No here we go again the lucky lad is rescued by those nice men at the NIO, they say he is to nice to arrest and he is soon to negotiate the future of Northern Ireland. You nasty policemen stop any inquiries and leave the leader of Northen Command PIRA in his Bog side bunker to continue causing mayehem for a little while longer. Martin seems pleased to accept this charity and never complains.

    Shall I go on or should I ask Martin to buy me a Lottery ticket for the weekend, that boy has some luck Eh. A tenners worth Marty.

  • Maura

    ‘Sorry luv our posts crossed.

    You seem to have difficulty understanding the issues here. Briefly shall we deal with them.’

    I have no difficulty knowing lies when I see them. I have no difficulty knowing illogic when I see it. I have no difficulty in recognising a has been who is desperate for some recognition, but instead has been cast aside as the insignificance that he is!
    A Question: Are you aware there there are MANY former ‘republicans’ who did not face prison, and FRU/Loyalist/RUC/British Army/UDR/RIR/RESERVE death squads?

  • ‘Martin’
    Regarding the story in the link (cryptome), what the heck is going on?

    Liam Clarke asks some very good questions regarding:

    1) Your ‘evidence’

    2) What changed in such a short space of time, one minute you have no evidence and the next you have had it 18 months or was that 2 years?

    All very ‘interesting’

  • friendlyCreggan
  • Ingram

    Maura,

    Please outline the lies. The outline I provided to you above is real.

    Mr McGUINNESS IS A PROTECTED REPUBLICAN FACT .

    He did promote Franko and even Eamon mCcann could not believe that and let me remind you what Eamon said on the Radio.

    The Martin McGUINNESS he knew would never have a agree to to partition and a role in a British administration. The McGuinness he thought he knew is not the McGuinness he really he is.

    He is of course Martin ” Lucky” McGuinness.

    If I get time I will do part two of Martin`s lucky career tonight the late eighties and into the nineties. LOL

    Creggan.

    Documents have been with me and others for over 18 months.

    Thanks for bringing that to my attention I will respond to it later, No problem.

    Martin.

    PS . A person who I have grown to trust and take stock of their views sent me this excerpt from Ed Maloneys book. It is interesting.

    “from moloney secret history, pages 446-553

    the Executive case, put mostly by mckevitt and gillen basically resolved around their lack of trust in the adams camp and the fear that having been debilitated once by a cease fire the ira could only get weaker if it went into a second one. The ira rank and file was also distrustful, they said, and would react badly to the decision There was the possibility of major dissension a fear that the talks would get nowhere and a conviction that the ira was being pushed so far into a corner that it would have no alternative but to continue with a stratey that would lead to its demise.

    There were angry references to what the executive clearly regrded as a bogus promise given to it by the army council chariman martin mcguinness. At the previous executive meeting in may mcguinness had given a firm assuracnce that there would be no second cease fire the only people talking about a cease fire he had said were members of the executive and this grarantee had been repeated at the june metting of army council GHQ staff and OCs in donegal. that made it twice since the 1996 convention that mcguinness had given such a pledge three times within nine months if the execugive version was to be believed.

    Adams finally called a halt to the discussion…….

    a meeting that had been testy and bad tempered ended with mcguinness telling the executive that the cease fire decision would be made public at midnight on friday july 18.

    He is not the most popular man and many have long memories. He should remember that.

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    ’Brian Keenan( Senior Ra) is also on record has being a believer that McGuinness is an Agent of the British state.’

    Quite a definite statement there.

    ‘I believe that Brian Keenan made is request that McGuinness be investigated by the IRA in 1979, it was discovered in secret comms. I know Indemedia have some more back ground on the issue.’

    Not so definite there. Quoting Clarke and Johnston as proofat a time when you are slagging them off appears rather odd.

    It is when he gets into the specifics that MI starts to flounder. The need to quote extensively from Mc Cann & Moloney and even Clarke et al as if they are the last word on anything exposes the fact that MI is in possession of no material on this case.
    The scatter gun approach of hoping that if a lot of mud is thrown some at least will stick is again an indication of the weak case,

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    ‘I am not accusing Martin Ingram of making it up. However it is something that he heard at second hand and did not know from his own knowledge. He has now convinced himself that it is true through frequent repetition but without any new evidence. I think this is one example of a process of wishful thinking where he begins to accept familiar allegations as true.’

