Not real people. Just Orange B*******

Lindy McDowell: “Welcome aboard, Chas. How does it feel to be a Hun?” Despite some heavy personal media targeting of some of the more colourful members of the march, she points out this was

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  • BogExile

    The degree of raw hatred was horrifying but not especially surprising. Nobody has a monopoly on hatred on this island. If we could mine it and sell it, we’d all be rich.

    I suppose the difference is that ‘we’ as Unionists are being hated by people who support political parties which espouse unity. There is a paper thin veneer of respectability on the extremes of our political spectrum and on satuarday the spides burst through it on the Republican side. It might be a social problem. It might be an alienation problem. It might be an integration problem. But it’s definitely a republican problem as it explodes Gerry’s myth of a pluralist Ireland.

    Was the march intended to do this? Well if it’s Ok to believe the Garda had no idea of the scale of the violence it must be Ok to beleive that the marchers were unaware of the naked sectrarian they would unleash.

    I would say this though. I would have been much more comfortable with a victims of republican violence march confronting people in the south with the reality of the suffereing of the unionist community. Conflating the march with ‘Love Ulster’ only served to dilute. obscure and make it easy for militant republicans to devalue the strong moral purpose of such a march.

    BogExile (whatever the name at the bottom says!)

  • piebald

    I read Linda’s articles regularly and most contain large doses of common sense.

    Not meaning to take away from the main gist of her article about the labelling and name calling which took place but she goes into BS overdrive when stating that dozens of petrol bombs were hurled at Gardai and “hardware” was unleased.

    This is further proof of what David Adams refers to as outlandish media coverage bordering on hysteria.

    To the best of my knowledge there was one petrol bomb thrown and from my point of observation it was something attached to a firework.

    Yes there was some vicious sectarian abuse being hurled about by individuals which can’t be denied nor defended.

    What constitutes an Orange parade/march and does it need to be officially sanctioned by the Orange Order ?

    I would contend not.

    Does the presence of 6 Loyalist Bands, A Lambeg Drum, An Orange Stadard Flag and the parade participants/marchers wearing Orange Lilies not go a long way to making this an Orange march ?

    Come on Linda – who are you trying to kid ?

    piebald

  • fair_deal

    What constitutes an Orange parade/march and does it need to be officially sanctioned by the Orange Order ?

    Err yes it does. A parade is organised by the people or groups who organise it. The OO or a constituent part did not apply for the parade. No Lodge tried to walk on the parade. The Orange Order didn’t organise this parade so it isn’t an OO parade. Why is that so difficult to understand?

  • pakman

    fair_deal

    If it was an OO parade it was ok to riot. That’s the subtext here.

  • piebald

    fair_deal

    I don’t want to start into a philosophical dialogue on the essence of ‘orangeness’ but why is it so difficult to understand that it had all the elements of an Orange parade save the collarettes ?

    Whether it was officially sanctioned by the Orange Order or not is neither here nor there.

    The voices of the victims have been drowned out by the pounding of the big Lambeg.

    piebald

  • piebald

    pakman

    “If it was an OO parade it was ok to riot. That’s the subtext here.”

    No – if it was an OO parade which it was it is not ok to riot.

    It was ok to protest though

    piebald

  • fair_deal

    pakman

    I realise the subtext but the more you dangle the bait the more bites you get thus more evidence of the subtext.

  • piebald

    fair_deal

    the only subtext here is that the Orange Order and Orange supporters need to realise that they offer nothing to progress and reconciliation by their continued provocative coat trailing exercises.

    These bring us no further to the much vaunted “Pluralist Society” being bandied about by commentators this week.

    piebald

  • Bilbo

    Jeez, the orange order have such a massive PR problem.

    Piebald

    Do you realise the vast majority of orange parades are peaceful and dare I even say it, fun! Have you ever been to a parade? Neither I nor any of my family are involved in the orange, its not something thats ingrained in me but I have to say I do enjoy attending band parades every summer. I’m heartily sick and tired of people preaching about how evil orangism is, its anything but, the vast majority of orangemen are elderly christian men who wouldn’t have a bad word to say about anyone.

  • elfinto

    I have plenty of respext for someone like Aileen Quinton. However she is making a mistake getting mixed up with people like Wille Frazer.

    If it was a genuine victims march why the need for marching bands. Why the need to ‘march’ in the first place? Surely a vigil outside the Dail would have been more appropriate.

    The reason Frazer went for the march with bands past the GPO was because he knew it was a provocation and he knew it would lead to trouble. Unfortunately the Minister of Justice and then the skangers decided to indulge him.

    Frazer wanted trouble and he got it. Any victims who associated with him did themselves a disservice.

  • fair_deal

    Piebald

    “These bring us no further to the much vaunted “Pluralist Society” being bandied about by commentators this week.”

    Missfitz gently chided me the other day about not engaing or being educationalist enough in my approach to other contributors. Thus I suggest piebald you educate yourself by going to a dictionary and finding out what pluralism means.

  • BogExile

    What’s with the name labelling machine?? That last comment wasn’t made by me!

    This is moving from entertaining towards frustrating. Mick, what’s going ON?

    The Original unreconstructed BogExile

  • BogExile

    fair-deal,

    If he writes like a munter, spealls like a munter, reasons like a munter……. 🙂

    BogExile

  • BogExile

    Hah – ‘speals’ – hoist by my own petard.

  • piebald

    Bilbo
    Do you realise the vast majority of orange parades are peaceful and dare I even say it, fun! Have you ever been to a parade?

    Yes I realise that the vast majority of orange parades are peaceful.

    Yes I have witnessed parades.

    But they have a massive existential problem and most importantly they have massive relational problems with their non orange neighbours when on parade.

    “vast majority of orangemen are elderly christian men who wouldn’t have a bad word to say about anyone”

    I’m not sure if these people are the vast majority but when the Religious leaders take to the stage there is no fear of a crush at the front to put it mildly

    piebald

  • p ring

    Never realised there were loyalist bands at this thing in Dublin last saturday. These bands are provocative and unpleasant and no matter how you dress it in terms of cultural heritage
    , community festival etc, they are meant to be provocative. The republican ones are just as unpleasant as the loyalist ones and if Willie Frazer was after a reaction from the skanger/gurrier/spide element then he was going the right way about it.
    Incidentally why was this event planned for Parnell Sq, O’Connell St? My knowledge of Dublin says that, indeed, a protest near the Dail, with maybe a march round Stephen’s Green, would have reduced the skanger element considerably.

