Hardtalk: Kevin Fulton

Stephen Sackur talks to Kevin Fulton about his time as a British spy within the IRA. Hard passage over a bomb technology he brought back from the US for the IRA, but also believes that the British had enough information to prevent the Omagh bomb, but they allowed it to go ahead.

  • ingram

    Micks,

    Thanks for highlighting this worthy case.

    Marty

  • heck

    my previous post on this topic appears to have been lost in electron heaven.

    Marty,

    weren’t your previous superiors in the FRU trying to have “Fulton” killed when he had out lived his usefullness?

    If the value him this little why do they owe him something now?

  • Mickaline

    Interesting how he said that, the level of British infiltration goes “very high up” within Sinn Fein.

    Isn’t this what Martin Ingram has been telling us for some time now?

  • lib2016

    “..the level of British infiltration goes ‘very high up’ within Sinn Fein”

    It won’t happen for a few years yet but it will be interesting when we find out what the level of infiltration in the other parties is, North and South. Interesting rumours starting to emerge about the Gardai, for example.

  • ingram

    Mickaline,

    This topic is not about me.Have you anything to say about Fulton and his case or what he reveals in his 30 minute interview!.

    Quote”Isn’t this what Martin Ingram has been telling us for some time now?

    AND true to my word very shortly your wish will be my command.

    Heck,

    For a number of reasons this issue is in front of the courts, the state should have sorted Kevin out years ago. Why? they have not is anybody`s guess but it is certainly down to personalities within certain Agencies.

    Marty.

    PS. Let us all remember the Ball and the man rules! He He

  • Snuff Box

    Lib2016

    “How far does this penetration of the IRA go?
    “The whole way to the top”

    Perhaps worth making the distnction between Sf and IRA in this context.
    Also how would someone like Fulton know who exactly informers were, especially at the top. Surely to preserve their status only the handlers themselves know the identity. If such an oprerative was turned by suspicious IRA members then the identity of other informers would be revealed.

  • ingram

    Snuff Box,,

    Quote”Perhaps worth making the distnction between Sf and IRA in this context

    WHY?

  • susan

    Fulton claims in the interview that his British handlers have not delivered the promised “package” for his relocation and new identity. I couldn’t conceive of why that would be so, until this quote from Fulton, near the end of the interview — “Everyone has something to gain with my death, including the British authorities.”

  • heck

    Marty

    i am not playing the man. It has been reported in a reputable american periodical (see link) that kevin fulton murdered a number of people. Is this article correct and if so why should we have any sympathy for him?

    http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/prem/200604/ira-spy

  • Snuff Box

    Fulton replied that the penetration of the IRA went to the very top ie the army council. Adams and Magennis arent currently members.

  • ingram

    Heck,

    Quote”Is this article correct

    Yes, but what is the difference between his status and Freddies? none both have taken life.

    Snuff Box.

    Quote” Adams and Magennis arent currently members.

    Are you having a Laaaaarrrrf with me?

  • Busty Brenda

    I just finished listening to this interview and last nite I listened to martin mcguinness. KF was asked about killing, ‘if you were in the IRA then you had to do what the man next to you did or you would not survive’. McGuinness last nite admitted to being in the IRA and no one asked that to him, and he claimed that his faith and the IRA didn’t bring him any trouble with his conscience. No body grilled McGuinness the way this guy was grilled yet they were both in the same organisation. Now why is that?

    It’s no way to live. He’s right about one thing we Irish are the best people in the world but we are very unforgiving. At least he had the sense not to take the ra at their word, the way haggerty and DD did, he had the good sense to skite.

    However, there is such a thing as accountability. Not just for the British gov, IRA UDA etc, but personal accountability for grissly crimes commited. No one is above the law.

  • ingram

    Busty Brenda.

    Quote”No one is above the law.

    Very true.I have told him that, BUT he says he was given a licence to kill, I say he was not.

    Who is right?

    Marty

  • Busty Brenda

    Martin Ingram,

    Only James Bond has a licence to kill.

  • heck

    What was your comment BB “big boys games, big boys rules”?

    Again, if what I have read is correct, Fulton is understating his role in murders. How many were there martin? I read in the 10s.

    This guy was working for the senior levels of the British establishment and he was out killing people at their request, including one man in front of his family, were Fulton was the trigger man. And when they were done with him his handlers tried to have him whacked.

    This same establishment lectures us about “the rule of law” and condemns “violence”.

