Flags And Emblems: Equality or Neutrality The Solution?

One of the motions passed on the first night of Sinn Fein’s Ard Fheis was to do with the party’s stance on Flags and Emblems in the six counties. The ‘Equality or Neutrality’ principle has very much become the accepted position by nationalists since Alex Maskey first headlined the issue as Belfast Mayor a number of years ago. Whilst becoming very popular amongst nationalists (and catching the SDLP on the hop), unionists have disappointed nationalists by not showing any signs of a willingness to reciprocate. With a number of local government councils likely to face legal action in the months/ years ahead over the matter, it will appear this issue is not going to go away any time soon.

  • john

    Where I come from in North Down (ND) there are numerous flags, positioned on main roads, associated with loyalist organisations such as the UDA and UVF. The number of these flags has increase significantly over the last 5 years, especially in areas where they previously had not been.

    Although the local population in ND are predomiantly Unionist, the vast majority of people in ND would not have any support for these loyalist organisations, and would not agree with any form of terrorist acts.

    I feel that certain loyalist elements in the ND area are using the flags to mark out their territories and intimanate local people and visitors to the area.

    I am a unionist and I feel intiminated by these flags and do not welcome these symbols of terrorisim into my area. I can only guess at how intimanated nationalists feel when they see these flags.

  • Michael Shilliday

    I don’t thik they are worried about flags of illigal groups, they want to strip Northern Ireland of symbols of Britishness with a pretence of “equality”. Its yet another failure to grasp facts by the Shinners.

  • Michael Shilliday

    I don’t thik they are worried about flags of illigal groups, they want to strip Northern Ireland of symbols of Britishness with a pretence of “equality”. Its yet another failure to grasp facts by the Shinners.

  • Does this policy claim mean that each Easter it’ll not just be the Irish flag they put up on lampposts, leave up at night, and leave to dessimate into tatters over the following months? It’s good to know that they’ll now treat the union jack with the same disrespect as they treat the tricolour.

  • Declan

    I’m not a shinner; John is not a shinner.
    I don’t want to see communities hacked up into sectarian ghettos.
    As much as it gauls me to say it, equality or neutrality is the right way forward.
    If you argue with that policy, what does that say about you?
    If neither neutrality or equality appeals to you, what is left? sectarianism?

  • Michael Shilliday

    This is not about communities, its about the flags that fly from courts councils and Stormont.

  • trev

    Surely if we are to have a neutral working and living environment, flags which are percieved to be representative of one tribe or the other should not be flown from lamposts or public buildings.

  • Mick Fealty

    Trev,

    “if we are to have a neutral working and living environment”

    That’s a valid subject for discussion in itself.

  • Declan

    You don’t think that that flying a flag from a civic building perceived by one community as a cultura identifier for another community would be a problem?

    Does anyone disagree that there are significant numbers of people from both sides of the divide who would feel excluded by either the irish national flag or the british standard being flown on a civic building?

    If we can agree on that, then the argument comes down to whether it is acceptable for an administration that wants to govern in a non-partisan way to willfully exclude significant numbers of its citizens.

  • IJP

    This is a difficult issue, because there is a difference between ‘civic identity’ and ‘national identity’. This means in practice that Northern Ireland (the unit) is part of the UK (and part of the ‘British civic state’), hence Union Flags on buildings. But also that its people are British and Irish (i.e. we have a dual ‘national identity’).

    It is important to Unionists, to symbolize the 1998 Agreement, that the Union Flag is used as a ‘civic symbol’, it is all part of being within the UK. On the other hand, it would be responsible of them not to use the flag provocatively – something which annoys most people who care about the flag.

    It would be fair to say that Nationalists have shown better community leadership on this issue, often ensuring only one tricolour is flown in Nationalist-majority towns (i.e. one per town, rather than one per lamppost). There may be lots of reasons for that, enough for another thread.

    Finally there is the issue of paramilitary flags raised by John. Bluntly, he will know that my party (and, to be fair, a couple of the independent Councillors) have gotten their hands dirty on that one on behalf of the vast majority in North Down, while others have stood aside.

    Let’s be clear: no one wants to deprive people of their heritage, nor of their ability to celebrate it, but we do want a community into which we can invite visitors without feeling that there are symbols all about them that make them uncomfortable. In places like Holywood and Groomsport we have made significant strides towards attaining that goal – unfortunately John is right that other areas have not progressed so quickly. Without wishing to be too ‘liberal literati’ about it, there are underlying problems there which we need to look at overall (for example, we need to study clearly whether our community renewal strategy is the right one for the more deprived areas of Bangor – again, my party was the only one represented at a Conference on the subject last week).