  • elfinto

    Unionists are renowned throughout the world for their pluralist values.

    Discuss.

  • piebald

    fair_deal

    “Thus I suggest piebald you educate yourself by going to a dictionary and finding out what pluralism means.”

    I know well what Pluralism means and that the most important values of a pluralist society are mutual respect and tolerance.

    This does not mean that all diverse views must be tolerated if those views are extremist, ascendant, sectarian and triumphalist.

    These should not be part of a pluralist society and in no way contribute to the “common good”.

    piebald

  • Bilbo

    “I know well what Pluralism means and that the most important values of a pluralist society are mutual respect and tolerance.”

    pluralism – the exact opposite of the republic of Ireland

    unionists are alright in dublin as long as they keep their head down and their mouth shut – same with the other minority groups. Ireland has a deeply unpleasent undercurrent of hostility to those that are not the traditional catholic, nationalist type.

  • piebald

    Bilbo

    “I do enjoy attending band parades every summer”
    “dare I even say it, fun!”

    Have you attended any parades in either urban or rural areas which march past non-unionist areas ?

    These are much more “fun” and i would recommend you attend one of these if you ever get the chance to.

    piebald

  • fair_deal

    Piebald

    “those views are extremist, ascendant, sectarian and triumphalist.”

    Who decides that? I could define your views as that as you seem to think me walking down a public road with coloured fabric gives someone permission to hit me.
    To believe that the Protestant reformation was a positive is extremist?
    To celebrate the introduction of a bill of rights is triumphalist?
    To mark a key date in the development of democracy is sectarian?
    To commemmorate the event which ensured your community survived is ascendant?

    “These should not be part of a pluralist society and in no way contribute to the “common good”.”

    1. Pluralism built on exclusion what dictionary are you using?
    2. The people who threatened the common good on saturday were the people who rioted not the ones who complied with the law and the instructions of the authorities.
    3. Don’t be wandering about with a nice mobile phone else you might provoke someone to steal it.

  • Well done Lindy,

    Another balanced, well thought out and constructive piece of journalism…

    Thankfully this type of thinly veiled bigoted journalism is a rarity among the many fine scribes that we have here (from both sides of the community).

  • eranu

    “Incidentally why was this event planned for Parnell Sq, O’Connell St?”

    many protest marches in dublin start from here. the last one i remember walking past on the way home from work was a SIPTU (i think) protest a few months ago i think. theres nothing provocative about starting here, its normal practice.

    its sad but not surprising that the more extremist and unreasonable republician posters here blame the people in the march for the riotous mob trying to kill them! anything at all that could be twisted and put onto the protesters has been mentioned in the last few days. i suppose a few hundred unionists and a union jack flag is just too much of a threat in a city of around 1 million cathloics/nationalist/republicians? how could this be tolerated????

    possibley the justifiers of the rioters would also justify a mob in london that attacked a St Patricks Day parade because there was a tri colour?? thankfully that wouldnt happen in london these days.

    what was shown up on saturday was the simple sectarianism of the republic. it rarely raises its head because virtually everyone in the south is catholic and comes from the typical nationalist slightly anti british mould.

    the problem for southerners is that they have no *concept* of it being proper/right/normal to accept an irish tradition of being pro british and a religon that is not catholic. it doesnt yet exist in their minds. ‘mono ethnic, mono cultural’ springs to mind …
    in NI the needle starts at neutral and swings to either nationalism or unionism, or protestant or catholic depending on the context. people understand it is right to be accomodating to other traditions that are not their own. in the south the needle starts at nationalist, catholic, anti british, anti protestant etc. and it doesnt bend very far in any direction. nothing else can be tolerated. thats part of the reason there was so much hatred from the mob. southern soceity still has a way to go before they even *realise* that they should accept other irish traditions on an equal footing to nationalist/catholic.

    you hear about the equality agenda alot from SF. i would suggest they explain what equality actually means and promote it a bit more in the south.

    eranu.

  • elfinto

    SIPTU, Gay Pride, etc are not ‘putting two fingers up at 1916 and the Irish Republic’ – as Brian Walker of the Belfast Telegraph correctly described the FAIR march.

    That’s why Irish republicans do not find their parades offensive or provocative.

  • piebald

    Piebald : “those views are extremist, ascendant, sectarian and triumphalist.”

    fair_deal : “Who decides that?”

    Well don’t just take my word for it. Here is a little list of who decides that. I’m sure there are others which I may have missed during it’s “Glorious” history.

    Late 1790’s

    Governor of Armagh, Lord Gosford, gave his opinion of the new group to a meeting of magistrates: “It is no secret that a persecution is now raging in this country … the only crime is … profession of the Roman Catholic faith. A lawless banditti have constituted themselves judges …”

    1823- 1845

    The Orange Order was banned by the British government because of its involvement in promoting sectarian tension in Ulster. Although they were then illegal, the parades continued.

    1835

    a Parliamentary Committee set up to investigate the activities of the Order heard from a local magistrate, William Hancock, that: “For some time past the peaceable inhabitants of the parish of Drumcree have been insulted and outraged by large bodies of Orangemen parading the highways, playing party tunes, firing shots, and using the most opprobrious epithets they could invent…a body of Orangemen marched through the town and proceeded to Drumcree church, passing by the Catholic chapel though it was a considerable distance out of their way.”

    1836

    The British army used artillery to quell trouble at the annual gathering at Scarva, County Down.

    1992

    British Secretary of State, Sir Patrick Mayhew declared “the actions of the marchers would have disgraced a tribe of cannibals”

    1996

    Perth and Kinross Council banned a march, telling the County Lodge that “Intolerance, bigotry and prejudice are implicit and explicit in a march of this kind.”

    piebald

  • George

    Eranu,
    “possibley the justifiers of the rioters would also justify a mob in london that attacked a St Patricks Day parade because there was a tri colour?? thankfully that wouldnt happen in london these days. ”

    FYI: The Bloody Sunday memorial march in London, remembering those massacred and which included relatives of the victims, was attacked in 2000 by a British mob the first time it went through the centre of London.

