Remarkable degree of post riot consensus?

The question of Saturday’s riots took up a large chunk of Monday night’s Question and Answers on RTE. Definately worth watching again (video file) – if only for the tone of the contributions from the Unionist participants in the debate. Not least Jeffrey Donaldson, who signs off with a caution to people not to get too hung on simple stories from the past.

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  • starbuck

    last comment was by starbuck @5.35

  • Mickhall

    “However I am interested in your attempt to link the death of Leonard Kaithcher with anti semitism”

    I stated a fact which is in the public domain. The effect of this 1980 murder was first brought to my attention by an SDLP member. Consider the impact it had on an already dwindling Jewish community in Belfast.
    Posted realist

    Realist,

    With respect,what you are doing here is equating course and effect and coming up with a republican movement which is [you claim] anti Semitic, which imo is nonsense. Did a number of Belfast Jews who happened to be businessmen relocate after Mr Leonard Kaithcher death, yes unfortunatly they did, but so to did many Christian businessmen during that period. The fact was both groups had the means to relocate and could conduct their business almost anywhere, thus there relocation had nothing to do with their race or religion. they and their families simple could take no more of the troubles.

    Just as after Thomas Niedermayer death inward investment slowed to a trickle, yet as I have said this had nothing to do with the Provos being anti German.

    Liberation movement the world over have had Jewish people at there fore. Not least the ANC, who have always had a cordial relationship with Irish Republicanism. Do you really believe this would have occurred if the Republican movement showed one iota of anti semitism. Please show some respect.

    I wish you well
    Mick Hall

  • Realist

    “With respect,what you are doing here is equating course and effect and coming up with a republican movement which is [you claim] anti Semitic, which imo is nonsense.”

    Mick,

    With repect, I made no such claims. I claimed that the republican movement bears many similarities to Nazism.

    You have refuted but one out of nine points I made.

    I wish you well too.

    Realist.

  • elfinto

    “I do understand FAIR’s point of view. I just find it sectarian, offensive and dehumanising to Catholics in general.”

    elfinto.

    You replied:

    I trust the irony in this comment is not lost on you.

    And, yet again, the pathetic positioning to the default position of republicanism under pressure that “it’s all because we are poor Catholics”.

    Realist,

    That where you are sadly mistaken because I am not a Catholic. I just recognise and find abhorrent the anti-Catholic bigotry propagated by FAIR, LoveUlster, DUP, Orange Order etc.

    It seems that it is you who has been making sectarian assumptions that republican = Catholic.

    You mentioned anti-Semitism. I first encountered this at the controlled primary school I went to where my fellow 7 year old pupils, who came from the local loyalist estate, told me that the Jewish girl in my class ate dogshit and never changed her knickers. She left at the end of the year to go to another school.

  • DK

    elfinto,

    “Well the objectors are entitled to their view. I’m sure you would be mightily pissed off if the Easter Commemoration took place at Stormont, or outside the City Hall or maybe the Shankill Road. However mainly these commemorations take place in graveyards in strong nationalist areas. That’s the difference.”

    Actually no – you’re assuming that because I am standing up for FAIR that I fit into a nice box that you can demonise…. a bit like with FAIR.

    I think that there should be Easter Commemorations at Stormont and the City Hall (these would be comparable to Dublin city centre). Shankill road has too many head-cases on it and this would lead to a riot that, unlike Dublin, everyone would predict.

    The trouble is that the Easter marchers would end up with the same sort of demonising that FAIR got (paramilitiarism, dubious deceased, symbols, perceived provocation), only from the other side of the divide. Again, there would be no attempt to see what the celebration/parade means.

    It’s only when we can take a step back and look at what these groups are trying to highlight, rather than assume they must be bad because they come from the other side. These are people too.

  • elfinto

    DK, Realist or whoever you may be

    I don’t need to demonise FAIR. I can look at their website and find out what they stand for and what they stand for is highly selective, sectarian, offensive and dehumanising.

  • G73

    elfinto: “I don’t need to demonise FAIR. I can look at their website and find out what they stand for and what they stand for is highly selective, sectarian, offensive and dehumanising”

    You are of course right, it is highly selective but could you tell me what you find offensive and dehumanising about what FAIR stand for please?
    Not the people in the organisation but what the organisation stands for.

  • Realist

    elfinto,

    “That where you are sadly mistaken because I am not a Catholic.”

    I ain’t interested in your religion. I find it pathetic the way in which many republicans revert to “it’s because we’re Catholics” mantra when it suits, to deflect from the real issue…nationality and identity.

    Funny how you have latched onto anti semetism…ignoring 8 out of 9 other similarities I cited between republicanism and nazism.

    “I just recognise and find abhorrent the anti-Catholic ####### propagated by FAIR, LoveUlster, DUP, Orange Order etc.”

    Who is the “etc”?

    Realist.