    The cat fight between the two journoes(sic)may be infantile, but that is a quality put down in anyone’s book.

  • Ingram

    Pat,

    Do not be silly mate regarding Brian Keenan. Republicans are well aware of the friction between these two and it has being going on for years.

    Pat, Me and Liam are at a disagreement over the document and whether I will alow him to examine it or not.On the broader issue their is concensus.

    I used the two sources to hand, nothing more nothing less.

    Now that you ask here is a few more.

    There’s also a pretty good account of this in Chris Ryder’s book The
    RUC, pp 216-220.

    This piece with thanks to Kathy.

    On 20 March 1979 police watched as Keenan and McGuinness drove in separate cars towards the border.The RUC decided to intervene, and set up a roadblock just outside the mainly Protestant town of Banbridge, which, at 17 miles from the border was the last safe place for them to intervene. Keenan was in the first car stopped, a brown Honda Civic. McGuinness was following Keenan in a yellow Toyota..They were all detained under the Prevention of Terrorism Act where they tried to bluff their way. After a few days McGuinness and two other people were released with no charge, much to their surprise. However, three days later Keenan was in an army helicopter with anti terrorist squad detectives from Scotland Yard, who had a warrant for his arrest under the Explosive Substances Act. As they crossed the English coastline,Keenan claimed that two RAF jets buzzed them. It was an exciting trip, he told prisoners in Brixton jail, where he awaited trial.

    In his pockets, police found three bank notes, one Libyan and two Irish, all roughly torn in half. The other halves were never found. They
    also found a diary, with the entry: Hallo, Brian, my brother. Here is some money. This was a code that had been used frequently in the
    past as a recognition signal between IRA and contacts in Libya. The signal was completed only on receipt of both the diary entry and the missing halves of the notes. This discovery compromised a major weapons shipment from Libya and in August 1979 a pilot, Sadiq Baahri,
    disappeared after his plane was forced down at Benghazi in Libya. It was rumoured that he was subsequently jailed on Ghadafyâs orders after
    refusing to fly weapons to Ireland, where he feared that Keenanân™s arrest had compromised him.

    For years after his arrest, rumours persisted that Keenan blamed McGuinness for setting him up, and he was said to have told fellow prisoners that McGuinness had signalled to the RUC at a previous roadblock.Conspiracy theorists claimed that McGuinness™s rigid Catholic doctrine had influenced him to dump the Marxist Keenan on ideological grounds; for others, it was simply a victory for the new strategy over the armed struggle. It was common knowledge among fellow republicans that their relationship was strained at times, but it was Keenanâns carelessness that led to his being seen with McGuinness, who was the RUC™s prime
    target. McGuinness was too shrewd to let his guard drop for a moment, but nevertheless he and Adams were certainly the main beneficiaries of
    Keenan’s detention. Keenan would undoubtedly have opposed their embryonic plans to engage in political activity in the Irish Republic without an accompanying military strategy, and his absence gave McGuinness a free hand as sole Chief of Staff.”

    Ingram Comment. Make that a fiver`s worth of lottery tickets Martin with your luck who needs a tenners worth.

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    ‘Do not be silly mate regarding Brian Keenan. Republicans are well aware of the friction between these two and it has being going on for years.’

    You made quite a few definitive statements, based as I believe, agreeing with Clarke (moan), on the basis that you state things over and over again you end up convinced by your own opinion. I am sure psvchiatrists have a term for that.
    So to what Keenan actually believes, as he isn’t on record regarding MMcG we are once again expected to take what you believe at face value.

    As for the Ryder quotation, once again you are using another journalist on the basis of what is written and taken it as fact. ‘Rumours persisted’ & ‘he was said to have told fellow prisoners’ all very vague one would have to say.

    Scatter gun and really a bit lame. You promised much and have delivered very little and even journoes who have a hatred of SF think that you are trying it on a bit.

  • Ingram

    Pat,

    The material is in the public domain Pat and you know it.Brian KEENAN has been quoted many times on this issue and has never issued a denial.

