Mixed messages…

DEBORAH McAleese reports that four men under UDA orders who attacked an ice cream vendor who refused to pay ‘protection money’ escaped custodial sentences. According to Mickey Donnelly, the judge was apparently bound by the constraints of the law (which absolves him to an extent). However, while the four loyalist monkeys are still free, questions must be raised about why the two UDA organ grinders were not facing charges, with Judge Neil McKay stating that “it is most regrettable, for whatever reason, these men were not
brought before the court and severely punished for their disgracful behaviour”. It’s not like the PSNI don’t know their identity – after all, the ice cream salesman was an undercover cop. At a time when there is concern in both the unionist and nationalist communities about who really controls the streets here – loyalist terrorists/gangsters or the PSNI – it sends out a very worrying message.

  • Brian

    There is nothing surprising about this decision by the judiciary in occupied Ireland. Remember, Unionist terrorists like Mo Courtney, Ibraham Shoukri and many other UDA/LVF and UVF scum are out and about despite facing charges as serious as murder. It’s patently obvious the the Orange judiciary needs to be transformed into a non-political bunch whose sole purpose is to apply the law and to do so in a fair manner.

  • glensman

    If the four ‘monkeys’ are allowed back on the streets unpunished what does this say to other people who attack innocent people under the orders of higher UDA figures? Just how does the government hope to loosen the UDA’s stranglehold over loyalist areas if UDA footsoldiers are to be free from prosecution?

  • Jimmy_Sands

    The decision as it appears in the report makes little sense. It appears the Court could not rule out the possibility that they did not initiate the attack but arrived on the scene with no knowledge of the UDA threat. Apparently freelance rioters should not be deterred from joing in by the possibility of being mistaken for terrorists.

  • beano

    That really makes for depressing reading. They should be making examples of the thugs, not freeing them and “Not in the same league” what the f**k is that about? A scumbag’s a scumbag.

    Brian, seriously, tell the truth, you’re on a wind up aren’t you?

  • Fanny

    ‘Orange judiciary’ – what a lemon.
    The reason the courts let loyalists off is because they let everyone off.

  • aquifer

    Unbelievable

    The ‘law’ licensing terrorists to extort and maim.
    Could you ask the undercover cop to do that decent job of work again?

    The judges suffer the collective vanity that the state here enjoys no effective competitor, whereas we all know if we try to build something or make honest money that these dogs will be sniffing and snarling around, to tax, terrorise, and if needs be to torture and kill us.

    Sentencing of any offences whatever connected to paramilitarism needs to make an example of the offender, because if we stand against these gangs, they will make a sorry example of us.

    Put the judge in the ice cream van next time.

    And if the van gets burn’t take his house and job off him.

    That’s the position local small businesses are in.

  • bertie

    What a bloody disgrace!

  • Confused

    “occupied Ireland”.

    Indeed, Brian, much of Ireland is occupied, but were you wishing to exclude reference to the tops of mountains and expanses of bog and abandoned islets and……….or were you just being ante-diluvian?

  • aquifer

    Unbelievable

    The ‘law’ licensing terrorists to extort and maim.
    Could you ask the undercover cop to do that decent job of work again?

    The judges suffer the collective vanity that the state here enjoys no effective competitor, whereas we all know if we try to build something or make honest money that these dogs will be sniffing and snarling around, to tax, terrorise, and if needs be to torture and kill us.

    Sentencing of any offences whatever connected to paramilitarism needs to make an example of the offender, because if we stand against these gangs, they will make a sorry example of us.

    Put the judge in the ice cream van next time.

    And if the van gets burn’t take his house and job off him.

    That’s the position local small businesses are in.

  • Yoda

    But locking them up won’t actually get to the roots of the matter: why these organisations continue to operate and recruit.

    Even if the so-called monkeys were actually locked up, what real systematic difference would it make? Very little.

    It seems to me to be pretty clear that prison has never been a deterrent for these types of organisations (it’s arguable that prison is usefully thought of as a deterrent at all).

    I also think there are some interesting questions to be asked about how the prevailing ethos within these paramilitary outfits affects so-called ordinary decent criminal behaviour.

  • bertie

    Their “ethos” is not going to become more law-abiding when they know that no matter what they do they will get away with it.

    At the very very least when they’re locked up they’re not attacking the icecream man

  • crat

    Gonzo,

    Is it not Deborah McAleese? Why the credit for Mickey?

  • bertie

    I’ve just realised what the defence was – they heard he was called Mr Whippy and thought that he was a submissive!
    it all makes sence now

  • Yoda

    Their “ethos” is not going to become more law-abiding when they know that no matter what they do they will get away with it.

    Way to miss the point, bertie.

  • S*uinter

    Vaucous vindication of violence against van victualler!!