    Martin–you asked what is the difference between Fulton and Scap (your 10.09 post.) Scap got money out of it and he knows what he was (an murderous b******). Fulton has been brain washed by his bosses into believing he was doing it for “the greater good”. (more like the great and good!)

    I have more sympathy for DD than Fulton.

  • TAFKABO

    Fulton came across as someone who was slightly less than rational, as well as being a bit of a drama queen.No doubt his situation is bound to take its toll on his mental health, but I would take everything he said with a pinch of salt.

  • Busty Brenda

    heck, ‘big boys rules big boys games’.

    Can you show me where I said that anyone was above the law?

  • Busty Brenda

    ps heck says, ‘I have more sympathy for DD than for Fulton?’

    Can I ask you why? KF joined the British army, he stayed in the british army, even when he joined theIRA he claims he remained loyal to the british army.

    DD on the other hand Joined the republican movement and turned, he joined the RM as a soldier and then went to work for the other side.

    Heck, does your sympathy also extend to the victims of DD, ie those operations and people he betrayed.

    Surely all victims like the one you mentioned who was shot in front of his family, deserve sympathy. Victims are victims.

    As for Big boys rules big boys games, that does not mean that big boys are above the law no matter which side they work for.

  • heck

    BB
    I have a little sympathy for both but DD was blackmailed into being a traitor. Fulton did it because he wanted to. I agree that his handlers, who were willing to kill him when they were done with him, treated KF as a pawn. As I said to you on another thread both of them are somebody’s brothers and somebody’s husbands and we should all be glad the war is over and have a little sympathy for the families.

    The people that really tick me off are not the foot soldiers like DD or KF or even Ingram. It is the people in Whitehall who run the show and then lecture us about violence and the rule of law that make me angry.

    Take Thatcher as an example. She was being briefed on Scap and I suspect would have known that he was killing other British agents. (This is an assumption on my part but given her attention to detail it seems reasonable.) Yet the same b**** let ten men die while she lectured the stupid micks about “a crime, is a crime, is a crime.” (Pity she didn’t say this to her son.)

    TAFKABO

    I also get the impression that KF is a few chips short of a fish supper, but that could be what they want us to think. In the mid 80s another spook, Fred Holroyd, came out of the woodwork and I believe the government’s response was to have him committed for a while. This was to discredit what he had to say.

    ALL

    Lets face it, if you really believe all that stuff about the rule of law and violence then how and why would you want to stay part of the UK when it is run by a bunch of criminals and murderers. (I know Marty –it is because a bunch of retired colonel blimps will act up with the guns you guys smuggled in from South Africia!!)

  • Busty Brenda

    heck, ‘I have little sympathy for both but DD was blackmailed into being a traitor. Fulton did it because he wanted to.’

    heck, Fulton wasn’t a traitor, that is my point to you. He joined the british army, gave them his loyalty from the get go, and his loyalty he says stayed there even while he was in the IRA. Not so with DD. He ‘turned’. Fulton joined the IRA as an agent, whereas DD joined as a volunteer. That’s the distinction between the two. One was turned and one was not.

    It’s difficult as Sackhur says for a catholic nationalist from Newry to have done that, while it is true that lots of Irish Catholics join the BA, Fulton went to work for British Intelligence. Thats the point Sackhur was trying to make.

    heck, why would you want to stay part of the UK when it’s run by a bunch of criminals and murderers’
    Is there one western power that isn’t or wasn’t?

  • ingram

    Heck,

    Fulton caused victims of that there is no doubt BUT he is also a victim too.

    I watched the program late last night for the first time.It clearly was edited and at times it was unfair. Sakurr clearly did not know his subject, he would have been lost without his prompts.

    Marty.

  • andy

    I was thinking of fulton this morning. I haven’t had a chance to listen to this programme, but hasn’t he previously said he left NI after he thought he was about to be interrogated and killed by scap et al.

    Didn’t he then return to northern ireland to work for the real ira and as a customs informer?

    How does he square that?

  • mickhall

    Busty is absolutely right and when ‘ingram’ asked what is the difference between ‘fulton’ and scap he is being disingenuous. For as Busty Brenda says ‘fulton’ never betrayed anyone, [as far as we know] for he was not a tout but an intelligence service operative [or whatever these people are called] he never went over to the British as he had always been there man.

    Not versed in these matters it is a mystery to me why the British State have not sorted him out, as he served them well; and the more he hangs around the more shit hits the fan. I would be interested to know what sort of package ‘kf’ was offered, could it be he was to greedy, or is he just stuck in a time warp, finding it impossible to move on.

