Unionism to come under pressure to respond

Whilst there’s a party atmosphere in Republican west Belfast, there is a strong feeling that the ball is now in the court of the Unionists, not least the DUP. The party’s ‘hard man’ Ian Paisley Junior is leading much of the party’s public countermoves at the moment. He characterises the IRA’s move as phoney decommissioning, and prepares his team for the public and private pressure which is likely to follow:

From Ian Paisley Junior:

Speaking Mr Paisley said, “In the coming days and weeks the resolve of the Unionist people will be tested as never before. Efforts are no afoot to see to it that another act of phoney decommissioning takes place so as the government can insist on establishing a devolved assembly that includes Sinn Fein/IRA in the government of Northern Ireland.

The government, Dublin and Washington must be left with a clear and certain understanding that unionism is resolved to resist having a government made up of bombers, murderers, gangsters, bank robbers or fugitives.

There can be no uncertainty on this. No wavering can be permitted. No mixed messages or ifs and buts allowed. Unionism is mandated to stand united and determined that only democracy can and will prevail.

Last year the DUP laid the foundation for a settlement that would have lasting and certain features. If republicans want to be part of the institutions of the country they must become democratic. They must renounce violence, and eschew all criminal activity. Their words would not be the talisman of their condition rather their actions would be the benchmark by which unionists would judge them.

We have made it clear that we would hold the Prime Minister to his undertaking that unionists would have to be satisfied that the IRA weapons have been destroyed and their structures dismantled and their terror army disbanded. That is why we sought a mechanism to verify in an open, transparent and convincing manner that decommissioning has occurred.

Sinn Fein shunned that effort. Dismissed because republicans claimed it would “humiliate” them. Well in my book IRA murderers need a taste of humility!

They dodged the great and searching question, are they sincere about giving up terrorism and criminality and walking a path of democracy?

They cannot duck and dive that question any longer. The sincerity test has arrived. Sinn Fein/IRA’s sincerity will be judged on how they deal with this matter. The course they have currently chosen is without credibility or standing and will result in unionism dismissing it.

They have demonstrated that they are not interested in convincing unionists of their alleged peaceful intent or of anything approaching sincerity.

• They hold on to the £26 million stolen from the Northern Bank.
• They refuse to hand over killers and rapists from their community.
• They oppose the lawful police and courts system.
• And they are engaged in a so-called decommissioning process that is in secret, without credibility and with no prospect of convincing unionists that all their weapons are destroyed, the IRA disbanded and the criminal empire forsaken.

They think unionists must spare their blushes on the issue of the destruction of terrorism and terror weapons. We will do no such thing!

It is in the interest of democracy for law and order to prevail over terror and chaos I am convinced that only the DUP has both the calibre and resolve to stand up where others have collapsed. But make no mistake about it the pressure will be on at even the slightest suggestion that the IRA has got rid of a bullet case let alone its murder arsenal.

I give this warning to our community that the unionist that forgets the past is destined to repeat the mistakes of David Trimble.

He took Sinn Fein at its word. He gave them not one but three chances in government only to destroy himself and is party. Unionists have no more chances top distribute. The DUP cannot and must not get it wrong on any occasion.

That is why we are determined to do the right thing no matter how long the course we must walk.

Lets face up to it; there is no appetite for a devolved government with Sinn Fein. The Secretary of State knows this to be the case. Unionists know that direct rule offers a less than satisfactory form of government. We want to take decisions that affect the interest of our people but the price of an unreconstructed, terror machine at the heart of government is too high for any democrat to contemplate.

The ball is not in our court. We will live with direct rule; the ball is in the court of others.

The Government cannot ignore us. They have seen in recent days the vacuum they helped to create if they ignore the elected representatives of unionism. The government must do more than have initiatives and honeyed words they must take action on the issues we have put before them.

Sinn Fein/IRA know that they cannot bluff the DUP. Appealing over our heads to Blair, Ahern or Bush cuts no ice with us. Only our people can pressurise us. That is why unionists must stand firm and determined to resist pressure. After all we can only walk a path we are willing to walk.

Sinn Fein/IRA has an opportunity to pass the sincerity test. They can decommission in secret and convince no one of its credibility. Or they can decommission transparently, disband their army, dismantle the criminal empire and give up the proceeds of crime in a way that will expose their evil but will bring it to an end.

Their unwillingness to be open and honest will be the breaking point of any decommissioning process.

The government has a clear duty to recognise that unionists have rights. We have in front of this government matters that they could implement that would demonstrate that they are listening and acting. More importantly the Secretary of State has the power to move on without any more time wasting waiting on the IRA. He can tell the other parties that a better way forward is by those parties moving on without the IRA. Has the SDLP the leadership qualities to jettison the front men of the IRA?

Has the government the will to recognise that the Belfast Agreement is dead and it is now time to move on.”

  • Comrade Stalin

    Mick, did you paste this from a chuckie website or something ? It’s full of little quips about the speech in all-caps.

  • Dick Doggins

    Little Papa P is a funny little imitation of the Big Un……
    Still can`t take him serious though,
    { edited for playing man not ball … moderator }

  • spirit-level

    “The government, Dublin and Washington must be left with a clear and certain understanding that unionism is resolved to resist having a government made up of bombers, murderers, gangsters, bank robbers or fugitives.”
    It could be equally said that nationalists don’t really fancy going into gov’t with a bunch of sadistic, sectarian, apartheid, rascist, KKK style bigots.|
    But nationalists have worked on their prejudices over 35 yrs, and are prepared to embrace unionists as equals:
    which is why GAdams was not being ironic when he said it would be better for some areas of norn iron unionists to vote SFein. As in we’ll look after you better then your leaders.
    “Love your enemies, and do good to them that hate you”.. all the REAL christianity is coming from nationalists.

  • Alan

    *which is why GAdams was not being ironic when he said it would be better for some areas of norn iron unionists to vote SFein. As in we’ll look after you better then your leaders.*

    Oh, have a titter of wit! There are times when it is necessary to separate the inane from the insane, the politics from the polemic and this is one of them. Adams has no more interest in the unionist community than Mr P has in the nationalist community.

    Indeed, they are both determined to maintain their partial hegemony of their respective fiefdoms. Just analyse Adams recent statement and peruse the call for equality for all – carefully balanced with the focus on nationalist discrimination.

    What we are seeing is a divisive scrabbling over the dead body of equality by two mutually exclusive ideologies that are bent on self promotion at the expense of the people whose lives they say they want to improve.

    Just like the Unionists, Adams is saying *Us first*.

  • Gerry Lvs Castro

    Can anyone enlighten me as to why the DUP are expected to go into govt with SF when every single party in the republic is ruling them out until at least the election after next?

  • spirit-level

    Gerry
    It might be a good craic, especially if stormont is televised, sure beats the hell out of the current boredom of no direct talks.
    As a moderate unionist ( you said earlier ) could you enlighten me as to why your people are not putting pressure on Big Ian to get his big fat arse round the negotiating table and get the best deal he can for your community?

  • red kangaroo

    why do the people of northern ireland have such a self obsession. With all the trouble in the world you people who live basically good lives seem happy to throw it all away and keep shitting in your own nest.. Get over it..

  • Brian Boru

    As Edwina Currie said on Let’s Talk a few days ago, an electoral-mandate is what legitimises a party getting into government. It’s called democracy, Ian.

  • red kangaroo

    so brian boru when was the last time Sinn Fein won a mandate?????

  • Comrade Stalin

    “Can anyone enlighten me as to why the DUP are expected to go into govt with SF”

    Democracy ?