    It’s just everyone in Ireland knows that’s not how the majority of Londoners think and nobody would dare tar the entire city with one anti-Irish brush.

    P.S. Even though London has a huge Irish community, the first St. Patrick’s Day Parade through the city centre only took place in 2000.

  • eranu

    george, it is though considered normal to be anti british and anti protestant here in the south. atleast its not a position that is given any question. thats exactly the problem, whats considered normality is to have these predjudices. southern society in general hasnt grasped this is wrong yet.
    to be fair, a large part of soceity (dublin atleast) has moved on from secterian thinking.

    eranu

  • Bilbo

    “Have you attended any parades in either urban or rural areas which march past non-unionist areas ? ”

    Indeed I have, in fact one of my favourite parades is Rosnowlagh in rural Donegal, usually policed by a mere handful of guards. Absolutely no trouble.

  • Stephen Copeland

    eranu,

    .. it is though considered normal to be anti british and anti protestant here in the south

    I think that that is a very broad-brush kind of statement, and cannot be let sit.

    People in the south are anti-British only in the historical sense. They are anti what Britain did to the country, and anti the Britain of the time. That is why you won’t find too many southerners ‘celebrating’ the south’s forced inclusion in the pre-1922 UK, or in the achievements of that pre-1922 UK. Most people are categorically not anti the present-day UK, where most have friends aand family, whose TV they watch, and whose football teams some support. A British person in the south is treated everywhere, and by everyone, with kindness and courtesy – one of the reasons why there are so many now living in the south.

    Your accusation of anti-Protestantism in the south is simply and plainly incorrect. Neither at official nor at personal levels is there any sense of ‘anti-Protestantism’. On the contrary, it has been quite chic to be a Prod for quite some years now. Most people in the south neither know nor care what religion anyone is, and if anything, the mainstream media in the south is quite strongly anti-Catholic.

  • Baluba

    It’s funny to hear an Orange support lambasting anywhere about pluralism. It’s so laughable I just fell off my stool.

    Protestant parliaments for porotestant people and all that jazz? Forget that one did we? Or did the vast majority of elderly, Christian, wouldn’t say a bad word about anyone Orangemen not support that either.

    Wise up.

  • George

    Eranu,
    I note you gloss over the fact Irish victims were attacked in London the first time they tried to march in that city’s centre.

    I could spend all day citing evidence of anti-Irish attitudes in the UK, from the fact that even today Irish prisoners are up to eight times as likely to die in custody there than other prisoners.

    But let’s move on, it would get us nowhere and prove nothing.

    “is though considered normal to be anti british and anti protestant here in the south.”

    I have a word for that: bollocks.

    For a start, a third of Irish children today are born outside of the Christian sacrament of marriage so where do these people stand on Protestants and Catholics?

    Or what about the fact that virtually every Protestant school in the state is hopelessly oversubsribed due to “Catholic” mothers wanting to see their children educated with Protestants?

    The Through Irish Eyes survey found the Irish are if anything ambivalent about Britain.

    Over half of those surveyed had the UK as the first choice when asked what was the country Ireland had most in common with. A clear second was the United States with the rest also rans.

    Do you really want to know who it is normal to hate in the Irish Republic?

    It’s normal in Ireland to hate the shell suit Dubs and shock, horror, disbelief they hate everyone else, including especially An Garda Siochana.

    And who would blame them when you hear of stories like Terence Wheelock from Summerhill, found dead in a cell.

    I know if I was from Summerhill and the chance came to have a go at the shades last Saturday I’d have been sorely tempted.

  • piebald

    Bilbo
    “Indeed I have, in fact one of my favourite parades is Rosnowlagh in rural Donegal, usually policed by a mere handful of guards. Absolutely no trouble”

    Glad you enjoy it

    – “this is where the Orange Lodge works closely with local residents and the Gardai to ensure a peaceful day out with no hardline political speeches”

    If only the OO could learn from it and apply these lessons to the North.

    Another bright idea would be to not march anywhere where they would need heavy protection from the Police as Jefferry Donaldson wishes for.

    piebald

  • eranu

    “A British person in the south is treated everywhere, and by everyone, with kindness and courtesy – one of the reasons why there are so many now living in the south.”

    Great ! cant wait to see the crowds of inner city dubliners welcoming the Queen on her visit to o’connell street 🙂
    perhaps the british people who were marching on saturday should have waited around a bit longer for some kindness and courtesy? 🙂

    im not talking about any state anti protestantism. just a certain social mind set that some southern catholics have. ive heard things said in my presence at the pub or other social places that people in belfast would never dream of saying. thats just my experiance of the last 8 years in dublin.

    would love to continue this discussion but have to go home now..

  • Eranu
    “it is though considered normal to be anti british and anti protestant here in the south”

    What???? What an outrageous statement!! Total bull!!!

    On to the parade…
    The problem I have with the parade is the LU/Loyalist connection. Protestants have certainly suffered during the course of the troubles and many innocent protestants were murdered. These people deserve justice.
    But who should spread that message? Frazer … with his own connections/support for loyalists? Or Love Ulster … bigots & terrorists? Or FAIR who think people like Robert McConnell are “innocent victims”?

    Wouldn’t a FAR better approach be to hold … for example … a candle vigil outside Leinster Hse?

  • Biffo

    fair_deal

    “Yes” to all the following questions

    To believe that the Protestant reformation was a positive is extremist?

    To believe, as the Irish protestants at that time did, that the “mere” Irish Catholics were “savages and beasts” and to treat them as such is extremist.

    To celebrate the introduction of a bill of rights is triumphalist?

    To celebrate the introduction of a bill of rights by protestnats which exclusively benefited protestants and deliberatety excluded the vast majority of the population on the basis of their religion – yes, that’s triumphalist.

    To mark a key date in the development of democracy is sectarian?

    The key date you celebrate immediately ushered in a prolonged period of unparalleled sectarian persection and discrimination against the vast majority of the population. Democracy took several more centuries to emerge, so yes, marking that key date in particular is definately sectarian.

    To commemmorate the event which ensured your community survived is ascendant?”

    What you describe as the “survival of your community” can also be more significantly and accurately described as the subjugation and persecution of the vast majority at the hands of your community. So, by definition, of course it’s ascendant. How could it possibly be otherwise?

