Ed Joyce

Irish Times profile on Irishman starring across water and seeking to play for England

  • smcgiff

    As has been suggested elsewhere, allowing him to play test cricket for the auld enemy, er, I mean our fellow EU citizens may be the answer.

  • maca

    I don’t know why anyone would want to play for a country other than their own, but shur allow him at it.
    Anyway if he had any real sporting talent he’d be out playing a proper sport like hurling.

  • idunnomeself

    Cricket is the only game where any Northern Irish fan will support England. I think it’s the same in Wales, Scotland and down South too. The levels of competition mean it isn’t the same situation as other sports.

    (discounting Billy Hutchinson’s ilk, cause they aren’t real Ulstermen anyway)

  • darthrumsfeld

    “don’t know why anyone would want to play for a country other than their own, but shur allow him at it.”

    A wise blogger once said you should support the international team that you were eligble to be selected for- hence the NI football team, Irish Rugby team, and English cricket team.

    Maca is the mirror image of those Loyalists who don’t support the Irish rugby team because the tricolour is flown at lansdowne and the Terrorist’s Song is the national anthem played.

    And hurling a proper sport? Sure it’s only a pale imititation of shinty :0)

  • Ziznivy

    The England cricket team is de facto a UK side so I have no problem supporting them, particularly when they’re playing the Aussies.

    Cricket is one of the most subtle and rewarding games you can play or watch, which is more than can be said for the ruddy-cheeked farmers’ world of GAA.

  • maca

    darthrumsfeld
    “Maca is the mirror image of those Loyalists who don’t support … “

    As a great English poet asked, “is there a tumour in your humour”? Do you have the ability to recognise a tongue in cheek comment when you see one?

  • maca

    darthrumsfeld
    Actually, I didn’t read which part of my post you quoted … my first point I stand by, my second point was TIC.

  • darthrumsfeld

    “As a great English poet asked, “is there a tumour in your humour”? “

    Robbie Williams a great English poet? shome mishtake shurely

  • cockney

    The England team aren’t a ‘De Facto’ UK team, but are quite simply English. Apart from the absorption of Glamorgan into the county championship in the 1930s, the county championship is solely located in England, where all the test matches are hosted; the team play with the ‘three Lions’ insignia on their caps and kit and they play under the auspices of the English Cricket Board.

    Granted, many of their players throughout history, ranging from Ranjitsinghi, an Indian Prince, to today’s Pietersen (South African) and Jones (Torres Strait) have played for England because their international opportunities were either non-existent or limited in the countries of birth, but that does not necessarily mean that the English cricket team’s identity is porous that it can be called a UK team.

    The English cricket team is what it says on the lid: English.

  • smcgiff

    ‘Cricket is one of the most subtle and rewarding games you can play or watch, which is more than can be said for the ruddy-cheeked farmers’ world of GAA.’

    Depends if a cure to insomnia is your desired result.

    You didn’t see it, but if you could have contrasted the Galway Vs Kilkenny match at Croker yesterday to the borefest that was Chelsea Vs Arsenal yesterday you’d realise how good Hurling can be played. Cork for Liam!

  • The Beach Tree

    cockney

    I think you’ll find its strictly the England and Wales cricket Board (and the team is strictly England and Wales)

    You’re reading the wrong tin.

  • cockney

    Correct.

    I was going to add that in after realising my initial error.

    This change to include Wales in the title of the cricket board has only occured in the last few years. This inclusion is fair enough, since Wales, I think, don’t participate in cricket as an international team, and Glamorgan has been in the county championship for over seventy years.

    It’s still not a ‘UK’ team, though.

  • jocky

    and dont scotland play County Cricket?

  • cockney

    Scotland play in the limited overs competitions, but not in the four-day county championship, since they haven’t been awarded first-class status.

  • maca

    darthrumsfeld
    “Robbie Williams a great English poet?”

    Another TIC comment. You’re not au fait with this concept?