  • Brian Boru

    Red, they have a clear mandate to represent the majority of the Nationalist community and as such cannot be excluded from any powersharing arrangement. If the SDLP entered without them it would show their true colours as complicit in excluding Nationalists from power.

  • red kangaroo

    oh sorry B.B. i didn’t realise that so called communities had such a power of veto.. I must remember it, My community in Brisbane Australia didn’t vote for John Howard but he is still our PM.. Where’s my armalite?????

  • red kangaroo

    and how about the last 30 years when the SDLP had overwhelming support from nationalists??? that didnt stop SF/IRA from murdering who ever they felt like.. Where was that mandate???

  • spirit-level

    red we are trying to go forward not backward. Please try and keep up with developments!

  • red kangaroo

    spirit it doesnt look like too many people in NI are interested in going forward when the two largest parties are SF and DUP ( if they look like fascists smell like etc)

  • spirit-level

    red I do hear you, its pretty sad all round.
    Send em to the colonies I say, or teach em to play cricket 🙂

  • Gerry Lvs Castro

    ”Can anyone enlighten me as to why the DUP are expected to go into govt with SF when every single party in the republic is ruling them out until at least the election after next?”

    Question still not answered.

    ”As a moderate unionist ( you said earlier ) could you enlighten me as to why your people are not putting pressure on Big Ian to get his big fat arse round the negotiating table and get the best deal he can for your community?”

    Negotiating what exactly?

  • red kangaroo

    spirit, happy to have them here.. they may even learn to get on with life. After all it’s the only life we got.

  • red kangaroo

    I think the real question is why would anyone want to go into govt with the DUP???????????????

  • spirit-level

    Gerry,
    On your first point:
    You live side by side, you might as well talk to each other, that harms no-one. Neither side can afford to be so precious and “holier than thou”.
    On your second point:
    Negotiating who is going to be ministers of what.
    and how to spend all the lovely money you’ll be getting. Sound good?

  • Comrade Stalin

    “Question still not answered.”

    Gerry, I answered it.

  • spirit-level

    Red and Gerry
    I can’t understand why people are not literally out on the streets weeping about the loss of talent and opportunity in norn iron.
    Never mind wrecking their neighbourhoods:
    Run down housing, run down schools, run down hospitals, terrible drugs and crime figures.
    Does anyone care?
    It can be sorted and transformed, manna from heaven is on its way in the goodie bag;
    but yous have to grasp the nettle.
    Grasp the Nettle.
    In fact a very “british idea” in the old days was to talk to people you don’t like.
    I’d love to hear Adams say to Paisley:
    “Come on lets talk it out, I mean damn it all we are british”..
    surely that would get a wry smile from even the dourest of ulstermen 😉

  • red kangaroo

    lol spirit.. well said

  • spirit-level

    thanks red I’m back in the zone. Cool site isn’t it? I’m sure Mick doesn’t mind us free flowing and exchanging spontaneous ideas now and again.

  • Robert Keogh

    Please, please, please refuse to enter Stormont or even recognise the end of the campaign and disarming. Please.

    The British government isn’t negotiating with the DUP. The DUP doesn’t have the friends in Whitehall the UUP had. The British government learned the lesson of failing to stand up to the workers strike that brought down Sunningdale. This time they won’t repeat that mistake. Why do you think the UDR, RIR, and the other armed arms of Unionism are being taken away or reformed?

    So I reiterate – please don’t enter Stormont, please don’t recognise the end of the campaign, please don’t recognise the decommissioning of the PIRA. Joint sovereignty will do nicely instead.

    Gerry is wrong, unionists shouldn’t be voting SF, nationalists should be voting DUP. As always, Paisley is the best recruiting sgt republicanism has ever had. I wish him a long, long life as head of the DUP.

  • Gerry Lvs Castro

    Question still not answered.”

    Gerry, I answered it.

    No you didn’t Comrade — every ounce of every southern political party screams ‘no sinn fein in govt until at least the election after next’ (what’s that? 5 years? more?) Yet SFs military wing murdered virtually no-one on their side of the border and blew up nothing (apart from nelson’s pillar as far as I’m aware) and yet they refuse to have them about the place.
    So I repeat, why should the DUP, whose constituents have been shot, bombed, maimed and demonised by the provos over decades, wish to go into govt with SF before the dail have them in?
    I’m asking this as a non-DUP supporter — it’s a genuine question.

  • red kangaroo

    Robert what a pathetic rant. I would have thought anyone who cared about their nation would want to bring people on board.

    Why doesnt Northern Ireland have a large body of social democracts in both communities like the rest of the world does???

  • spirit-level

    Robert
    With due respect that’s a cop out.
    “Joint authority will do nicely” … for whom?

  • Gerry Lvs Castro

    ”Negotiating who is going to be ministers of what.
    and how to spend all the lovely money you’ll be getting. Sound good?”

    Yeah that worked great last time — NOT.
    All we got was the usual petty squabbling, petty sectarian decision making and gigantic running costs of a massively over-staffed white elephant. Sack the lot of them and put the money saved (plus the mysterious ‘lovely money’ you mention above)into health & education. God knows direct rulers could hardly make more of a tit of it than the local lads & lasses — thank you Martin & Barbre for scrapping the 11 plus and landing us with a hospital in Enniskillen that should be in Omagh.

  • heck

    Gerry Lvs Castro

    “Can anyone enlighten me as to why the DUP are expected to go into govt with SF when every single party in the republic is ruling them out until at least the election after next?”

    do you really believe them?–if SF got the same share of the vote in the Free State that they get in Norn Iron every party would be begging them to go into coalition. If they get 15-20% of the vote they WILL be in government with FF.

  • red kangaroo

    nobody has answered my question, Why doesn’t NI have social democrats like every other nation. I know the SDLP is a decent party but where is the Unionist equivilant?? Unionism needs a social democratic voice like nationalism has

  • red kangaroo

    heck,,, where is the “free state”?? do u mean the Republic of Ireland? or if u like just “Ireland” but “free state” get real mate..

  • Dave

    Some say that unionism has no leardership I would say this is true (sad as that is).

    The people of Northern Ireland will have true leadership the day they strike out for Independence. No British/Irish government, No United Ireland and No union. The people would be focused on one thing only, an Independent sovereign Country.

    Only this will safeguard their culture and heritage, only this will bring peace. The aspiration of unification by irish terrorists will come to an abrupt end. the Westminister mandrains will have achieved their goal of betraying the people of Northern Ireland to irish Terrorists default. (told to sling their hook)

    For a United Ireland or Independence to work it needs the support of the majority of the people, lets put it to the people lets have a referendum.

    Britain does not want or need Northern Ireland, Northern Ireland does not want or need the Republic of Ireland. What Northern Ireland does need is direction and an aspiration for a Country of their own which will lead them in the same direction with a clear and achievable goal.

    Peace.

    Independence is a viable option lets take it, now.

  • Gerry Lvs Castro

    ”do you really believe them?–if SF got the same share of the vote in the Free State that they get in Norn Iron every party would be begging them to go into coalition. If they get 15-20% of the vote they WILL be in government with FF.”

    Point taken Heck — so let’s all wait until next year before re-convening the assembly.
    That way the DUP will get their ‘decontamination period’, SF will get a chance to show what good boys & girls they are and the rest of us who couldn’t give a monkeys about the assembly can enjoy the relative calm.

  • Comrade Stalin

    “I’m asking this as a non-DUP supporter — it’s a genuine question.”

    Because the future in this country requires a shared coalition government. The RoI isn’t contending with the same sectarian problems we are.