    How would you like to share my fivers worth of lottery tickets Pat or better still ask Gerry Kelly he seems very quiet at the moment.LOL

    You are right about Sinn Fein only because they are corrupt and not working towards a United Ireland. Like Dermot Ahern said he would not want to enter Government with Sinn Fein for he would be sitting next to a British Agent? who was he refering to I wonder????

    Answers on a Post card to Box 850 all cards will be re directed from Box 500.

    Martin

  • Busty Brenda.

    Pat me and Liam are at a disagreement over the document and whether I will show it to him or not, to examine it.’

    This document could have been forged in the light of historical analysis and revelations. You say the IRA knows this to be true because it fits. BUT it could have been made to fit. For all anyone knows it could have been written eighteen months ago from someone with the know how to do so after pouring over books and interviews from people involved at the time.

    Until the document is examined by an expert who knows what he is looking at and can tell the age of the document by subjecting it to analysis, then it is not worth the paper it is written on.

    A lot of the complaints you are posting about mcguinness, as was said by mccann on RFE, can be explained due to the contradictions in the PRM going along the lines of the peace process and the GFA and the stepping stones policy embraced by the Adams leadership. That does not make them agents.

    They may have brought the movement to where it is today, and it may not be everyones cup of tea, but that doesn’t mean they were agents. McG is historically known to have been in contact with british intelligence, thru Oakley, but again that was the process they embraced, that is not to say he took money for information and had a handler.

    All you have there in this document is a piece of paper incriminating the british state, you have no authentication it is genuine, other than your own say so, and no postive link between it and mcg or anyother member of the republican movement.

    Quite frankly, to produce it without proof, with no link to who is talking in it, or when it is written, how old the document is, and IT HAS ALREADY BEEN DISSED BY AN EXPERT is only shit stirring.

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    The material is in the public domain Pat and you know it.Brian KEENAN has been quoted many times on this issue and has never issued a denial.

    I am unaware of anything like this being in the public domain. Similarly I am unaware of Keenan being asked a direct question on the issue.

    ‘How would you like to share my fivers worth of lottery tickets Pat or better still ask Gerry Kelly he seems very quiet at the moment.LOL’

    I am uaware of Keely being asked any questions on the MMcG allegations. It is strange you are making so much out of the fact on Gerry Kelly hasn’t said anything. Perhaps it is a case of no one asking him.

    ‘You are right about Sinn Fein only because they are corrupt and not working towards a United Ireland.’

    If that is an attempt to flex your pro UI credentials it is simply flacid.

    ‘Like Dermot Ahern said he would not want to enter Government with Sinn Fein for he would be sitting next to a British Agent? who was he refering to I wonder????’

    Having seen the interview it was very much tongue in cheek and an opportunistic attack on political rivals.

    Your banter, while amusing (at times), do little to disguise the fact that your story on MMcG is very nearly running on empty.

  • Betty Boo

    Pat, call me pedantic but how can something nearly run empty if something never had anything in it in the first place?

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    Betty,

    i’m referring to the mileage that even the more sympathetic journoes have given to the story. Though MI has to be commended for his ‘let’s get it on’ call for a face to face discussion. No such thing etc etc.

  • Betty Boo

    Pat,
    more and more I tend to believe that the public interest wee Jack is always throwing around is that of our protection from such dented notions and resulting self harm.

  • Thir Eoghain

    Martin,

    Sitting on these documents for 18 months plus without getting them verified or analysed forensically before making your allegations is a little short-sighted and totally irresponsible.

    What headlines can we expect in the papers this weekend “Big Gerry is a Manchurain Candidate”??

    Wasnt Hitler that said the bigger the lie, the more likely the masses are to beleive it… In this case I guess he was wrong.

    Whatever little credibility you have had, you’ve now pissed away in pursing such claims without any unequivocal evidence.

  • darling deirdre

    Is this slugger through the looking glass? Ingrams a republican and Mcguinness a brit? Could they be related? I think we should be told!

    From Darling Deirdre

  • John Johnson

    Martin Ingram, call it a day. There is no evidence against McGuinness. He negotiated with the Brits for decades and got a bad deal. He is not the only one in Irish history to have done that. The Brits had the power to shape things their way and republicans did not. None of it means McGuinness is in the pay of MI6. When those normally prepared to give you a fair wind on your allegations don’t back you on this or even criticise you, it is time to leave it; even if for another day if anything emerges. If it does no one will be able to keep it down.