    As usual, in the end, it comes down to responsibility from all sides – and despite the fact I think we’re genuinely lucky with the quality of Cllrs in all parties in North Down in general, the fact is there’s precious little of that about in NI politics.

  • Declan

    I have to say I am impressed by your comments IJP. I agree with most of what you are saying and I accept that NIreland is part of a UK administration. However, I’m not so sure that there is this difference between civic and cultural identity. In Northern Ireland for a long time, civic identity was designed to mirror one cultural identity and exclude the other. I don’t want to see that happen again in councils around the province.
    I favor neutrality, which I think most people in NIreland would.
    What are the advantages of having British emblems on civic buildings?
    I can see many disadvantages.

  • fair_deal

    Irish nationalism has accepted the constitutional position of Northern Ireland. Accept the consequences of that acceptance, the official symbols remain.

    In areas were the existing protocol hasn’t worked to remove illegal paramilitary flags take them down, do so persistently and be willing to face up to some violent reaction in the process. It may not be an easy process but we will be in a better place at the end. Regrettably I think the PSNI and other stats will run a mile from such.

  • fair_deal

    From Fair Deal

    Again that was me NOT john

    MICK

    This is the second time the commenting system has switched my identity to the first person responding to the thread. There seems to something askew with the commenting system.

  • Mick Fealty

    Okay FD. I’ll try to track down the problem. We are shifting servers at the moment which may account for it. But I’ll get onto it asap!

  • IJP

    Declan

    I agree entirely.

    Basically, as I see it, the problem lies with ‘neutrality’, though. I think most people in NI want to get on with each other, but I don’t think people want to live in some ‘cultural void’ where we’re afraid to express our national pride (be it British, Irish or whatever) for fear of ‘offending’ someone. And that’s a tough one to manage.

    The argument against Union flags on civic buildings is that by having nothing flying, you don’t offend anyone. A legitimate point. The argument in favour is that membership of the UK was part of the 1998 deal and it’s important to Unionists, and that membership is symbolized by display of British symbols (such as the Union Flag on buildings). A legitimate point (provided one accepts that this is done in line with the rest of the UK, i.e. on designated days, rather than 365 days a year). So, as so often, we have two legitimate points competing with one another! (I’m not convinced of the legitimacy of the argument for flying both national flags, btw, because that would imply a direct civic link to the Irish State which does not exist under the Agreement.)

    I guess it’s similar if I see people out in a Rangers or a Celtic shirt. Part of me thinks ‘Yes, they should be entitled to do that, as a cultural expression’. And part of me thinks ‘That’s just asking for trouble and sticking other people’s noses in it’.

    There are no easy answers to such symbolic questions.

    That is why I have argued consistently since election to reframe such debates completely. We need to move towards a society where, frankly, nobody notices flags on buildings or shirts in the street (already the case for a lot of people, of course).

    To achieve this, I would argue, we need to start getting real about our common interests – a functioning economy (alongside a top-notch education system all the way to third level) with interesting, well-paid jobs; a world-class police service which provides civic defence, protection and education for everyone; an outstanding health service where waiting lists are a thing of the past. Did any motions at the SF ard-fheis or DUP conference come up with concrete, feasible proposals on such matters? But if people focused on working out how we achieve these concrete outcomes on all our behalves, I think they would come to realize how irrelevant symbolism really is and be more inclined to live and let live rather than restrict any expression of heritage.

    But I hasten to add that’s a novice’s view, I don’t have all the answers by any means, and that is why forums like this one are so valuable!

  • Declan

    IJP,

    Without this turning into a love-in, I agree with your points about normalising emblems and avoiding a cultural vacuum. I see myself as Irish and British and have no problem with that. Neither is compromised by the other identity. I object to some British symbols due to their association with royalty, imperialism and state oppression not because of their Britishness.
    I think we should use shared NIreland emblems. I was very surprised at how accepted the PSNI symbols have become – I wouldn’t have designed it the way it is, but if it is acceptable by and large, then great.
    Perhaps we need an interim period where we use shared emblems or no emblems until we can progress to the point where we can accept both cultures equally.
    I agree with your point about the Tricolour – its a republican symbol not necessarily an Irish one.
    Your points regarding social/economic issues are spot on although I would disagree with the liberal alliance’s methods of redressing the issues. I believe that social justice and redistributive economic policies are the correct way forward there. “interesting” jobs is a good point too! Too many see increasing the number of jobs as a positive thing without looking at the quality of jobs. A province full of call centre jobs will not address the social problems we face.