  • Robert Keogh

    red kangaroo,

    how can asking the DUP to do what they have declared they are going to do “a pathetic rant”?

    spirit-level,

    I think it’s a cop out too but there’s nothing I can do about it – it’s up to the DUP. Besides, why should I waste my time (and it would be a waste) to persuade unionism to pursue a course in it’s best interests? Especially when I think the ludicrous course they have is likely to hasten re-unification.

  • Gerry Lvs Castro

    ”Britain does not want or need Northern Ireland, Northern Ireland does not want or need the Republic of Ireland.”

    I suspect if the Brits knew in 1969 what they know now, they’d have shelled out for a mansion in Scotland for every Ulster prod family and saved themselves a fortune.

  • Denny Boy

    “heck,,, where is the “free state”?? do u mean the Republic of Ireland? or if u like just “Ireland” but “free state” get real mate..”

    I believe he means the Orange Free State. You turn left at Natal and it’s the last star before morning.

  • Gerry Lvs Castro

    ”Because the future in this country requires a shared coalition government.”

    But does it REALLY comrade? What exactly did the assembly acheive that direct rule wouldn’t have?
    Would a re-convened assembly be able to stop water charges? Or stop hospitals losing their acute services? They’re really only juggling with the figures they’re given by the British govt.
    Isn’t it more likely to be the usual playground sectarian slug-fest to no great result? Point scoring for ‘our’ side against ‘themuns.’
    With a whopping great expenses bill at the end of the month. I suppose it would keep them off the streets right enough.

  • spirit-level

    Ahh I see the method robert keogh, yes let the dinosaur become extinct. You couldn’t even cattle-prod it into the assembly…
    How clever, I wish him along life too.
    Excellent!

  • heck

    red kangaroo

    and your point is???

    Gerry Lvs Castro asked what I thought was a reasonable question from a unionist point of view, why should unionists share power with SF when free state parties will not?

    My answer was that his premise was wrong. Free state politicians WILL share power when SF gets enough votes.

    I am not averse to a little banter in these posts when people debate (in fact I rather enjoy it!!) but I would hope there would also be some substance. If SF get enough votes in the free state (15-25%) they WILL be in government, they already have enough votes in the occupied six counties of Ireland.

    Agree or disagree? I can’t tell what you think other than you want to argue about names.

  • willis

    GLG

    ”Can anyone enlighten me as to why the DUP are expected to go into govt with SF when every single party in the republic is ruling them out until at least the election after next?”

    Question still not answered.

    Does the Good Friday Agreement allow for Majority rule – No

    Was it adopted North and South by Referendum – Yes

    Is it a treaty between The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and The Republic of Ireland – Yes

    That’s Why

  • Gerry Lvs Castro

    Heck I’ve already answered that one in my 06:34.

  • heck

    Gerry Lvs Castro

    at least you agree that SF should be in government in the occupied north east corner of Ireland(that one’s for red Kangeroo) So it is not a matter of principle!! Then why wait?

    nationalists also have to hold their noses to share power with a bunch of homophobic sectarian bigots.

    After almost ever hue of unionist opinion 00/uup/dup/uvf/uda/ sided with the orange order (KKK for red kangeroo) when they went on the rampage in the last month, talk of a contamination period smacks of another excuse to keep fenians out (for RK).

    By the way I don’t think the DUP will share power–I just wish unionists would be honest as to why.

  • Fermanagh Young Unionist

    By the way I don’t think the DUP will share power–I just wish unionists would be honest as to why.

    Its not a case of them not sharing power with nationalists but more of a case of them not sharing power with SF, the Ulster Unionists tried that and SF failed to deliver. Both the UUP and DUP have no major difficulties sharing power with the SDLP but they now both have suspicion of SF.

    No matter what you think the reality is that no normal politician in Northern Ireland would like sharing power with terrorists. The UU gave them a chance and they screwed up… their loss.

    So come on shut it or at least start talking sensibly

  • Comrade Stalin

    “Its not a case of them not sharing power with nationalists but more of a case of them not sharing power with SF,”

    That’s why there was a long successful powersharing administration with the SDLP. No, wait ..

  • Denny Boy

    Didn’t David Trimble rush to end the happy powersharing when he discovered that SF had “failed to deliver”, ie was running a spy ring in Stormont. No, wait…

    They weren’t.

  • heck

    Fermanagh Young Unionist

    “Both the UUP and DUP have no major difficulties sharing power with the SDLP”

    That is simply not true. They had the chance to share power with the SDLP in 1974 and the UU and the DUP, along with their “terrorist” allies brought that power sharing administration down through violence and intimidation. (With the Rev Doctor at the front.)

    There is a saying “do it to me once shame on you, do it to me twice shame on me”. I have accepted that the majority of unionists (those who voted DUP) don’t want nationalist in government and don’t recognize their aspirations as legitimate.

    Unionists don’t want to share power with nationalists–period. And after the last month anyone who believes it’s because “they don’t want to sit down with terrorists” must be smoking some good UDA crack.

  • jammin

    I hear the uvf sell a better blend of coke, why do you think they now run Garnerville, man.

  • Fermanagh Young Unionist

    Heck,

    That is simply not true. They had the chance to share power with the SDLP in 1974

    I am referring to today’s Northern Ireland not 30 years ago… move with the times will ya.

    I have accepted that the majority of unionists (those who voted DUP) don’t want nationalist in government and don’t recognize their aspirations as legitimate

    Now I doubt anyone in the DUP is as stupid as that, nationalists (sdlp) no problem… republicans (murdering sf scum) big problem.

    Unionists don’t want to share power with nationalists–period.

    Methinks you are taking all this ‘I’m a discriminated nationalist’ stuff too seriously.

    anyone who believes it’s because “they don’t want to sit down with terrorists” must be smoking some good UDA crack.

    Then you’re saying the fact that they (sf) are terrorists and the time they were in govt. they lied up has nothing to do with it but instead it is just Protestants don’t like power-sharing with Catholics… narrow-minded opinion is ya ask me. No matter how much you want that to be the case the fact is at the present time there is no real argument to let SF/IRA into govt. with decent democratic parties.

  • g. washington

    what a load of propaganda and one-up-man-ship. i am a devout loyalist(not a thug, a nazi or an ostrich). the same old thing from the same old people. i think all people in ulster have the right to be governed by politicians who understand and care for our land, nobody expects them to put their morals or principles on the line, just the opposite, we expect them to defend them, thats why we vote, but are we all not sick of ignorant, pompous englishmen with nothing to lose coming over here and trying to unload their shoulder chips on us, or telling us how well of we are compared to their homeland. we can talk all year of one or another parties mandate, or whos right or wrong, but at the end of the day, unless we make our vote mean something and make the politicians on both sides work and responsible for that work, we will always be governed by english twats, and thats that. i would say this to repuplicans, show the protestant people that you can help govern this country without trying to destroy it just for their selfish agenda, and the protestand people will respond.

  • aquifer

    So we are still in the binary bind. The twin evils of irish separatist violence and unionist intransigence, or is moving to IRA insolence and protestant violent intransigence progress? The ethnic tug of war with the British watching the white hankie in the middle to check for fair play and to give a tug at either end from time to time.

    Balls

    It is the responsibility of the British government to set up a veto-proof constitutional system that respects the GFA and to bawl out and then drop a ton of bricks on anyone attempting to subvert it.

    Unionism is clearly incapable of getting an inclusive non-sectarian settlement together, but that is not the point. It is not their job.

    At least Trimble’s reputation as a statesman is secure. He had some idea of how to measure his words and when to stop talking.

