Love Ulster Organise Rally

According to yesterday’s Newsletter, Love Ulster have ‘penciled’ in October 29th for a march from the Shankill Road to Belfast City centre for what the organisers claim will be a ‘peaceful protest’.

Victims’ groups, Orangemen, loyalist bands and many others from across Northern Ireland will be called to the streets to show the “the deep feelings of Protestant, unionist and loyalist people at this time”.

Also, a second edition of the campaign newspaper is also being prepared by the Shankill Mirror.

  • RJM

    Why didn’t they do this in the first place, tather than shitting in the nest for a week.

  • loose

    They forgot to mention the uvf & uda

  • Alan2

    The government has made it`s nest with terrorists…might as well bring them all in. The more the merrier.

  • Declan

    Alan 2,

    In not so many words, I agree with you. The only road to peace is bring all the protagonists into the political arena. What unionism has to realise though, is that they are not marching back to 1972, or 1912, or 1690. If they fail to reach accommodation with their nationalist neighbours then they will continue to make a laughing-stock of themselves in the eyes of the world, foreign investment will stay away from Belfast (one of the cures for the ‘loyalist depravation’ ill we have heard so much of this week) and they will continue to identify as the people blocking the road to a settlement, to pardon the pun.

  • iluvni

    I hope SS Moore’s ensure thier stock of golf balls are well out of harms way on the 29th.

  • VICTOR1

    They love Ulster as much as Paisley loves the Pope!

  • seve

    The owner of SS Moores was interviewed on tv last night.

    He was talking about politicians getting their act together, presumably before October 29th

  • spirit-level

    I wish the people organising these marches would just pack it in. It really is a sad way to behave. Just come to the table, have a cuppa and let’s have a chat about things, that’s what happens in Eastenders when you’ve got a problem!

  • Denny Boy

    ‘to show “the deep feelings of Protestant, unionist and loyalist people at this time”‘

    I for one am very interested in discovering what those “deep feelings” are. In the past seven days I’ve seen only evidence of the superficial ones, like bigotry, hatred and anger.

  • Comrade Stalin

    Declan : “the only road to peace is bring all the protagonists into the political arena.”

    Sorry but this is total rubbish. You can’t create a country where people pick up a gun or make a fertilizer bomb and suddenly find that they have real power. The only route to the political arena MUST be the ballot box. Anything else, and we’re ruled by unelected paramilitaries who will simply carry on right as they are now, carving up the country into their little drug dealing and racketeering fiefdoms.

    What I do support is all-party talks, where the people elected by these communities can come to the table and tell everyone what is wrong and what needs fixed. What we must all comprehensively reject is efforts by unelected paramilitary organizations to call the shots.

    iluvni, well Gerry Fitt isn’t about to try to sell a stolen snooker cue to a police inspector ..

  • Declan

    Comrade Stalin,

    On another thread, you stated:

    ‘”Distasteful as it may seem, the answer is more likely to come in the form of a loyalist version of Sinn Fein, than a moderate voice.”

    I think that would be an excellent development.’

    That’s exactly what I’m proposing.

  • Comrade Stalin

    Declan, you didn’t make clear whether you expected the protagonists to be brought into the political arena by the ballot box, or other means.

  • Disgruntled

    There is only one man who could possibly fit the bill and i feel could put the unionist position, that man has got to be David Ervine. Whats your views on him Comrade and Declan ?

  • Comrade Stalin

    disgruntled, I see him as a pathetic and hypocritical specimen with a foot in two camps.

  • Patrick Brown

    Ervine’s very good at coming across as reasonable, but the problem is he has no power over the UVF. If you ever see him interviewed or appearing on political discussion shows, he talks sense only on subjects the UVF don’t have a stance on. Bring it round to paramilitarism or decommissioning and he takes the UVF line and won’t budge. He doesn’t give the impression that he’s capable of steering the UVF into politics.

  • Comrade Stalin

    Patrick, unionism has at it’s core the belief that it is morally superior to republicans. The failure of the UDP/PUP shows how unionists who say “we’re basically the same as the republicans when it comes to paramilitarism” cannot succeed. Ian Paisley’s success shows how unionists who appear to support violence yet condemn it at the same time seem to do well.

    I think unionists desperately want to believe that their political creed really does have peace and democracy at it’s core, and they’ll vote for anyone who peddles that line.

  • CHindallas

    I think you have that last line right comrade. As a white southerner in the States, my people could say “and liberty and justice for all” and mean it, all the while denying it to blacks. The reason is that when the dominant power structure is giving way, its people think that pay-back is going to be hell when the blacks, or in your case Catholics, gain equal footing. The whites here fought toothe and nail to prevent it, but thank God things changed. The South could never rise with segregation because of a lack of investment. We wasted 150 years after the Civil War because we thought the “coloreds” were going to mete out to us what we had given them for 3 centuries. But it never happened. With roast beef and apple pie in your belly, every one just wants to get along. I don’t have any dog in your fight, I can just tell you what we experianced here.

  • CHindallas

    I think you have that last line right comrade. As a white southerner in the States, my people could say “and liberty and justice for all” and mean it, all the while denying it to blacks. The reason is that when the dominant power structure is giving way, its people think that pay-back is going to be hell when the blacks, or in your case Catholics, gain equal footing. The whites here fought toothe and nail to prevent it, but thank God things changed. The South could never rise with segregation because of a lack of investment. We wasted 150 years after the Civil War because we thought the “coloreds” were going to mete out to us what we had given them for 3 centuries. But it never happened. With roast beef and apple pie in your belly, every one just wants to get along. I don’t have any dog in your fight, I can just tell you what we experianced here.

  • CHindallas

    I think you have that last line right comrade. As a white southerner in the States, my people could say “and liberty and justice for all” and mean it, all the while denying it to blacks. The reason is that when the dominant power structure is giving way, its people think that pay-back is going to be hell when the blacks, or in your case Catholics, gain equal footing. The whites here fought toothe and nail to prevent it, but thank God things changed. The South could never rise with segregation because of a lack of investment. We wasted 150 years after the Civil War because we thought the “coloreds” were going to mete out to us what we had given them for 3 centuries. But it never happened. With roast beef and apple pie in your belly, every one just wants to get along. I don’t have any dog in your fight, I can just tell you what we experianced here.

  • Comrade Stalin

    I think there is a fear about the “payback” when there are enough nationalists to create a majority in favour of reunification, and to a certain extent it is justified. I’ve heard many nationalists say things similar to “well, we’ll see how they like it when the shoe is on the other foot”. There are nationalists who a serious about building an Ireland of equals, there are other nationalists who are not.

    However the way to sort this out is talks and dialogue, which unionists pretty much refuse to even consider calling nationalism’s bluff on. Back to the drawing board.