    Does this mean that any prick (even if caught on video) can cite the fact that they are only acting as “footsoldiers” who are “not in the same league” as those individuals who orchestrate violence by way of mitigation?

    If so I await, with baited breath, the outcome of several pending cases in respect of public order offences which have occurred in and around the Ardoyne demographic in recent months.

  • Headmelter

    unbelievable.
    why the feck am i working 37 hrs a week?

  • Headmelter

    could someone please point me in the direction of the adverts for ‘community representative’this seems to be a pretty popular career move.

  • bertie

    Yoda

    Your point appeared to be that locking them up wasn’t the answer. My point was it’s a lot better than mot locking them up

  • spirit-level

    What a joke!
    The establishment treats UDA soldiers like British Army soldiers, a kind of embarrased silence and cover-up if any wrong-doings are exposed. Why don’t we hear that these 4 are being suspended on full pay while a futile investigation, with a biased judge takes place, it’d be closer to the truth. Disgusting.

  • willis

    What about some positive comment on the PSNI undercover operation?

  • bertie

    Willis

    You’re right, It is worthy of positive comment, but that really doesn’t measure up to the lunacy of the outcome.

  • Colm

    “But locking them up won’t actually get to the roots of the matter: why these organisations continue to operate and recruit.”

    Why does it have to be one or the other. It is perfectly possible to address social/political problems while also ensuring that criminality is dealt with harshly.

    At least while these individuals are locked up they can’t attack or intimidate ordinary people trying to earn a living. And, if they come out of prison to repeat their offences you put them back inside for a much much longer stretch.

  • bertie

    Cheering you on Colm!

  • Brian

    Merely stating the fact, Willis when I refer to the north eastern six counties as “occupied”. I happen to believe that the Irish people have the right do self-determine it’s own future. I know that Ireland was partitioned under the threat of “all out war” as issued by the then British PM, Lloyd George. I understand the strategy behind the Republican Movement’s implicit acknowledgement of the need for a majority in occupied Ireland to vote in favour of reunification before it becomes a reality. That will happen and in any case the Republican Movement speaks for itself and develops its own strategy.
    On another post Jimmy nobody the orangie says,
    “Apparently freelance rioters should not be deterred from joing in by the possibility of being mistaken for terrorists.” In other words, Mo Courtney is not a murderous bastard but a “freelance rioter” and neither of the Shoukris are UDA ring leaders. Believe what ya like man, but yer alone in yer beliefs.

  • willis

    Brian

    I dont see how your post follows. Never mind

    The story seems to beg more questions than it answers. Where did the video come from? Were the police filming the whole incident? Was “John” unable to identify the “capo di cornetto”?

  • Gonzo

    crat

    Quite right. Originally I just saw the Tele report, but the website only had the front page write-off, not the full story on page 2.

    So when I saw the second report on the UTV site, I updated the link and credited Mickey, who wrote the original copy.

    Apologies all round. I’ll correct that now.

  • aquifer

    Yoda

    “Even if the so-called monkeys were actually locked up, what real systematic difference would it make? Very little.”

    Lets try it. For every UDA big timer there are a shower of junior wannabees. Putting the dabblers away would shorten the queue of followers. Fewer followers, less paramilitary power, and the hard core are much easier to track. Also getting the young ones into the justice system makes it easier to press for intelligence on the big guys.

    The offenders were willing participants in a criminal conspiracy and must be held accountable on that basis for all the actions of the conspiracy. Do the one you catch.

    Why do drugs dealers in Americal live with their mothers. Because they like being in a business where people can make it really big, but on average, they are making pissy little money.

    Young men are comfortable with risk, but bad at probability. We need to shorten the apparent odds in a way they all understand.

    Over their lifetime, counting time in jail, criminals would be much better off working for a living. That lesson need to be driven home. Even if one or two young men have their lives complicated, hundreds of younger kids get a useful lesson for life.

  • DaithiO

    It seems that everybody knows who the “Brigadiers” of the UDA are (and when this changes as so often it does), sure don’t the clergy and the politicos sit down with them to discuss the parades etc.

    As the UDA is a proscribed organisation still, meaning that membership thereof is illegal, why then don’t the PSNI just go and arrest these leaders.

    All this talk of policing, and the way the UVF hoodies evicted people from their homes whilst the cops stood by make it obvious why the nationalist communities find it hard to accept the current policing arrangements.

  • horold lloyd

    aquifer,

    “Also getting the young ones into the justice system makes it easier to press for intelligence on the big guys.”

    There appears to already be a considerable wealth of ‘intelligence’ on the ‘hardcore’. What seems to be missing is the willingness of the psni to use it to good effect.
    you could draw two possible conclusions from this:

    1.the psni are happy with the current setup and ‘just pretend policing’ policy.
    2.the psni are no more professional than the keystone cops.