    I’d dearly love to see protestants become a bit more knowledgable their own history.

    Hopefully I’ve done you a service here fair_deal by introducing you to a part of your history that you may be unfamiliar with.

    Posted by Biffo

    (I’ll get back to you on the other thread later)

  • fair_deal

    Piebald

    Someone has been using wikipedia haven’t, any luck with a dictionary yet?

    Leave aside the number of mistakes in the entry e.g. Presbyterians have always been allowed to join, the east belfast parades were legal, the OO disciplined members over the ormeau Road parade.

    My my six quotes attacking a prominent organisation in a place with a history of political and religious controversies (even if 4 of them are over a century old), I am shocked and stunned.

    Did you not notice a pattern in the article too? Dan Winter’s – attacked. Dolly’s Brae – attacked (I have actually seen the musket shot holes in a banner that was at Dolly’s Brae). Crossgar – attacked. Garvagh – attacked. Parading and the OO is an Ulster protestant tradition while it seems for some attacking them is a tradition. Might some of the trouble been avoided if they weren’t attacked?

    You also omitted this from the wikipedia entry from the qualifications of an Orangeman
    “He should by all lawful means, resist the ascendancy of that Church, its encroachments, and the extension of its power, ever abstaining from all uncharitable words, actions or sentiments, towards his Roman Catholic brethren;”

    ““this is where the Orange Lodge works closely with local residents and the Gardai to ensure a peaceful day out with no hardline political speeches””

    The victims group co-operated fully with the Garda throughout about Saturday’s march and it was still attacked.

    At Rossknowlagh Ulster flags and orange standards are displayed but you said their display is provocative in Dublin?

    Also the reason it is held in Rossknowlagh is because the last time it tried to hold a Twelfth parade in Donegal Town the OO was stoned out ot it (a bit like the victims groups on Saturday).

    Parades are a reminder Ulster and Ireland are shared. Some don’t like that reminder preferring we be the identity that dare not speak its name, express its views or have public displays, wishing we would all find little reservations somewhere. Some react violently. Neither changes the fact this place is shared.

    Biffo

    I am well aware of the standard republican perspective of history and I have had it repeated to me on many occasions but I thought you didn’t like victimhood.

    Baluba

    “Protestant parliaments for porotestant people”

    Do you need reminded of the full quote AGAIN?

  • Realist

    I would like to see the Orange Order in Northern Ireland and Scotland have a long, hard, self searching look at what it says on the tin.

    It needs to strive harder to be the pro Protestant faith brotherhood it’s rules demand it to be, and ditch the anti Catholic expression of many of it’s brethren which it’s rules says it doesn’t succour.

    It seems that Lodges in Africa, Australia, Canada, Republic Of Ireland and elsewhere are able to do this.

    Having said that, the intended parade in Dublin was not an Orange parade…a point which some cannot grasp, because of their own bigotries.

    Realist.

  • For Slugger readers who would like to read Aileen’s acccount of the Dublin events, I suggest you visit A TANGLED WEB and check out “Fair City” thread. Well worth a read, I hope you may agree.

  • Biffo

    Realist

    “I am well aware of the standard republican perspective of history and I have had it repeated to me on many occasions but I thought you didn’t like victimhood.”

    You might be aware ot the “standard republican perspective on history”. I’m not familiar with it myself.

    But it’s probably some nonsense like the standard loyalist perspective on history – appearing on a road near your house 3,000 times a year (a celebration of civil and religious liberty for all – where “all” means protestants only)

    Catholics were disposessed and persecuted by protestants, they were the victims of the Williamite settlement. You can’t deny it.

    Jews were the victims of the Nazi’s you can’t deny it.

    It’s a fact, it’s well documented, in both cases.

    The Nazi’s lost and Germans were made to come to terms with their history.

    Irish protestants won and still haven’t come to terms with their history.

    That’s why, centuries later, you still hear rubbish about civil and religious liberty and democracy endlessly and monotonously repeated by the likes of fair_deal.

    History can make painful reading – deal with it and move on (i.e stop repeating racist rubbish from the 17th century).

  • Mick Fealty

    mcswiney,

    “Thankfully this type of thinly veiled bigoted journalism is a rarity”

    Play the ball please.

    To others on the site, please read the commenting policy before commenting. In the first place, your post may be removed and in the second, you may find that you can no longer access the site.

    You can be as politically incorrect as you like, but please, please, play the ball. If you want to pick a fight, then use argument and reason.

  • Brian Boru

    Glad to see a victim of the bombing recognising that Southerners in general are not cut from the same cloth as the rioters.

    Someone here is trotting the line about 1691 leading to advances in “democracy”. It did for some Protestants. Catholics were subjected to savage repression under the renewed Penal Laws, which made even what was there before James II look like a picnic. The % of land owned by Catholics (90% of the population) declined to 2% by 1700 and not long after. Land was to be compulsorily subdivided between the Catholic children of a Catholic parent, whereas all the property could be inherited by Protestant children. A Protestant relative of a Catholic also had the right to take the latter’s property from them. A Catholic could not buy land. A Catholic was forbidden from getting any education, was barred from the legal and order professions, was barred from sending their children abroad for education, and was barred from making a profit exceeding 33% of their rent. For much of the nexr century, agricultural exports from Ireland were illegal and successful Irish industries were destroyed or harmed e.g. Cork linen industry was taxed to extinction. The result was an impoverished (and embittered) nation. Also Catholics could not vote in Irish Parliament elections, and everyone, Church of Ireland or not, had to pay a tithe (tax) to that church.

    All in all then, not a lot for Catholics to celebrate from 1690, whether Irish or British. Quite the opposite!

  • Brian Boru

    George4 at Mar 04, 02.50 is actually Brian Boru.

  • Slugger O’Toole Admin

    Biffo,

    “…it’s probably some nonsense”.

    Is it really too much to ask people to deal with others actually say than making prejudicial assumptions about what you think they might say?

    Mick

  • Realist

    Just as a slight aside, and in reference to the initial article, is the use of the term “hun” sectarian?

    Particularly would be interested in the views of nationalist/republican posters on this…I have always thought it to be a derogatory term for Protestants, in much the same way as some might call Roman Catholics “taigs”.