    As to the interview, it was a wasted opportunity as far as learning anything new, its whole purpose seemed to me to be to discredit ‘fulton,’ i e the man is unstable, a renegade and a killer to boot. In this and on reading some of the posts here, it seems to have met with some success.

    The unstable hints are standard SIS tactics, used against former friends like Colin Wallace and targets like Princess Di. Unless taking on the British security establishment is a certifiable offense then ‘fulton’ is far from unstable, although he is a dangerous loose cannon and if he really believes appearing on the television these days gives one immunity from a hit man/woman a little nieve.

    Regards.

  • Busty Brenda

    mick,

    agreed.

  • susan

    Andy, in The Atlantic Monthly monthly by Matthew Teague, Fulton claims his handlers abandoned him directly after he was interrogated, blindfolded by Scappaticci. from the article —

    “His special toll-free number suddeny stopped working and eventually became the hotline for a forklift company. Fulton suspects that once the IRA loosed Scappaticci on him, his handlers decided he would make a good sacrifice: another mark of creidbiity for their prize agent, Stakeknife. His handlers betrayed him.”

    There’s no reference to Fulton working in the RIRA and/or as a customs informer — perhaps you are thinking of Eamon Collins, who was a customs officer and a member of PIRA?

    The Atlantic reporter had several long interviews with Fulton, and perhaps consequently Fulton was much more open about both his guilt and his personal responsibility than he was in his televised interview with Sackur. Again, from the article:

    “Over the course of our time together, he developed a winking non-denial answer: “No comment.”

    I asked if he had killed Eoin Morley.

    “No comment.”

    I asked if it was true that he had personally killed eleven people, not mentioning the uncounted bomb victimes.

    “No comment.”

    Etc., etc. In the Hardtalk interview, Fulton denies his own personal responsibility almost robotically, but not so in The Atlantic article:

    “At one poiint I asked Fulton whether, in light of the human toll he would exact in the course of his career, someone could have served the greater good by killing him as a young man. I meant the question to be rhetorical. But Fulton just nodded.”

    “Yes,” he said.

    Personally, when I first read the article I was beyond incredulous. At the rate these informer and spy revelations are flowing, it does seem soon there will be carousels at the airport selling “I got capped by Scapp” tee shirts to tourists. But what grabbed my attention was the on-line interview at The Atlantic’s site with Teague, entitled “From Belfast With Love.” (still on the front page side column of the site, for those interested) That is the “on-line” interview Sean O’Driscoll quotes from in the Irish Voice article Mick blogged. The obscure information about his New York visit was confirmed with INS records and an FBI source.

    As O’Driscoll wrote in the Irish Voice article, the best hope of objectively evaluating Fulton’s claims lie in the investigations of the acquiring of the coded infrared flash detonation technology and the findings of The Smithwork Tribunal into the murders of Chief Superintendent Harry Breen and Superintendent Robert Buchanan.

  • susan

    The link to the on-line interview with Matthew Teague, the reporter who wrote the cover story on Fulton and Scappaticci for The Atlantic Montly:

    http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200603u/stakeknife

  • ingram

    Mick H,

    Quote”when ‘ingram’ asked what is the difference between ‘fulton’ and scap he is being disingenuous.

    How is this being disingenuous? both are killers both were directed and paid by the State and both were exposed! One has got a massive payout and protection and one has not ?

    Let us prosecute BOTH or pay off both and protect them, you should not pick and choose who you defend. Interestingly the Judge in the first Fulton Hearing made that point clearly to the State. The State will lose this case but it is whether Fulton makes it that far. It is now two years into this court case and costing the state a small fortune every month but money is not the problem it is the embarrassment factor they hate.

    Please explain the difference regarding both Agents in the context I have outlined above. All for one , one for all.

    Best Regards

    Martin.

    PS. Once Fulton left the Army he was a civillian just like any other Agent e.g Carlin or Nelson.

  • andy

    Susan
    Thanks for that
    However my understanding was that Fulton has at other times claimed he inflitrated RIRA – or at least he claimed that he passed on info regarding Omagh, which was perpetrated by RIRA.
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/1822540.stm
    (sorry am a bit neanderthal with links- i don’t know how to make them look pretty)

    Also there is this and a couple of other links
    on the web linking Fulton to customs
    http://cryptome.quintessenz.at/mirror/fulton-bd.htm

    (apologies again)

    Of course I appreciate that RIRA and the provos are separate organisations, but i thought they would “collude” against perceived informers (eg Gareth o’connor)

    I’ll listen to the interview sometime tonight and see if it answers/raises any questions….