  • heck

    Fermanagh Young Unionist

    “but instead it is just Protestants don’t like power-sharing with Catholics”

    That is exactly what I’m and saying and as for your “I am referring to today’s Northern Ireland not 30 years ago… move with the times will ya” all I can say is that the IRA campaign ended a decade ago. If you want to refer back to the bad old days then so can I. (And I hope you don’t try and suggest that a civil servant leaking documents to his elected representative or an alleged IRA member killing someone in a drunken bar fight (horrific though it might be) constitutes a terrorist campaign.)

    I’ll bet you a pint that once the final load of IRA arms are decommissioned unionists will find some other excuse not to share power. Will it be support for the police? Missing victims? Absence of photographs? Orange marches through catholic neighborhoods? I don’t know but it will be something.

    As for the sitting down with terrorists –it is not whataboutery to point out that unionist politicians do it all the time—just not fenian ones.

  • Fermanagh Young Unionist

    all I can say is that the IRA campaign ended a decade ago.

    The people who were leading it then or still effectively leading it now, they also continue to lead SF. The IRA also continues to be involved in criminality.

    once the final load of IRA arms are decommissioned unionists will find some other excuse not to share power.

    It has already been made public that not all the IRA’s arms are to be destroyed and there will be other issues apart from the weapons.

    As for the sitting down with terrorists –it is not whataboutery to point out that unionist politicians do it all the time—just not fenian ones.

    And who would these terrorist politicians be? If you are thinking about David Ervine hes not even worth mentioning or are you on about the Paisley and the Ulster Resistance that is just a weak argument with no real evidence.

  • heck

    “The people who were leading it then or still effectively leading it now, they also continue to lead SF”

    can I resist this????

    no

    The people who were responsible for leading the opposition to power sharing with the SDLP in 1974 “are the people still effectively leading it now, they also continue to lead” . Now you are trying to say that the DUP would happily share power with the SDLP and always would have.

    You are agreeing with me that there will be another excuse for not sharing power with nationalism. IRA arms were never a reason for the end of the GFA –just and excuse.

  • Fermanagh Young Unionist

    The people who were responsible for leading the opposition to power sharing with the SDLP in 1974

    For God’s sake it is 2005, a lot was happening in 1974 which isn’t now, views have changed, people have changed, groups have changed.

    Now you are trying to say that the DUP would happily share power with the SDLP and always would have

    Well this is the first time the DUP have the chance to. They should have no problem power-sharing with the SDLP at the present time. It is irrelevant what whoever thought 30 odd years ago.

    You are agreeing with me that there will be another excuse for not sharing power with nationalism

    Who are you trying to fool here? By nationalism are you referring to SDLP or Sf? There will be no excuse if there is no reason for one. For the umpteenth time Unionists would not have a problem sharing with the SDLP at the present time.

    IRA arms were never a reason for the end of the GFA –just and excuse.

    Then what was the reason???!!

  • Brian Boru

    “No matter what you think the reality is that no normal politician in Northern Ireland would like sharing power with terrorists. The UU gave them a chance and they screwed up… their loss.

    What about former terrorists? Heard of Nelson Mandela, whose ANC bombed South Africa to end to Aparteid regime there, and whom the Tories called a “terrorist” for years and called for him to be hanged?

    It is not for Unionism to choose the leaders of Northern nationalism. Michael McDowell, the Southern justice minister normally criticising SF every morning, noon and night has said that the IRA are keeping to their word not to engage in criminality, since the recent statement on ending “all other activities whatsoever”. As such, the question is not one of sharing power with terrorists, but rather former terrorists. Which is different.

  • Fermanagh Young Unionist

    As such, the question is not one of sharing power with terrorists, but rather former terrorists. Which is different.

    That might be a bit difficult to explain to relatives of people who have been blown to pieces or shot in the street by ira/sf terrorists.

    Might sound like this:

    Now Mrs ***** when the IRA murdered your husband and son it was a long time ago and now these people have promised to be nice and not kill anyone anymore so we are giving into them and all their demands> Hmmmmm I doubt it would go down well.

    No Unionist trusts the SF/IRA anymore, any who did lost all hope in the few years after the GFA.

  • heck

    Fermanagh Young Unionist

    a lot has happened since the IRA ceasefire.

    If you can go back one decade to justify unionists not sharing power with nationalists surely I can go back 3 to explain the reasons. In both cases the people involved are actors in the current drama. Ian Paisley and Gerry Adams.

    “Then what was the reason???!! ” simple–unionists will not allow anyone who espires to, and will work toward ending British rule in ireland, into government. It does’nt matter if they seek to do this by non violent means or through armed struggle.

    Endless direct rule is preferable to that. This was the lesson from the last election.

  • Fermanagh Young Unionist

    a lot has happened since the IRA ceasefire.
    Such as..?
    both cases the people involved are actors in the current drama. Ian Paisley and Gerry Adams.
    They both played very little role in politics 30 yrs ago, granted Paisley liked to stir up trouble but it ended there. The main players back then were Faulkner and Gerry Fitt, both seen as moderates.
    –unionists will not allow anyone who espires to
    Aww don’t be so paranoid, that has to be one of the most pathetic things I have ever read on Slugger

  • Brian Boru

    “Now Mrs ***** when the IRA murdered your husband and son it was a long time ago and now these people have promised to be nice and not kill anyone anymore so we are giving into them and all their demands> Hmmmmm I doubt it would go down well.”

    Indeed. However you neglect to mention that hundreds of Loyalist terrorists were also released and most Catholics, judging by how they voted in the GFA referendum accepted this as a price for peace.

    The Unionist community has actually gotten peace except from terrorists and their own side. You say “non Unionist trusts SF/IRA”. The UDA and UVF hasn’t decommissioned one bullet but the Unionists seem to trust them judging by how the DUP talks to convicted Loyalist terrorists on the parades issue. Hypocrisy.

  • Gerry Lvs Castro

    ”nationalists also have to hold their noses to share power with a bunch of homophobic sectarian bigots.”

    Hilarious stuff heck. In my ignorance, I assumed the vast majority of nationalists were roman catholics — has the deeply homophobic RC church suddenly changed it’s policy?
    Sectarian bigots — obviously I was also hallucinating when PIRA carried on a 30 year sectarian murder campaign.

  • Comrade Stalin

    FYU:

    “I am referring to today’s Northern Ireland not 30 years ago… move with the times will ya.”

    I’m trying to understand why you think that makes any difference. You are claiming that unionists have no problems sharing power with non-paramilitary nationalists – it’s a lie. If unionists had no such problems, then why hasn’t there been a powersharing government before now ? Why do you think you can get away with peddling these lies ?

    “the fact is at the present time there is no real argument to let SF/IRA into govt. with decent democratic parties. “

    Decent democratic parties ? In Northern Ireland ? Would you like to name a few ? I can’t think of any, with the possible exception of SDLP and Alliance. Are the DUP’s old links to Ulster Resistance and the Third Force decent enough for you ? As Diane Dodds said the other night, the UVF are part of your community and you just have to deal with it. But don’t try to call it decent or democratic, it makes you look like a hypocrite.

    “The people who were leading it then or still effectively leading it now, they also continue to lead SF. “

    And remind us, who is leading the DUP now ? Who was leading the DUP in 1970 ?

    “The IRA also continues to be involved in criminality. “

    So is the DUP’s friends in the UDA and UVF, who the DUP sit with on the North/West Belfast Parades Forum. Does that mean they should be put out of government and boycotted by government ministers ?

    “For God’s sake it is 2005, a lot was happening in 1974 which isn’t now, views have changed, people have changed, groups have changed.”

    What’s changed ? Unionists are rioting trying to stop political change. The unionist leadership doesn’t want to share power with taigs. If it isn’t one reason, it’s another. What’s different about it ?