  • abucs

    “in much the same way as some might call Roman Catholics “taigs”. ”

    Or even Catholics – “Roman” Catholics. :o)

    Yes, i would say ‘hun’ is derogatory.
    Like ‘Charlie’ for the viet cong or any other numerous examples. It dehumanises and is not preferred.

  • Reader

    George8 (??): Or even Catholics – “Roman” Catholics. :o)
    (Reader)
    How else should one distinguish Roman Catholics from Anglo Catholics? – [Anglicans]
    (Reader)

  • fair_deal

    Biffo

    It was me who wrote that not realist.

    In another thread you got pet up about vicimhood but then seem to revel in a victimhood version of history hmmm. I still await your response on that thread if you get the chance it would be much appreciated.

    Yes Penal Laws in Ireland were enacted (despite William’s misgivings) even if they were rarely enforced just as following William’s premature death the Test Acts targetting Non-Anglican Protestants were enacted.

    The formal establishment of a constitutional monarchy is considered a key event in the establishment of democracy in the British Isles and that is what the Glorious Revolution and King William III achieved. It was not the final step (that was not achieved until the equal suffrage of women in the 1920’s although some would argue the absence of a written constitution and House of Lords are unfinished business on that score) but still an important step. The likes of Simon Schama is of that opinion and he could hardly be described as a ‘Loyalist’ historian.

    “The Nazi’s lost and Germans were made to come to terms with their history.”

    What’s the name of that rule about the first person to mention the nazi’s lost the argument?

    from fair deal

  • Realist

    “Or even Catholics – “Roman” Catholics.”

    To whoever made this post, my sincere apologies…I was genuinely unaware that my comments were in any way derogatory to anyone.

    Realist.

  • The Beach Tree

    Realist

    Worry not. It’s one of those little technical things that irks, but shouldn’t spoil. In a genuine thoeological discussion about various degrees of orthodoxy within High Anglican, Eastern Orthodox and ‘Catholic’ churchs, RC is probably a perfectly useful phrase.

    But in general conversation about NI, especially given the low church tendencies of CoI, many ‘catholics’ take it as a small scale ‘calculated’ insult – which it often probably isn’t. But the Catholic church calls itself ‘the Catholic Church’, not the ‘Roman’ anything. It’s Catholic with a big C as opposed to catholic (simply meaning universal) with a small c.

    But in no way should RC be as insulting as Taig, which unlike fenian has not been ‘taken back’ particularly by the nationalist community, maybe because it never belonged to them in the first place.

  • The Beach Tree

    Fair deal – Godwin’s corrolory.

    Godwin’s rule is actually that as the length of a thread increases on usenet, the probability of the Nazi’s being mention approaches 1.

    The corrolory is an widely accepted addendum that the first person to actually do so (unless the thread is about German influene on world events 1933-45)loses the argument, but the rule itself doesn’t say that.

    Fealty’s law might state that ‘the quality of a thread is inversley proportional to the number of uses of the word b1got.’

    – The Beach Tree

    As was my last ‘eranu’ comment

    – TBT –

  • Biffo

    fair_deal

    “In another thread you got pet up about vicimhood but then seem to revel in a victimhood version of history hmmm”

    It’s the old difference between the reality and the (self-serving) perception.

    The dispossesion and subjugation of Irish catholics from the 16th century onwards was real, it actually happened.

    The British government’s current policy of dispossing and subjugating protestants isn’t real, it’s imaginary.

    “..even if they were rarely enforced.”

    That’s a common misrepresentation. They were rigourously enforced (See another post above on land ownership statistics).

    What you should have said is that after roughly a century they weren’t as rigorously enforced. By that stage they had achieved most of their objectives – except, notably, the eradication of Irish catholicism.

    “It was not the final step … but still an important step.”

    You are an orangman I suppose. You wouldn’t be one if you didn’t find something positive in some of the most repressive religious and unjust social legislation introduced anywhere at any time.

    “What’s the name of that rule…?”

    I use the Nazi example because it is appropriate and we are all familiar with it. The point is that Germans know what they and their forbears did in the 1930’s and 40’s, because they lost their war and they’ve had to confront a difficult history that many would prefer to forget.

    People like you don’t know what your forefathers did because they won their wars and were free to invent myths that enabled you to avoid uncomfortable truths, unlike Germans.

    See you back on the DUP thread in a minute.

  • Reader

    Biffo: People like you don’t know what your forefathers did
    But who does? – do you know what your forefathers did? Your 8 Great-Grandparents? Your 16 Great-Great-Grandparents, your 32 Great-Great-Great Grandparents? Have you forgotten that we are all mongrels? That whatever fraction of your (and my, and Fair Deal’s) ancestors were Protestant or Catholic – they all ate, enough, during e.g. the famine, while neighbours starved. And even if everyone’s ancestry was pure on both sides of today’s tribes, it might still have been even worse under the counter-reformation – how could we know? Because, back then, big otry was official policy across the board.
    (Reader)

  • DK

    Fealty’s Rule “The longer a thread goes on in Slugger the further back in time posters are prepared to go”.

    Fealty’s Corrolary: “The first person to mention an event before 1923 automatically loses the arguement, unless the thread directly pertains to events from that time”.

  • fair_deal

    “People like you don’t know what your forefathers did”

    At the start of this peace process Republicans attacked demonisation now they seem to revel in it. Sweeping generalisations abound. Hmmmmm.

    I am a history graduate so I have more of a grounding in history than most members of the general public.

    My family history (on my father’s side at least) has been researched so I have a fair idea what they did. As they were farm labourers and tenant farmers on the lowest rung of society they didn’t do much but eke out an existence.
    As they were Presbyterians they were subject to the Test Acts – that made their marriages illegitimate and small things like that.

    My father’s family’s home parish is Drumtullagh in North Antrim which in the 1830’s Ordnance Survey memoirs it says the people spoke “The Scotch language in great purity” hence my interest in Ulster-Scots (but if you follow the standard republican analysis you will know doubt think I’m making that up.)

    By the way we also turned out in 1798 but the Act of Union satisfied our demands and have been Unionist ever since (apart from one Great-great uncle) and have been involved in the Orange Order for at least five generations.

  • Dk

    Fair_deal – I think that makes you a legitimate target.