  • Danny

    Pat,

    Ingram is making a point about Brian, that is known and accepted in Republican circles and you know it so stop playing games. It weakens any argument you may have.

    Liam,

    You have refused to confirm after being asked three times regarding the book. I take it then you are indeed writing a book and any attack upon the document should be seen in that light. It is clear from your work that you to thick McGuinness is an Agent yet you seem reluctant to express yourself clearly.

    Kathy.

    I notice you did not take issue with Ingram regarding the ” Well Known journalist” piece written by Ingram. I have noticed in Ingrams writing subtle signs, I take it this was in connection with Liam ? is that true on who did he write a e mail to ?

    What was the crimes he appears to be concealing and why use is position to intimidate?

    Ingram.

    I understand your reasons in respect to your sources, I accept this is a long game BUT can we speed things up a bit, Republicans like me want this man to be ousted for what, many know him to be.

    Danny

  • Nevin

    Danny, I thought republicans would be content to see McGuinness collaborating with ‘traitors’ in the British establishment in order to hasten a United Ireland?

  • Ingram

    Pat,

    Quote”Having seen the interview it was very much tongue in cheek and an opportunistic attack on political rivals

    LOL. Pat could you source that interview for me having been trying to locate same. Thanks mate for your kind words and in anticipation of your help in these matters.

    Quote”Your banter, while amusing (at times), do little to disguise the fact that your story on MMcG is very nearly running on empty

    Pat,

    As you may or not know Republicans are asking the real questions:

    Here is just one within a chat room.

    Author:
    Philip
    [ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ]
    ——————————————————————————–
    Date Posted: 07:32:44 06/07/06 Wed

    ——————————————————————————–
    The writing is on the wall for brothers Martin and William McGuinness.

    A spate of Graffiti on walls all over Derry’s Bogside accused Martin and William McGuinness of being agents of MI6 and Special Branch.

    William McGuinness and Charlie McMenemin spent all of last nights painting over the slogans. Wee Charlie is famous for being the only person to walk out of a diplock court after being found not guilty of attacking the two corporals at Casment Park even though he is clearly seen breaking the side window of their car on television.

    You see the real questions are being asked in the heartlands not on Slugger mate , this is just a talking shop for Arm Chair generals.LOL.

    Another Interesting post came my way today.

    mcguinness cleared to vet operations…page 317

    just before the death of seamus mcelwaine, killed by the sas in county fermanagh in april 1986, northern command got permission to vet most ira operations in northern ireland in a bid to forestall further electoral damage, ‘there had been some bad operations, politically bad operations, and this was done to correct that, recalled one activist. ‘McGuinness, the northern commander got authority from the army council to vet operations. Before that area commanders would run through their plans in very general terms, for example, ‘i have a policenan or a british patrol,’ with the chief ofstaff or director of operations. Now people had to go into the detail of the operations.

    Ira activists had an almost pathological fear of sharing operational intelligence with people they did not know or wo did not come form their area. No one ever suggested that martin mcguinness or any other senior figures at his level were passing oninformation to the british but the very fact that the circle of operatnalknowledge was widened beyond those chosen to go on the mission heightened fears of leaks, surveillance and even treachery.

    Ingram Comment :Now, that was avery interesting period in both Martins and the RM campaign. Martin had only recently got over the Hegarty disaster regarding the massive loss of Libyan arms.

    Then another major loss was suffered by the IRA when young buck McELWAINE was whacked and my mate Seanie was very lucky to escape.

    Oh yes and then onto the turning point in the campaign. Loughall.

    Hear is an extract from a Republican Mr Mc writing for his publication the blanket back in 2004 .

    Quote”The Loughall massacre certainly throws up a range of challenges. But unionism is not alone in facing them. One avenue that will never be fully explored, no matter how many meetings take place between Mairead Kelly and Hugh Orde, is the possibility that IRA volunteers were deliberately targeted at Loughall after the British Government was made aware by a key element within the republican leadership that it was willing to parley and settle for considerably less than those who died that night were intent on securing; something that they might have revolted against had they not have been slain; something which in order to succeed necessitated their removal. Whether the British killed those volunteers to facilitate what later became known as the peace process may by the real story of the Loughall massacre.

    To be continued.

