Loyalists decommissioning: the elephant not in the room

From yesterday’s Guardian. Jonathan Freedland asks why no one expected something like the Belfast riots when no one was even asking the Loyalist paramilitaries to mirror the IRA’s expected decommissioning.

  • slug

    Something I have been asking: why have nationalist politicians never prioritised loyalist decommissioning?

  • VICTOR1

    They have disbandment of the RUC/RIR removal of the British armed forces that would do for a start!

  • dawgface911

    the disbanded RUC and RIR did a pretty good job these past few mad days, fair play to them

  • dawgface911

    why dont we treat the royalist irish settlers the same as the isreali zionist settlers in gazza!! pay them to leave. they could be allowed to take their weapons with them. and if they act quick, maybe they could still get a piece of the ira dump to take with them.

  • Dave

    “no one was even asking the Loyalist paramilitaries to mirror the IRA’s expected decommissioning.”

    I agree. The loyalists should also pretend to decommission their weapons. Laughable isn’t it.

  • Denny Boy

    Hellfire, Mick, all the bother I went to yesterday OCRing and posting that piece and you post a link to half the article! Oh well.

    Slugger was very flaky earlier today. Seems to back on stream now.

    “I agree. The loyalists should also pretend to decommission their weapons. Laughable isn’t it.”

    Wait and see, Dave. Then comment? 😉

  • Raff

    Regarding loyalist decommissioning, firstly how can they disarm when many of their weapons are in the hands of the RUC and UDR not to mention the British Army, and secondly, why would the loyalists decommission when the provisional movement, are quite happy to agree to the unionist veto, disbanding of their army, the soon to be endorsement of the RUC and the decommissioning of their weapons without asking for anything in return.

    The loyalist rioting shows the loyalist groupings, (and I include here the OO and DUP for obvious reasons) are nothing short of thugs with little respect for a union with Britain. If these people actually cherished this union they would respect the democratically elected government and the rule of law. What these loyalists are loyal to is the system of segregation and oppression that they have been used to here in this part of Ireland.

  • Dave

    Denny Boy

    Wait and see, Dave. Then comment? 😉

    I believe people have waited long enough for SF/IRA to move on decommissioning.

    Everything the republican movement has gained over this past ten years will now be lost.

    The unionist population have lost faith in the present “British” government that in itself will create a huge problem.
    When loyalty to the crown fades into a distance memory because of acts of British betrayal, the people will transfer their loyalty to their Country Culture and Heritage these are the things they cherish.

    It has always been perceived by the unionists population that a Labour government would betray Ulster people, the dogs in the streets know that. (it is nothing new just something proving to be true).

    All the armchair generals and politicians are searching for a solution to the “Irish problem”

    The “Irish problem” will be resolved when the people of Ulster switch allegiance from the crown to Ulster itself. When the Ulster people come to terms with the fact that they are not seen as British but as Irish then everything will turn from bad to really bad.

    I have no time for Irish politicians/Terrorists, I have no time for British Politicians/Terrorists. I do have time for the people of Ulster and their quest for freedom from the political trap they were led into.

    Ulster people will have to stand their ground and defend their Country. Their Country is perceived by the Irish who claim to be theirs to take.

    The British back door no longer needs to be guarded by Ulster and its people and the British see Ulster as something they have the right to give to Irish terrorists (provided the Irish stop bombing English cities).

    Should the British/Irish/American and the International terror organisation SF/IRA who are now seen as partners engaged in robbing the people of Ulster of their land and the destruction of their Culture/Heritage by political sleight of hand, should think again?

    Independence for Ulster is a viable option, some believe this not to be true, nonetheless that is the course of action which will eventually be taken, I have no doubts on that issue.

    The Belfast agreement is now dead. may it rest in peace.

    .Wait and see, Denny Boy. Then comment ? 😉

  • Raff

    Dave, I applaud your understanding that Ulster and its people are indeed Irish, but I m afraid that these 6 counties are neither a country nor a viable independent entity. May I also point out a few more facts?

    ‘The “Irish problem” will be resolved when the people of Ulster switch allegiance from the crown to Ulster itself’ – I am afraid not, if Unionist/loyalist thought turns to an independent Ulster then this is still contrary to Republican/Nationalist belief and as stated not viable, result: more conflict and destruction.

