Blackmen return to Donegal in peace…

Before it passed unremarked about, the last of the summer’s big Orange Loyal Order marches, took place on Saturday without any significant disruptions, (apart from the Armagh/East Tyrone demonstration) of the Royal Black Preceptories. The ‘Blackmen’s’ Parade in Donegal, the first since the 1930s passed peacefully in Raphoe. Maybe some of them spent the rest of the weekend chilling at the Fleadh Ceoil up the road in Letterkenny?

124 thoughts on “Blackmen return to Donegal in peace…”

  1. Cladycowboy

    “is it relevant today”

    If large groups of people wish to mark it then they must see a relevance. Momentum alone cannot keep something going for any length of time.

    I personally think the OO has to be more about parades and that parades need improvement e.g. the recent developments of more family enterntainmen, complimentary programmes of events to the parades. Also the OO should take inspiration from the faith based networks in the USA for the type of work it could carry out.

    “If you truly believe in this rights agenda for parading, then would you accept RM Easter parades past your front door, shall we say 3 times a year? Would you cheer or even join in as you are permitted to do so”

    1. Yes republicans have the right to march past my house especially if it is on a main arterial route or centre of a village and town. As to the offence stuff, there is no right not to be offended in fact the reverse a pluralist society requires tolerance of views you disagree with. (By the way is Easter 3 times a year now 😉 )
    2. No I would not cheer or participate. I don’t identify or support Irish republicanism. The dates have no significance to me. I lost three friends during the Troubles as a result of republican murders. If someone was organising a peaceful protest I would probably go along to it but only if it was peaceful and did not try to deny the parade the route.
    3. I am not expecting people from a different religious, political or national identity to support participate or enjoy in Loyal order parades. All I ask is that they are tolerated.

  2. clady

    Just spotted this

    “P.S I’m sure you posted on another thread that you were British residing in Ireland, were you born in Britain, whereabouts?”

    No you must have me confused with someone else born, raised and lived in (apart from 4 months I lived in Boston and New York) Ulster, United Kingdom.

  3. Fair Deal

    Your exasperation is quite understandable.

    Curious

    I thought you raised a good point, so I intended it as a compliment. I don’t approve of those who use patronising language here, so I hope I didn’t seem that way.

  4. fair_deal

    If that is how you truly feel with regards to complete tolerance regardless of offence caused then you’re a better man than most.

    I’d respectfully suggest that the majority of OO members or OO parade viewers would take offence to Easter parades past thier door and if say after 20years of peaceful protests there is a parade during the time any of their friends has been murdered by people who share the same ideology as those parading, i’m sure we’d see boiling point and disturbances arising.

    Even if protests are kept peaceful, which is hard, either the protest usually fades away or it becomes violent, we have a situation whereby neighbours are constantly offending or taking offence at each other, not ideal for building a peaceful society.

    Easter parades could happen evry day of the easter week to commemerate the rising so it could be as much as 7! 😉

    I do honestly strive for a peacful Ireland, if everyone was as tolerant as you profess you are then there would be no problem but most people aren’t and so i would rather there were less parades of any ilk and in areas where people want to view them.

    The point of relevancy is i think relevant?! Imagine two friends, one catholic and one protestant who share many views on the world and the catholic says lets go to this ‘march to End world poverty and people trafficking’ and his protestant mate says no, i’ve got to go and commemerate the fall of absolute monarchy, we’d hardly be all moving/facing in the same direction or living in the same century and division will always be our lot. Don’t you agree?

  5. clady
    Fair enough.

    but
    “I also believe that these parades in mixed areas will always cause tension in their current form.”

    Your use of ‘current form’ is interesting. Some people simply say “no Orange feet on (insert name) Road”. Others seem to demand that there are talks with residents, seemingly the talks dont actually have to be about anything but it seems the actual art of conversation is what they seek before they will accept their Protestant neighbours expressing their culture and religion. You seem to want some change in ‘form’ of the parades. What exactly is it about a Loyal Order parade that you would change before you think they wont cause tension.

    And by the way, if we simply labelled an event because it “raised tensions” or sought to have it banned for doing that then there are a whole host of things we could add. The parade itself of course doesnt raise any tensions. Those seem only to be raised by people who are going out of their way to be annoyed.