  • Busty Brenda

    Susan, ‘there is no reference to Fulton working in RIRA and or as a customs informer perhaps you are thinking of Eamonn Collins.’

    Susan below is a synopsis of Fultons previous book on amazon.co.uk called a soldiers file. Clearly he did return to the province and did work undercover for customs and the RUC serious crime squad.
    ————————————————
    Reviews

    Synopsis
    “The Fulton File” reveals one man’s experience of the murky, dangerous world of intelligence services in Northern Ireland. Under sentence of death from the IRA and living in fear of the security services, Kevin Fulton tells the story that the British authorities don’t want the public to hear. In an attempt to break free of the shackles of sectarianism he experienced in his youth, Fulton joined the British Army’s first battalion, the Royal Irish Rangers, in 1969. However, within weeks of enlisting, he was approached by MI5 to work as undercover agent for the highly secretive Force Research Unit (FRU). “Discharged” from the British Army in 1971, Fulton was sent back to Northern Ireland to infiltrate the IRA in Newry and the staunchly republican bandit country of south Armagh. For almost two decades, Fulton operated at the cutting edge of the security services’ dirty war, supplying MI5 with detailed intelligence on IRA operations in Ireland, Germany and America. As an FRU Agent, Fulton worked alongside some of the IRA’s top gunmen and bomb-makers and took part in numerous IRA operations against the British Army. Then, deemed to have outlived his usefulness to the British state, Fulton was forced to flee Northern Ireland after former colleagues inside MI5 set him up for assassination. He later returned to the province to work undercover for Customs and Excise and the RUC’s Serious Crime Squad. Fulton became a household name in 2001, following claims that he had passed on information that dissident Republicans were planning a bomb attack in Northern Ireland, 48 hours before a Real IRA bomb exploded in Omagh, killing 28 people. Kevin Fulton has said that he always wanted to be a soldier. “The Fulton File” is his story of how far he surpassed that ambition and the profound effect it has had on his life.

  • susan

    Busty B, thank you for that. In The Atlantic Monthly article, Fulton maintains that he was interrogated by Scappaticci in 1994, years before Omagh, and subsequently abandoned by his handlers.

    After two interrogations with Scap, he was ordered to return — alone — for a third. From the Atlantic, “Later that day a British handler, but not his own, contacted Fulton secretly to offer a private warning. “Don’t go to the last meeting, he said. ‘You won’t go home.” Fulton blew out of Belfast and went into hiding.

    I am incredulous — but open to explanation — as to how or why Fulton could return to undercover work in the North after that. Are we dealing with “Zelig” here?

  • Busty Brenda

    Well this could be the reason the MOD has turned down his application of a package. If he felt able to return to the lions den then where is the threat?

    Fulton, wanted to be a soldier. He claims this in both books, and on tv. He joined the RIR 1st bataqllion, (thats a home regiment, which meant he would only serve in NI and not for example Germany) so he had a taste for service in Ulster. Hence his return in the face of the threat.

    However, he did work for RUC serious crime squad, and after Omagh a lot of people had to get out, for example Paddy Dixon arrested only last week, so I don’t know if he has since been relaeased. Perhaps this is the reason Fulton wants a package, in which case he is in a much weaker position than he would have been previously when he left the province following his interviews with the IRA for questioning over the cars and phones he supplied, and which took place in Unity Flats.

    This has to be a weakness in his case. In my POV Susan,

    regards.

  • heck

    The point still remains –here was a young naive Irish catholic who joined the army to see the world and was recruited by a bunch of evil people to infiltrate the IRA. They had him kill people to verify his bonifids and, when they were done with him they wanted to have him killed, to improve the image of another spy. The people who run KF are pure evil.

    And you guys think there is a moral difference between these guys and the UDA or IRA?

    Were are the police, police ombudsman, prosecution service, judiciary and parliament in all this? Until THEY show they accept the “rule of law”, why should I?

    BB “why would you want to stay part of the UK when it’s run by a bunch of criminals and murderers’ Is there one western power that isn’t or wasn’t?”

    How about Switzerland, Finland, and –dare I say it—the Irish Republic? Ireland has never been at war with anyone since it got independence. It is countries that want to be world powers and tell others what to do that engage in this sort of this, Britain, France, the US and Soviet Union etc. Britain has 100s of years of colonial history to perfect these techniques. However I do think Britain is unique in the level of denial of its crimes. America for example is still debating its role in Vietnam and has gone a long way to face up to its racist past.