    ‘I do have time for the people of Ulster and their quest for freedom from the political trap they were led into’. – they were not led into this current state of affairs, many of the original planters came here and usurped this land as a conquering people in the belief that Ireland and its subjects were theirs. Those born here had their hatred and beliefs of dominance fostered by ‘loyal’ institutions and the British. They went but were not led.

    ‘Ulster people will have to stand their ground and defend their Country. Their Country is perceived by the Irish who claim to be theirs to take’. – I as are many I know Ulster born and bred and we do not view these 6 counties as our country I believe you mean Ulster Protestants/Unionists and Loyalists. Also as stated this is NOT a country and it is Irish, therefore belonging to the Irish!

    ‘……robbing the people of Ulster of their land and the destruction of their Culture/Heritage’ – a myth used by the Unionist/Loyalist ascendancy to foster sectarianism and hate. As enshrined by the Declaration of Independence Unionists will have a guarantee of religious and civil liberty. And since our culture/heritage intersects at many areas it would be very stupid in wiping out both cultures to get rid of one.

    ‘The Belfast agreement is now dead. May it rest in peace’ – SPOT ON! A farce if ever there was one.

  • penny

    Dave, your right the British nor the Irish government want the hassle of the prostestants/loyalist/orange men,and they are right.what is the point of them,they have even contuined to kill their own years after the PIRA stopped.They are an evil race of people the world could live well without.Peace to all who look and work towards it.

  • Mike

    “why dont we treat the royalist irish settlers the same as the isreali zionist settlers in gazza!! pay them to leave.”

    “They are an evil race of people the world could live well without.”

    Thanks for the reinmder that virulent bigotry doesn’t just exist on one side of the ‘divide’, folks.

  • 9countyprovience

    Dave

    “Ulster people will have to stand their ground and defend their Country. Their Country is perceived by the Irish who claim to be theirs to take.”

    The Irish don’t have a claim on Ulster. The Irish have Ulster. Be they Irish or British/Irish. There’s no mix of people, only of political views and alligance.
    If you are refering to the Republic, That claim was voted out of existance with the GFA.

    “robbing the people of Ulster of their land and the destruction of their Culture/Heritage”

    This is what you are led to believe by Unionist politicians. This view is not helped by Republican hardliners hijacking a large part of your heritage for themselves. The Irish government have pledged €15 million to the development of the Boyne site. Orange marches in the Republics Ulster counties pass off peacefully and are family events for all. If you mix your Culture/Heritage with your political view, then it will always seem that it is under attack. If you really cared about your Culture/Heritage then it can never be successfully attacked, no matter what happens politically. Just take a look at the histor of your own country, the traditional green side of Irish culture survived hundreds of years of attacks of all kinds. I think that the problem with Culture/Heritage for both sides is a lack of definition. The old definition is that your culture means ‘not something’. E.G. Irish culture is defined as not British and vice versa. This is one of the main things that is holding us all back.

    Penny

    “They are an evil race of people the world could live well without.”

    ‘They’ are not a different race. ‘They’ are our neighbours. ‘They’ work in our community. This is an extremly unhelpful atittude that only breeds fear, hate and contempt. Just suppose one of ‘them’ said the same thing about Catholics. I’d say you’d be one of the first on here to call them a sectarian Protestant bigot.

  • Richard

    It is to this site’s eternal shame that comments such as Penny’s are allowed to stand uncensored. Disgusting.

  • Denny Boy

    Jeeze, Dave, I asked you to wait and see, and you waited only 8 hours!

    You know as well as I do that demilitarization is also far from complete. With so many entrenched (ie obtuse) positions in NI, there’s a good chance that both issues might not be resolved even in our lifetimes.

  • penny

    So sorry if i upset the apple cart,but it is so clear the prostestant community does not want to share any kind of equlity with it’s catholic neighbours.If they did why are the majority rejecting the GFA and still demanding to force their pardes down Catholic areas.

    loyalist will not give up their arms or even “pretent”to as Dave would put it as they don’t want peace.If they do follow the example of the PIRA,if it is such joke they have nothing to loose,have they?

  • penny

    Richard, I’ll tell you what is Disgusting what has been going on in Belfast over the past week. Loyalists can do it but dare I say it.

  • Richard

    Unfortunately penny, your comments were not addressed at loyalists but as the whole protestant community. The racist nature of your comment is explicitly clear to anyone who reads them, I hope you have the grace to feel ashamed but I doubt it.