  • RobG

    What I don’t understand in all these debate is why the question of the regional flag is never discussed?

    The obvious solution to me would be to readopt a regional flag that could be flown on all public buildings every day of the year, with the Union Flag only been flown on the officially designated days?

    I noticed wikipedia has been very well updated on it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Northern_Ireland

    They even include a proposed new NI flag, although I don’t know where they got that one from, except it does look suspiciously similar to one I designed and sent the political parties a good number of years ago (there were two versions, one had the white border, and one was more like the Provincial Flag without the border, but with the 6-pointed star)

    I still have copies of the letters I sent to prove it! Got no reply, obviously…

  • George

    Declan,
    “I agree with your point about the Tricolour – its a republican symbol not necessarily an Irish one.”

    Don’t know about north of the border but south of the border and internationally it would very much be considered an Irish symbol.

  • Kathy_C

    Hi all,

    The union jack is incorrect to begin with. It in it’s design CLAIMS Ireland as part of the uk. Since the Republic of Ireland isn’t part of the uk…then the brits flag should be changed to reflect the current realities.

    Also, I think it’s time to address how the loyalist use the union jack to rub the Irish noses in it….as the saying goes.

    Does anyone think the union flag would be such an issue with the loyalist and the likes of paisly…if it no longer had the cross of St. Patrick and the claim to the Republic in it’s waiving.

    By keeping the cross of St. Patrick in the flag…it allows the loyalist to continue with their superiority stand…in their marches…in their waving of the union jack…and in their demeanor.

    Get rid of the cross of St. Patrick and lots of the flag issue will go too.

  • smcgiff

    ‘Irish nationalism has accepted the constitutional position of Northern Ireland. Accept the consequences of that acceptance, the official symbols remain.’

    This position is 100% correct. NI is, after all, part of the UK.

    But, as has been discussed why the British flag? And I’m glad the above debate has moved on to what a NI flag could look like. Although, could any NI flag be unionist enough for Unionists and still be acceptable to Nationalists. I have my doubts.

    Although, while simply flying the Union flag is technically correct it can only serve to keep nationalists aloof from a functioning NI.

    No answers from me I’m afraid only comment.

  • smcgiff

    ‘No answers from me I’m afraid only comment.’

    My post – smcgiff

    ‘Get rid of the cross of St. Patrick and lots of the flag issue will go too.’

    I doubt it.

    smcgiff

  • Concerned Loyalist

    I agree with Michael Shilliday. The issue here is not the UDA/UFF, UVF/YCV/RHC or LVF flags, but the Union flags. Sinn Fein are striving for the erosion of all British culture in Ulster, and they have pinpointed the issue of flags and emblems as one of their main targets. SF/IRA will not be content until the tricolour is flying from City Hall and lamp-posts the length and breadth of Ulster…that is the long and short of the matter.

  • Kathy C

    Hi all,

    I have a question for all Irish ….does it bother you that the uk through their union jack lays claim on Ireland? As an Irish American it bothers me…..

    The unionist were able to get the Irish to give up their claim to the north…too bad the Irish don’t make the unionist/brits of the uk give up their claim to Ireland in their union jack

  • Kathy C

    Hi all,

    Why has everything I’ve posted been credited to other people….

    I’m Kathy C and have posted about the flag and getting rid of the Cross of St. Patrick and it states that John6 and Michael Shilliday posted what I said….they didn’t…please see if it can be corrected and proper credit given to what I’ve said….thank you….Kathy C

  • David Christopher

    To achieve this, I would argue, we need to start getting real about our common interests – a functioning economy (alongside a top-notch education system all the way to third level) with interesting, well-paid jobs; a world-class police service which provides civic defence, protection and education for everyone; an outstanding health service where waiting lists are a thing of the past. Did any motions at the SF ard-fheis or DUP conference come up with concrete, feasible proposals on such matters? But if people focused on working out how we achieve these concrete outcomes on all our behalves, I think they would come to realize how irrelevant symbolism really is and be more inclined to live and let live rather than restrict any expression of heritage.

    Excellent post Ian, wholeheartedly agree.

    David Christopher

  • David Christopher

    This is posted by David Christopher:

    As a unionist I very much dislike seeing my national flag used, as it too often is, in an overtly offensive “up-yours” way here.