    You mentioned about parades in ‘mixed’ areas also. We all hear the endless problems over how NI is becoming more and more segregated with less and less people living in truly mixed areas. Do you not happen to think that this is one of the reasons why, when one community is told it cannot celebrate its culture in a mixed area and so they are then forced to leave or decide to leave and live in an area where they feel more wanted. Intimidation can take many different forms, and the repression of someones culture and traditions is just another form of that.

    There are people who will argue that having a Chapel or a GAA pitch in a mixed area also raises tensions. Are they correct too and should they move off to areas where they are more ‘wanted’?

  6. Yerman,
    You say that all churches and all religions will exclude people.
    For a couple of alternatives, see Unitarian Universalist Association Principles and Purposes and About the Bahá’í Faith. Unfortunately, these are not the world’s dominant religions.

    CladyCowboy,
    You say that most people aren’t … tolerant. You are probably right. That is why some of us in the USA spend so much time trying to keep church and state separate, because few religions are as tolerant as the Unitarians and the Baha’is.

  7. “Also the OO should take inspiration from the faith based networks in the USA for the type of work it could carry out.”

    Suggest you take a look at the gospel tracts “Know Surrender”, “King William” and “No Surrender” at http://www.orange-order.co.uk

    on hte main menu on right hand side

  8. “Why would anyone want to march in an area where they are clearly not wanted or appreciated by the local populace” -cladycowboy’s “thoughts”

    Er, perhaps because it’s their area too? Equally why would anyone ant to play Gaelic in an area where they’re not wanted or appreciated-like the strets around Croke Park? :0)

    If Portadown people want to hold a procession in Portadown that isn’t by it’s nature illegal -i.e. inciting hatred or supporting paramilitarism, what business is it of a majority of part of that area to prevent it? if they don’t like it protest peacefully. If you want to commemorate Pearse the Paedophile up the Shankill, go ahead. if the locals object, let them do to peacefully. Better still, see if any local people want to organise it . Because the Raphoe demonstration was organised by people from Raphoe; the field was owned by a farmer from Raphoe; and the invitation was to bring people to visit raphoe- most of whom I’ll guarantee had never been there before. And in spite of the attempted intimidation and arson, I bet the chippies, garages, and pubs would want a day like Saturday every year. And here’s a little secret- if all that motivates Prods is a desire to offend the other sort, the best way to overcome them is to ignore them. Then they’ll be so pissed off Orangeism will disappear within a generation. And even you know that won’t happen.

    What you want is nice little ethnic communities with “not a Prod about the place”- or only those who know their place. have you ever thought how much your thought processes are like the morons torching chapels in Ballymena?

  9. “I’d respectfully suggest that the majority of OO members or OO parade viewers would take offence to Easter parades past thier door and if say after 20years of peaceful protests there is a parade during the time any of their friends has been murdered by people who share the same ideology as those parading, i’m sure we’d see boiling point and disturbances arising.”

    1. I never denied there wouldn’t be offence simply that offence was not the basis of denial for a right. No not everyone is in the same place as me neither have I held this position my entire life but if people genuinely want to share here it is were we have to go.
    2. I realise what I am saying is not easy but we are not going to ban different expressions here so we have to learn to manage them without resorting to violence. Its the MLK quote about diasgreeing without being violently disagreeable.

    “whereby neighbours are constantly offending or taking offence at each other”

    This is why offence is a terrible basis for anything. The two communities are experts at finding things they don’t like about each other. If we weren’t arguing about parades I have little doubt we’d be arguing about something else.

    “Imagine two friends, one catholic and one protestant who share many views on the world and the catholic says lets go to this ‘march to End world poverty and people trafficking’ and his protestant mate says no, i’ve got to go and commemerate the fall of absolute monarchy, we’d hardly be all moving/facing in the same direction or living in the same century and division will always be our lot. Don’t you agree?”

    What about the Prod saying I am busy that day any chance of organising it on a different date? We don’t have to do everything together but we can do somethings together. Communities are just like people sometimes a person wants to be on their own, sometimes with their family, sometimes with people they identify with and sometimes they want to get away from it all with different people.

  10. fair_deal, yerman

    Where I grew up, keek means shit (does it come from the Gaelic cac, I wonder)

    Where my parents grew up keek means peep.

    “Have a keek at that load of keek”

    “There’s nane sae blind as them that winna see.
    Thaur’s nane sae blinn as thaim at winnae see.