  • penny

    Racist i’m not.It is not I or the Catholic people who are burning minorties out.I like others have been subjected to harassment for years from the good prostestant people and now as we try to make things better they wont move .If I am wrong where is the voice of reason? why wont they the loyalists give up their arms ?and why are’nt these goog prostestant folk asking them to?because it is them who are racist you have to agree.

  • Richard

    ‘Jews are an evil race of people the world could live well without’

    ‘Catholics are an evil race of people the world could live well without’

    ‘Protestants are an evil race of people the world could live well without’

    Penny, if you cannot see that the above statements are all racist, you are to be pitied.

  • dawgface911

    ” thanks for the reminder that “virulent bigotry dosen’t exist on just one side of the divide folks”
    Mike , suggesting a financial incentive solution to unhappy settlers is not ‘virulent bigotry ‘. In your comment at least there is an implied acceptance that ” virulent bigotry ” does certainly exist in the orange royalist population.
    It is interesting, this talk of threatening the protestant culture. the big problem, as someone above stated, is defining the protestant culture. I believe, objectively speaking, one defining characteristic is fear. And consequently this fear is expressed in bigotry, suspicion, negativity, and aggression.
    I think it has something to do with being a settler in the first place.

  • Denny Boy

    dawgface911

    “I believe, objectively speaking, one defining characteristic is fear.

    You forgot “anger” and “frustration”, the Unionist/Orange buzz-words of recent days.

    Since nobody, when pressed to explain them, seemed able to, let me help out.

    Anger= that they can no longer have their way in “their” statelet

    Frustration = that the cops and army are no longer “theirs”

    Fear = that they’ll finally have to be decent chaps and accept fair play for all, even (dread word) nationalists

  • lib2016

    The unionist/protestant part of our society has the same ethnic background as the nationalist/catholic part. ‘penny’ is no racist for pointing out that a section of our community is not looking too good at the moment.

    I would have said the same about the nationalist/catholic side of our society in the 1950’s and early 60’s.

  • penny

    okay Richard you have me condemned as a racist,but what about my other points.Or does it not matter that loyalists are burning minorities out of their homes refusing to move with the peace process,forcing their culture down Catholic streets.

  • Dave

    I would like to thank all for their comments.

    As you can see their are disagreements and their in lies the problem.

    Northern Ireland is a Country the fact that I prefer to call my country by the name of Ulster is due to the fact that Republicans/Nationalists do not have the manners to call it by either name and refer to my Country as The NORTH. (Thanks)

    Settlers? I take that to mean the Scottish? sure don’t the Irish keep reminding us Settlers that it was the Irish who went to Scotland and gave it the name Scotti? That being the case we have come home but don’t see ourselves as being Irish.

    Somebody should tell those Australians to get out of Aussie as it BELONGS to the Aborigines and should all the Irish get out of America/England? Thought not! So don’t tell others to get out of Ulster (besides we have no intentions of moving).

    The Independence issue will become prominent I have no doubts about this, hopefully it will be a negotiated Independence opposed to the UDI type. People can keep on saying until they are blue in the face that it won’t work. That is different from the fact that it will take place, this is not from me that is from the dogs in the street they know the score. To bring Independence into reality the British/Irish/American governments need do no more than what they do at present.

    Hey! maybe that is the big picture we fools can’t see (If only)

    One land mass, two tribes, we are better going our separate ways and with a little luck and hard work from good people someday we can become good neighbours.

    For the time being it seems that violence is the preferred method of communication between the people of Ulster and Westminster. I believe the line was crystal clear to all concerned, I know we were heard, not sure if anyone was actually listening.

    I was born in Ulster and damn proud of that fact but I’m not Irish, I wish harm to no one however Ulster is my Country and should your opinion differ on this then your opinion would be irrelevant.

    For PENNY tut, tut, This vile race of people you talk about (that would include me, my wife and children)? This race of people have not voted in mass for loyalists paramilitaries to represent them at government level (not yet anyway) only the Republican/National communities have sought for a terror organisation (SF/IRA) to represent them, who is vile now? When the people of Ulster decide via the ballot box to empower loyalist paramilitaries to represent them you can be sure that Independence will become a reality.

  • Denny Boy

    “Northern Ireland is a Country the fact that I prefer to call my country by the name of Ulster is due to the fact that Republicans/Nationalists do not have the manners to call it by either name and refer to my Country as The NORTH. (Thanks)”

    Dave, don’t take on so! The people of the Netherlands don’t mind one whit when foreigners refer to their country as “Holland”, the name they give to the province in the south of their country. Nor do they mind being called Dutch, an anglicization derived from the German “Deutsch”.