    But the flying of the flag from civic buildings is another matter – as Ian points out, the reason the flying of the Union Flag from civic buildings is of such importance to unionists is that it is a legal and legitimate reflection of Northern Ireland’s continued position within the United Kingdom, secured quite likely for all of our lifetimes as a result of the 1998 Agreement.

    I understand that this is the bit of the Agreement nationalists dislike – but unionists have had to lump a lot since 1998 that they disliked. For many of those of us unionists on the pro-Agreement side, one of the biggest pluses about the deal was that it stabilised NI’s position as part of the United Kingdom.

    The flying of the Union Flag from civic buildings, in accordance with standard practice in the rest of the UK, is part of this reality. Nationalists may want a skin-and-bones implementation of the Principle of Consent – but that isn’t what nationalism signed up to in 1998. By seeking to undermine the reality of NI’s role as a part of the UK, nationalists are undermining the very basis of the 1998 Agreement itself.

  • IJP

    David

    Good to touch base again!

    Starring TV role recently duly noted!

    Declan

    Without wishing to get sidetracked, I would make this party-political point: in 2002 I disagreed with Alliance on most of its bread-and-butter policies, and still disagree with many to be honest. But I voted for the party (and subsequently joined it) because at least it was trying to answer the right questions.

    People may disagree a little with the party’s approach to them, but at least it’s dealing with the issues that count as a priority. If people don’t like how, then they should consider joining and affecting it – you’ve gotta be in it, to win it!

    The point you make about being British and Irish is spot on – too often these are considered exclusive.

    Best wishes,
    IJP

    PS: my ‘submit word you see below’ is ‘march12’ – is Mick trying to tell me something? :))

  • IJP

    It’s very important also, by the way, to note David‘s comments about the nature of consensus.

    Consensus politics is necessary to secure agreement in divided societies. Part of consensus politics is putting up with things you don’t like.

    For too long people in various parties who have accepted that reality have been deemed ‘weak’. Supporting consensus, in fact, requires you to be ‘strong’. The ‘weak’ leaders are the ones who burrow their heads in their tribal ivory tower and pretend reality is something they can ignore.

    IJP

  • Declan

    I have to say, we have all been very well behaved (mostly) in this debate.
    I believe that the wiki posts are mostly a nonsense. The flag was a sectarian NIreland flag and is now defunct. End of story. Using the Ulster flag as a starting point is interesting. Are Unionists comfortable with that?

    “Don’t know about north of the border but south of the border and internationally it would very much be considered an Irish symbol.”

    I agree. That is ideed the case. But as an Irishman from NIreland,I object to that – as should everyone from NIreland should.
    We had no say in the republics constitution or in that flags formation. Why should we accept it?
    One of the main differences between republicans and nationalists is in the difference between a merged Ireland and a better Ireland.
    Nationalists see a better, concentual Ireland: not an extention of the republic.
    I know its a wee bit off-topic (sorry Mick) but who can hold up their hand and say they don’t want the NHS in a United Ireland??

  • David Christopher

    Just a quick anecdote relating to what Declan said earlier about shared symbols – I really disliked (and still do!) the lyrics of the new Irish rugby song – but it is striking to me how it has become popular across the traditions.

    I was having a pint down in Laverys a month or two ago when the people in the back room launched into a loud, inebriated chorus of “Ireland, Ireland, forever standing strong” – now Lavery’s clientele would definitely be more from the unionist side of things, and I thought it was interesting that they were singing that. (and this was before the 6 nations started – definitely no rugby game that day, it was just being sung from the sheer drunken joy of singing!)

  • “Hi all,

    I have a question for all Irish ….does it bother you that the uk through their union jack lays claim on Ireland? As an Irish American…”

    WOAH.. You should have stopped there ‘buddy’.

    “it bothers me…..

    The unionist were able to get the Irish to give up their claim to the north…too bad the Irish don’t make the unionist/brits of the uk give up their claim to Ireland in their union jack “

    Part of Ireland is still part of the UK so there’s no reason not to have the cross of St Patrick on the flag.

    Since republicans don’t seem to recognise the cross of St Patrick anyway, they’re in no position to complain about its inclusion on the union flag any more than unionists have a right to complain about the orange in the tricolour.

  • DK

    Beano,

    I’m new to these whacky internet terminologies, but isn’t what KAthy_c doing called “trolling” – deliberately inserting a left-field statement to stir up bother. The thread is about flags in NI.