  • The Beach Tree

    cockney

    the change occurred in 1997 . But the England name was only added then too. Rather like the FA, RFU and RFL, the ‘English’ cricket authority saw no need to differnetiate themselves from international boards elsewhere and were called the Test and County Cricket Board.

    Ireland and Scotland are indeed county teams, and play in the C&G cup (Scotland have also appeared in the Totesport league)

    More importantly following the success of these teams in the ICC trophy in Belfast and Dublin, both Ireland and Scotland (and Canada, Holland and Bermuda) have attained FULL one day international status, joining Kenya in that small group who have full status for ODI, but not for Test cricket. this will last until 2008 i believe, when I’m not sure if they have to ‘win’ it again, or are simply reviewed for success so far.

    So no test team yet for Ireland – but trust me, if you had said that Ireland would be a full ODI team ten years ago, the men in white with the butterfly nets would have come calling, so you never know. Especially if a two tear test system emerged; Ireland, Scotland, Holland and Canada etc could certainly hold their own with Bangladesh, and Zimbabwe even now – and with a new 500,000 in funding for each team, there are possibilities.

    And frankly we haven’t even started using the granny rule yet! there’s dozens of decnt ireland qualified players in england to callon if we got proper competition.

    and finally Wales actually do have a rarely used international ODI squad – they play the ECB team once a year in Cardiff I think, but obviously are represented at full international level by ECB

  • CavanMan

    darthrumsfeld

    ”A wise blogger once said you should support the international team that you were eligble to be selected for- hence the NI football team, Irish Rugby team, and English cricket team.”

    If you’re from Northern Ireland ,you’re eligigible to play for the Republic of Ireland team too, il save you a ticket for the France WCQ game at Landsdowne so. 😉

  • stevie ‘wonder’

    I know the subject is mainly cricket …but was just wondering if there was any onre out there who has spare tickets for NORTHERN IRELAND v ENGLAND game at windsor park, or if they want to sell any at more than cost please contact me on 07887764453. (cause i really want them)!

  • slug

    Good luck stevie but I don’t fancy your chances. (Unless you are willing to pay a lot).

  • slug

    Its great to see a bit of a revival goin on in Irish Cricket. Partly down to the wave of migration from GB I guess…

    I was very sad when the North Cricket ground (Ormeau) was sold – to have a cricket field in the heart of the city is something I’d have have wanted to keep. I was there at the last game Ireland v Australia (rain stopped play).

  • darthrumsfeld

    “If you’re from Northern Ireland ,you’re eligigible to play for the Republic of Ireland team too, il save you a ticket for the France WCQ game at Landsdowne so. ;)”

    You might be eligible ( as opposed to eligigible, whatever that is) in the sense that the FAI- that breakaway junior organisation which couldn’t stomach the IFA being based in Belfast- might nominally claim entitlement to do so, but it also has a convention not to select from the North- hence the international wilderness of poor wee Neil (sorry ref) Lennon.

    Of course players could have been slected from NI for RoI and vice versa, until 1950, when the FAI took steps to prevent the continuance of the practise in a sectarian attempt to impose partition on Irish football. Your last attempt at stealing NI born players – Alan Kernoghan- wasn’t a great success.

    Ho hum “isn’t it ironic”, as a great(?) Canadian poet once said about a lot of things that weren’t. Oh, and of course -Allez les Bleus!!!

    (Yes maca I was aware it was TIC, but I wanted to show that I too was a trendy hepcat)

    And the point is not that Ireland doesn’t have an international cricket team- it does, and it’s doing well- but that it doesn’t have an international test team. Thus if you want to play 5 day international cricket ( or 2 day against Bangladesh) you have to play for England, for which the Irish and Scots are eligible- hence Tony Greig captained England by virtue of his dad coming from Edinburgh, and Pieterson’s mum being English. And like rugby , you can acquire nationality by residence- like that great underacheiver Grame Hick of Rumbabwe.