    The difference is of course that the Netherlandish people are broad minded.

  • George

    Dave,
    we don’t call it Ulster because you decided on calling it Northern Ireland instead. Not our decision you know so don’t blame us just because 80 years later you don’t like the Ireland in your name because it makes people think who don’t know better that you might be a little Irish as a result.

    You are British but seem to want independence from Britain because it can’t deliver for your, I suppose, higher standard of Britishness.

    Maybe you can put some meat in that sandwich and answer some simple questions if you really believe it to be an option.

    Will you be asking for Donegal, Monaghan and Cavan back from the Irish Republic for your brave new Ulster or will you be handing over Derry, Tyrone, Armagh and Fermanagh and creating an Ulster Lite as we go our separate ways?

    Can you tell me where you envisage this border to be and how you intend paying to defend it considering the British won’t be subsidising or defending you any more?

    What industries do you intend attracting and how?

    What sort of tax rates do you envisage?

    How do you intend making up the deficit in health, infrastructure, education spending?

    Will you join the euro or peg the Ulster pound to sterling?

    Will the Reform churches hold a special place in the new constitution or will you still try and remain as a monarchy with the Queen as head of state?

    I take it this new independent Ulster will be for British people only so what happens to the 40+ who vote for unification?

    What happens if the majority don’t want an Ulster? Would you advocate violence to keep this Ulster of yours not Irish even if the majority considered themselves Irish?

    Finally, do you really want to live in a state run by loyalist paramilitaries as you seem to imply and do you actually believe it will be a success, a beacon for foreign direct investment, a cultural goliath of the 21st Century?

    I await details of your vision with interest.

  • Dave

    denny boy

    “The difference is of course that the Netherlandish people are broad minded.”

    Unlike to Irish? I have to say the The North is catchy but then again so is independence

  • dawgface911

    listen to dave getting all excited about the armalite and ballot box II !! he looks forward to the day when orange protestant terrorists get votes. Then an independant ulster !! jesus dave

  • Denny Boy

    ‘”The difference is of course that the Netherlandish people are broad minded.”‘

    “Unlike to Irish?”

    Yes, Dave, unlike the Irish. I play no favourites here 😉

  • dawgface911

    ” we have come home, but don’t see ourselves as Irish “

    so your home , but you havn’t yet decided who you are. and your stikeing out for Independance !!

    ” hopefully negotiated “

    very threatening dave, scary.

    independance ? why ? because you need liberated ? this is a discredeted idea.

  • Richard

    Wrong again penny, you condemned yourself as a racist.

  • dawgface911

    johnny adair claimed ‘ simply the best ‘
    trimble claimed ‘ simply british ‘
    you guys can try ‘ simply independent ‘
    tra la la la la !

  • Raff

    (Dear Lord please grant me the strength to understand the mind numbing bigotry disguised as the search for equality as written by Dave)

    Ok Dave Northern Ireland is NOT a country nor is Ulster be it the full 9 counties of the province of Ulster or the gerrymandered 6 counties designed to maintain the protestant ascendancy and prevent the unforgivable situation of Roman Catholics EVER having parity.

    Many settlers here were also English so please do not leave them out. I don’t believe any one is calling for the Irish in America to leave but then again the Irish are not systematically preventing Americans from attending worship, paint bombing and petrol bombing their homes nor rioting because they cannot display triumphantly over there neighbours (or is that neighbors!).

    ‘One land mass, two tribes, we are better going our separate ways and with a little luck and hard work from good people someday we can become good neighbours’. – If that statement was made regarding black people or Jews the howls of derision would be deafening, however since it is only about Catholics/Fenians/taigs/Papish/(please insert sectarian slur), by an admitted Unionist it is deemed acceptable, – go figure!

    People seem quick to label Penny a racist, although she has only turned the ‘pan-nationalist front’ idea around. How often have we heard Messer’s Paisley and Co. rant about the evil of the Roman church, the IRA, Sinn Fein, SDLP and the nationalist people and how they are ALL working together to destroy Ulster! Also we see the recent Love Ulster campaign headed by UDA and UVF and DUP and PROTESTANT papers IN MAINLY PROTESTANT AREAS!!