  • CHindallas

    You’re right. The unionists have no reason to talk when they have the Leviathan of the State backing them up, just as the southern states of th U.S. had. It took a Rev. King with his non-violent protests to shame the nation into action. When Protestants and Catholics march peacefully arm in arm in Dublin and Belfast to shame the north to stop the violence, unionist and IRA, will stuff start to happen. Both sides need to look to the US civil rights movement, in my humble opinion. And I’m a white southerner.

  • Moderate Unionist

    Comrade Stalin
    You keep trying to paint unionists as being a cohesive block. This is not the case. Some were and are prepared to work with people from another tradition/background/religion. The majority of us voted for the Belfast Agreement and stuck by it for years, but everybody took peace for granted. Failure to reinforce the centre has taken its toll. There was a crazy idea going round that if you got the extremes in power this would cement the peace deal.

    SF and DUP feed off the sectarian divide, their enemies are those that try to cross it. The extremes have won.

    Northern Ireland will become a gangster state carved up by the various paramilitary groups.

    This will be such a successful model that the Republic of Ireland will probably adopt it in due course, leading to a united Ireland and no bombs in London. Everybody will get what they want, what’s to worry?

  • Comrade Stalin

    “You keep trying to paint unionists as being a cohesive block. This is not the case.”

    I’ve only got the election results to go by, which show a pretty cohesive block down the years. People who voted to stop talks, stop negotiation and stick it up to the nationalists generally won.

    The nationalists are hardly better.

    “Some were and are prepared to work with people from another tradition/background/religion.”

    Undoubtedly, and it’s a pity their hard work could never get endorsed by the unionist electorate. The only thing that has ever won unionist votes has been intransigence and denial – denial that there needs to be talks and dialogue, compromise and bargaining for the future of our shared society; denial that unionism has a few skeletons in it’s own cupboard; and worst of all, denial that unionism must engage or die.

    “Northern Ireland will become a gangster state carved up by the various paramilitary groups.”

    This loyalist rioting seems to have brought a lot of revisionism into play here, even among the more moderate types such as yourself. NI has been a gangster state for decades, this is nothing new. Paramilitarism existed before the GFA and in certain respects was stronger, such as for example the time unionism used it to kill Sunningdale.

    Politicians must swing behind the law and order and the authorities to tackle this problem. But they won’t, and never have. The only way this is going to get sorted out in the short term is pressure from the two governments, and secondly pressure from the electorate.

  • dawgface911

    ” both sides need to look at the us civil rights movement “
    CHindallas, we already went through a very powerfull re-enactment of the us civil rights example many years ago. those civil rights actions exposed an uncredible, repressive, sectarian State, and what followed was along serious war opposing that State.
    you seem to miss, in your appeal for an arm and arm parade down the avenue, that the ira have committed to disarming. and have already disarmed.
    the orange/ royalist/ defenders of ulster are still armed and in their disturbed perspective, smug about never disarming.
    so an arm linking parade with loyalists and republicans, in the spirit of mlk, is very distant wishful thinking.

  • CHinDallas

    Moderate Unionist, You’r right when you say that when the center didn’t hold, things fell apart. It takes real leadership to go up against your own people demanding change. The southerner called such leaders like LBJ a sell-out, a nig*** lover, ect. But the thugs that maintain the old order with violence must be broken. Whether they’re the KKK, Hamas, IRA or paras, they must be delegitamized in the eyes of their own people. Unfortunately, they usually don’t go without a fight.

  • dawgface911

    both sides need to look at th u.s. civil rights movement…

    CHindallas… over here we’ve already re-enacted the example of the civil rights movement many years ago. the response to these actions exposed a repressive, uncredible , undemocratic State. then a long serious war opposing that state happened.

    your idea of an arm and arm link with republicans and loyalists in an mlk spirited march down the avenue, is a far off dream , beyond realistic thinking.

    you seem to miss a point , though, in your lovely march idea, is that the ira has already surrenderd arms, and has committed to more disarmement.
    the orange/ royalist army in contrast, feel inappropriately smug, for their honor in remaining armed. they are dishonest and have no bravery

  • CHindallas

    Dawgface, Maybe not as distant as one might think. When I was a boy in the early 60’s, a black man could be killed here with no repercussions. The Klansman might even be the cop. at my Aunts prot. church, a black family tried to attend a service and there were death threats. Nig*** was used in polite company. Things can change. However, a lot of do-gooders got themselves killed. If the blacks had had guns, who knows if it would have happened or not. Maybe not. I do know that if the unionists don’t stop rioting over perceived threats, Gerry’s gonna come to the states and pass round the plate to all the lillywhites, and off you go again.

  • Tochais Síoraí

    Is there no-one politically involved in the Unionist community prepared to stand up and say what happened over the last week is wrong, completely wrong and those leading it are enemies of Northern Ireland? It may not be be the majority view in Unionism at the moment (or maybe it is if you include those unionists who have no-one to vote for) to espouse this but surely there is an electoral niche for someone to express such views and to give vent to a more positive expression of Britishness in NI?

    I don’t expect Paisley and his ilk to do this but I, perhaps naively, expected more of Empey who is surely going nowhere if he’s just going to be DUP lite.

  • VICTOR1

    Tochais Síoraí No there isn’t, why because the Britishness doesn’t exist! It’s about holding onto a failed past simply because of a fear of the future, a comfort blanket, tattered and torn but what Unionists are used too.

  • CHindallas

    Dawgface, I failed to respond to your last point about the loyalist remaining armed. It must be an ORANGEMAN to stand up and say the param. have brought a stain of dishonor on their people for failing to diarm as the IRA stands down. I may be in over my head here talking about your troubles, and I offer my opinions with the greatest of respect as a distant son of Ireland.

  • Moderate Unionist

    CHinDallas
    “Cowardice asks the question – is it safe? Expediency asks the question is it politic? Vanity ask the question – is it right? There comes a time when one must take a position that is neither safe, nor politic, nor popular; but one must take it because it is right”

    Comrade Stalin
    “The only way this is going to get sorted out in the short term is pressure from the two governments, and secondly pressure from the electorate.”

    The governments are happy dealing with the paramilitary groups. Shame on them.

    The electorate have spoken. They went with the DUP. They are the leaders of Unionism, the current situation and what happens next is their responsibility. The people who voted for them will no doubt be happy.

    We all knew if there were to be winners and losers we would all lose. That is where we are now.

    As for SF/IRA’s ultimate goal, it will be pretty hard to assimilate 1 million protestants that don’t want to be assimiliated and basically have got nothing to lose.

  • cladycowboy

    MU

    ‘As for SF/IRA’s ultimate goal, it will be pretty hard to assimilate 1 million protestants that don’t want to be assimiliated and basically have got nothing to lose.’