  • smcgiff

    ‘junior organisation’

    See Maca – he does have a sense of humour!

  • SeamusG

    Maca, if people didn’t want to play for any country other than their own, Jack Charlton would never have been able to get a team together.

  • cockney

    Scotland and Ireland aren’t county teams. They don’t play in the county championship because they haven’t been awarded with first-class status, the epithet which deems a team merits the right to play four day competitive cricket.

    Scotland and Ireland regularly play in the limited overs competitions; but then, Holland and Denmark are afforded the same opportunity each year. Like Surrey (ha ha), these teams operate below the level of first-class status. An analogy is that Yeovil regularly play in the English FA cup but are not a league team.

    The point about this spurious UK team is that it devalues the age-old animosity which exists in the cricket world betweem Australia and England. I don’t think it would be unfair to say that for the Aussies it is not the UK that they are desperate to defeat the ‘Pommies’, the English. That is the major cause of frisson for Australia.

    What’s wrong with maintaining these regional (English and Welsh) teams?

  • smcgiff

    ‘desperate to defeat the ‘Pommies’, the English’

    Not sure how desperate someone can be when they’ve achieved it for so long! 😉

  • The Beach Tree

    cockney

    Ireland and Scotland do not operate in the Championship for the simple reason they are not part of “England and Wales”. The merits of the sides are an entirely seperate issue – it’s also a bit odd to say they are not allowed in because “they aren’t up to the standard” of say Hampshire, when the ICC is happy to let them play in full ODI games against Australia!

    New South Wales and Cape Province don’t play in the county championship either; I’m led to believe they both remain quite a decent outfit…

    I fear you mix up merit with jurisdiction.

    The Aussies play Rugby Leagues Ashes tests against Great Britian and Ireland. It doesn’t appear to reduce the passion they have for walloping the Poms. From an Aussie point of view I suggest British and English are equally bashable.

    And for many years beating the Windies was more important to the Australians than results over the mother country.

    I think you’re quite wrong factually on some points ; I suspect, cockney, this is a result of a little too much insular thinking.

    The Cricket team is England and Wales – though it is shortaned to England and no Welsh appear to complain – but I would have a big stick with me the day I tell Simon Jones or Robert Croft that they are English!

    Finally, the recent Welsh One Day International Record

    One-Day Internationals Played by Wales
    2002
    June 24 v England Sophia Gardens, Cardiff : Wales Won by 8 wickets

    2003
    June 14 v England Sophia Gardens, Cardiff : Wales Lost by 8 runs

    2004
    June 19 v England Sophia Gardens, Cardiff : Wales Lost by 6 wickets

  • maca

    S1
    “he does have a sense of humour”

    Bit dry though.

    S2
    “if people didn’t want to play for any country other than their own, Jack Charlton would never have been able to get a team together”

    If people could play for just any country what would be the point of internationals at all???

  • cockney

    I don’t think you understand the difference between the status of limited overs and four-innings county championship cricket. Limited overs cricket, or one day cricket, is not endowed with first-class status unlike four-innings cricket. Only teams who have required a strong standard can qualify to play first-class status.

    Ireland and Scotland, like Holland and Denmark, have not been awarded first-class status. Durham, for instance, qualified for first-class status over a decade ago because of their dominance in minor county cricket.

    Teams without first-class status, such as Scotland, Denmark and the Minor Counties, these teams can play touring teams such as the Aussies in non-first class matches, such as limited overs matches, but not in the longer version of the game because they are simply not good enough. Of course, this position could easily change in the future. Moreover, to say that Ireland or Scotland must be as good as county team as Hampshire because they both play the Aussies is simply ridiculous. Touring teams have long played Ireland and other minor counties teams as part of good-will gestures and a time away from the rigorous demands of the tour against the counties and the test matches.

    You also claimed I was factually incorrect, the result of insular thinking. Would you like to back up this insinuation with recourse to information?