    People are very quick to point out IRA/SF, fair enough but I would suggest the correct term is PIRA/PSF but then again I just like things to be labelled correctly, however I am sure that the good Unionist people who DID NOT vote for terrorists would point out if Ian Paisley was involved with the Third Force or if Willie Mc Crea was involved with the LVF or if convicted UVF men were DUP councillors or if David Trimble associated with known Loyalist Terrorists, wouldn’t they?

  • Dave

    Hi George

    I will answer all your questions, although I do not believe in their sincerity. I am sure that others could provide better answers to the questios you pose nonethe less I will state my point of view

    Dave,
    We don’t call it Ulster because you decided on calling it Northern Ireland instead. Not our decision you know so don’t blame us just because 80 years later you don’t like the Ireland in your name because it makes people think who don’t know better that you might be a little Irish as a result.

    ++No George your wrong, Republicans/Nationalist as a minority (they keep reminding us of this fact) choose to call Northern Ireland the “North” for whatever reason they choose, I choose to call it Ulster that’s fair isn’t it?++

    You are British but seem to want independence from Britain because it can’t deliver for your, I suppose, higher standard of Britishness.

    ++You suppose wrongly? I want Independence because all other options have failed, I want the British and the Irish to keep their nose of the affairs of Ulster, I want to remove the cause of conflict, British Government presence and SF/IRA terrorists++

    Maybe you can put some meat in that sandwich and answer some simple questions if you really believe it to be an option.

    Will you be asking for Donegal, Monaghan and Cavan back from the Irish Republic for your brave new Ulster or will you be handing over Derry, Tyrone, Armagh and Fermanagh and creating an Ulster Lite as we go our separate ways?

    ++Six Counties George, no more and no less remember I said negotiated Independence

    Can you tell me where you envisage this border to be and how you intend paying to defend it considering the British won’t be subsidising or defending you any more?

    ++ The border would not change.The aspiration of a United Ireland would be dead as the British Government presence would have been removed. I have no idea why the borde would need to be defended.. do you? ++

    What industries do you intend attracting and how? Car industries, IT, Manufacturing, Tourism, Christ it only a small country, George. 1.7 million our needs are little. A low corporate tax is a great incentive to major companies.

    What sort of tax rates do you envisage?

    ++ 30% flat rate, corporate tax at 6%++

    How do you intend making up the deficit in health, infrastructure, education spending?

    ++long term loans the same as any other country, George. recouped via flat rate tax++

    Will you join the euro or peg the Ulster pound to sterling?

    Ulster pound to sterling. of course++

    Will the Reform churches hold a special place in the new constitution or will you still try and remain as a monarchy with the Queen as head of state?

    ++Church and state to be separate,with the Queen as head of state++

    I take it this new independent Ulster will be for British people only so what happens to the 40+ who vote for unification?

    ++No George it will not be for British people only, it will be an Independent Country for all to play their part. If 40+% who vote for “unification” lose out to a democratic vote they should do the democratic thing abide by the voice of the majority++

    What happens if the majority don’t want an Ulster? Would you advocate violence to keep this Ulster of yours not Irish even if the majority considered themselves Irish?

    ++No George I would abide by the will of the majority.If the majority of people in Ulster vote for unification I would play my part to make it work.++

    Finally, do you really want to live in a state run by loyalist paramilitaries as you seem to imply and do you actually believe it will be a success, a beacon for foreign direct investment, a cultural goliath of the 21st Century?

    ++Should Ulster fall and be run by paramilitires Loyalists or Republican I would expect world powers to do something about it, you have taken what I said out of context.The people of Ulster do not and have not voted for paramilitary organisation to be their political voice.So far only the Republican/Nationalists have voted for a paramilitary organisation to be their political voice.++

    I await details of your vision with interest.

    Maybe not the greatest answers to your questions but they are honest.

    Maybe you could answer this question? Why do people vote for SF/IRA a terrorist organisation when they have the option to vote for the SDLP who have the same goal, unification, via the democratic process?

  • Dave

    Hi George

    I will answer all your questions, although I do not believe in their sincerity. I am sure that others could provide better answers to the questios you pose nonethe less I will state my point of view

    Dave,
    We don’t call it Ulster because you decided on calling it Northern Ireland instead. Not our decision you know so don’t blame us just because 80 years later you don’t like the Ireland in your name because it makes people think who don’t know better that you might be a little Irish as a result.

    ++No George your wrong, Republicans/Nationalist as a minority (they keep reminding us of this fact) choose to call Northern Ireland the “North” for whatever reason they choose, I choose to call it Ulster that’s fair isn’t it?++

    You are British but seem to want independence from Britain because it can’t deliver for your, I suppose, higher standard of Britishness.