    I don’t think every protestant would not want it, as for assimilation, they are already assimilated in Ireland, the removal of the border may be the trigger for rejuvenation of a people on the backfoot for so long.
    If these protestants have nothing to lose, then why the loyalty to a political experiment that in your own words has left you with nothing? Is the border all protestants ‘have’? Don’t they want good jobs and the higher standard of living enjoyed a few miles to the south?

  • CHindallas

    MU, I absolutly agree with that statement. And I think the U.S. must say what is right, not being “even-handed” between the arsonist and the fire-fighter. Might offend Tony though and we, meaning the americans, need him for the little soire we’re throwing, but that’s a digression best left for another day. Stand up moderate unionist everywhere.

  • Moderate Unionist

    cladycowboy
    Don’t they want good jobs and the higher standard of living enjoyed a few miles to the south?

    Nope, we would rather eat grass!

    (BTW don’t expect the southern bubble to last in the face of globalisation. High costs – labour,housing, tourists, no natural resources, peripheral location – lots of problems in the pipeline).

  • cladycowboy

    Moderate Unionist

    The Republic has benefitted immensely from Globalisation and the problems you’ve outlined are the problems that every country will face.

    Still, if some people are happier to eat grass rather than better themselves, why would i bother debating about rising labour costs and suchlike.
    P.S You do realise if the country was united, we’d provide all the grass that can be eaten 😉

  • Peace

    If these people you speak of really “love ulster” so much , why were they burning it last week? are they really as stupid as most of the world believes them to be? surely not?!! lol

  • Brian Boru

    “The electorate have spoken. They went with the DUP. “

    No 33% went with the DUP. 67% didn’t.

  • Comrade Stalin

    Tochas :

    “Is there no-one politically involved in the Unionist community prepared to stand up and say what happened over the last week is wrong, completely wrong and those leading it are enemies of Northern Ireland?”

    Nope, that’s because a lot of unionists – certainly the political leadership – think the violence was inevitable and pretty much justified.

    MU:
    “The electorate have spoken. They went with the DUP. They are the leaders of Unionism, the current situation and what happens next is their responsibility. The people who voted for them will no doubt be happy. “

    If they are happy having voted DUP then what is all this rioting about ?

    “As for SF/IRA’s ultimate goal, it will be pretty hard to assimilate 1 million protestants that don’t want to be assimiliated and basically have got nothing to lose. “

    There’s that mythical 1 million again. Less than half a million people voted for a unionist party in the last election. Why do people keep coming up with this completely made-up number ?

    I’m not a nationalist so it isn’t my job to try to convince people of the benefits of an all-Ireland state. People who want to have a war against democratically expressed consent, as you are implying, have plenty to lose, namely their lives. I reject the idea that the threat of violence should be used to subvert any democratic vote which happens to result in reunification. The fact that a lot of unionists seem to think this sort of threat is normal, including the ones calling themselves moderates, is telling.

    “(BTW don’t expect the southern bubble to last in the face of globalisation. High costs – labour,housing, tourists, no natural resources, peripheral location – lots of problems in the pipeline). “

    Globalisation presents a huge threat to all of western Europe, and the factors you have described apply everywhere. The southern economic boom which started in the mid 1990s has, to date, exceeded everyone’s expectations including my own. Let’s be straight about this, what Northern Ireland needs to regenerate itself is a deep cut in the corporate tax rate to attract quality inward investment that otherwise flies to the other side of the border. That is simply never, ever going to happen while we are part of the UK because it conflicts with other interests in London. In that respect, the union is hurting us, pure and simple.

    So to date, the two arguments you’ve wheeled out for the union are “the UK economy is stronger than the republic and we can leech off it” (not your words, but pretty much the meaning – pathetic I’m afraid) and “if we leave the UK the loyalists will kill everyone” (standing up for peace and democracy as usual). Got any more ?

  • Moderate Unionist

    Comrade Stalin
    Obviously, you don’t think my words are adequate so allow me to use the words of others to substantiate my case on the economy. Happy to deal with other issues in a latter post.

    “But you can’t help wondering how our international trading partners continue to let us get away with what is effectively a beggar-my-neighbour economic policy.”

    One foreign-owned multinational accounted for 10 per cent of Ireland’s total corporation tax in 2003. The company paid €510 million in corporation tax here, the Revenue Commissioners disclosed.
    Here is the link

    and then more from the ICTU

    “The reduction of the rate to 12.5 per cent was a major policy mistake because an industrial/development policy which is based on artificial tax subsidies is not sustainable. It has Ireland leading the race to the bottom in Europe – a race which cannot be won by any state,” Mr Sweeney told CORI’s Annual Social Policy Conference today (20th October, 2004).

  • George

    Moderate Unionist,

    The Daily Telegraph has been saying this Irish economic bubble will burst since 1996 and the Economist since 1999. It is still chugging along with 5% growth, three times the EU and double the UK, forecast for this year and 15 billion in SSIA cash ready to be pumped in in 2006 and 2007.

    It has the second-lowest debt in the EU, the fastest growing population in Europe, over 2 million at work, 70,000 people coming to work here in the last 12 months and full employment.

    In 2005, the head of the ICTU and former Taoiseach Garret Fitzgerald both called for Ireland to actively work to cut its growth rates down to 3 or 4% because we don’t need to be Tigers any more.

    On corporation tax, what is your point? Do you believe Ireland is over exposed? Do you think it is unhealthy to have one firm making up 10%?

    Britain earned some £33 billion in corporation tax receipts in 2000 but by 2003 revenues were down to £29 billion. If anybody should be worried, it’s the UK not Ireland.

    Corporation tax made up less than 16% of tax revenue in the Irish Republic in 2004 and is expected it will make up 16% of tax revenue in 2005 and 2006.

    In fact, corporate tax revenue has risen from 5 billion in 2003 to an expected 6.3 billion in 2006. So Ireland is holding its own at the moment and increasing its revenues. Sure it is not going to stay like this forever but that’s life.

    How is Britain in a better position with dropping revenues and a 30% corporate tax rate?

    Also, the real hidden tax is borrowing and, although not in the Euro Growth and Stability pact, the UK has breached the 3% budget deficit in the last two years.

    80% of the jobs created in the UK last year were with public money. If I was looking for bubbles, I’d be looking there myself.

  • Moderate Unionist

    George
    Ireland has an unfair competitive advantage which is only tolerated by the EU because Ireland is so small. Germany, France and the US are extremely concerned about situation and the ascesions states such as Estonia now offer co-operation tax of 0%.

    Ireland is siting on an economic time bomb and because of the inflationary execesses is going to have one heck of hangover.

    You may reject forecasts of economic demise because they haven’t happened yet but that doesn’t mean they won’t. Look at Japan (at one stage they were going to take over US) 15 years of stagnation.

    Ireland has few natural resources, low levels of R&D, infrastructure deficits in Health, Education and Energy, rapidly rising house prices. The only thing it has going for it is an artifical competitvie advantage from the tax rate, which only remains valid provided nobody else does the same.