    As far as i’m concerned there’s nothing insular with stating that the English and Welsh cricket team represents those two countries and nobody else. Why devalue the team’s identity with an umbrella representation so porous as to make it a nonsense? If Scotland, God forbid, reached the footie world cup and England didn’t, I wouldn’t dare claim that they had somehow transmogrified into a pan-UK team.

  • cockney

    If you really think that the Aussies value beating the West Indies more than they do England, I think you should spend some time in SCG (unfortunately, the Hill isn’t there anymore) during an Ashes encounter.

    For the Aussies, beating the POMS, specifically the English, at the cricket is their longest-standing sporting rivalry. Beating England, more than Great Britain at Rugby league, is the predominant obsession for OZ.

  • notacockney

    OK ‘Cockney’, explain Mike Denness Scottish captain of Essex and ENGLAND in the 70s. Or even Martin McCague Kent and England fast bowler in the early 90s. he was born in wait for it….Larne.

  • cockney

    I don’t see what your point is? Certainly, mentioning Martin McCague, a useless and obsese fast-bowler, who migrated with his family to Australia when he was a child, does you no favours. McCague played for England because he wasn’t good enough for Australia.

    If you look at the England test team of the last thirty years, many of its players had tenuous connections to England (Mullally, Gallian and Geraint Jones), qualifying only because they weren’t good enough to play for the countries they were brought up in. I rememeber it was only a few years back when Van Troost, a Dutch bowler playing for Somerset, was touted for a place on a touring England A squad. If this had occured would we have had to suddenly expanded the team’s identity to include the EU.

    Is your point that England have employed many cricketing mercaneries to make up its squad?

    Is that it?

    The fact is that nobody’s made a case for why a team that calls itself England, plays with the three lions insignia, and picks its players from the English county championship, should be thought of as a pan-UK team.

    The idea is absurd. Why don’t people just get behind the team of their own country without this ridiculous carpet-bagging which occurs when a team does reasonably well?

    What is your point?

  • The Beach Tree

    The point, cockney, is quite clear.

    1. The team is England AND WALES, not England – it’s shorthand name is simply that; shorthand.

    2. The Three lions motiff is simply a branding exercise. The crown that surmounts those lions appears on no other major crest. It’s no way to decide how a team is chosen, adn in any event, the three lions are French! Angevin, if memory serves.

    3. The England and Wales team represent England and Wales. They alos have, as it happens specific official Tier Two responsibility for Scotland, Ireland (and Europe) – As the only Test team from within that catchment, it is entirely legitimate for cricket followers from those countries to follow the England and Wales Text XI – a team that only even officially got the name in the 1990’s.

    4. On the point of Ireland and Scotlands first-class status, I’m afrid you’re simply incorrect, again. Less beligerence and more scholarship might be beneficial. Ireland Scotland DO have first class status, albeit for limited purposes as they don’t currently play in a county cricket championship. In the UK and Ireland the entire FCS list is as follows-

    • Counties taking part in County Championship matches

      Marylebone Cricket Club versus a first class county

      Oxford University versus Cambridge University

    Cambridge, Durham, Oxford and Loughborough University Centres of Cricketing Excellence matches versus first class counties

      Scotland versus Ireland

      A first class team versus a touring first class team (including Scotland and Ireland
  • Again, you have confused merit with jurisdiction – First class status among the English counties and minor counties may well be decied on ‘merit’ – the same does not apply to the Univeristies, the MCC, the Centres of Excellence, Scotland or Ireland.

    4. To refute an argument no-one made is called rasing a straw man. It’s a basic sin of debate, and you have committed it.

    I never said that Ireland could measure up to Hampshire, or Australia for that matter.

    I said that it was foolish to argue that the reason ‘county status’ had not been granted was because they were not allowed to play ‘such good teams’ when they are allowed to play Australia, an infintely better one.