    ++You suppose wrongly? I want Independence because all other options have failed, I want the British and the Irish to keep their nose of the affairs of Ulster, I want to remove the cause of conflict, British Government presence and SF/IRA terrorists++

    Maybe you can put some meat in that sandwich and answer some simple questions if you really believe it to be an option.

    Will you be asking for Donegal, Monaghan and Cavan back from the Irish Republic for your brave new Ulster or will you be handing over Derry, Tyrone, Armagh and Fermanagh and creating an Ulster Lite as we go our separate ways?

    ++Six Counties George, no more and no less remember I said negotiated Independence

    Can you tell me where you envisage this border to be and how you intend paying to defend it considering the British won’t be subsidising or defending you any more?

    ++ The border would not change.The aspiration of a United Ireland would be dead as the British Government presence would have been removed. I have no idea why the borde would need to be defended.. do you? ++

    What industries do you intend attracting and how? Car industries, IT, Manufacturing, Tourism, Christ it only a small country, George. 1.7 million our needs are little. A low corporate tax is a great incentive to major companies.

    What sort of tax rates do you envisage?

    ++ 30% flat rate, corporate tax at 6%++

    How do you intend making up the deficit in health, infrastructure, education spending?

    ++long term loans the same as any other country, George. recouped via flat rate tax++

    Will you join the euro or peg the Ulster pound to sterling?

    Ulster pound to sterling. of course++

    Will the Reform churches hold a special place in the new constitution or will you still try and remain as a monarchy with the Queen as head of state?

    ++Church and state to be separate,with the Queen as head of state++

    I take it this new independent Ulster will be for British people only so what happens to the 40+ who vote for unification?

    ++No George it will not be for British people only, it will be an Independent Country for all to play their part. If 40+% who vote for “unification” lose out to a democratic vote they should do the democratic thing abide by the voice of the majority++

    What happens if the majority don’t want an Ulster? Would you advocate violence to keep this Ulster of yours not Irish even if the majority considered themselves Irish?

    ++No George I would abide by the will of the majority.If the majority of people in Ulster vote for unification I would play my part to make it work.++

    Finally, do you really want to live in a state run by loyalist paramilitaries as you seem to imply and do you actually believe it will be a success, a beacon for foreign direct investment, a cultural goliath of the 21st Century?

    ++Should Ulster fall and be run by paramilitires Loyalists or Republican I would expect world powers to do something about it, you have taken what I said out of context.The people of Ulster do not and have not voted for paramilitary organisation to be their political voice.So far only the Republican/Nationalists have voted for a paramilitary organisation to be their political voice.++

    I await details of your vision with interest.

    Maybe not the greatest answers to your questions but they are honest.

    Maybe you could answer this question? Why do people vote for SF/IRA a terrorist organisation when they have the option to vote for the SDLP who have the same goal, unification, via the democratic process?

  • Raff

    Dave, you seem to have everything sorted out and have a new and shining Ulster (6 not 9 counties) ready to beam out rays of cooperation and love uniting all those who love these 6 (not 9) counties. Excuse me but does your Dr know you have stopped taking your medication?!

    ‘I choose to call it Ulster that’s fair isn’t it?++’ – Well if that is the case I chose to call it the ‘6 gerrymandered and occupied counties of the North East of Ireland’, that’s fair isn’t it?++

    ‘want Independence because all other options have failed, – well we haven’t had the ‘6 gerrymandered and occupied counties of the North East of Ireland’ reunited with the rest of Ireland and a proper period of adjustment and a decent government in control, have we? Aslo you stated earlier you were a parent. If that is the case, I am sure you try things more than once before giving up, I mean if you try to teach your children respect for others, and they don’t learn or grasp the issue straight away, you don’t stop teaching them, do you?

    ++Church and state to be separate, with the Queen as head of state++ – I do not, and I am sure this is not an issue divided along religious or political lines, want a British Queen, nor any royalty as a figure head.

    ‘……….Republican/Nationalists have voted for a paramilitary organisation to be their political voice.++

    I await details of your vision with interest’.

    – I have given you some very, very brief details on that and you have as of yet failed to respond. I await YOUR answer to that.

    Why do people vote for SF/IRA a terrorist organisation when they have the option to vote for the SDLP who have the same goal, unification, via the democratic process?