    What a thoroughly depressing thread this is. When are unionists going to accept responsibility for paramilitarism that grows right under their feet and stop these silly lectures about democracy and peaceful means they refuse to practice themselves ? If everyone set bit their tongue and set aside this crap for just five minutes, there’d be no limit to what we could achieve.

  • Headmelter

    GLC,

    “Hilarious stuff heck. In my ignorance, I assumed the vast majority of nationalists were roman catholics — has the deeply homophobic RC church suddenly changed it’s policy?”

    As far as I can remember there were no priests elected at the last election and SF policy certainly does not follow the RC doctrine.

    “Sectarian bigots — obviously I was also hallucinating when PIRA carried on a 30 year sectarian murder campaign.”

    You were obviously blind and deaf for the same period if you didn’t notice the state sponsored murder, collusion and discrimination exercised by unionists and successive british governments, on the nationalist electorate.

    FYU,

    “For God’s sake it is 2005, a lot was happening in 1974 which isn’t now, views have changed, people have changed, groups have changed.”

    Some things haven’t changed as pointed out by C S. But other things have. SF are now the biggest nationalist party, bigger than the SDLP ever were and they are the elected representatives unionists are going to have to talk to. Gone are the days of subserviant nationalists and gone are the days of the unionist veto and dictatorship.

  • German-American

    Writing as an ignorant outsider again: I presume that Ian Paisley Jr is speaking as a (self?)designated attack dog for the DUP–nothing wrong with that, all parties everywhere do this. However I do have a couple of comments:

    First, it’s one thing to acknowledge a concession and then immediately turn around and demand further concessions, as SF has apparently done many times. (For example, see SF comments on the disbanding of the RIR.) This is clearly intensely irritating to unionists, and I can’t blame them in the least; however it’s also understandable (if not always excusable) as an aggressive pursuit of one’s political goals.

    However it’s quite another thing to deny that something is even a concession in the first place, and to attempt to carry on as if nothing whatsoever has happened or is going to happen, as seems to be the DUP strategy regarding “phony decommisioning”, “so-called decommissioning”, etc. To an outside observer such a strategy would seem to run the risk of damaging the credibility of the DUP much more than that of “SF/IRA”. It potentially makes the DUP look like a party willfully denying reality, and if I were a serious politician (like Tony Blair or Bertie Ahern) I’m not sure how seriously I’d take such a party.

    Second, whether one likes it or not, SF does appear to have a long-term political strategy (some of which is stated up-front and some of which can be inferred), and it can also be inferred that SF has fall-back positions if parts of its strategy don’t work out as planned, or as early as planned. (For example, lobby for de jure or de facto joint authority in the absence of devolution.)

    It’s not clear to me what the DUP’s long-term political strategy is, or whether they actually have one at all. If I had to guess, based on Paisley Jr’s comments the DUP’s strategy seems to be either to wait for a future UK government more inclined to put SF in its place (“We will live with direct rule; the ball is in the court of others.”) or to make not-so-veiled threats of unleashing violence against the present UK government (“The Government cannot ignore us. They have seen in recent days the vacuum they helped to create…”).

    But the first strategy may never pan out (and in any event leaves the DUP reacting to events not driving them) while the second is in my opinion totally self-defeating, since to my knowledge unionism has no influential outside supporters willing to overlook or even romanticize loyalist violence in the way that many in the US and elsewhere were willing to do for republican violence. So where does that leave the DUP?

  • Dan

    As annother outsider I agree with German-American.

    SF seems to have a clear strategy and a fall back position, it wants a United Ireland but has accepted the principal of consent so wants a Northern Ireland where it has major influence.

    DUP seems to want to go back to majority rule Stormont circa 1965, they have been consistant being against GFA etc, but they seem to have beleived their own propaganda, “if we defeat David Trimble, Blair will have to listen to us”. Sorry Blair may have listened to Trimble because he did not want Paisley to win, he activly wants Paisley to fail, why should he help him in any way.

    I saw the Lets Talk thing the other day with Irene Dodds hypocritically saying loyalist paramilitaries are part of the community and we have to accept them, but at the same time we will never go into government with SF.

    What did make me laugh was Edwina telling the audiance that the rest of the UK would be shocked to find out NI residents pay neither Council Tax nor privatised Water charges. That is the unionists problem but they will not accept it, the rest of the UK will support them to keep UK citizenship and keep the border if they want, but will not waste money or blood on arguments over symbols or marches.

    IP Jnr seemed to be threatening we will wait till our friends in the Tories come back or we will create a terrorist campaign of our own.

    1. The Tories have moved on like the rest of GB and they are not coming back anytime soon anyway, 2009 Brown wins, 2013 Brown or Brown Lib Dem coalition, 2017 Tory leader finally wins, meanwhile IRA have been on ceasefire for 20 years disarmed for 10.
    2. We will create merry hell in the streets and if nescessary create a terrorist campaign of our own. When Michael Collins became the establishment he was viscious against the IRA in the civil war, when Dev became the establishment same conversion he hung old comrades, lets look forward 10 years with IRA disarmed, SF accepts PSNI and policing board. If there are riots PSNI deal with it with full backing from GB, if loyalist terrorists start boming London in the post 9/11 and 7/7 world, where on the planet would they get sympathy from? Ian Paisley and the Iranian Ayatollah’s!!

  • Oxymoron

    How many times can Unionists change the goal posts and still claim that it is Sinn Fein and the IRA that are the obstacles to progress?

    What concessions would Unionists like to see?

    And then which ones after that?

  • Comrade Stalin

    German-American, I agree that Sinn Fein has been able to cleverly extract additional concessions from the political process. The reason they have been able to do this is because unionists refuse to sit at the negotiating table and state their demands, and instead SF have been able to deal directly with with a British government impatient on waiting for unionists to get with the programme. On the question of the RIR, the British government have no interest in keeping them running any more than Sinn Fein do, so it is an easy decision. It’s another one of those matters where the unionists simply never learn – if they refuse to play ball then the British will simply go over their heads and push forward. Mark my words, that is exactly what will happen if/when the DUP fail to respond positively to the IRA’s disbandment.

    The unionists must come to talks and start demanding concessions of their own and counterbalance Sinn Fein’s requests. It’s not sufficient to simply demand that Sinn Fein receive nothing. Instead the impact of these matters must be decided on a partnership level. Otherwise Sinn Fein’s influence will continue to expand unchecked. By failing to attend talks with Sinn Fein, unionists are essentially neglecting their duty as political leaders.

    Decommissioning, well it’s a great one. I remember in the earlier days where the IRA said “there’s no way we’re doing any disarming” people like Jeffrey Donaldson popped up to say that initially, there need not be full disarmament, and that a token act would be sufficient to show that republicans were serious about the process. That token act took place a few years later and, surprise surprise, Jeffrey was unimpressed. The republicans actually predicted that this would happen all along. I think that is the way things take place – the republicans predict it and the unionists play out those predictions.

    I think unionists are heading for another disaster. We’ve got three independent disarmament committee members, including a respected Canadian general, lined up along with a priest and a minister. That panel is going to be backed to the hilt by the British, American and Irish governments. And the DUP are going to sit there and say that all of these people are in league to hide the fact that the IRA are still armed from the unionist people. It’s going to be another bad day for unionism I’m afraid, and it will be entirely of their own doing.