    How good the opponents would be is nothing to do with why they aren’t in the County Championship. It’s a purely jurisdictional matter, no matter that you wish otherwise. That is the point I made. That is the point you missed. And I repeat, it appears to come from a myopia that has an unfortunate ring of “England for the English” about it. Except the team is not England, and it most certainly is not just for the English! I repeat. Insular thinking.

  • notacockney

    The point is that people from all constituent parts of the United Kingdom have played for and even captained England at cricket.

  • cockney

    To claim that Ireland and Scotland have first-class status on the basis of one match is clearly nonsense. This is merely an appendage to an age-old fixture. For no other matches are Ireland and Scotland deemed to rank up to the criteria of fist-class status. Do you understand that Scotland’s recent match against Australia was not seen worthy of first-class status?

    Your assertion is highly spurious, and for anybody who regularly plays and watches the game, it is laughable. You claimed that Ireland and Scotland are county teams and yet you have failed to show that they are indeed so according to the principle that matches between Ireland and Championship teams are first-class. For all of your bluster about scholarship, you have conspicuously failed to understand what first-class cricket means.

    I will ignore your rather silly comment that the three lions is a fop to the merchandising men. I wonder if you would have the temerity to suggest such a notion to the hundreds of players throughout history proud to wear the insignia on their cap, which, of course, is only used for home matches. I doubt if you know that England use different insignias for home and away tours.

    I find your comment which equates calling the English cricket team ‘England’ a form of racism quite disgusting. I’m an avowed anti-racist, committed to the depoliticisation of sport and the riddance of the spectre of sectarianism and racism which haunts many forms of sport in England.

    I’m just pointing out, quite correctly that the cricket team represents England and Wales, nobody else, certainly not this pan-UK project. I accept the point that the team deserves to be called England and wales, but no more than that. Why devalue a team’s national identity?

    You can’t get away from the fact that the team is called England, it plays with the tree lions, all the home matches are played in English grounds, and the players are picked from the English county championship.

    Please get this pan-UK team idea out of your head.

  • cockney

    I not sure what relevance is to be found in the fact that players from all over the UK have played for England. Apart from McGauge who left Ireland at the age of two, I don’t think Northern Ireland has ever had a player to represent England. Do you this that because Scttish born players have played for the English football team, the English football team is somehow a UK entity as well?

    The point is that they chose to play for England, not some amorphous UK entity. Players from South Africa, Australia, Papua New Guinea, New Zealand, India (who remembers the Nwab of Pataudi?) and Zimbabwe, amongst many others have represented England. Do you also wish to claim that England is in fact a nom de guerre for the Commonwealth?

    Why don’t we agree, as the ECB posits it indentity, that the England cricket team represents England and Wales? You have your national team and we have ours.

  • smcgiff

    Go figure – one can have an argument over cricket!

    Bloody hooligans!

  • Nialler

    Ireland, Scotland and Wales have played First Class Cricket against each other for several years.

    Matches between them – and matches against oertain other opponents were always considered first-class. It is wrong to say that they are not first-class teams. Indeed the designation applies to matches rather than to specific teams.

    They have played considerable less first-class cricket in teh last few years, but this is a strategy which has been imposed on them by the ICC, which wants them to develop their one-day game to the level where they are more competitive against the bigger sides.

    The plan is that as they develop they will begin to play the longer game in parallel to the one-dayers.

    I look forward to a time when teh Ireland side plays more first-class cricket. Maybe then we will have an Irish player topping the *first-class* bowling averages, as JC Boucher did in the 30’s.

    Quite an achievment if we’re not a team that plays first-class cricket.

  • Gundrede

    In fact nine Irishmen have played test cricket — 2 for South Africa, 2 for Australia and 5 for England. Tim O’Brien from Baggot Street even captained them in 1895!

    Although the thread has drifted away from Ed Joyce, its worth noting that he has just been picked on the England ‘academy’ side, which is essentially the ‘A’ team.