    – Maybe I can offer a brief answer. Many people on this part of the island support Sinn Fein for a number of reasons. They are not the same politically as SDLP, they have a different Genesis, they hold different political and social beliefs to the SDLP and for many the history of their struggle for civil liberty and freedom is mirrored in the people and the areas from which the receive votes. Why do people vote DUP when the can vote UUP?

    I feel that you are either a) someone who is politically and socially and historically naive/uneducated, or b) someone who knows what they are talking about and are using this forum as a means to promote misunderstanding. Which are you?

  • Dread Cthulhu

    lib2016: The unionist/protestant part of our society has the same ethnic background as the nationalist/catholic part. ‘penny’ is no racist for pointing out that a section of our community is not looking too good at the moment.

    Not to get all technical on you, the Protestant majority on that which was the “Ulster Plantation,” if I recall my history, are the descendants of Scots Presbyterians and English, not Irish. While I agree that there is little “rascist” to be arguing, to suggest they are ethnically “the same” is a trifle misleading. Were it not for the ethnic cleansing of the Plantation, there would be a Catholic majority in the north.

  • George

    Dave,
    I was interested, otherwise I wouldn’t have asked. “Independence for NI” people are thin on the ground and the 6-county non-Protestant homeland variety is even thinner.

    “++No George your wrong, Republicans/Nationalist as a minority (they keep reminding us of this fact) choose to call Northern Ireland the “North” for whatever reason they choose, I choose to call it Ulster that’s fair isn’t it?++ “

    The official name is Northern Ireland, not Ulster. Unfair maybe but that’s the way it is and that was the decision of unionists all those years ago.
    Maybe you can try rename the new independent place Ulster and see how you go but don’t try rename Northern Ireland today.

    “++You suppose wrongly? I want Independence because all other options have failed, I want the British and the Irish to keep their nose of the affairs of Ulster, I want to remove the cause of conflict, British Government presence and SF/IRA terrorists++”

    The united Ireland option hasn’t been tried either so it hasn’t failed. The full Ireland in the union had 121 years, partition 84 years and running. Can we not have a few years to try the united option?

    “++Six Counties George, no more and no less remember I said negotiated Independence”

    Fair enough if you can manage it. I won’t argue and I accept the border wouldn’t be an issue if everyone on both sides were happy.

    You would follow the same economic policies as the Irish Republic but not with us? In fact, you would undercut us in corporate tax! Can’t argue with your economic policies although I’m sure the Irish Republic would try make life difficult.

    Maybe this is just because I’ve grown up in a Republic but how can you be independent and swear allegiance to the head of another state. I don’t understand Canada either, by the way.

    And why do you say that you want no British interference and then say the Queen will be head of state and the Bank Of England controls your currency?

    “Maybe you could answer this question? Why do people vote for SF/IRA a terrorist organisation when they have the option to vote for the SDLP who have the same goal, unification, via the democratic process?”

    I don’t know, that’s happening in a different country, Northern Ireland. SF only got 5 out of 166 seats in my country’s last parliamentary election.

    I would assume it has something to do with the alienation that those people feel towards the state they live in.

    It might also be because they, rightly or wrongly, don’t believe SF to be a terrorist organisation. Not so long ago the SDLP were terrorist appeasers and subversives too you know.

  • Dave

    FAO Raff

    If you can’t be civil in you post, don’t be too surprised if it’s not answered.

  • Raff

    Dave, if I Have not treated you with the respect you deserve then I completely wholeheartedly and without reservation offer you my sincerest apologies. I did not come here to offend; if you point out where I was not civil I can learn to avoid the same error in future. If I have responded in what you see as an uncivilised matter, is it possible I was reacting to something inflammatory in your posts?

    That said, I would be grateful to hear your replies on my posts.

  • Dave

    Hi George

    The official name is Northern Ireland, not Ulster. Unfair maybe but that’s the way it is and that was the decision of unionists all those years ago.
    Maybe you can try rename the new independent place Ulster and see how you go but don’t try rename Northern Ireland today.

    ++ Reps/Nats refer to Northern Ireland as the (North) this in my opinion removes the identity of Northern Ireland, I agree that (Northern Ireland is the worst possible name to have been given to this land, I will do my bit trying to change this by referring to northern Ireland as Ulster. I have lost count of the number of countries which have changed their name for good and valid reasons. Northern Ireland is a name I do not like as it implies that I am Irish, which i am not, I am an Ulsterman though. a moot point to some, important to me.++

    The united Ireland option hasn’t been tried either so it hasn’t failed. The full Ireland in the union had 121 years, partition 84 years and running. Can we not have a few years to try the united option?