  • Fermanagh Young Unionist

    Brain Boru,

    Indeed. However you neglect to mention that hundreds of Loyalist terrorists were also released and most Catholics, judging by how they voted in the GFA referendum accepted this as a price for peace

    The whole issue of prisoner release was a hard pill for everyone in NI to swallow for it related deeply to both sides, however in recent times it has been shown that the original terms set out in the GFA relating to prisoner release or now worth nothing for the terrorists were released under the agreement they’d keep their heads down but of course like everything else the Labour govt. conveniently like to flout this… Sean Kelly.

    the Unionists seem to trust them judging by how the DUP talks to convicted Loyalist terrorists on the parades issue. Hypocrisy.

    That is actually quite an important issue ya know, the DUP can’t help if loyalist paramilitaries play an influential role in these areas…. there is a difference between that and the fact that Republican Political leaders are still leading PIRA.

    Comrade Stalin,

    I’m trying to understand why you think that makes any difference

    ….. because it is would be imprudent to say that Unionism has not changed over the last 30 years.

    Decent democratic parties ? In Northern Ireland ? Would you like to name a few ? I can’t think of any, with the possible exception of SDLP and Alliance. Are the DUP’s old links to Ulster Resistance and the Third Force decent enough for you ?

    UUP, DUP, SDLP, ALLIANCE…. The Ulster Resistance was set up in late 1986 and DUP broke links in 1987…. hardly the crime of the century. Its not exactly comparable to Marty’s and Gerry’s roles in PIRA now is it??? And what is undemocratic about the UUP?

    As Diane Dodds said the other night, the UVF are part of your community and you just have to deal with it

    Well personally they are not part of ‘my community’. They may have influence in parts of Belfast were the are peddling drugs to 12 yrs old on street corners but in effect they are more of a criminal gang than paramilitaries.

    And remind us, who is leading the DUP now ? Who was leading the DUP in 1970 ?

    Paisley and Paisley, if you didn’t catch on the first time I was on about the PIRA.

    So is the DUP’s friends in the UDA and UVF, who the DUP sit with on the North/West Belfast Parades Forum. Does that mean they should be put out of government and boycotted by government ministers ?

    As I have already said there is a difference between parade forums and Government… davey Ervines not exactly got much of a chance of becoming deputy first minister now has he!

    Unionists are rioting trying to stop political change

    Well firstly it’s a few unionists rioting and their not against political change but instead political alienation…. big difference.

    I agree that Sinn Fein has been able to cleverly extract additional concessions from the political process. The reason they have been able to do this is because…

    ….. Is because we’ve go a pitiful excuse of a government, nothing else.

    Headmelter

    Gone are the days of subserviant nationalists and gone are the days of the unionist veto and dictatorship

    And here are the days were nationalists are represented by murderers and so long to the days were Unionists had an actual say in our own politics. Its sort of ironic don’t you think that Blair has a whole big agenda about freeing countries from terrorism and undemocratic rule while just right next door is dying to get people who blew up his own British soil for the last 30 years right into Government…. it seriously makes you think about if he has any ethical believes.

    Oxymoron

    How many times can Unionists change the goal posts and still claim that it is Sinn Fein and the IRA that are the obstacles to progress?
    And what is different to Unionist demands now than in ’98? Decommissioning was demanded then and is demanded now… nothings changed.

  • Denny Boy

    FYU,

    When did Paisley decommission his Third Force? Any witnesses, (genuine) churchmen or otherwise?

    As far as I’m concerned, this shadowy group is as active as it ever was, and we saw it in action before, during and after the Whiterock violence.

    Therefore, until I see signs that Paisley and crew have opted for democratic means, he and his party will remain for me DUP/TF.

  • Brian Boru

    Fermanagh Young Unionist, there have already been a number of acts of decommissioning by the PIRA, confirmed by General John de Chastelain. Unless you are calling him a liar of course, for which is there is no basis.

    “The whole issue of prisoner release was a hard pill for everyone in NI to swallow for it related deeply to both sides, however in recent times it has been shown that the original terms set out in the GFA relating to prisoner release or now worth nothing for the terrorists were released under the agreement they’d keep their heads down but of course like everything else the Labour govt. conveniently like to flout this… Sean Kelly.

    What were the specific allegations regarding Sean Kelly? Why has Peter Hain refused to tell us this beyond the vague “reinvolved in terrorism” allegations? I have heard that he ended up behind hars recently because a Unionist took a photograph of him trying to calm down Nationalists at a parade and this was then made out to be him trying to stir up trouble at a parade.

    The Sean Kelly argument from Unionists is pathetic considering that the vast majority of the violence since 1998 has been carried out by Loyalists, and yet you don’t hear the DUP or UUP calling for them to be put back in jail. On the contrary, the DUP is saying that they are “part of the community” whom they have to deal with. This is total hypocrisy.

  • Brian Boru

    I have read in a newspaper that the Loyalist groups are saying they will “never” decommission. This adds to the hypocrisy of the DUP in cuddling up to them.

  • Denny Boy

    “I have read in a newspaper that the Loyalist groups are saying they will “never” decommission. This adds to the hypocrisy of the DUP in cuddling up to them.”

    … and furthers my belief that the party is still inextricably linked to terrorists.

  • heck

    From what I am reading it appears that the final round of decommissioning is complete. I would like to think that this means the unionist politicians will have the GFA up and running again next week–but I doubt it.

    I hope I am proved wrong but I have come to the conclusion that IRA arms were never the issue just an excuse. There will me more excuses and complaints from unionist politicians,

    That last election convinced me that the unionist community just doesn’t accept nationalists as equals and will not want them in government.

    Go on FYU prove me wrong. I hope you do. We will see next week.

  • Comrade Stalin

    …. because it is would be imprudent to say that Unionism has not changed over the last 30 years.

    List some changes in unionism. By that I mean changes in outlook, rather than changes in the personalities running it.

    The Ulster Resistance was set up in late 1986 and DUP broke links in 1987…. hardly the crime of the century.

    The Ulster Resistance was neither the first nor the last time that the DUP has associated with armed organizations. But the direct associations themselves are one thing; the way DUP politicians have trouble condemning loyalist violence is another. Ruth Patterson publicly refused to condemn the rioting a few weeks ago, and when she was asked to condemn loyalist violence on a UTV interview she hesitated for several seconds.

    Unfortunately we have come to the point where words are no longer sufficient; actions are required to prove to democrats that the DUP has completely separated itself from ever associating with violent organizations again. Do you think we are likely to see any action on this front ?

    Its not exactly comparable to Marty’s and Gerry’s roles in PIRA now is it???

    Is using violence or supporting violence OK as long as it does not exceed the level of violence which came from the IRA ? Is there an acceptable degree to which parties such as the DUP may flirt with armed movements or associate with armed organizations ? Perhaps you could let us know. Perhaps we could inform the republicans that provided they keep to a level of violence below that of loyalists, they can expect to be friends with the DUP. What do you say ?

    And what is undemocratic about the UUP?

    The links it maintains with paramilitarism, with seats on the Loyalist Commission and a long history of indirect association with armed loyalist groups. Right now, today, the UUP and the PUP/loyalist independents on Belfast City Council share the same whip. The UUP has voted for either a loyalist Lord Mayor and a deputy Lord Mayor three times within the past ten years, despite the shaky ceasefires, apparent lack of commitment to exclusively peaceful means and absence of decommissioning. David Burnside has been involved with secret talks with loyalists on and off over the past number of years. Reg Empey justified the recent rioting on the basis that unionists were being ignored.

    Well personally they are not part of ‘my community’. They may have influence in parts of Belfast were the are peddling drugs to 12 yrs old on street corners but in effect they are more of a criminal gang than paramilitaries.

    I’m glad to hear that is your view, but unfortunately it looks like you’re in a minority. The overwhelming majority of unionists vote for either the DUP or UUP, and history has shown us that unionists do not get punished electorally whenever they associate with paramilitaries.