    Britain, like a bunch of holocaust deniers, refuses to face up to what it did in its colonies—like Kenya, and is incapable of facing up to what it did in Ireland. How many have heard the “ We don’t do that, we’re British” line of crap?

  • ingram

    Busty.

    On his original exposure ( Scap) and subsequent move he was denied a package at that point. His work subsequently for Customs and serious crimes ie Fraud etc was also dangerous and risky.

    His case rests on the promises made to re locate and the offer of a package back in the early eighties at the point of him leaving HM Forces. That offer is a contract and sections of that Forces have admitted this point.

    The problem remains with some individuals( Prominent) who do not want him to receive the pay off.

    Martin

  • mickhall

    ‘martin’

    There seems to be some ambivalence here over ‘fultons’ status when he first returned to Ireland after joining the British army, perhaps you could help clear it up. We have been led to believe not least by the man himself that ‘fulton’ was a serving British army soldier who was sent back to NI to infiltrate the PRM, [hence his demand for a retirement package]

    Thus throughout his period undercover he was officially in the Queens employ. But you seem to be raising some doubts about this tale. Are we now being led to believe after spending a short time in the British army, he either brought himself out or was discharged and after a nod and a wink form god knows who returned home to unofficially ingratiate himself with the PIRA. If so it is something different all together than being sent across as an army sponsored agent.

    When was he OFFICIALLY discharged from the British army, if it was in 1971 was he then paid by MI5 on a retainer as a temporary member of staff/whatever. Was his salary banked for him by MI5 throughout his period working undercover. Or was he like normal touts simply paid on results with the odd top up here and there. If so when was he paid the first back hander, two or three years, if not more after leaving the British Army?

    What you seem to be saying now is ‘fulton’ was just another tout who just happened to have been in the British Army for a few months, or am I mistaken because if so it somewhat undermines his case for a retirement package, as one would have thought the first rule of touting is your paid by results, no info no pay.

    Finally to compare scap with ‘fulton’ is not being realistic, for if we can believe the media, one had info which was for the British state pure gold, whilst the other was run of the mill stuff which could be provided by a good few British assets.

  • Busty Brenda

    Heck, if you want to go and see the world then there were other batallions ie royal enniskillen dragoon guards ‘skins’,not a home batallion.

    Martin, when he was first denied the package in the early eighties, then he had a case but he returned. Not too many (if any) are offered a package upon leaving the Forces, (considering this was Fultons second time leavine ie, the fake discharge papers).

    You know and I know as do many others upon leaving HM Forces, up in front of a CO, plus discharge papers and asta la vista baby. No package and out to civy street.

    The package (from intel) which should have been offered along with his GSM ought to have come then, but two things happened. The threat receeded (evidence based on his subsequent return to the province and to his home area where he also served in the IRA). Theres no question he weakened his own case is there? Also, that package to relocate etc, thats a package offered to touts informers etc, like Scap, not really someone who served in HM forces.

    As an employer perhaps the army had an obligation to him, (ie verbal contract)but that is not the case for anyone is it?

    He should have received what was promised but that would depend upon wording, but his subsequent return nullified the employers/ armies obligation to him?

    Unless all operational field officers are guaranteed a package irrespective of danger or not? If that is the case then it changes it.

  • Busty Brenda

    ps there is also an issue here with credibility. Sachkur claims intelligence sources say Fulton is not very high up the IRA food chain, small fry is the term used. Now Fulton gives this claim verification when he returned after Scap, hence the credibility of what he says. Was there a threat (hawk) or wasn’t there and if there was how bad a threat was it if he felt able to return to where he had previously served and go again under cover.

    No one has disproved what he says, but what we have from Kevin is a ‘wait and see’.

    What is he waiting for a 22 bus? The book launch? What. and why would he have held back ?

    The return not only weakened his case for a package he shot himself in the foot by giving credence to the claim that he was small fry.

    So that is where he stands until he brings out the ‘wait and see’.

  • ingram

    Mick

    Quote”There seems to be some ambivalence here over ‘fultons’ status when he first returned to Ireland after joining the British army, perhaps you could help clear it up. We have been led to believe not least by the man himself that ‘fulton’ was a serving British army soldier who was sent back to NI to infiltrate the PRM, Quote”[hence his demand for a retirement package

    “Kevin was head hunted and asked to leave the Army for an alternative career in the RM, Just like Willie Carlin , Brian Nelson and OTHERS . He was NOT A IRA man and then an Agent he was a British soldier asked to join the IRA, It makes NO difference whether he was a soldier for one week or ten years .His greatest asset was his roots , good looks and natural charm.