  • Ingram

    Ingram comment:Today the fog of war is lifting, questions that are being put to Martin will not go away. He need to confront them , not avoid them like this poster makes a very valid point on a Republican site.

    Author:
    Martin’s fatalism reeks of guilt
    [ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ]
    ——————————————————————————–
    Date Posted: 04:28:04 06/06/06 Tue
    In reply to: Radio Free Eireann ‘s message, “Martin Ingram Interview On Radio Free Eireann” on 19:17:59 06/04/06 Sun

    ——————————————————————————–
    Martin McGuinness has told UTV that he is “powerless” stop these allegations from being printed. This reeks of guilt – surely no innocent person would resign themselves to being named as a British agent.

    And why aren’t the other shinners running to defence like they did with Scappaticci? Could it be that they are all looking the other way because they too are informers?

    Ingram Comment. LOL

    Martin Ingram.

    PS. Danny sorry mate, this one is well planned like a piece of German Engineering.LOL

  • elfinto

    Republicans like me ….

    Come on, yer avvin a laff?

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Ingram: “Martin McGuinness has told UTV that he is “powerless” stop these allegations from being printed. This reeks of guilt – surely no innocent person would resign themselves to being named as a British agent. ”

    He is powerless to stop newspapers from printing stories. Additionally, it is well-nigh impossible to prove a negative, particularly given the dearth of information. McGuiness could deny until he was blue in the face and you’d make some comment like “See! See how desperate he is in his denials! He *MUST* be guilty.”

    Hell, even if the documents currently in “evidence” are proved false, I’m sure someone will oblige with a “fabricated, but accurate” spin, just to keep the tale in play. His best bet is to keep low, get on with business and wait for the current crop of “evidence” to be debunked or verified. After that, its a matter of seeing what happens next.

  • Maura

    ‘It is when he gets into the specifics that MI starts to flounder. The need to quote extensively from Mc Cann & Moloney and even Clarke et al as if they are the last word on anything exposes the fact that MI is in possession of no material on this case.
    The scatter gun approach of hoping that if a lot of mud is thrown some at least will stick is again an indication of the weak case’

    The need to quote from ANYONE, the need to drag others, such a Brian Keenan into the discussion, the constant presence on a blog attempting to gain some credibilty ( along with the snide insults) tells me that Mr.Ingram has no case against Martin Mc Guinness. His activites are simply the dying throes of someone from the past who wants to be a player in the present and future.
    In state/political/government matters, such as these, behaviour such as Ingram’s is seriously flawed and I must say quite laughable. It is like the child caught doing accusing fingers in the playground.
    Let him state his case, produce his evidence, on his own merit, if not, dismissed!

  • More like a Skoda than a Mercedes, Martin, hope you had it serviced

  • Betty Boo

    Never mind that neither Skoda nor Mercedes are german but the whole fuss is more a case of waste recycling then engineering of any kind.

  • friendlyCreggan

    Ingram
    You sound like a man who is struggling desperately to find some form of ‘backing’ for your claims about MMcG, scouring message boards and the like?

    If you are so confident of nailing Martin McG, you’d have no need to do this surely?

    There has been anti-SF graffiti appearing at regular intervals in Republican areas of Derry since the GFA was signed in 1998 so please don’t be fooled into believing that this graffiti is justifying your claims one iota

    Grasping at straws perhaps?

    Can we expect more ‘revelations’ this weekend?

  • friendlyCreggan

    PS Ingram

    I like your ‘source’ for your ‘backing’ (not)quoted above

    http://www.voy.com/187668/

    A bunch of ‘dissidents’ who have been rambling on like this for the past 8 years or so 🙂

  • Maura

    ‘You sound like a man who is struggling desperately to find some form of ‘backing’ for your claims about MMcG, scouring message boards and the like?

    If you are so confident of nailing Martin McG, you’d have no need to do this surely?’

    Creggan, you made my point so much better than I did. In matters this serious, and with such ramifications for a whole polity (sic), why would a person armed with FACTS, indisputable FACTS, bother to troll the internet, using names, to support his claims? You don’t see serious/important figures in any walk of life, representing themselves in such a way.
    Absolutely absurd!
    What I see are the attention cravings of a ‘has been’ who longs for the time when he was of any ‘relevance!'(sic) His role as an FRU officer often placed him in a position of deciding who lived and who died- a sort of “god complex”. Now cast aside to let the real players get on with the real business, his nefarious actions were ultimately of no value to anyone, especially himself. His FRU role required an ability to lie, deceive, set people up for assassination, and murder. And now he wants his reward, but the trouble is, once a lying manipulator, always a lying manipulator!