    Grade D Could do better”

    Grade E for the misguided attempt at correction.

    Fail for failing to spot dialect – “winna”, if you want to become a serious student of scots you need to learn a bit more about the diversity of dialect.

  11. Biffo

    Ulster-Scots is an offshoot of Eastern Scots which uses ‘nae’ not the literary na.

    I’ll check on the origins of keik when I get home tonight for you (the most common Scots spelling is keech).

  12. Does all this “correcting” of Ulster Scots mean that posters are going to start correcting one another’s English as well? Where will it end? And it’s hardly netiquette as we know it, is it?

    “There’s nane sae blind as them that winna see.
    Thaur’s nane sae blinn as thaim at winnae see.

    I mean no offence but surely either of the above is nothing more than a rustic pronunciation of English. I grew up in Dublin and some of my friends spoke with an accent that would probably be incomprehensible to, say, a native of Kentucky.

    Dere’s nun so bloyend as dem da’ doh wanna see.

    See what I mean? A new language. I think I’ll call it Artanese :0)

    BTW Biffo:

    “Where I grew up, keek means shit (does it come from the Gaelic cac, I wonder)”

    English also has the word “cack”, meaning shit. I believe several European languages have a similar word.

  13. Denny Boy

    I’ve heard English people using cac/cack about a year or so ago, I haven’t hear it recently.

    What other Euro languages have it – definately not German or French – where did the English get it?

    fair_deal

    “Ulster-Scots is an offshoot of Eastern Scots which uses ‘nae’ not the literary na.”

    That’s incorrect. Ulster Scots is an offshoot of west-central scots, or lallans. Hence the use of words like “wee’un” not “bairn” (it makes sense when you look at the geography).

  14. Biffo

    “What other Euro languages have it – definately not German or French – where did the English get it?”

    I know for a fact that German has “Kack” and Dutch “kak”. I suspect they both got it from Norwegian but don’t speak much of it.

    I’ll try to find out. Fun, this.

  15. slug

    We are discussing the need to compromise the rights of one community to peace and quiet with unfettered acess to their own homes so that a belligerent miority can have triumphalist marches through areas where they are not welcome.

    There is no “equal integrity to the basic aspirations of both sides” as you put it.

    It’s a fair tactic, in my opinion, to point out that a part of the unionist community is disgracing itself yet again and compromising it’s own position. You may dislike me for doing so but I notice that you haven’t denied the facts which I’ve posted.

    The unionist community is unpopular abroad and militant Orange marches have contributed to that unpopularity.

  16. Biffo

    My apologies to the Norse. Looks like it was the anally obsessed Roman who started it all:

    “Cack

    \Cack\, v. i. [OE. cakken, fr. L. cacare; akin to Gr. ??????, and to OIr. cacc dung; cf. AS. cac.] To ease the body by stool; to go to stool. –Pope”

    Notice how Old Irish is mentioned?

  17. Denny Boy

    Thanks for that – cacc, keek, cacare – fascinating stuff indeed.

    I wonder – how far does this go back – what’s the Sanskrit for shit?

    I also like that phrase – “to go to stool”.

  18. darthrumsfeld

    ‘What you want is nice little ethnic communities with “not a Prod about the place”- or only those who know their place. have you ever thought how much your thought processes are like the morons torching chapels in Ballymena?’

    Well if we follow logically from the first sentence surely you should know whether i have or haven’t thought about the second sentence, as it seems you can see my inner eye.

    1. I would think my thought processes were like the morons torching chapels in Ballymena if i was thinking of torching Protestant churches in Clady. I don’t have these thought processes so no i have no comparison with these people, but you’d know that already obviously, being my personal mind-reader.
    2. I think the AOH is the only comparable body to the OO so please leave the GAA at the red herring stall. I’d rather for the interests of the public peace that minimal if any of these organisations parades were allowed in areas were people took offence to it.