  • George

    Moderate Unionist,

    Firstly, Germany has no say about how Ireland sets its tax rates so couldn’t stop us from doing anything. We could hike them up to 100% tomorrow if we wanted.

    Anyway, corporation tax makes up aroud 5% of Germany’s total tax revenue so it’s not as worried about it as you think. It makes up nearly 11% of UK revenue.

    If everyone is so concerned about the EU accession states, then why did Foreign Direct Investment to Ireland in 2004 exceed the total in the 10 accession states?

    On inflationary excesses, Ireland has a dropping inflation rate of 2.3%, lower than that of the UK, 2.4% the highest rate in 8 years.

    That’s also with growth of 5%, over double that of the UK.

    On health deficit, the Irish Republic is bad, no doubt, but Northern Ireland has 49,000 waiting for surgical procedures, the Republic has 10,000.

    The Irish government is spending 1,000 euros more per capita on health than the UK.

    On infrastructure, Ireland is spending more per capita than other EU countries so the gap is closing.

    On education, more can and needs to be spent but I wouldn’t say there is a crisis. Nearly 40% going on for third-level education isn’t bad.

    On R and D, more needs to be done and is being done.

    On house prices, they are still affordable for many couples, even at 300,000 euros, as hard as you may find that to beleve. The soft landing looks like it is happening. Growth rate of 5% at the moment.

    You seem to think the Irish economy is based on low corporate tax rates and is therefore heading for a fall. It isn’t. There are many more strings to its bow.

    There is no crisis and there is no disaster waiting to happen. External factors could cause a slowdown, sure.

    This supposed economic time bomb of which you speak was supposed to go off in 1996 when exports were 38 billion, in 2004 they hit 84 billion.

    If the Irish government listened to the doomsayers then, we wouldn’t be where we are now so why listen now?

    Would you not be more concerned about the strong inflationary pressures in the UK, the fact that its public spending is out of control, its current account deficit is charging ahead and its manufacturing is in severe decline?

    Taxes will have to go up because of the huge jumps in public expenditure. Rates can’t be cut because household debt is already a problem.
    GDP is forecast to expand by 1.9% in 2005 and 1.7% in 2006.

    This means less tax income, which means more public sector cuts or higher taxes.

    House prices are falling and Sterling is weakening.

    Are you not more worried about that?

  • CH in Dallas

    Man, what a good thread! My thanks to the Comrade and Moderate Unionist et al. for entertaining my humble american opinions with such passion!

  • Moderate Unionist

    CHinDallas
    Glad it isn’t too boring. The trouble with a blogg is that people can state opinions which are often not based on facts. I don’t wish to get into a long dissertation on the subject but it is worth showing sometimes that there is an intellectual basis for one’s opinions.

    George
    The EU can determine Irish taxation See here

    French Finance Minister Nicolas Sarkozy and his German counterpart Hans Eichel said they would soon ask the European Commission to draft an EU law to harmonise corporate taxes.

    As for the rest, you accept that there is an infrastructure deficit in health, R&D, education and housing is a bubble waiting to burst. You can not keep on growing housing faster than wages indefinately.

    Anyway, you’re happy where you are, I am happy where I am. What’s the problem? Competition is a great thing.

  • George

    Moderate unionist,
    Germany and France want to harmonise tax rates but there aren’t harmonised tax rates within the EU.

    I repeat: the EU cannot determine Irish taxation.

    They can want all they like and draft all they like, Ireland won’t be giving up its veto over tax. I can’t see the UK giving up its veto either. Yes, both countries have a veto over such moves.

    On deficits, I don’t accept that there is any larger a health, R and D, or infrastrucutre deficit in Ireland than there is in Northern Ireland or many parts of the UK.

    I do believe the Irish government is doing more to address this deficit though and is better positioned to continue to do so in the next decade.

    I certainly don’t believe that housing is a bubble waiting to burst, I wrote the opposite.

    You remind me of a guy I know who has refused to buy a house for the last five years because he is waiting for the bubble to burst.

    He would need prices to more than halve now to get in at that rate. Even a 20% correction will only bring us back to 2003 prices and I don’t see that happening even. Soft landing I’m afraid.

    Or by what % do you see house prices dropping by and when?

    Any chance you could address my question about the problems with the UK economy?

    Over 90% of jobs in Wales last year were in the public sector and unemployment has gone up for five months in a row, for example.

    You have doubts about Europe’s top performing economy but you do not see any problems ahead for the UK?

  • willis

    Thanks Comrade and MU

    For a sensible and reasoned debate about the future which, frankly, we all have a stake in.

    I am reminded of Conor Cruise O’Brien’s quote, which got him booted out of Black Bob’s party.

    “You will either share power with terrorists in Belfast or democrats in Dublin”

    (If anyone can link to this quote I would be appreciative)

    There are not 1 million Prods unwilling to be absorbed into a United Ireland. It would depend on the deal. Many would accept the inevitable.

    In Paisley’s political lifetime the ROI has transformed itself from a theocratic backwater into a serious liberal democracy. They even beat Italy 1-0 in New York!

  • Biffo

    George & MU

    What are you both arguing about?

    Is it not widely accepted that the economies of the UK and ROI both conform to the same “Anglo Saxon” model.

    A large part of economic growth has been fuelled for the last couple of years by an unprecedented consumer credit boom in both countries which is obviously going to end sometime.

  • ch in dallas

    George, One thing I think you failed to mention is that the U.K. is going to be running deficits over defense, which De Valera made sure Eire wouldn’t have. So Eire enjoys the safety from the stupid american taxpayer (like me) and M.U. That being said, if I was going to move to your part of the globe, I’d move to Achill Isle. The U.K. is being turned into a forward operating base for Allah.

  • Moderate Unionist

    willis
    Good points

    George
    No I will not debate the UK economy with you because that would be way of thread. The UK takes it chances like everybody else in the world.

    There is only one point to be made regarding ROI. It’s tiger economy is based solely on a corporation tax of 12.5% which effectively steals money from US tax payers as the US authorities now recognise.

    If other countries follow suit or if the US plugs its tax loop hole, the ROI has no economic advantage, no natural resources, no indigenous R&D facilities, no pool of cheap labour, a poor geographic location and a very small domestic economy. So no added value there then.

    True, Northern Ireland may be in a similar mess, but so is most of Northern England. We do however share the benefit of access to the global market by providing services (public services mainly) to London (which can genuinely compete in the world market). That’s why economically we would stay put.

    And from a political point of view not only do we have closer cultural ties with the GB, but the last 30 years of IRA bombing have not encouraged us to go into a United Ireland. Quite the opposite.