    As I have already said there is a difference between parade forums and Government…

    What difference ?

    It’s very convenient how unionists decide when it’s okay to talk to paramilitaries and when it is not, don’t you think ?

    davey Ervines not exactly got much of a chance of becoming deputy first minister now has he!

    If he did, the DUP and UUP would be there to support him into power. That is the whole point here. Unionists do not spurn loyalists; they help them out. See Belfat City Council or Larne council as a case in point where loyalists have been promoted into positions of power through the votes of unionist politicians.

    Well firstly it’s a few unionists rioting and their not against political change but instead political alienation…. big difference.

    The political alienation is a symptom of their opposition to political change. The rioters and their supporters said right on TV interviews that they were annoyed about the changes to the RUC, the disbandment of the RIR and the dismantling of watchtowers. If those changes had not taken place it is logical to assume they would not be rioting.

    And here are the days were nationalists are represented by murderers and so long to the days were Unionists had an actual say in our own politics.

    Unionists have not had an actual say in their own politics since 1972. Didn’t you notice ? Several attempts have been made so that unionists, in concert with nationalists, can govern their own affairs – but unionists closed down each and every one and are presently resisting the establishment of the next one. Whose fault is that ? Get with the programme – you are not going to get Stormont back. The only way you can have a say over your own affairs is as part of a powersharing administration. Deal with it.

    And what is different to Unionist demands now than in ’98? Decommissioning was demanded then and is demanded now… nothings changed.

    The agreement mentions complete decommissioning and a complete end to all violence. It is likely that this will now be achieved, but now that that likelihood has come into view, unionists have decided that it is insufficient. That has changed quite considerably.

  • jen

    Hello –

    I’m doing a research project on the troubles and I have had quite a bit of anecdotal information indicating that the RUC/Brits succeeded in intercepting major bombing attempts by extracting info from provo/loyalist suspects in custody who knew about the bomb’s whereabouts – sometimes with only hours to spare. Civilians were cleared from these areas prior to these explosions.

    If you know of 2 to 3 such incidents, would you be good enough to tell me where they happened and a rough date, so that I can cross-reference on Google and obtain more in-depth info.

    Thanks very much!

  • Fermanagh Young Unionist

    Denny Boy

    When did Paisley decommission his Third Force? Any witnesses, (genuine) churchmen or otherwise?

    He didn’t decommision ‘his’ TF but instead cut all links with it.

    As far as I’m concerned, this shadowy group is as active as it ever was, and we saw it in action before, during and after the Whiterock violence.

    Hmm ya sure? I didn’t here Gerry calling for Paisleys arrest… so who alls in it these days…. 13 yr olds don’t count.

    Therefore, until I see signs that Paisley and crew have opted for democratic means, he and his party will remain for me DUP/TF.

    Lol. So you’re saying Papa doc and Robinson are still secretly leaders of a well armed terrorist organisation?

    Brain Boru

    Unless you are calling him a liar of course, for which is there is no basis

    Im doing no such thing for I have no idea whether there has been some or not, the point is the RA are still armed up to their necks in AK’s and semtex etc. Who knows how much more weaponry they have gained since the last act of decommissioning

    What were the specific allegations regarding Sean Kelly?

    The reason, whether you like it or not!

    Heck

    I would like to think that this means the unionist politicians will have the GFA up and running again next week

    Id like to think so too but some how it’s unlikely.

    I have come to the conclusion that IRA arms were never the issue just an excuse

    So Davy Trimble went to all that trouble knowing that he would stop it all after a while just because he doesn’t like Catholics… Wise up!

    That last election convinced me that the unionist community just doesn’t accept nationalists as equals and will not want them in government.

    The last election convinced me that the majority of Unionists now distrust SF/IRA more than ever, unfortunately the UUP lost votes when the IRA/SF failed to deliver what they promised.

    Comrade Stalin

    List some changes in unionism
    It has become more tolerant… post GFA. They now recognise that it is in everyone’s benefit if they share power with democratic parties.

    Do you think we are likely to see any action on this front ?

    Id like to think so but realistically what power or influence do the DUP have in regards to the UVF or UDA… probably as little as Davy Ervine now has.

    Is there an acceptable degree to which parties such as the DUP may flirt with armed movements or associate with armed organizations ?

    No. But I am talking before 1994. Comparing Paisley and his role in the UR and Gerry’s role in PIRA is like comparing a flea to a Lion.

    The links it maintains with paramilitarism, with seats on the Loyalist Commission and a long history of indirect association with armed loyalist groups.

    But come on… being a member of a group that is trying to help generally sound minded law abiding discriminated Protestants is hardly the same as the 2 main men in SF also being the 2 main men in PIRA. Are you honestly saying the UUP are undemocratic due to the links it had with the 1912 UVF… the British Government weren’t complaining when they were being sent out in their thousands at the Somme.

    Reg Empey justified the recent rioting on the basis that unionists were being ignored

    I doubt he was justifying it but instead trying to give reporters the view of the loyalists/unionists concerned.

    It’s very convenient how unionists decide when it’s okay to talk to paramilitaries and when it is not, don’t you think ?

    Well say what you want but sitting on parades forum with a few local UVF men in an attempt to help the local community is different than sitting in Govt with men like Marty in charge of our youth’s education….

    See Belfat City Council or Larne council as a case in point where loyalists have been promoted into positions of power through the votes of unionist politicians.

    Well just to clarify this: these loyalists are they loyalist paramilitaries or just locals who like to call them loyalist such as some Catholics call themselves Republican.

    If those changes had not taken place it is logical to assume they would not be rioting.

    Change the word ‘changes’ to concessions to terrorists, then your point of view might then change

    Unionists have not had an actual say in their own politics since 1972.

    They’ve got even less say now.

    It is likely that this will now be achieved,

    Only time will tell, here is a question: when it is talked about decommissioning are they referring to the Northern PIRA or the whole Islands PIRA? Would it not be slightly difficult to monitor decommissioning in the republic?

  • Denny Boy

    FYU

    “So you’re saying Papa doc and Robinson are still secretly leaders of a well armed terrorist organisation?”

    You’re saying they aren’t? 1-1, I think.

  • Fermanagh Young Unionist

    You’re saying they aren’t?

    Yes, quite clearly

  • Denny Boy

    FYU

    “You’re saying they aren’t?

    Yes, quite clearly”

    What, quite clearly they aren’t, or you’re saying quite clearly that they aren’t? 😉

  • willie

    Decomissioning has taken place, according to RTE.

    Thats that done and dusted.

    Now for the unionist terrorists guns.

  • Fermanagh Young Unionist

    Eh??

    This is getting while confusing,

    They aren’t as in they now hold no position what so ever in Ulster Resistance if it even still exists

  • Denny Boy

    FYU,

    As you know, nothing is ever clear in Ulster – not even IRA decommissioning if you’re Ian Paisley.

    So how can you be sure that Paisley holds no position in either UR or TF? And how can you be sure that neither organization still exists?

  • Fermanagh Young Unionist

    So how can you be sure that Paisley holds no position in either UR or TF?

    Because he is something like 80 yrs old. And can you realistically see Paisley keeping a thing like that out of the press for 19 yrs! I doubt not.

    how can you be sure that neither organization still exists?

    I can’t be sure but I also can’t be sure the tooth fairy doesn’t exist……..

  • Denny Boy

    FYU

    This may seem like a game to you but I assure you it is not.

    If you’ve been following the posts of nationalists on this and other threads, you’ll have noticed that I and several others are concerned about both the UUP and DUP’s unholy alliances with unionist terrorists aka loyalists.