    DK

  • fair_deal

    Biffo

    “The dispossesion and subjugation of Irish catholics from the 16th century onwards was real, it actually happened.”

    Again you chose to ignore the Test Acts, Catholicism was not the only denomination to suffere legal repression. The Penal Laws are commonly accepted as a 17th century development rather than a 16th century (the elizabethan one is a bit of a stretch).

    Below is an irish history site prepared to concede the laws weren’t enforce
    “Although the Penal Laws were largely unenforced during the 18th century, they remained on the books and were still legally binding until Catholic Emancipation in 1829.” So its not just “people like me” of that opinion.

    http://www.irishclans.com/articles/penallaws.html

    The falsehood of your comparison of a 21st century Ulster Protestant’s guilt for the Penal Laws and a 20th century German’s guilt over the Holocaust.

    1. The Holocaust was industrialised mass murder with 12 million victims of which Jews (about 50% of the pre-war population) Romanys (about 90% of the pre-war European population) and the physically and mentally disabled were the primary victims. The Penal Laws were not systematic mass murder of millions.
    2. The Nazi party had hundreds of thousands of members. Millions of Germans voted for the Nazi party, in fact a majority did (the election that swept the Germans to full power involved electoral pacts with a number of local extreme nationalist groups and their combined votes was a majority). Millions of Germans fought in the wars of Nazi aggression. The Penal Laws were passed by the Irish parliament that had no mandate from the population protestant or otherwise.
    3. The Nazi laws against Jews were systematically enforced. The Penal Laws weren’t. On land the nominal title may have been handed over but this was often a paper arrangement between neighbours – this type of relationship was not unprecendented as during the Plantation land was granted to Catholics even though it wasn’t supposed to be (land they had greater title too than the previous Gaelic system had granted them).
    4. The Nazis actions were a majority population turning on a religious minority within it. In Ireland it was the actions of a fearful minority and laws written in fear just like the present ID and terrow laws are often foolish and bad law.
    5. The Nazi demonisation of Jews was utterly irrational unless you believe the Elders of Zion forgery. Jewish Germans had not attacked the majority population in Germany ever nor had they been disloyal to the German state. The graves in the German graveyards of WWI marked with the Star of David attest to the ultimate sacrifice many of them made out of loyalty to germany. In 1690’s Ireland the 1641 anti-protestant rebellion was within living memory, the actions of Lord Tyrconnell fresh in the mind and the Catholic elite of Ireland and much of the population had supported the losing side in the Williamite wars. Thus the protestant minority’s fear of the Catholic majority was by no means irrational.
    6. The Holocaust required the active involvment of tens of thousands of Germans and the acquiesce of hundreds of thousands.

    Nazism was a popular project involving the active involvment and encouragment of millions of Germans. The penal Laws weren’t.The immediate post-war German generation had people living and breathing in there families or communities directly culpable for mass murder. 21st century Northern Ireland has no one directly culpable for the Penal Laws nor has had so for multiple generations.

    “some of the most repressive religious and unjust social legislation introduced anywhere at any time.”

    You seem unaware of contemporary 17th and 18th century European history. The treatment and laws against the protestant minorities in France and Austria was more severe than the penal laws. You should also check on Jewish history in Europe, pogroms, ghettos, the Inquisition etc.

    “they won their wars and were free to invent myths”

    From your comments it is clear those who lost the battles were able to create their own myths too. History is not a comic with good guys and bad guys and to portray it as such is an insult to history.

    Furthermore by your logic if an historical event did not result in a perfect situation then it should not be marked even if you emphasise the positive aspects e.g. Orange banners celebrate the Bill of rights but there isnt one that celebrates the penal laws.

    Will you tell Americans they can’t celebrate 4th July or shall I? Will you tell the RoI government not to mark the Easter Rising (after all it sparked a chain of events that led to partition something you find abhorrent) or shall I?

    DK

    LOL
    1. Which bit makes me the legitimate target?
    2. The couple of death threats I have received had given me a few hints that that may already be the case.

  • Martin

    I was just thinking about levels of security at protest marches and double standards—–FAIR march in Dublin and a protest demo against it=not enough Gardai and Michael Mc Dowell not expecting the slightest bit of trouble,even though everyone else in the known universe thought there might be a tensy weansy bit of tension.

    Shannon Airport used for US troops going to IRAQ
    and later George Bush’s stop over there + protest demonstrations against both of the above
    =Security ring of steel,no Gardai got time off within 5 counties,200 Gardai on horse back,Free State army brought from Limerick,Clonmell,Cork,Civil defence units on the roads as well as the FCA–locals being constantly stopped at checkpoints for identification,tanks, artillery and every piece of hardware that could be found going in a constant flow stretching all the way from Limerick to Shannon lasting several hours—now its safe to say that the resources to quell any trouble at the FAIR march in Dublin were available .

    Now, As I have critisised Mc Dowell,I eagerly await the traditional Ball not Man reminder that I have come to expect as a natural follow on whenever I mention him,closet PDs are so predictable

  • Martin

    Where have you been old chap?

    What is it with you and PD’s?

  • ………………..and do you think that the events in Dublin last week have any implications for our inclusive pc vision and should we try to bring a rioter on board to prove our commitment to make us representative ;o)

  • Martin

    Bertie !!!!

    To put it bluntly–I can’t stand them [apart from Liz O’Donnell]

    how the hell are you,me old friend,I have so much to fill you in on—I spent several months hijacking threads on ATW with the help of MR,Aileen and Colm and several passers through–we tried to find you and let you and FYU on board but I could never find you—whats been happening on this end—its a pity I only found you now as I think the above post will finally get me barred—If I am toast,meet me at United Irelanders place.

  • Martin

    Bertie,
    I don’t think one of those rioters should be brought on board—-I may be a nationalist but I have to say Ive never met a Dub that I liked–well there is George but he moved out of there–can’t say I blame him

  • Maybe Charlie Bird would be interested?

    So you’re a nationalist from NI, who doesn’t like Dubliners, the rioters were (or at least some/most of them) Dublin republican who don’t like O****** B******** in their capital (and which they presubably consider the OBs capital as well) and a group of OBs who came down to Dublin to cause trouble by some assessments, ending up as, if not quite universally cinsidered the good guys but at least not the worst guys and who owed (and recognised) a dept of gratitude to the police of this foreign state.