    I am quite happy to develop closer economic ties where this makes sense and happy to rely upon the principle of consent with regard to the constitutional issue, but at the moment the prospect of a united ireland which was never likely is receding at a rate of knots. Who would want us? Don’t you think the “thick prods” haven’t worked that out?

  • George

    Yes, true we spend shag all on defence but that is something I am very proud of.

    Don’t actually like the idea of my tax money going to thinking up ever cleverer ways to kill as many people as possible.

    If America thinks it is defending me, then fine but don’t expect me to slap it on the back for it. It’s spending all that money to keep the defence industry going and to defend itself and its interests.

    America’s priority is America. I don’t think they are doing it all for my welfare. We just happen to be in a strategically important place so like the Finns, it makes sense to stay neutral.

    If Britain believes its future is a military one and wants to spend loads of cash on arms, that’s its affair.

    We are riding a different pony.

    There is more than way to skin a cat.

  • Comrade Stalin

    MU, if you look anywhere you’ll see reports about future trouble in any economy. There are massive fears about the credit bubble in the USA. Closer to home, a house price crash followed by recession has been predicted in the UK for two or three years running now.

    Comparing the two side by side, I think the likelihood of a crash in either the UK or Ireland is around about the same. Instead of conducting the debate along the lines of “which country is richest or least likely to crash so that we can leech money off it for our lazy public-sector fueled largesse” I think the debate should be more to do with “which country has economic policies which best match the interests of our region”. Decisions on economic matters in the UK hardly concern themselves with the affairs of NI; however as part of an all-Ireland state decisions in Dublin concerning NI would account for around a quarter of the population and conceivably more (as a percentage) of the island’s overall economic activity.

    “..which effectively steals money from US tax payers as the US authorities now recognise…”

    Got a source for US authorities complaining about this outrageous theft ?

    “If other countries follow suit or if the US plugs its tax loop hole ..”

    There is no mood in the USA to put blocks in front of outsourcing or to take away tax loopholes for large corporations. That mood did not exist under the Clinton administration and you can bet that it doesn’t exist in the Bush administration.

    “.. the ROI has no economic advantage, no natural resources, no indigenous R&D facilities,”

    Name some indigenous R&D facilities in the UK. Better yet, name some that are likely to set up shop in NI. Here’s a clue – there are none.

    ” no pool of cheap labour, a poor geographic location and a very small domestic economy. So no added value there then.”

    This is completely ignorant of the facts. There is no way that these companies have built a business case for operating in Ireland solely upon a tax loophole. The ROI is home to the European headquarters of several US multinationals, all of which have large markets throughout Europe. Do you mean to say that if a tax loophole in the USA gets closed, Intel will suddenly have no need to sell chips manufactured Dublin elsewhere in Europe ? Do you think Microsoft will decide to close it’s language translation centre in Leopardstown (where a ready pool of multilingual workers are available from all over Europe) and move it back to the US ? Oracle, Google and Ebay are other large companies with a presence in the state. The reason for it is to do with access to Europe and low startup and labour costs as much as it is to do with the tax rates. Just because a loophole gets closed back home does not mean that the business case for these operations will simply vanish.

    “at the moment the prospect of a united ireland which was never likely is receding at a rate of knots. Who would want us? Don’t you think the “thick prods” haven’t worked that out?”

    I don’t know who you mean by “thick prods”, I never brought the term into the discussion and I didn’t see anyone else doing so. The battlefield for either the union or for reunification is not going to be concerned with economics as any more than a side detail – it’s a sad fact.

    But at the moment, Ireland is in many respects a better place to do business than the UK. The education system is holding up rather than being gutted, the tax rates are low and the heavy investment in infrastructure is beginning to bring results. The close ties with the EU and the Euro are things that business generally prefer – ask anyone in the UK manufacturing sector how they feel about the strong pound and what it has done to their businesses.

  • frank

    McGurk sums the situation up pretty well in his article in today’s SBP.

    http://www.thepost.ie/post/pages/p/story.aspx-qqqt=TOM%20MCGURK-qqqs=commentandanalysis-qqqid=8027-qqqx=1.asp

  • CH in Dallas

    George, I appreciate your response to the defense spending. Although I personally disagree with a country letting some else do the fightin’, your response was intellectually honest. Comrade Stalin, you need to change your nom de blog to Maggie Thatcher! Low tax rates do attract U.S. business to the ROI, but it’s the Irish people who are the main attraction. 1)They speak English, the lingua franca 2)they are highly educated. Hungery could have lower tax rates, but we wouldn’t relocate there. Can’t communicate. Besides 25% of U.S. pop. has Irish roots

  • George

    MU,
    The Irish Republic’s economy is not solely based solely on a corporation tax of 12.5%, that is merely a component part of an overall package.

    You are being extremely naive if you think a country can achieve what Ireland has achieved in the last 20 years by simply cutting corporate tax.

    Ireland is the ninth-largest investor in the United States so who is stealing from whom?

    You say Ireland has no economic advantage other than its tax loop hole, which is patent rubbish.

    It has a highly-educated, English-speaking workforce, low crime, stable government, good links with other countries, is a member of the euro, has a very open economy with little bureaucracy etc.

    Its greatest natural resourse is its people and you never know, we might find oil in the Atlantic yet.

    On Research and development, 2.5 billion has been allocated under the current National Development Plan and it is beginning to pay off.

    Over the summer alone, 5 new major R&D investments worth over 50 million euros were announced. Watch the R&D space.

    The Irish state’s main economic objective is to complete Ireland’s evolution to a knowledge-based economy.

    You don’t believe it is possible for Ireland, I believe it is.

    No pool of cheap labour. We don’t want cheap labour, which is why we have a minimum wage. There were 70,000 new people in the last 12 months and the birth rate is good so labour supply is holding up.

    A poor geographic location? Why? I look left I see the United States, I look right and I see Europe and Asia. What could be better, right in the middle.

    Small economy is now worth 120 billion. That’s big enough for me.

    You are also naive if you believe that wealth in London will trickle down to Northern Ireland.

    It won’t. It has failed Northern Ireland in 2005 and it will continue to fail it. The GNI gap between Norhtern Ireland and the UK average has remained the same since 1997, at 79% of the UK average. Not a drop has made it in 8 years.

    The Irish economy has been outgrowing the UK one for pretty well 45 years now.

    What services are being provided by Northern Ireland to London?

    On wanting “thick Prods”, no we don’t want thick Prods but Prods aren’t thick so that’s not what we would be getting. Angry, yes, confused yes, thick no.

    A united Ireland may be receding at a rate of knots but even if this sounds contradictory this doesn’t mean that it isn’t becoming more feasible.

    Thirty years ago, the New Ulster Movement cited Ireland’s economic backwardness as one of its five reasons against unification.

    Now in 2005, thinking unionists are citing Northern Ireland’s economic backwardness as a reason against unification.