  • Maura

    ‘Martin McGuinness has told UTV that he is “powerless” stop these allegations from being printed. This reeks of guilt – surely no innocent person would resign themselves to being named as a British agent. “

    No I’ll tell you what it reeks of. It reeks of Martin Mc Guinness having the class, decency and fortitude not to troll the internet with you, throwing around people’s names, looking for credibilty and attention.
    Or he is too busy being the important player than you so desire to be?

  • friendlyCreggan

    Thanks Maura

    I’m only stating the obvious as have many others on here who are more than likely bored to tears by it all YET can’t help responding at the same time 🙂

  • Nevin

    [i]It reeks of Martin Mc Guinness having
    the class, decency and fortitude[/i]

    Classic, Maura. Can this be the same Comical Marty who high-tailed it on horseback to Derry something in the manner of Captain Lundy all those years ago?

    PS my security word is horse**!!!!

  • friendlyCreggan

    Nevin
    I suppose you believe that story as well about ‘Fisherman’ being the codename? 🙂

  • John Johnson

    None of the two Martins have come out of this smelling of roses. Both had more credibility before any of it started. I don’t think McGuinness is an agent but unlike Maura I don’t think he emerges untainted by the mud that has been thrown. As for Ingram, when in a hole ….

  • Nevin

    Hi Creggan, did you read my post about Comical Marty collaborating with ‘traitors’ in the British establishment? How would that make him a tout? 😉

    PS Fisherman seems a bit too obvious ….

  • Gerry

    can this be the same comical marty

    nevin

    do you mean like a clown without the makeup, thats how he was described by some big wig years ago.

    Jhn I don’t think he’s an agent either, but hes definitely got some questions to answer.

  • Maura

    ‘ I don’t think McGuinness is an agent but unlike Maura I don’t think he emerges untainted by the mud that has been thrown. ‘

    Does anyone emerge untainted when mud has been thrown at them, really? And is this Ingram’s true intention? Thus, if some of the mud sticks, does this destabilise republicans?
    On the other hand, unfounded accusations like this about Mc Guinness have been around a while, right? Yet Nationalist voters have voted for Mc Guinness repeatedly in elections. I would need to go check his vote and compare the numbers as these allegations surfaced, so I am not sure if there has been any effect, but the fact remains that Nationalist voters have confidence in Mc Guinness. And I dare say, they will continue to do so.

  • Ingram

    A nice piece to go to bed reading.

    Gerry guilt!
    He hasn’t helped in the McGuinness saga

    By Gail Walker

    06 June 2006
    The reports in the Press naming Martin McGuinness as a British spy have taken on a momentum of their own. And Gerry Adams hasn’t helped.

    Firstly, it seems wild horses couldn’t get the two SF leaders in front of the same camera. Secondly, Adams’s claim that the reports were aimed at getting Martin killed introduced a whole new dimension.

    The claim drew attention to the real jury sitting in judgment. It’s like The X Factor. Louis, Sharon and Simon can opine all they like about the acts, but it’s the phone-in voters who really count.

    And, as we know, you certainly don’t want to be voted off the show by the texters of west Tyrone and south Armagh.

    You don’t get to return to a quiet career in panto once Stumpy and Squinty make their minds up.

    Instead of damping the crisis down, Gerry only inflamed the situation, reminding everyone how high the stakes are.

    Just imagine how intense the scrutiny of Martin’s career is among republican veterans who have seen the integrity of their movement trashed over the last 18 months by the revelations about Scappaticci and Donaldson.

    Grubby allegations

    The fact is, republicans are now prepared to believe anything about anybody.

    After all, the suspect is a former Minister for Education in a partitionist Northern Ireland government at Stormont.

    For some Provos, that alone makes the current grubby allegations seem insignificant.

    The sheer volume of information coming out about McGuinness’s career as a Chief of Staff of the IRA – his flawed management style, if you like, as he appointed acknowledged touts to senior positions – can only fuel the paranoia in the ranks of the IRA.