    I’m confused! 😉

  • Martin

    Bertie,

    It gets better—I am actually a pro-partitionist Anti-Partitionist.

    Whats FYU been up to—did you persuade him to go through with the sex change operation ???

  • darth rumsfeld

    “many ‘catholics’ take it as a small scale ‘calculated’ insult – which it often probably isn’t. But the Catholic church calls itself ‘the Catholic Church’, not the ‘Roman’ anything. It’s Catholic with a big C as opposed to catholic (simply meaning universal) with a small c.”

    .. and so if I say I have catholic tastes it doesn’t mean that I would eat a whole one :0).

    Funnily enough I have noticed in my area that for the first time there are signs put up outside chapels to identify the demonination, and it is described as “Roman Catholic”

    BTW why is it that Stephen Copland only appears here to deny that there is any anti-Protestant feeling in the south- long suffering bloggers will recall that he appears to come from County Monaghan, yet was educated at Campbell, and is an Episcopalian -as distinct from an Anglican since we’re parsing our religious terms here- who claims an insight into the mindset of that diverse group of non -RC citizens in the republic. it’s almost as if he didn’t really exist- unlike me obviously

  • Martin

    I’ve warned you about assertive women, no good can come of it 😉

    Biffo

    I can’t see how it is an insult to use the term Roman Catholic. Anglicans consider themselves Catholic so they need another way of being specific.

  • Jo

    I followed a link above to see what Aileen Quinton wrote and what I found didn’t inspire me.

    Talking of victims and forgiveness, she said:

    “Of course Gordon Wilson’s interview that is often refered to as him forgiving the IRA was no such thing either. He said something like he held no bitterness for them and had prayed for them.”

    This is, quite simply, not true.

    ……………………

    “I have no desire for revenge or retaliation,” he said. “Killing the people who killed my daughter will not bring her back. So I forgive the bombers and I leave everything to God and I believe someday, I will see my daughter again.”

    The whole country was shocked by Gordon’s forgiveness. No one had quite ever forgiven the other side so publicly before. For the first time in a long time, people began to talk about forgiving one another, to forgive the bombers, and to let go of resentment, and this talk of forgiveness and reconciliation helped lead up to the Good Friday peace agreement in 1998. Gordon traveled around the world promoting reconciliation until his death from cancer a few years ago.

    So when I was living in Northern Ireland, I went to the town of Enniskillen to meet Gordon Wilson’s wife, Joan, who is still alive, and living in their home. She invited me in for a cup of tea that afternoon, and after we were chatting, I asked her, “Joan, how did he do it? How did you and Gordon forgive the people who killed your daughter?” This is what she said to me. “Gordon and I had been married for thirty years, and every night before we went to bed, we knelt down together and prayed the Lord’s prayer. Every night for thirty years! When Gordon was in the hospital that afternoon, he said to me, ‘We have to forgive. Otherwise, we can never pray the Lord’s prayer again.’ We wanted to be able to say to God, ‘Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us.’ So we forgave the murderers, and we were able to continue praying the Lord’s prayer.”

    It seems that even victims will misrepresent other victims, whetehr unknowingly or deliberately.

    I concur with Bog Exiles comment above. The march, aborted or planned, is unworthy of victims and brings no credit on anyone associated with it at all.

  • Biffo

    fair_deal – apologies this reply is so long-winded I’ve had to split it in two.

    Parte the first.

    “At the start of this peace process Republicans attacked demonisation now they seem to revel in it. Sweeping generalisations abound. Hmmmmm”

    Interesting that you assume I’m a republican because I challenge the orange order version of history.

    I’m not a republican my last extended contribution to slugger was a heated exchange with henry94 who is a republican.

    I am opposed to bullshit and propaganda whatever the source. I like thoughtful and objective arguments.

    “I am a history graduate so I have more of a grounding in history than most members of the general public.”

    Did you major in Ulster History? No? I thought not.

    “My family history (on my father’s side at least) has been researched so I have a fair idea what they did.”

    I’ve tried as far as I can to research my family history. It’s much more difficult if you your ancestors were catholic – visit proni and compare the records – catholics don’t seem to have officially existed until relatively recently.

    “My father’s family’s home parish is Drumtullagh in North Antrim which in the 1830’s Ordnance Survey memoirs it says the people spoke “The Scotch language in great purity” hence my interest in Ulster-Scots (but if you follow the standard republican analysis you will know doubt think I’m making that up.)”

    There you go with that imaginary “republican analysis” again – where do you get that from. It certainly isn’t from anything I’ve ever said. Try to keep your assumptions out of the debate.

    Personally, both my mother and father’s family come from the Slieve Gallon area of south Derry (as in “Ye Bonnie Bonnie Slieve Gallon Braes”) It was a bilingual Irish and Scots speaking area at the time of the 1830’s ordnance survey memoirs, if you must know.

    I know my Scots, Lallans and Doric from my Ullans and I know my Gaeilge from my Gàidhlig. I could give some employees of the USA a run for their money.

    “Again you chose to ignore the Test Acts..”

    Oh no I don’t – the penalties suffered by Presbyterians, though harsh, were trivial compared to those suffered by catholics. The fact that both catholics and presbyterians were penalised has lead to a misconception that they were penalised equally – nothing could be further from the truth. I can’t stress that enough.

    “Below is an irish history site prepared to concede the laws weren’t enforce”

    It doesn’t – if you had read the whole article you linked to you’d see that the rest of the article srtingly conradicts that statement. Like a lot of internet history sites, it’s patchy.

    About the penal laws what was it Edmund Burke said? “..as well fitted for the oppression, impoverishment and degradation of a feeble people and the debasement in them of human nature itself as ever proceeded from the perverted ingenuity of man.”

    But he was only a respected and influential politician who actually lived at the time (and opposed Irish independance and republicanism to boot), so what would he know?

    Yours sincerely Biffo

  • Biffo

    fair_deal

    Parte the second

    “..as during the Plantation land was granted to Catholics even though it wasn’t supposed to be..”

    You have missed the main feature of the plantation. The land belonged to catholics, it was taken off them and given to protestants. Some catholics were “granted land” for services rendered.