    Unionism will always be against unification and find reasons but will Protestants?

  • Dave

    Fao George and MU.

    I thought that both would be interested in this article: nothing has changed to this day.

    By Ciaran Irvine Reported in the Blanket

    “The reasons are many — yet foremost among them is that Ahern has managed, single-handedly, to waste the greatest Irish economic boom in centuries. A good Taoiseach, in such times of plenty, and from such a secure political position, would have used the cash (and power) to resolve all the myriad problems that plague southern Irish society. Yet the ludicrous planning system, the overly centralised system of government with its arrogant civil service, the pathetic state of local councils, the increasingly out-of-control Gardai, the collapsing health service, the under funded education service (with many children still being taught, 40 at a time, in leaky substandard classrooms by undereducated and unaccountable teachers), the lack of childcare facilities, the inability of most young people to aspire to their own home, the wholesale destruction of one of the richest environments in Europe, the frankly criminal “public transport” system…..

    All problems that existed before Ahern’s ascension as Taoiseach, true. But he has been in power for 5 years now. What has actually been done on any of these matters? Nothing. Most of them have got even worse on his watch.”

    ================================================
    There you have it.
    This is where the GFA would lead us, this is what would be in store for the people of Northern Ireland, no wonder more than 21% of Catholics vote for Unionists Parties. they may be many things, being economic fools is not one of them

  • Moderate Unionist

    Comrade Stalin

    Got a source for US authorities complaining about this outrageous theft ? YES
    Martin Sullivan writes that there is growing concern about an erosion of the corporate tax base and-over the long-term- the viability of the U.S. corporate income tax.
    source

    There is no mood in the USA to put blocks in front of outsourcing or to take away tax loopholes for large corporations – WRONG

    US multinationals with Irish operations may have re-think on huge profit repatriations Temporary reduced tax rate available under the American Jobs Creation Act (AJCA), which was passed by the US Congress last October 2004. Source

    ”This is completely ignorant of the facts. There is no way that these companies have built a business case for operating in Ireland solely upon a tax loophole.”– WRONG

    Paul McGowan, the chairman of accountancy firm KPMG’s tax practice: ‘I think that in the medium term the [corporation tax]rate will still be enough of an incentive to multinationals. But Ireland doesn’t have an awful lot else going for it. There’s no internal market and transportation costs are high.’ Source

    Like their counterparts in Bermuda, politicians in Dublin are being bashful about what many would consider Ireland’s main attraction: low taxes. Instead, they like to emphasise their high-quality regulation, the advantage of being able to do business in English, Ireland’s entrepreneurial spirit, and its highly educated yet relatively low-cost workers.

    The economist

    “Thick prods”
    No I introduced the term. There is an assertion that Unionists need rescuing as indicate by the article that frank give a link too. The Loyalists don’t want a United Ireland so they will create mayhem. You could argue that they are not being stupid, but that they just have different priorities. One which places constitutional issues above economic advancement. You may not agree with their value system in much the same way that it is difficult to argue against islam, but the rational/economic model may not hold.

    George
    We live in a global economy. There are good people everywhere, with a good education, with easy access to capital, with easy access to technology. None of these offer a compelling competitive advantage. The South is a one trick pony called low taxation.

    The question for you both. If we don’t want to go into a United Ireland will you help us rebuild Northern Ireland?

    Dave
    Thanks for info

  • Moderate Unionist

    Comrade Stalin
    Sorry links didn’t work. Here they are again
    Martin Sullivan
    American Job Creation Act 2004
    KPMG

    The economist

  • lib2016

    Moderate unionist

    Google ‘Irish economic miracle’ and you’ll get 390,000 hits many of which will demolish your arguments.

    The fact is that economics is an imprecise ‘science’ and that no-one predicted the strength of the Irish economy and no-one can tell the future.

    Whar we can say is that Britain is, like ourselves, an offshore island and that currently the Southern economy is in much healthier shape.

    Personally I’d like to see all of Ireland move towards a Scandanavian-type of economy but if it happens it will be as a result of attraction rather than esoteric arguments about finance.

    We can choose between what happened last week and ordinary everyday life in an increasingly multicultural Ireland in an increasingly multicultural EU.

    The failure of the ‘UK & NI’ solution is becoming increasingly obvious. It just doesn’t work and to continue tackling a problem with methods which have already been shown to fail is one definition of madness.

  • Biffo

    “Whar we can say is that Britain is, like ourselves, an offshore island and that currently the Southern economy is in much healthier shape.”

    Is it? Examples?

  • ch in dallas

    Moderate Unionist, My cowboy hat off to your research. The discussion in the U.S. has been about “benedict Arnold” companies, that at a time of war, are trying to shelter income from taxes oversees. That refers more to the Enrons of the country who use tricky books and 100% shelters like Bermuda or the Cayman Islands, as opposed to the ROI, which the article cited calls a semi-haven. But still, Eire shows the wisdom of the Reagan, Thatcher, Bush, policy that low taxation attracts investment and lifts all boats. It’s up to Mr. Ahern not to muck it all up. Actually the real question concerns personal tax rates, and how many euros or pounds the ave. Irishman has in his pocket to spend and expand the economy.

  • lib2016

    Biffo,

    Please read the post from ‘George’ timed @ 03.28 today. He puts the case far more eloquently than I could.

  • Moderate Unionist

    lib2016
    Just cause you say it’s so, doesn’t make it so.

    The Republic of Ireland has no natural resources, no particular competitive advantage, a small domestic economy, and poor infrastructure.

    It’s only competitve advantage is a corporation tax of 12.5%.

    One company accounts for 10% of its corporation tax. What percentage of the population does it employ? Wonder what the rest do?

    This debate would be more meaningful if the dialogue was based on hard facts rather than propaganda and wishful thinking.

    As for the UK & NI model failing. Northern Ireland’s economic dependence on the public sector is no different to other regions such as the North East, the North West, Wales, Scotland etc.

  • Moderate Unionist

    CHinDallas
    Perhaps you could explain to the people here what a “Benedict Arnold” company is. Many of the people over here will have supported Kerry but few will have understood the term. People like Comrade Stalin believes that it is a non issue in the US, perhaps you could clarify?

    Got a source for US authorities complaining about this outrageous theft ?

    Incidentally, I have no complaint against lower taxes. My point is that if we all adopt lower taxes then the competitive advantage dissappears and you will have to find other ways to fund the infrastructure deficit.

  • lib2016

    The Irish economy is still outperforming nearly everybody (not just the Brits!) even after acession of the new EU countries, some of which have zero corporation tax. Obviously there must be advantages to investment here unless you are suggesting that massive corporations come here because they like the ‘craic’.

    The ‘hard facts’ as you put it are in the continuing success of the Irish economy.

    How does the failure of the UK & NI regions affect the argument? If the model is at fault surely it is likely to fail in all regions, as you have pointed out?