    Quote”as one would have thought the first rule of touting is your paid by results, no info no pay.

    Not true mate some can be dormant for years on a “retainer” before being rekindled. Many Agents are on a set wage whether they deliver or not! the reason for that is so they do not manufacture information.

    Quote”Finally to compare scap with ‘fulton’ is not being realistic, for if we can believe the media, one had info which was for the British state pure gold, whilst the other was run of the mill stuff which could be provided by a good few British assets

    As you know Mick you are missing my point here. One should not treat an Agent whether they be Scap or a low level eyes and ears electricity meter reader any different?

    A life in danger, is a life in danger.

    Martin

  • ingram

    Busty Brenda.

    Sorry missed your post.

    Kevins claim is no different than any Agent. Once compromised then he is re settled end of story . Raymond Gilmour has had two packages, Marty McGartland has received two, Willie Carlin has enjoyed two possibly three packages.

    Martin

  • Busty Brenda

    no martin, depends upon the contract. Kevin was a serviceman, the others were not.

  • Busty Brenda

    ps also none of the others came back and worked here again. Which makes things different.

  • ingram

    Busty,

    Quote”depends upon the contract

    Now I know you are winding me up.He He

    Martin

  • Busty Brenda

    No wind up martin

    either he was an agent

    or an agent handler

    or he was a service man who worked undercover in the IRA

    If he was an undercover british soldier then it depends upon the contract he had with the BA/intel/MOD.

    The other two (agents/agent handlers) are entitled to standard tout packages. None of them came back to work again because of a real or percieved threat. Kevin did. That MUST have weakened his case with his former/employers.

    No wind up. There’s a weakness in this somewhere if it has raged on for two years. Either it’s this or it is something else.

  • Busty Brenda

    ps when franko haggerty came back he got whacked when kevin came back he went to work.

    Explain?

  • ingram

    Busty.

    Not sure what you point is here.

    I have already said Kevin was a soldier , asked to LEAVE THE ARMY to work towards joining the RM. Surely that is clear.

    Kevin was told by his Handlers, comrades of mine who today admit they told him he would be re settled if compromised. That is his contract a verbal undertaking to be looked after if compromised.

    Quote”The other two (agents/agent handlers) are entitled to standard tout packages.EXACTLY

    Kevin is EXACTLY like Carlin and Nelson, they like Fulton were approached as SERVING SOLDIERS TO WORK AGAINST TERRORISM FROM WITHIN.

    Quote” ps when franko haggerty came back he got whacked when kevin came back he went to work.

    When Franko came back he was home sick and offered protection from McGuinness and the IRA. Fulton did not re join the IRA but the Real IRA who did not believe the rumours about FULTON. The confession of Peter Burns helped Kevin because they worked together within the IRA and his departure offered Kevin some cover.

    Hope this helps you to understand the context.

    Marty.

    PS. As for the contract? this is not double glazing Luv or do you have access to a fair employment tribunal.

  • Busty Brenda

    NOW I understand. That wasn’t at all clear when we were weaving our way thru this thread.

    The Peter Burns connection was not clear and totally unknown to me.

    Still in his shoes I’d have taken the first offer.
    Regards the contract and the double glazing. He was given a verbal contract, and that was my point. Thats the first its been made clear on what this case was founded. I do not believe that was in the public arena.
    Thanks

  • ingram

    Busty,

    No Problem.

    It is complicated.

    Martin

  • heck

    I think you guys are deliberately missing the big issue here. You have anarm of the government going around murdering its citizens in an extra judicial formal—and noone seems to care –or they want to talk about it like it is some James Bond novel. Even Mick Hall descended to this level of farce. You all seem to take the view that this is OK and then lecture the micks about the “rule of law” because some south Armagh resident buys his cigarettes and whiskey in Dundalk.

    THESE GUYS KILL PEOPLE!!!

    An no BB all governments do not do this—(at least I hope not!!) In an analogy, which is not exact but you unionists will like, consider the case of Joe Pistone who infiltrated the mob for the FBI. (played by Johnny Depp in the movie Donnie Brasco) The mafia “makes” members who have killed someone for the “family” (make their bones” is, I believe, the expression.) The FBI pulled Pistone from his undercover role when he got to this stage. They, again as far as I know, do not have undercover agents who are doing hits to rise in the ranks of the mob.