    I quite liked the new NI flag on wikki. However, I also think that the school in Stranmillis and some sports people want a neutral NI flag that consists of a green shamrock on a white background. Anyone else heard of that one?

  • Rob

    I don’t see why, if we go for a new NI flag in a couple of years time should the Assembly be running again, etc., etc., we should have to have a boring, bland emblem? A green shamrock on a white background? Dull, dull, dull…

    This was seen in the PSNI’s emblem, when the NIO concocted their monstrosities they were soooo bland that they were universally derided!!

    While the emblem they chose has it’s faults (too cluttered for a start, and the 6-pointed star would aesthetically look better if it pointed upwards (i.e. like the flag). Must do an alternate version sometime…

    The ancient Ulster Flag and the old Northern Ireland flag, held so dear by both sides, share a similar number of elements and there’s no reason why we couldn’t follow the South African model and have a straight forward merger – retaining historical emblems common to both traditions.

    I do think that the version on wiki isn’t bad (I’ve seen worse..!) but think it would look even better without the white border.

    An even simpler one would just be a red horizontal cross on a yellow background, no star, shield or red hand.

    But until our politicians wake up and actually seriously start discussing a real solution to the flags debate instead of endlessly demanding the flags of two sovereign states fly together, alone, or not at all, then anyone in favour of a new NI flag’s going to be spitting in the wind.

  • DK

    Rob,

    According to wikki the simple red cross on yellow was the emblem of a norman knight. So you’d have an English flag for Northern Ireland!

  • From the pen of PopeBuckfastXVI…

    I disagree with the Shinners request for either equality or neutrality. Like it or not the north-east of Ireland is in the United Kingdom. The Union Flag is the official and only flag.

    I fully support the Unionists on this thread who call for it to be flown on public buildings unaccompanied by the Irish flag.

    I trust that in a future united Ireland we will be able to fly the tricolour with impunity and nobody will complain or ask for the union flag to be flown on any official buildings.

    This in the future is worth more than seeing the old green white n orange flying on Belfast city hall in the interim.

  • PHIL

    DK,

    I think that you’ll find that the Normans were not English, they just ruled England, a bit like the Scot’s do now!

    Phil

  • IJP

    Declan

    At risk of yet another tangent, you raise a very important point there which goes back to my distinction between ‘civic/state’ and ‘national/folk’ identities.

    As one, like many Protestants in fact, who could contemplate voting for a ‘United Ireland’ were the terms right, you have symbolically identified something that too few out-and-out ‘Nationalists’ do. To achieve a ‘United Ireland’ it is not about arguing for a ‘return to the natural scheme of things’, but rather arguing for an equal union of two separate jurisdictions (a novel concept, as it thereby achieves an independent all-Ireland nation-state for the first time).

    I agree that Northerners (regardless of affiliation) had no input into the formation of the Irish State, into its institutions, into its symbols, into anything in fact. So why the loyalty to those institutions, symbols etc?

    The best way, I would argue, is to take an input into the establishment of institutions (power-sharing, cross-border bodies etc) and symbols (e.g. PSNI) in the North, and then see how many people would be prepared to contemplate a merger with the Republic in which everyone has an input.

    This is quite different from the current Nationalist strategy of carving up the North (3 Green Councils, 3 Orange Councils; Irish language signs and Irish symbols like the Tricolour in Catholic-majority areas only etc), seeking input into Irish State bodies in which Northern Protestants have no interest (e.g. Dáil, Irish President etc), and generally causing division (blaming Unionists for absolutely everything). Such things only alienate those Protestants who might take an interest in things all-Irish otherwise. And all it achieves is a ‘Divided Ireland’ – geographically, culturally and politically – hardly a very ‘Irish Republican’ outcome.

    In this sense, symbols are important because they provide a clear indicator as to what people are actually up to!

  • Declan

    IJP, I agree.
    However I think that what you describe is more Sinn Fein than SDLP tactics.
    The SDLP from my understanding is much more focused on cross border cooperation (their new campaign “north south makes sense” shows this) rather than Sinn Feins demands to take seats in the south as Northern politicians.
    With a block vote of about 20%, unionists would be almost certainly crucial to any all-ireland government and could therefore achieve real goals or if desired, bring down the government. This is why a new ireland would be doomed without unionist consent and participation.