  • Mickhall

    Realist,
    I did not reply to your questions 1 to 8 because imo and with respect they were not relevant, as they did nothing to equate SF/PIRA with fascism. The questions you posed could link the PRM behavior with almost any number of liberation movements or nations, whether fascist or not, as the charges you made unfortunately are not specific to fascist organizations. However as you will not leave this matter alone and continue to dig yourself in, I feel I have no alternative but to reply. As an example of the aforementioned I have reworded your own questions to prove my point.[hopefully]

    1/ For decades if not centuries the British state waged a murder campaign in defiance of the democratic will of the Irish people repeatedly expressed at the ballot box.
    2/ For decades the military wing of the British State, the British army waged a murder campaign in defiance of the democratic will of the Irish people repeatedly expressed at the ballot box.
    3/ The British State allegiance has not been to the Irish people and constitution but to the “Crown” to whom they swear allegiance.
    4/ The Crown forces not only rejected the majority of the population in Ireland by force of arms, (perfectly legitimate, if peaceful)but refused to acknowledge the legitimacy of Dail Eireann for seven decades, thus treating the express will of the majority of people of Ireland with contempt.
    5/ The Nazis had a military wing (SS) and the British state have their covert para military wing (UVF/UFF). This expressly breaches Article of the UN Constitution.
    6/ Crown Forces and their covert para-militaries, killed well over 1000 people since 1970 without a mandate from anybody,[within ireland] as well as maiming 20000 or so others.
    7/ Crown forces or their surrogates murdered elected representatives of the people in both the Republic Of Ireland (Eddie Fullerton) and in Northern Ireland
    8/ Crown forces and the covert para-militaries they controlled bombed and shot hundreds of non combatants…ordinary men women and children going about their business. They had a total disregard for human life, akin to that displayed by the Nazis.
    Realist, now no matter what I might feel about the British State’s occupation and continued presence in Ireland and despite all of the above, I would not for a moment regard it as a fascist State. Fascist is something peculiar and precise, just because you feel some individuals, organizations or nations behave in a manner you appall, this does not on its own make them nazis. Sadly that this happens these days is just another example of the bastardization of language I previously mentioned on slugger.

    all the best

    posted by mick hall

  • Realist

    Mick Hall,

    Isn’t it fascinating that unionists/loyalists and indeed Protestants in Northern Ireland have been labelled Nazis by The President Of the Republic Of Ireland (for which she was forced to apologise), a Priest supposedly responsible enough to verify PIRA decommissioning (for which he was forced to apologise), and by several Slugger posters of a republican hue?

    Your attempt to twist my observations back round are ill thought out, and indeed some nonsensical.

    I have clearly demonstrated that several similarities exist between the republican movement and naziism. There are many more.

    It could be argued that the very notion of “ourselves” is naziesque in sentiment.

    Have a great weekend.

    Realist.

  • Mickhall

    Posted by Realist
    Isn’t it fascinating that unionists/loyalists and indeed Protestants in Northern Ireland have been labelled Nazis by The President Of the Republic Of Ireland (for which she was forced to apologise), a Priest supposedly responsible enough to verify PIRA decommissioning (for which he was forced to apologise), and by several Slugger posters of a republican hue?

    Realist,

    You make a perfectly fair point here and partly due to our little debate, I would like to think, if such a thing occurred again and I had an opportunity, I would intervene and point out it is both wrong and offensive to claim that the the Protestant people of the north are Fascist, as they are clearly not, far from it in fact.
    Thanks about the weekend and the same to you, for as they used to say in the 1960s TV program, the [my] weekend starts here.

    mickhall

  • elfinto

    G73

    What do I find offensive and dehumanising about FAIR?

    The complete failure to mention loyalist paramilitaries and their actions.

    The complete failure to mention the victims of loyalist paramilitaries – whether Catholic, Protestant or other.

    The complete failure to mention the victims of the British army, RUC and UDR.

    The glorification of the UDR and RUC and failure to mention collusion.

    The disgraceful attempt to link Eugene Reavey to the Kingsmills massacre. The scandalous omission of any mention of the killing of the three Reaveys by a UDR/RUC/UVF gang (including Robert McConnell) the previous evening

    The hysterical attacks on the GAA, the Catholic Church.

    The false suggestion that Irish republicans and Catholics are wholly to blame for the violence and hatred which occurred in the north of Ireland during the ‘Troubles’.

    The false suggestion that unionists and Protestants bear no responsibility whatsoever for any of the violence which occurred during the violence.

    I think thats enough for now.

    elfinto

  • elfinto

    Realist,

    It would also be fairly easy to draw parallels between Ulster loyalism and Nazism.

    e.g The Fuhrer-istic demagoguery of Rev Paisley

    It’s interesting that you feel it’s perfectly acceptable for you to compare Irish republicanism and Nazi-ism, but if anyone compares unionism to Nazi-ism then that makes them, wait for it, a fascist!!

    Your hypocrisy knows no bounds!

    elfinto