    Our concerns are similar to those of unionists who are/were uneasy with Sinn Féin’s position. I mentioned clarity because the unionist position to violence is becoming increasingly unclear; the disgraceful scenes in Whiterock and Paisley’s inability to champion the cause of his constituents in Ahoghil make me and many others very uneasy.

    Unionists have always taken to violence as a weapon of repression. Have we any guarantees that they have moved on? The IRA have decommissioned. Now it’s up to you lot to take the gun out of Ulster politics.

    Am I being clear now?

  • ulsterman

    So we are talking democracy. SF have never won an electoral mandate in Ireland. Even in 1918 when there was widespread fraud and intimidation SF came nowhere 50% of the vote. There is every good chance that a DUP, SDLP and Alliance coalition could come out of this.

    SF have a long way to go before they can become ministers in Her Majestys Government at Stormont. I doubt it will ever happy.

    Anyway how can a party like SF be trusted?. They tore up every policy they once had. By entering Stormont in 1998 they recognised Northern Ireland. What total hypocrites.

  • aquifer

    No. as republicans engaged in a sectarian terrorist campaign against fellow irishmen they were hypocrites, now they are just revolutionaries and opportunists intent on preventing normalisation in Northern Ireland. The DUP do not counter this strategy, they complement it, aided by their sectarian gangster friends. Maybe Paisleyism is just another local martyrdom operation, sacrificing the available political rewards of this world for the promise of extreme pleasures in the next. Dark chocolate biscuits with darjeeling tea, anyone?

  • Tiny

    Anyway how can a party like SF be trusted?. They tore up every policy they once had. By entering Stormont in 1998 they recognised Northern Ireland. What total hypocrites.

    Posted by: ulsterman at September 25, 2005 08:12 PM

    Surely you mean the DUP

  • Comrade Stalin

    It has become more tolerant… post GFA. They now recognise that it is in everyone’s benefit if they share power with democratic parties.

    Provide evidence to support this assertion either in terms of unionism’s “tolerance” (?) or of unionism’s support for power sharing – I know of none.

    Id like to think so but realistically what power or influence do the DUP have in regards to the UVF or UDA… probably as little as Davy Ervine now has.

    I’d like to think that Paisley has influence over himself not to hold talks or create alliances with paramilitary groups. Wouldn’t you agree ?

    No. But I am talking before 1994. Comparing Paisley and his role in the UR and Gerry’s role in PIRA is like comparing a flea to a Lion.

    Gerry Adams supported the use of violence and encouraged others to use it. Ian Paisley supported at the very least the use of the threat of violence – try asking him to condemn the UWC strike – and encouraged others to use it. What’s the difference ?

    But come on… being a member of a group that is trying to help generally sound minded law abiding discriminated Protestants

    Is that the best justification you can come up with for elected representatives to talk to unelected murdering paramilitaries ?

    Are you honestly saying the UUP are undemocratic due to the links it had with the 1912 UVF

    No, I’m saying the UUP is undemocratic due to it’s modern-day links with loyalist paramilitarism including the UVF and the UDA.

    I doubt he was justifying it but instead trying to give reporters the view of the loyalists/unionists concerned.

    Isn’t it easier just to condemn it ?

    Well say what you want but sitting on parades forum with a few local UVF men in an attempt to help the local community is different than sitting in Govt with men like Marty in charge of our youth’s education….

    Explain to me how talking with active drug dealing terrorists helps the community. Who benefits ?

    Well just to clarify this: these loyalists are they loyalist paramilitaries or just locals who like to call them loyalist such as some Catholics call themselves Republican.

    You tell me. Hugh Smyth was Mayor and then deputy Mayor; Frank McCoubrey was deputy Mayor. As far as I’m aware they’re both loyalists. Smyth is linked to the UVF, McCoubrey is linked to the UDA. Their associations are pretty well known. Smyth was elected as Mayor in a year where there was no UVF ceasefire and no decommissioning. The DUP abstained during the vote and notably did not seem to have a problem serving on council with him. Mysteriously, they walked out of the council whenever Maskey was elected to the same position.

    Change the word ‘changes’ to concessions to terrorists, then your point of view might then change

    I’ll answer this one with a question. Northern Ireland is still in the union. The loyalist paramilitaries demand that Northern Ireland is still in the union. Therefore, is the ongoing existence of the union a concession to loyalist terrorists ? Or is it in recognition of a democratic vote and the will of the people ?

    Only time will tell, here is a question: when it is talked about decommissioning are they referring to the Northern PIRA or the whole Islands PIRA? Would it not be slightly difficult to monitor decommissioning in the republic?

    When the IRA says it is disarming, I assume it means the whole organization. Further, full decommissioning can never be completely proven unless you trust the IRA’s own assessment of it’s inventory – which I would not expect people to do. Unfortunately, all we can do is take the situation on faith.

    Given the close association with criminality that organization has, I’m sure there are ex-members of it who will continue to engage in criminality, intimidation and local law enforcement. The important thing to me would be that SF unequivocally condemn such activity and will support the community working with the authorities to get it stopped. I have nothing more than the same expectations from unionism, but given that unionism seems to prefer justifying loyalist violence rather than condemning it, I am not sure how we are going to get that.

    Denny Boy, you may not have been referring to me, but I object hugely to unionism’s dalliances with armed groups and their denial of same. I’m not a nationalist, I don’t mind the union too much. My main concerns are to do with peace, prosperity and stability. The main obstruction to those at the minute flows from sectarianism and tribalism, and secondarily the ongoing activity of armed groups. I’m personally quite satisfied that the IRA intends to leave the scene. I am not satisfied that the UVF and UDA intend to leave the scene, but worse, I am not satisfied that democratically elected unionist politicians are particularly keen to see those organizations leave the scene.

    ulsterman, I know you’re a troll, but now that the IRA will likely appear to have satisfactorily disarmed, there is no further reason to excl

  • Denny Boy

    Comrade Stalin, the problem (as I believe you recognized in an old post somewhere) is that NI has never known democracy. That brief period when the Assembly was up if not running wasn’t half long enough to familiarize all in Stormont with the democratic system.

    So if NI wishes to learn how it’s actually done, one must look either to Britain or to Dublin. Personally I’d welcome an adoption of Irish democracy, since the British model led to trouble in the island of Ireland in the first place. It also seems to me that the retention of the ludicrous House of Windsor calls the British model into question.

    I hate to be pessimistic but can’t see unionists adopting true democracy in anything like short order; old habits die hard and in Ulster they die harder than anywhere else. The problem is that even the young unionists seem to have picked up the same bad habits that led to 35 years of bloodshed.

    Such scatomas will have to disappear before the nationalist people can trust the “new” unionists to behave better than their predecessors, ie the men of Stormont old style.

  • Headmelter

    FYU,

    “Its sort of ironic don’t you think that Blair has a whole big agenda about freeing countries from terrorism and undemocratic rule while just right next door is dying to get people who blew up his own British soil for the last 30 years right into Government”

    I don’t really care what Blairs agenda is but it would appear he would like to move forward and attempt to remedy some of the problems that have existed here for decades. It’s sad that unionists don’t want to participate.
    Who are the DUPes going to blame this time when they refuse to negotiate or participate in talks? It’s their ‘watch’ and they are already priming the excuses. Sammy the stripper on the politics show yesterday was evidence for that. No matter what SF do it will never be enough for them.

    As for a lot of your other posts you seem to demand understanding from other posters regarding your opinion on the difference between DUP/TF/UR and SF and the IRA. In your world it would seem some animals are equal but some animals are more equal than others.