  • bertie

    This can hardly be an example of police incompetance. My Whippy was police. It was the other end of the CJS, that broke down.

  • harold lloyd

    point taken bertie but i was addressing a specific point made by aquifer. If you are to believe statements coming from the psni where they can seemingly tell when incidents are going to happen and they have a number of informants already in place why not act on existing information relating to the ‘hardcore’.Is there any need for more £10 touts to gather ‘intelligence’.Why can’t the psni focus on the problem and not the peripheral fall out. Remove the root and the weed withers.

  • bertie

    I’m not employed by the psni to put its case (but I wonder if a retrospective deal can be done), but there is a difference in intelligence and evidence that can stand up in court. Intelligence is a bit like the flare you send up – it tells you where to concentrate. However you would like to think that some of the intelligence would have lead to evidence. (Maybe that last bit has blown my chances of a bung!)

  • Yoda

    Why does it have to be one or the other. It is perfectly possible to address social/political problems while also ensuring that criminality is dealt with harshly.

    Aside from all the other assumptions you make in your post, I never said it should be “one or the other.”

    The point being that prison terms simply do not act as a deterrent. If they did there’d be no crime.

    I’m asking what can be done in addition to the usual: screaming for harsher laws, trying to scare the shite out of “young men,” talking about less tolerance, etc. Putting the boot in does not always work the way the wearer wishes.

    Not to ask these questions seems to avoid making the best effort at tackling the issue. There’s not much of an appetite for such a discussion in this thread, though.

  • bertie

    Yoda

    I don’t disagree with you but your previous posts could be interpreted that you were looking for alternatives not additions.

    In the backdrop of so much “loyalist” violence at the momment many of us unionists (I’ve no idea what you are), who have been vocal on what we want to do with republican terrorists are alert to the dangers of what we post seeming to show that we take a different stance when its un’uns.

    Re what other things need to be considered. I would not like to see this in terms of giving these thugs any legitimacy or justification.

  • Gonzo

    DaithiO said

    All this talk of policing, and the way the UVF hoodies evicted people from their homes whilst the cops stood by make it obvious why the nationalist communities find it hard to accept the current policing arrangements.

    Really? Is it not just as likely to be a demonstration to republicans of what they can expect to get away with once they sign up to policing?

  • Brian

    Please somebody explain the difference between ‘loyalists’ and ‘unionists’. In my view this is a fellacious dichotomy used by unionists to absolve themselves of the horrendous crimes committed by their fellow brethern. It’s gone on for too long. It’s also the case that RUC/psno are in essence a Unionist/loyalist militia so the term Unionists terrorists of both the legal and illegal varieties is also a fallacy. Just thought it was time to put that out in the open, id est, an RUC Special Branch man is akin to an LVF piece of shit. Both are Unionist sectarian and orange. Both hate Ireland and the Irish nation. Both organizations have a history of murdering innocent Irish people. Both organizastions are immersed in murderous sectarianism, child pornography and drug dealing.

  • slug

    I think that for PIRA, INLA, RIRA the term ‘so called republican paramilitaries’ might be best. To call them republican paramilitaries is unfair to those republicans who deploy only lawful and democratic methods.

    Equally, for UDA, LVF, UVF and so on, the term ‘so-called loyalist paramilitaries’ is best.

    It is important for unionists to recognise and respect the integrity of the intrinsic republican position – the preference for NI to become part of a democratic United Ireland. Equally, it is desirable for republicans to respect the integrity of the basic unionist position – the preference for NI to remain a region of the UK.

    Both are unquestionably legitimate and understandable positions, meriting respect. We should adjust our language to show this respect.

  • bertie

    slug

    Many commentators use republican as shorthand for nationalists with violence and similarly for loyalist and unionist. Personnally I object to the term “paramilitary”. It is euphemistic – like they are a backup to the legitimate army – like paramedic back up to doctors.

  • slug

    Well I think its unfair on more honourable loyalist and republican traditions to consent to the definition that they are violent.

    Fair point on paramilitary, which term do you use in its place?

  • bertie

    Slug

    I know that republicanism in its non Irish meaning does not desrve to be maligned (speaking as a monarchist myself though) and I consider that the true meaning of loyalist is synonomous with unionist and I resent it being hijacked by the UVF etc. At the same time I term myself as unionist to put as much clear blue water between myself and the hijackers as possible. My only protest confined to putting the word “loyalist” in quotes when refering to “loyalist” terrorists.

    As to the term I use instead, well – “loyalist” terrorist, murdering, heartless, mindless, parasitic scum bastards – covers it for me, but “loyalist” terrorist will do for short!