    “..(land they had greater title too than the previous Gaelic system had granted them)..”

    As individuals the Gaelic system didn’t grant them any title to the land.

    “The falsehood of your comparison of a 21st century Ulster Protestant’s guilt for the Penal Laws and a 20th century German’s guilt over the Holocaust.”

    I’m talking about 21st century Germans. I have spoken to germans about this. I’m not talking about the degree of wrongdoing. I’m talking about the fact that they did wrong.

    Germans lost their war to dominate the world as the master race. Germans don’t celebrate the war now.

    Irish Protestants won their war to dominate Ireland as the protestant ascendancy. They still celebrate it 315 years later – 12th July – thanks to a large dose of mythology which obliterates the injustice of what they achieved.

    “In 1690’s Ireland the 1641 anti-protestant rebellion was within living memory, the actions of Lord Tyrconnell fresh in the mind…”

    Classic, oft-repeated mythology.

    In 1641 native Ulster people rose up against cruel, unjust, foreign occupiers. The attrocities carried out by Essex were still in living memory and the locals were still being robbed as the plantation process was still ongoing and a reality in 1641.

    (BTW, the logic of your take on 1641 would dictate that if a protestant breaks into my home to steal my property and I fight back I am guilty of an “anti-protestant” assault)

    “Thus the protestant minority’s fear of the Catholic majority was by no means irrational.”

    That’s one point I agree with. Fear of retribution is not irrational and the instinct to supress the victim is certainly rational.

    “You seem unaware of contemporary 17th and 18th century European history. The treatment and laws against the protestant minorities in France and Austria was more severe than the penal laws.”

    I’m aware of the ill-treatment of protestants, I just don’t know enough about it and I don’t pretend to. I certainly don’t justify, excuse, condone or celebrate it.

    The Irish penal laws were so sick that I have never imaginated that the injustice inflicted on protestants in Europe could have been any worse. No doubt you can give me details and we’ll compare them blow for blow. That would be a genuinely interesting historical exercise.

    “Furthermore by your logic if an historical event did not result in a perfect situation then it should not be marked even if you emphasise the positive aspects e.g. Orange banners celebrate the Bill of rights but there isnt one that celebrates the penal laws.”

    No, my logic dictates that a historical event should be judged on the effect it had. If the event benefited some people – great, let’s celebrate. If at the same time it lead to the futher subjugation of a much greater number of people, then no – celebrations seem inappropriate.

    “..(after all it sparked a chain of events that led to partition something you find abhorrent)..”

    I don’t find partition abhorrent, stop making assumptions, I’m happy enough to live in the UK. I am not entirely convinced of a united Ireland, though I can see advantages.

    If unionism appealed to catholics here it wouldn’t harm my aspirations.

    But I would find unionism a lot more convincing if it decommissioned the loyalist myths and propaganda.

    Maybe you unionists should be less defensive and stop imagining that every criticism is a republican assault.

    Ditch the victimhood comfort blanket – it’s threadbare.

    Exit the land of perception and enter the land of reality.

    Biffo

  • Realist

    24 June 2006 Dublin had a gay poarade. Its fourteenth. When Belfast has its first one
    encouraging diversity and all that good stuff then have a whinge about a sectarina parade producing rioting.

  • Miss Fitz

    August 5th 2006
    Belfast
    Pride Parade

    I go every year, its fun

    What on earth are you talking about realist

  • lib2016

    The leading unionist party also sends a delegation to the march every year – to aggressively denounce and insult the marchers. Perhaps Realist thought that the largest community here might accept responsibility for the actions of their elected leaders – silly idea, really! 😉

  • Rory

    Come, come. We must not disparage the exercise of courageous high principle whenever we that have rare opportunity to see it.

    It surely follows that a party which does not flinch from its heavy moral duty of curtailing the joy of small small children by locking up those evil satanic instruments, playgrouhd swings, should shirk from its duty of so making every attempt that no adult give expression to the joy of their sexuality.

    I am quite sure that no discrimination is intended to homosexual people and that the party would be equally opposed to any simalar expression of joy, sexual or otherwise from any quarter whatsoever. A principled killjoy opportunist is always an equal opportunities opportunist.

    A hip young Yankee visitor to Alabama once asked his cousin, a young miserably oppressed native,

    “How come you Southern Baptists are so down on dancing?”

    ” ‘Cause we don’t want God to think we’re fucking’ standin’ up”.

  • TAFKABO

    Aye, let’s never forget that locking up swings is much much worse than attacking people.

    Not real people, just Orange Bastards.

  • TAFKABO

    Out of interest, when was the last time someone chained up swings?

    Did/does this really happen, or is it another urban myth?

  • orange basher

    Why are we into understanding these orange cunts so? would they even give us the same thought. Ponder that. Right, now stop giving intolerant shits the time that they would deny others. This is a sick society that even debates the merits of being nice to these bastards.

  • figo

    I can recall the swings in the Ormeau Park being chained up many years ago

    Don’t think it happens now.

    The only thing chained up these days are the gates to Irish league football grounds, but there are so few going through the gates anyway, it hardly matters.

  • Figo The only thing chained up these days are the gates to Irish league football grounds, but there are so few going through the gates anyway, it hardly matters.

    Well that is certainly progress. Almost 70,000 watched Dublin trounce Laois yesterday, just about the same amount that watched gay icon Beckham bend it.

    The Orangies should have been allowed march up and odwn O’Connell Street all day long, subject to the needs of business. Sure, a lot of people in Dublin would not have liked Oragies or the vile creed they represent. But the same is true of the interminable marches Sinn Fein/IRA (use to) organize. Sauce for the goose and all that.

  • aileen

    “I followed a link above to see what Aileen Quinton wrote and what I found didn’t inspire me.

    Talking of victims and forgiveness, she said:

    “Of course Gordon Wilson’s interview that is often refered to as him forgiving the IRA was no such thing either. He said something like he held no bitterness for them and had prayed for them.”

    This is, quite simply, not true. ”

    Not wishing to reinvigorate this thread but in the interests of factual accuracy.

    This quite simply is true and Jo’s reminisences (whether true or not) do not alter what was said and not said in the interview that I was specifically alluding to and to which she has seen fit to misrepresent as me saying that Gordon Wilson never forgave the IRA.