    The organisation believed its own propaganda about how noble it was. Yet republicans, it turns out, were just as keen on the brown envelope stuffed with fivers as their loyalist counterparts.

    But it was republicans who harped on and on about the collusion between elements of the security forces and loyalist paramilitaries. They knew very well that the British aim was to infiltrate and eradicate those gangs.

    Propaganda

    But SF went for the easy and – as it turns out – very stupid propaganda line. The British, they maintained, were running loyalist gangs so that loyalists would kill Catholics for them.

    Now it’s clear that MI5 and MI6 and all the other security wings were running dozens of agents within the IRA. Not to kill Protestants on behalf of the Government, but so that the IRA would be dismantled from within.

    History might say that’s exactly what happened. Even worse, some in the IRA might say that, too.

    So it made sense for Gerry to introduce the idea that someone who wanted Martin McGuinness killed would simply use false allegations of being an informer to get the IRA to do it.

    As the relatives of many IRA men murdered by the IRA as informers know, that’s exactly what’s been happening for years. The rest of us are only finding out now just how corrupt and nasty and futile and pointless – and unnecessary – the whole damn so-called ‘war’ was.

    She is right, the two Gerry`s have been very careful over this one , they know the stakes are high. They know he is in trouble with the grass roots of the Ra.

    I will sleep well tonight, I bet Lucky is tossing and turning.

    Martin

  • Ingram

    Mick,

    Quote from Johnty Brown. “The ex-CID man recalls Haddock crying like a baby and confessing to the 1993 sectarian killing of Catholic woman Sharon McKenna.

    But Haddock was not prosecuted because he was a protected Branch agent.

    Another not in the public interest. The place is littered with them, do the lot of them. Handlers and Touts.

    Martin

  • elfinto

    But it was republicans who harped on and on about the collusion between elements of the security forces and loyalist paramilitaries. They knew very well that the British aim was to infiltrate and eradicate those gangs.

    Propaganda

    But SF went for the easy and – as it turns out – very stupid propaganda line. The British, they maintained, were running loyalist gangs so that loyalists would kill Catholics for them.

    Now that’s what I call British propaganda!

    How much did you pay her Marty?

  • Maura

    Gail Walker
    Johnty Brown

    Ingram, how many names do you intend to throw into this cesspit of yours? You have spent the last week, NOT talking about your phony documents and ridiculous assertions re: Mc Guinness, but searching for some source, ANY source, that will lend you some credibilty.
    Like in your ‘career’ you have failed!

  • Maura

    Ingram says: ‘I will sleep well tonight, I bet Lucky is tossing and turning. ‘

    Hmmmm I’ll bet he is giving you as much berth as the rest of us.
    And you expect to be taken seriously as a political player.
    I hate to say it but , LOLOLOLOLOLOL

  • boss

    A question for the artist known as’ Ingram’

    Are you on the brew ??

    Has Pete Waterman been on to you about starting a pop career ??

    Are you going to do your GCSE in English next term ??

  • friendlyCreggan

    “A nice piece to go to bed reading”- Ingram

    What? And there was me thinking that you lived the ‘high life’? 🙂

    No ‘Easons’ around your neck of the woods?

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    Danny

    ‘Ingram is making a point about Brian, that is known and accepted in Republican circles and you know it so stop playing games. It weakens any argument you may have.’

    I don’t recognise that it is ‘known and accepted’ in republican circles. You seem to be following the MI theory of just because it is repeated often enough it takes on a grain of truth.

    MI,

    come on now, quoting extensively from a chat romm as if that contains a modicum of truth. BTW trailing Gail Walker in as some sort of character witness signals bottom of the barrel time. Who next, Lindy Mc Dowell?

  • fionn

    jacky/martin/mi6/whoeveryouare

    you have been trying to use eamonn mccann contribution to RFA to back up your claims, i had a feeling you would as soon as i heard the interview. you were delighted when mccann confirmed a detail about franko touting in the stickies.

    but you seem to ignore the rest of what mccann said. he does not believe your claims about mmcg, and he said having know the man for a long time, he would need a mountain of evidence to believe you.

    you don’t even seem to have a molehill …

  • Betty Boo

    Now there’s an idee: Jack and the molehill