  • smcgiff

    ‘With a block vote of about 20%, unionists would be almost certainly crucial to any all-ireland government and could therefore achieve real goals or if desired, bring down the government. This is why a new ireland would be doomed without unionist consent and participation.’

    If we assume that FF and FG never form a coalition then yes it would be very interesting indeed.

  • DK

    IJP,

    Wow – another person like me! I too, would be interested in a united Ireland, but can only see it working with a complete overhaul of the existing structures. New flag, anthem, holidays, curriculum, etc. etc.

    It’s not a debate that has really been started because:

    1. Republicans hold their baubles dear and wish to crush all British symbols – one suspects that would be objective number 2 after a united Ireland is achieved.
    2. Unionists have no interest in a united Ireland (especially with Republicans as the dominant persuaders)
    3. Would the Irish state be prepared for a major overhaul to accomodate a large ethnic minority of 900K (or whatever) British.

    DK

  • David Christopher

    This post by David Christopher:

    The above post was *not* made by me, the commenting system just stuck my name on it.

    For the record I have no interest in a politically “united” Ireland, and have always opposed it – not least because it would result in greater divisions than ever between the actual people on the island and would create a sort of Quebec-style situation of perpetual political conflict where the northern six counties would constantly be a handful of votes away from separating and rejoining the UK.

    (assuming the Principle of Consent would survive the transition to a UI that is)

    I support a stable, pluralist NI firmly within the UK with strong north-south links based on mutual respect and co-operation.

    I suspect this approach would do much more to unite the actual *people* of Ireland in a spirit of amity and respect than any political unity ever could.

    David Christopher

  • Concerned Loyalist

    The “john 9” post of 6:16PM is actually from me, Concerned Loyalist…

  • Rob

    >Like it or not the north-east of Ireland is in >the United Kingdom. The Union Flag is the >official and only flag.

    Then explain how England can fly the Union Jack and St. George’s Cross, Scotland the UJ and tha Saltire, Wales the UJ and the Welsh Dragon.

    The Union Flag is not the only flag – in every part of the UK everyone can fly their regional flag. Why not us.

    (By the way, I’m not including the tricolour there – that’s a national flag for a sovereign state, not a regional flag).

  • Kathy C

    Hi all…….this is posted by Kathy C

    Beano, I’m glad that you stated that part of Ireland is in the uk….because it is afterall…Ireland.

    DK, that you said I answered to cause trouble and was trolling…isn’t true. I was giving my opinion.

    the Union Jack…the flag that flys on gov’t buidlings in NI,,,is what is being dicussed.

    The flag of the uk as we know it today did not come about until 1801 as a result of the Act of Union of 1800. This Act and the flag that followed claimed and included the cross of St. Patrick for Ireland.

    Now fast forward to 1921 when the british and Irish produced the Anglo_Irish Treaty and dominion status was given to the majority of counties in Ireland and it was called the Irish Free State. This was a constitutional monarchy with the king of england having the title king of Ireland.

    Fast forward abit more to April 1, 1949 when the Republic of Ireland Act was enacted and all the power that had been vested to the monarch of england was turned over to the President of Ireland and it became the Republic of Ireland. The monarch and england

    Now…since 1949 the monarch of england and the united kingdom no longer have any authority in the Republic of Ireland…they ceded power and rights to the country thus giving up what they had claimed in 1800 and what the union jack flag of 1801 claim. The cross of St. Patrick that had been put there in 1801 claiming Ireland as part of the union no longer is legally correct after the monarch of england ceded that power to the Irish President.

    Trolling…hardly….discussing the history and legality of the cross of St. Patrick in the union jack…definately.

    submited by Kathy C

  • Kathy_C

    Posted-submitted by Kathy C

    Hi all, can this be corrected…my postings are being credited to other people…my latest above posted by me states that it was done by david christopher…I would like this cleared up if possible and my name attached to what I post…thank you

    Posted-submitted by Kathy C

  • “Beano, I’m glad that you stated that part of Ireland is in the uk….because it is afterall…Ireland. “

    I’m failing to see the relevance of that point, and am inclined to agree that you’re trolling. However even trolls need to eat.

    The St Patrick’s cross in the Union Flag does not “lay claim” to Ireland. Its presence represents the Irish-British citizens of the UK and as such is entirely appropriate.

  • Rob

    Typically, weeks after the discussion, I finally get round to uploading the Northern Ireland flag I’d like to see flying over our public buildings on non-Union Jack days (cos I designed it!!)

    http://img450.imageshack.us/img450/5034/newni5xm.gif