    Most Irish nationalists would claim that is a result of the undue importance of SE England in the UK & NI economy. It would seem to me that a Dublin/Belfast linear city would be best for most of us, especially the unionist population since they would be within commuting distance.

  • CH in Dallas

    Benedict Arnold was an American general during our War of Independance. He sold out his country for money by giving the British secrets. Today, with our young men and women fighting and dying in 2 theaters of war, these Benedict Arnold companies are more interest in sheltering their fat profits from American taxation than paying their fair share, leaving Billy Bob with a hefty tax burden and a pick-up truck with no gas, while his 19 y.o. son is in the Marines in Tal afar. Someone please stop me cuz I’m startin’ to sound like a fricken commie!

  • Moderate Unionist

    CH in Dallas
    Thanks for that, at least people now know that it is a real issue.

    lib2016
    But you can’t help wondering how our international trading partners continue to let us get away with what is effectively a beggar-my-neighbour economic policy.

    You only have to look at the first quarter results published by internet search engine Google earlier this month to get an idea of just how much our low-tax regime is costing the US exchequer in terms of forfeit revenues.

    Google pulled off the astonishing feat of increasing its first quarter operating income to $443 million (€342 million) from $155million in the first quarter of 2004, while simultaneously paying less income tax, largely as a result of its decision to set up an Irish subsidiary. Link here

    Ireland has done well over the last 20 years but don’t get carried away. It’s all down to tax breaks. No secret, No magic formula, No big deal.

  • ch in dallas

    Moderate Unionist, I’m starting to see things your way. Erin has painted herself up and put on perfume and has called out to American business, “Come on over lads for a little cuddle.And bring some of that money.” So the Yanks show up with all those dollars, and Erin keeps a bit. She then shows some to her sis Elizabeth upstairs (who’se hopelessly in love with Tony) and says “Look at all my money. I must be a pretty good busnesswoman.” Whereas Liz replies, Oh Erin! You’ve been pullin’ down yer knickers again!!!!!!!!LOL

  • Paul

    Yip, to be honest I havent even bothered reading half of the above because you if think there is an intellectual solution to the ‘loyalist’ problem……sorry lads, there isnt.
    As long as the likes of Sean Kelly get re-re-released and the Sinn Feiners get their comrades returned from Spain with no criminal charges, no families given peace of mind, no one convicted of heinous crimes (as the forthcoming OTR Bill will see to) the ‘loyalists’ (& they are loyal no more, believe me) will still be mighty fucked off. Blame it on rerouted OO marches if you want, that was an excuse for a riot, not the reason for the ferocity of the rioting, nor the reason for continuing road blocks etc. Misguided perception of the way things are maybe, not realising that equality is not one-upmanship but simply equality as it should always have been isnt the point, the working class protestants have FELT misled since the signing of the GFA. What we are seeing is that bubbling over. So, mock, take the piss, be indignated, be smart arse bloggers, pissed off cos you got stuck on the way home in your Vectra! Sorry but it’s just gonna keep happening while the former moderate Prods become more and more ‘Loyalist’ day after day. Don’t you realise what can happen when a huge amount of people couldnt give a fuck what you think of them?? ……… que smart arse remarks from the slugger brown-noses…….

  • Dave

    Taking about ecomonics and should the republic of Ireland be the ecomonic gaint people state it to be where would that leave Northern Ireland in the years ahead?

    The Green Paper

    Part three entitled ‘Towards a Settlement.

    Is certainly not in search of the truth and would have been better sub-titled. Some of the facts.

    Paragraph 67 attempts to bolster up a bogus financial contention that Northern Ireland can only survive if it is in receipt of subsidies and special payments from the United Kingdom Treasury. Loans upon which we pay interest and are obliged to repay are strangely added in to the total as if some special favour accrues, overlooking the fact that by our constitution we are not only limited in the amount we can borrow but we must as a Government of Northern Ireland borrow only from the United Kingdom even though better terms may be obtained elsewhere. Farm subsidies are something we are supposed to be grateful for even though it is the United Kingdom Government that prevents our farmers getting the market price for their produce. The benefits of the United Kingdom are to be counted but not the burdens. We must buy British coal even though it can be purchased cheaper elsewhere. The United Kingdom Government has been more generous to the local authorities in other parts of the United Kingdom in paying block grants calculated on a basis of need compared to the controlled parity allocations to the Government of Northern Ireland. It is common practise in every nation that there is a measure of harmonisation between the well off and the less well off even when the constitution is of a federal character.

    We have no doubt that there is a place for interdependence. We have never accepted a Sinn Fein attitude. But interdependence does not involve servile dependence. Ulstermen wish to play their historic role in the free world. They believe this can best be done within the United Kingdom. But they are ready to do it without the United Kingdom if Westminster so wills it.

    The dependence of Great Britain, even within the European context — upon Northern Ireland is as important as Northern Ireland’s dependence upon Great Britain. The hidden subsidies to the Eire economy are as great as the exaggerated subsidies to Northern Ireland’s economy. Certainly if it is argued that the Republic is prospering with almost twice the population and half the gross product then Ulster’s case is not as hopeless as faint hearts would presume.

    If the United Kingdom Government believes that Northern Ireland can be coerced by financial considerations into accepting a settlement that opens the way to eventual incorporation of Northern Ireland into an Irish Republic, they should be undeceived. The United Kingdom should remember that the 1920 Act never held out any prospect of financial help to Northern Ireland from the United Kingdom Exchequer. It was not financial considerations that weighed with Northern Ireland in 1920 any more than in 19 14. No more do they weigh decisively to-day. Paragraph 69 referring to the use of Northern Ireland Security Forces is totally rejected and whilst the Northern Ireland Government must be held responsible for its failure the culpability of the United Kingdom Government is no less if not greater.

    We appreciate the contribution of the Armed Forces referred to in paragraph 68 and sympathise with the casualties and the cost but the scale and cost of the commitment is due to the blundering political policies of the United Kingdom Governments. The cost to Northern Ireland in human and economic terms is far greater and will bear heavily on generations to come and is by no means capable of being fully compensated for by United Kingdom special payments.

    Paragraph 72 is insulting nonsense. Northern Ireland has the right to self determination and if she is driven out of the United Kingdom in her independence she will make her own participation in wider associations and communities with a better chance of external investment and trade than remaining within the United Kingdom in a weak unstable position. Northern Ireland is one of Britain’s biggest customers spending more than £600 million per annum. Outside the Common Market with the right economic policies Northern Ireland could be a very attractive business base for other outsiders interested in European markets.

    THE ULSTER DECISION Paragraph 78
    declares that it remains the view of the United Kingdom Government that it is for the people of Northern Ireland to decide what should be their relationship to the United Kingdom and to the Republic of Ireland.
    We shall decide but would prefer to do it constitutionally.