    ‘If Portadown people want to hold a procession in Portadown that isn’t by it’s nature illegal -i.e. inciting hatred or supporting paramilitarism, what business is it of a majority of part of that area to prevent it? if they don’t like it protest peacefully. If you want to commemorate Pearse the Paedophile up the Shankill, go ahead. if the locals object, let them do to peacefully’

    Here you start of in an admirable mood of tolerance, as voiced earlier by fair_deal. However, a sentence later and you’ve taken offence at the very thought of this parade by slandering one of the leaders of the rising. If you utter this at the mere thought of the parade, how long do you think this peaceful protest of Shankill residents,(while Tricolours fly, Republican songs and Catholic Hymns are sung, banners bearing Pearse’s image are held aloft and at the back you spot a few sectarian catholics shipped in from Glasgow mouthing ‘PIRA’ silently to the protesters) will remain so before someone shouts ‘Pearse the Paedo’ and public peace is lost and disturbances ensue which will be remembered for the next march up the Shankill and tensions are raised even higher and the domino effect snowballs?
    I would say 100% guarantee of this and so suggest you re-think the parades issue, if you do think that is.

    fair_deal

    I like to believe i have a bit of faith in the goodness of human nature but you are displaying more faith in it than i can about tolerance of certain parades on either side. I need only point you to darthrumsfeld who has professed to be as tolerant as you do over parades then utters something that would cause public unrest in the very same paragraph. This is why i object to these parades, nothing else.

  19. Biffo

    “That’s incorrect. Ulster Scots is an offshoot of west-central scots”

    Please do read the posts if you look at my 11.56 post you will see I spotted my error and corrected it immediately

    lib2016

    “compromise the rights of one community”

    No rights are compromised by a public procession. A public procession is actually the exercise of a number of rights. The claim of a clash of rights is a myth. Any claims of clashes have been addressed by human rights case law.

  20. Biffo

    “I wonder – how far does this go back – what’s the Sanskrit for shit?”

    Some folks think that’s where “khaki” comes from: earth- or shit-coloured.

    “I also like that phrase – “to go to stool”.”

    Me too. I’m glad you didn’t use the phrase “ad cathedra” where Pope was concerned :0)

    BTW This is more fun than ad nauseam talk about Blackmen and their silly parades….

  21. cladycowboy

    I’m not your personal mind reader- too small to keep me occupied, I fear – but I can clearly see that you won’t extend tolerance to a group which exercises its culture in a way it chooses, which obviously inconveniences many other people for a short time. You know , the way GAA matches inconvenience the residents of the streets around Croke Park, but most people will thole, although they grumble. Or indeed Windsor Park for that matter, before you get all touchy about the GAA.

    I don’t presume to tell the GAA it’s not welcome in my town, even though I don’t identify with its ethos, I’m inconvenienced by the traffic illegally parked in the street during matches, and I’m not wild about some of the drunken urinating after the bhoys leave the clubhouse at two in the morning with a few lusty rebel ballads to waken the locals. Of course I could just say that I speak for the host community,and our permission was never asked for this offensive behaviour, and I could form a residents’ group with a few of my mates,and we could have a great time protesting at the public’s expense (literally).

    Cos it’s really inconvenient having them about, so it is.

    As you might say- Why would they want to play a stupid game on Sunday when there’s proper football on Sky, and they get about three spectators? But then I think “Hey, if they wanna do it, what’s it to do with me? I’ll just take another road and avoid the traffic. I could hear just as much noise if I lived beside the pub at chucking out time. I’ll even grit my teeth when they stick up a tricolour on their wobbly flag pole and crank up the gramaphone for a reedy recording of the Soldier’s Song on the rare occassions they get a bigger game.

    Tolerance is such a bugger.

    I’ll bet there’s even some English people who wouldn’t want you- a British citizen indeed- living in “their” country, and I’ll bet you’ve even dared to express your Irish identity when you’re there- at Finsbury Park for the party, or on Paddy’s Day, or in a bar in Kilburn watching the All ireland on satellite. To which your average Cockney ( if such exists) might reasonably opine ” If you want to be Irish, do it in Ireland , mate”, and you – applying the logic of your post impeccably, would undoubtedly retort ” You’re quite right, me old china. I realise the manner in which I express my culture is confusing and irritating to you, and I will suspend it forthwith.Lawks a mercy guv maaybe it’s becos I’m a Londoner , innit?”

    BTW- I’ve read Pearse’s poetry- have you?. Even if he chooses to come back from the dead and sue me, I’ll take my chances. That was one warped mind.