    BB, from what I have been told-and believe, the IRA do not force any of their members to kill people, and will used them in other rolls if they are unwilling to take this step. KF is being disingenuous when he says he had no alternative. He was killing people to move up in the IRA ranks, at the behest of and to be more valuable to his employers. In the end the state was willing to have him killed by another agent because it was to their advantage. (an possibly because he was just another paddy!)

    Using my analogy, could you imagine the outcry in the US if the FBI had one agent murder another to protect intelligence on the mob.

    All the talk from the media, politicians and bloggers on this site about the “rule of law” is pure hypocritical BS. If the PSNI, ombudsman, and prosecution service really believed what they say they would go after these guys –and I don’t mean foot soldiers like Barrett, Fulton and Ingram- I mean the puppet masters in Whitehall and Westminster.

  • heck

    In the scenario I described of the FBI having one agent try to murder another could you imagine if someone on the number one US political blog asked the question

    “well what was in his contract?”

    you would think they had lost their f****** mind.

    ps can you tell i am getting mad?–I will quit for the rest of the day.

  • Busty Brenda

    heck,lol the reason I asked about the ‘package’ is because Sackhur made an issue of it and it has been in the public domain.

    the FBI.

    http://www.tribtalk.com/showthread.php?t=2481

    This link will show you a thread on a USA board about the Boston collobaration of the FBI and mob. the body count rose to over 21 men women and children. This year in New York an FBI agent deVecchio was indicited for murder the body count in this coloraboration is expected to exceed the Boston body count. Not forgetting the recent case of the NY policemen who killed for the mob in the news only recently.

    about your post. You say farce and james bond novel, but talk about the movie donnie brasco, and you say the IRA do not force their members to kill people and then go on to say in order to move up their ranks Fulton killed people. Now thats a contradiction.

    The ‘contract’ in this case was a verbal contract between KF and his handlers is the basis of his case and has been in the media now for some time. He wants what the rest got. It was in the programme which this thread is about. He feels entitled to it, and it is an issue.

    The FBI the CIA Homeland security etc are not angels. But that is not the issue. Fulton colluded with the IRA. Thats republican collusion, and republicans can only point the finger when it comes to collusion they do not take responsibility themselves.

    They are just as hypocritical as whitehall. The Breen and Buchanann inquiries is collusion of the Garda with the IRA, but you think ROI are pure. Grow up heck.

  • irish in America

    The policemen who were arrested, were working for the mob on the side for extra money.

  • Busty Brenda

    irish in america,

    heck doesn’t watch sky.

  • andy

    infiltration is not collusion. Look at who actually pulls the strings.

    Martin
    Hi – who is Peter Burns in this context? I haven’t been able to find any info on him on the web. Unless of course he is the ex-singer of Dead or Alive. Which would be appropriate.

    ta

  • Busty Brenda

    ‘infiltration is not collusion. Looks at who actually pulls the strings’.

    To whom are you directing your comment and in what context.

  • Busty Brenda

    Andy,

    I do hope that you are not suggesting the Scapatticci merely infiltrated the IRA as opposed to being involved in collusion. LOL

  • susan

    Andy, thanks for your earlier links on Fulton. I’ve finally gotten a chance to check them out, and am now officially More Confused Than Ever.

    Heck, I agree with you that for real change, there needs to be more evidence and understanding of institutional responsibility, less focus on a few individuals. And if you’d argued that some of the actions military intelligence took were as ruthluss and wrong as some of the actions paramilitaries took, I’d be the first to agree with you. But you seem to be arguing that the IRA is morally superior because they only used people who wanted to kill people to, erm, kill people?

  • mickhall

    heck

    You are spot on, the PIRA insurgency between 1969-97 and the UK States response to it, corrupted the body politics of the UK to such an extent that few in power in London believe the issues you have raised about collusion etc are either legally or morally wrong. They have sunk to needs must. I have absolutely no doubt without this attitude having become prevalent within the British Armed forces, Civil Service and Security Services Mr Blair could never have got away with taking the UK into an illegal and hopeless war in Iraq.

    All the best

  • Busty Brenda

    Mick, I have a little problem with your post. Firstly it assumes that if there’d been no war in NI then Britain would never have been involved in Iraq. I do not believe that is so.Britains PM is too caught up in doing the bidding of George Bush. Iraq would have taken place because it was on the Bush agenda and Britain would have joined no matter if there’d been an insurgency in its own back yard or not. That is MHO.