    Paragraph 1
    declares that the Government of Ireland Act 1920 remains today the basic constitutional document for Northern Ireland. It provides the constitutional machinery to decide.
    Give us back our constitutional rights.

    Mr. Clement Attlee, speaking on the second reading, Ireland Bill 1949, 464 Hansard, Col. 1857: I have heard criticism of the words used here, “The Parliament of Northern Ireland”. It has been suggested that this is in some sense an amplification of the words which I used in November. I really cannot agree to that. We recognise the authority of the Parliament of Eire, now the Republic of Ireland, to act on behalf of the people of Eire in carrying out their decision to leave the Commonwealth, and we do not look behind that. We recognise equally the right of the Parliament of Northern Ireland to decide on behalf of the people of Northern Ireland to stay on or leave the United Kingdom and Commonwealth.’

    THE FULL WEIGHT OF THIS COUNCIL WILL BE THROWN AGAINST ANY SETTLEMENT NOT APPROVED BY THE PARLIAMENT OF NORTHERN IRELAND: AND THE PEOPLE NOW STAND AT THE READY.

    Our British Heritage we will preserve. We are opposed to joining an all Ireland Republic and we demand that the power and resources of the State shall be deployed against all efforts to bring about the unification of Ireland. We would prefer to maintain the Union but the desire must be reciprocated and pledges must be accompanied by a powerful Parliament in Northern Ireland to resist all attacks and to defeat the inevitable recurring terrorists onslaughts virtually guaranteed to take place by the success of the present attack. If there is not to be this strength in the United Kingdom we would prefer to be outside the United Kingdom seeking no special treatment but expecting at least the same consideration as the anti-British South when it opted out of the 1920 Constitution. In their own interest the majority community must now demand some safeguard against the visible tendency of the sovereign power under Republican stress to treat Northern Ireland as a disposable asset rather than as an inviolable and integral part of the United Kingdom. Their only safeguard against the neutrality of the sovereign power must be a shift of power from London to Belfast so as to give the majority the legal and physical power to resist attack or betrayal. The United Kingdom Government must understand that they have squandered the unconditional loyalty and trust they had. Northern Ireland gave these in the belief that they were reciprocal. Now that the United Kingdom Government discloses that it is no longer so, the internal distribution of powers requires to be adjusted accordingly.

    Sovereignty in the British tradition does not simply imply lordship. Magna Charter and the Bill of Rights through such sovereignty guarantees rights of citizenship to the people including protection of person and property. It is precisely these rights which were not maintained by successive Governments. The final betrayal in March 1972 set aside not only those citizens rights but also the rights of Her Majesty’s representative — The Governor. Not since Cromwell’s time has the army of the realm had such say in current affairs and centuries have passed since a British Minister had such control over Monarchy, Executive and Parliament.

    The loyalty of British people is not to a government as such, but to our traditions enshrined in the monarchy. This is precisely what Ulster loyalists will maintain — should all others seek to betray them.

    The United Kingdom Parliament cannot have it both ways. They cannot refuse complete integrated citizenship of the United Kingdom and at the same time demand unequivocal acceptance of their terms. As British citizens we have a right to all the provisions and protection of any other part of the realm. It is because we have no guarantee of these that the Ulster Loyalist demands his own Parliament with powers to maintain the Union. If Westminster does not want the Union then Northern Ireland has a moral right to opt for terms which will maintain its heritage.

  • Dave

    Dug the above out of my archives, it is was relevant yesterday as it is today and tomorrow.

  • Dave

    Dug the above out of my archives, as it is was relevant yesterday as it is today and tomorrow.

  • Dave

    I will try that again (time for bed)

    Dug the above out of my archives, It was relevant yesterday and is relevant and tomorrow

    nite, nite

  • Dave

    I agree witrh you Paul, thats why I seek Independence for Ulster

  • Dave

    I agree with you Paul, that’s why I seek Independence for Ulster

  • cladycowboy

    Paul

    ‘So, mock, take the piss, be indignated, be smart arse bloggers, pissed off cos you got stuck on the way home in your Vectra!’

    Or indeed have your toddlers skull fractured in your vectra. Quit the mopery, half of those whipping up the young lads about Sean Kelly’s release have themselves been released from sectarian murder prison sentences. Surely you have the capacity to recognise the hypocrisy here? You don’t know what you want as a community, do you really think if Sean Kelly is returned to jail, obviously along with the UVF/UDA re-offenders organising the riot, that all will be honky-dory? Give me a break.
    Militant Republicanism is dis-arming,now you’ve got to face your real enemy,thats what hurts so much.I can’t help you personally, just don’t touch my vectra while you re-assess your life path

  • Paul

    Clady

    Firstly can I say I agree with you completely & i’m no UVF/UDA apologist.

    Paraphrase me at will though, I really dont take this slugger lark as seriously as you and your selective quote marks mean fuck all to me.

    What I am saying is, from day-to-day experience, for whatever misguided reasons or misguided sense of injustice the formally moderate unionists I know, who are now mostly “loyalists”, they are not condemning the violence or roadblocks anymore. Simple as that.

    I wish the spirit of the GFA has been absorbed by all, but it clearly hasnt been. I’m no supporter for little spiedy fucks bricking cars, (yes, even those with weeuns in them!!) All I was trying to express was the anger felt within loyalist/protestant communities now.

    There will be more of the same in the coming weeks, localised to Belfast & hopefully dying out when they get bored but the potential is there for more misery because, sorry mate, the anger is there, all over slum (but not as slummy as cath-lic estate….like…as slugger made clear) protestant working class areas in NI.

    You can take the piss again, really means nothing to me, i’m just expressing what i’m hearing when i’m home & it’s not nice to hear. As much as you want it to be UVF/UDA instigated violence, they played a big part but I hate to say this, it wasnt all them.

  • idunnomeself

    George,

    interesting stuff.

    What is your take on the argument that the ROI economic miracle is actually a Dublin miracle, and that modern economic growth is more about city states than states.

    Thus ‘Irish growth’ is really Dublin growth, while UK growth is really an equally successful London, with the rest of the island struggling.

    Who is to say that Tyrone wouldn’t be as poor as Leitrim in a united Ireland? How can we assume that it’d turn out like Wicklow?

    (still took some doing to get Dublin to be a world player though, it certainly wasn’t inevitable)

  • Brian Boru

    Dave, if you are in favour of what you call a “Ulster parliament” then why do you keep blocking its restoration by refusing powersharing?

    Also, if a majority in NI vote for a UI then you have to put up with it. It is called democracy and this is the 21st century, not 1914 or 1920. All votes, Catholic or Protestant, are of equal validity and the majority will decide what state the 6 counties are part of. It’s called democracy.

  • tom fitzsimons

    Does loving ulster include Mullaghoran Co.Cavan ??