  22. darthrumsfeld

    ”I’m not your personal mind reader- too small to keep me occupied, I fear – but I can clearly see that you won’t extend tolerance to a group which exercises its culture in a way it chooses, which obviously inconveniences many other people for a short time. You know , the way GAA matches inconvenience the residents of the streets around Croke Park, but most people will thole, although they grumble. Or indeed Windsor Park for that matter, before you get all touchy about the GAA.”

    As you’re discussing the GAA i’ll take your playing of the man instead of the ball on the shoulder, rather like Sean Cavanagh in full stride would take a shoulder from Gooch Cooper. I made the mind-reader remark as you did infer that i had a certain train of mind when i never stated such a thing. As for things being too small to occupy, it hasn’t stopped HMG occupying our wee country 😉

    Now despite my protestations about GAA not being comparable to OO, that it could only be AOH, you’ve picked the ball up (illegally, get your toe under it first) and ran and ran with it like Feirste O’Gump. I’ll have to pull you up for travelling i’m afraid, but hey with that red herring GAA, you’ve cooked up a dish that would make Rick Stein weep into his chowder, delicious. Now if we may put the GAA to the sea-bed…

    ”I don’t presume to tell the GAA it’s not welcome in my town, even though I don’t identify with its ethos, I’m inconvenienced by the traffic illegally parked in the street during matches”

    Not quite sure what you’re getting at here. Are you suggesting that all public events should be scrapped as traffic and population travel inconveniences you? No more visitors to Giants Causeway, Opera at the Waterfront, Rugby at Ravenhill, people commuting to work or The Fermanagh branch of Scientology joining up with the Belfast members for a conference, is that what you mean, a sort of Love Ulster but in your own parish?

    ”As you might say- Why would they want to play a stupid game on Sunday when there’s proper football on Sky, and they get about three spectators”

    Yet more incomparable rants. Those 3 spectators, or 65,000 on Sunday, actually travel and hand over cash to see this event. They want it. The people that object to OO/AOH marches past their doors don’t want these events. See the difference. These marchers keep coming, just like the guy who keeps trying to flog you tea-towels or dodgy fish, but still the people don’t want them. Tell you what, as Croke park is going to be opened soon to other sports etc, why don’t the OO/AOH hold parades around the pitch, you’d get 80,000 viewers to watch the thing, knowing that all of them have come and want to see the parade would undoubtedly lift the Orange/Green marchers and make it the best march yet, give Keith M a dilemma over whether to object to it.

    As to the implication that Londoners would find my expression of identity offensive, i’d have to refute this other than a few morons who have took offence at my accent, hardly a provocative expression of identity. I have been to the Fleadh, again i paid to get into a park hired for the sole purpose of this Irish festival, no-one inside it could with any sanity complain of taking offense to it. See the theme of set-aside space here? I’ve never attended the St. Patrick parade but one thing is for sure i would not take part in a republican parade with a ‘Fuck the Queen’ band through the streets of Eltham, there is a few Irish there but i think the majority would take murderous offence to this. Overall, because i haven’t provoked English Londoners, i’ve had little trouble from them and my Irish identity. Btw, do you think if the OO marched in London, the same Londoners would tell them to ‘fack awf’ back to Belfast?

    In conclusion, the OO/AOH offend various citizens as both, in my view correctly, are seen as sectarian organisations and there is direct conflict between the right to parade and the right to live free from sectarian agitation. I’d point you to the Police officer in charge of Agoghill who stated that sectarian attacks rise during the marching season. Linkage, real not imagined.

    As regards to tolerance. Yourself and fair_deal state that you are tolerant because you only grit your teeth at the sound of the Irish National anthemn and f_d because he’d only hold a peaceful protest at a Republican parade by his house.
    I’d suggest that this is not real tolerance. Its tolerance of a sort, tolerance of the law. If you weren’t tolerant of the law, who knows, you may smash that gramophone and f_d may try and block the parade. Real tolerance would be in evidence if you could listen to the Irish anthemn and not feel angry and if fair_deal could let the Republican parade go by and not go to the effort of protesting (how is protesting against something tolerant?). When you two can do that, come back to me and we can go through the parades again, until then no pope-kicking feet on Garvaghy streets and no wee boys blowing Pearse’s whistle up the Shankill.
    Go raibh maith agat

  23. As a matter of interest, how many parades are held by the AOH in NI each year? I have never seen one anywhere, north or south.

    How do the numbers compare with those held by loyal brethren?

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