    Secondly heck brought up the subject and said only in Britain could one arm of the state collude with others to murder its own citizens. Heck pointed out the US as an example, now it has been shown that in the US also there has been collusion altho they call it colloraboration. But it is the same thing.

    Heck also seems to think that the question of money is irrelevant. Not so. For example the gov paid freddi scappaticci £80,000 a year. KF now wants his ‘package’ and one would assume he would want it back dated. Whilst this money goes to those who killed britains own citizens the rate of pay in the british army for men and women to defend our citizens is hardly enough for some families to be raised on.

    example

    http://www.armedforces.co.uk/mod/listings/l0018.html
    That is for a Corporal for example the rate of pay is from £22-£25k p.a. depending upon his level.This is the tragedy of the whole thing. the MOD/gov. can find money to pay informers etc this kind of money and cannot afford the upkeep of its regular army,with equipement that is out of date. When the government want to cut back they almost always look at defence. It is obscene that money from the public purse can be found to give to murderers like scappaticci while honest men defending the country are just about paid along with the rate of inflation.

    KF’s own regiment Royal Irish have now almost gone. The package they received widely criticised especially in NI. Now I don’t want Martin Ingram jumping in here and saying he was entitled to his package, yes he was if that was the agreement. My problem lies with a gov/MOD who can find money to pay killers of its own citizens but very little to fund the defenders of those same citizens.

  • andy

    BB
    hi
    sorry about delay. I wasn’t really directing the comment at anybody but I would suggest that Scap was involved in infiltration not collusion.

    We had a thread about this a couple of weeks ago. I guess it revolves around definitions but to put it simply I would suggest infiltration is where someone is working within a particular organisation (org A) on behalf of another organisation (org B) with a hidden agenda against the expressed aims of the first organisation (org A)
    so Scap was supposedly working for the IRA (org A in this case) but was actually working for the FRU (org B) to undermine the security etc of org A.

    Collaboration I would say is when someone within org A was receiving help from org B but was still acting in accordance with the aims of org A. An example of this would be, hypothetically, someone from the UDA receiving information from an FRU operation which helped target a republican.

    Clearly people end up dead in both cases but I would suggest they are different…
    (although there are probably occasions when the two have overlapped for some individuals).

    Hope this is clear and non-rambling

  • andy
  • heck

    BB ,
    Propably the last post on this thread.

    What I am talking about is institutionalized murder by the state. You talked about the New York cops who worked as hit men for the mob. This was like the individual police men who Michael Stone claims drove him to kill people at Milltown cemetery. You know –the few bad apples. In New York these cops went to jail for life. In Belfast — well that is another thread!

    This is not about a few bad apples this is about a rotten barrel. The killings by KF and Scap were organized by puppet masters in London. Cabinet members are aware and approve of this. Are you suggestion that the US president or attorney general knew and covered up the fact that New York cops worked as hit men for the mafia? That is clearly nonsense.

    Mickhall—glad to see that you agree. However I disagree that NI had anything to do with the war in NI. The British approach in NI results from a history of colonialism and the perfection of techniques to keep the natives down. This could only be done through violence and this approach is institutionalized within the British state. Part of this attitude is contributed to the war in Iraq—the belief-taught in British history classes and in the British Public schools –that going off and invading and occupying other peoples countries is a good thing. That the British can do what they like, and if the natives fight back, well they are just terrorists.

  • Busty Brenda

    Andy,

    I understand where you are coming from. But I believe your diagram is wrong.

    Try this.

    Organisation A (british government

    colluded with organisations

    B C D etc to murder their own citizens. ( B/C/D are IRA/UDA/RIRA etc.

    In other words the IRA/UDA etc murdered by PROXY. To me that is collusion. When it was described in the hardtalk programme to KF, he would rather call it ‘cover up’, but what he was describing as Sackhur stated rightly was ‘collusion.

    regards.

  • Busty Brenda

    heck,

    ok last post.

    Yes, there were puppet masters in whitehall, but to suggest there are no puppet masters in the whitehouse is utter nonsense.

    As Susan has already stated you are protraying the IRA as some sort of morally superior than the killers in whitehall, which is quite evidently bias.

  • The HardTalk interview is now preserved on google video (hopefully).

    There is a direct download link to the FLV encoded file at the blog below

    http://traskwebjournal.blogspot.com