    ++ That is the problem George. A forced marriage is no good and a “forced United Ireland” would be just that, no good. The question at each and every referendum has been the same, do you wish to remain part of the U.K. or do you want a U.I. I don’t wish for either I want my Country to be Independent from both Dublin and London. Is that asking too much? Do the people of Ulster have to be ruled by Dublin or London? They have never been asked it has not been on the political agenda and I think that it is time it was put to the Government.

    Should the people of Ulster be asked tomorrow to choose Independence or United Ireland and given no other option they would in my opinion choose independence?

    Sometime in the future the people of Ulster may not wait to be asked but take it on themselves and opt for Independence, as many believe that a United Ireland would in fact be a United IRAland.

    The British Government could place this on the political agenda, why don’t they? Is the establishment afraid that Ulster and its people will a little help might just make and thrive and thereby be embarrassed that it was their misrule which divided the people of Ulster?

    A united Ireland is an option for Irish people not so rosy for the Ulster people++

    You would follow the same economic policies as the Irish Republic but not with us? In fact, you would undercut us in corporate tax! Can’t argue with your economic policies although I’m sure the Irish Republic would try make life difficult.

    ++ I have no problems with trade from or to the Republic nor do I mind the Republic of Ireland being competitive. Should it be the case that life was being made difficult by the ROI against a newly fledged sovereign state then one would have to ask why would they do such a thing what would be the motive?

    Maybe this is just because I’ve grown up in a Republic but how can you be independent and swear allegiance to the head of another state. I don’t understand Canada either, by the way.

    Canada has dominion status as do many other countries, I would be looking for something unique for the people of Ulster but dominion status would be a good start. Take Gibraltar as an example 98% Catholic 100% British and they are very happy as they are, thank you. They don’t want to be part of Spain or the United Kingdom++

    And why do you say that you want no British interference and then say the Queen will be head of state and the Bank Of England controls your currency?

    ++Look at Canada and Australia? the bank of England do a good job and we would be foolish not to follow their lead which is different to Interference. ++

  • Raff

    DAVE,
    If you are unable to complete satisfactorily, or otherwise, an argument at least have enough respect to bow out gracefully rather than act like a child, with your ‘I am not talking to you attitude’. I have attempted to apologise but as is usual among those of the Unionist persuasion, unless all others agree 100% with them then they are wrong.

    You keep referring to the 6 counties as Ulster; please stop embarrassing yourself by demonstrating blind indifference, stubbornness and lack of knowledge. You also display an incredibly narrow and ill informed view of Republicanism, just to clarify; Republicans who want a united Ireland are also interested in an open and uncorrupted government, one COMPLETELY unlike any Fianna Fail, Fianna Gael, etc government, why do you think the Free State parties are so worried about PSF?

    No doubt the only reply to me will be ‘see I told you, you were not civil’ well no harm to you but the days of the croppy doffing his hat to his Unionist overlord are thankfully over. Again you show the inability of those opposed to a united Ireland to have respect or understanding for others.

    I hope for your children’s sake that they are afforded more respect and dignity than you afford others!!

  • Dave

    Raff.

    I did not have a problem answering the questions put to me by George, he was civil, you were not.

    If you wish to communicate do so properly.

    I have no need of the Yellow or Red card system on Slugger. I supply my own.

    Try and learn from you mistake, don’t be rude or try to deride a person’s opinion. Just ask the question without the jab.

  • Raff

    You still haven’t answered my questions so I will supply them ‘sans jab’.

    1. Why do you refer to the 6 counties as Ulster when the Provence of Ulster has 9 counties?

    2. Why do people vote DUP when the can vote UUP? (Please read earlier post to understand context of question).

    3. Why are you justifying Loyalist violence and using it to condemn Republicans?

    4. You are quick to point out what you perceive as the ‘wrongness’ of Provisional Sinn Fein and their links with Provisional IRA, what do you have to say about UUP AND DUP connections with Loyalist terrorists?

    You have not pointed out what exactly about my posts you do not like, please do.

    On a final note, you accuse me of not taking on board peoples opinions, yet you state ‘Why do people vote for SF/IRA a terrorist organisation’ many do not view these organisations as terrorists, is that not a matter of opinion?