Who would live in a town like this?

I dont think anyone else has blogged this, but there has been some discussion today of last night’s Channel 4 programme ‘Best and Worst Places to Live in the UK’.

The programme ranked all of the Local Authorities across the UK looking at things such as educational performance, entertainment venues and employment.

Coming in with the coveted title of third worse place to live in the UK was Strabane. The makers of the programme list Strabane’s infamous unemployment rate as one of the main reasons for its poor showing in the poll but I’m not sure if they measured sheep worrying, as listed in the extended entry in the website, in every area.

  • Fanny

    Strabane’s problem, from an occasionally-passing-through perspective, is that the town centre is depressing. It doesn’t need to be – there are some fine old buildings (as they say). But the traffic layout makes the square ‘feel’ all wrong and the whole place seems awkwardly unwalkable. It’s the sort of thing you could probably fix with more thought than money. It would be good if surveys like this provoked honest soul-searching from councillors and planners etc. but I see it’s just caused the usual defensive denials.

  • the convincer

    how well is lifford doing accross the boarder?
    anybody know?

  • Rob

    Lifford is even more depressing. I don’t think it’s twinned with Strabane but they seem to have have a suicide pact.

  • D’Oracle

    I know its a long shot but is there any chance at all at all that that the existence of the thing cpmmon;y known as “the border” could possibly have any explanatory power with respect to the Strabane or depressing Lifford situations?

  • Fanny

    *sigh* I knew we’d get here eventually.

  • ryan

    whats all this nonsense about!!
    Straban being in the worst ten places in the UK is a remarkable achievmentconsidering its not even in the UK

  • Biddy

    I’m still in shock that Dungiven didn’t even get a mention. The place makes Strabane look like the Norn Iron hub of cultural, economic and social activity.

  • Biddy

    I’m still in shock that Dungiven didn’t even get a mention. The place makes Strabane look like the Norn Iron hub of cultural, economic and social activity!

  • TheTVCritic

    A shocking TV programme. Truly awful and unfunny. Strabane made it in thanks to unemployment and lots of rainfall.

    I imagine the border has got SFA to do with Strabane’s problems- the demise of traditional industries would be more of a factor.

  • bob wilson

    I know Strabane well and it hasn’t got alot going for it. I do find it hard to believe that one of the Frequently Asked Questions on the Strabane DC website is ‘How does the d’hondt system work?’ Frequently asked? Really?

  • bob wilson

    Sorry its actually ‘What is the d’hondt system’ A bit more believable!

  • cladycowboy

    Ah beautiful Strabane! The metropolis on my doorstep. Doesn’t surprise me with this showing. Its always been an economic blackspot, which of course as Fanny has pointed out has had absolutely nothing whatsoever to its proximity to the border, or even that the town itself is predominantly catholic.
    Apart from a few rowdy exceptions, the bulk of Strabane people remain a very friendly and hospitable lot, but its generations away from clawing its way out of this gloom.
    I visited a friend in Ewell, which came top of the best places list recently. He had just moved from his parental home in lovely Woking.
    Ewell resembled a Greater Sutton, so God knows what those nauseating gobshites were judging all this on.

    P.S, i was partially educated in Strabane so this may explain any spelling mistakes, grammatical inconsistencies or degenerative thoughts( just for fanny) contained within.

  • yerman

    “Straban (sic) being in the worst ten places in the UK is a remarkable achievmentconsidering its not even in the UK”

    You might want to check what the UN’s view on that is!

    Strabane is grim – but as usual there are some people who want to think that the people who made this programme set out with some kind of personal vendetta against poor wee Strabane. To make the programme, and maybe its not going to win a BAFTA but it was mildly entertaining, they had to measure some variables and they did this for all of the different areas. Why shouldnt rainfall be taken into account? – I know I’d prefer to live in somewhere with a better climate.

    Strabane does have a nice by-pass though…..

  • Pedantic Scot

    On the Border thing again, if Strabane and the Six Counties aren’t in the UK, there might as well be a name change to GB. Of course, outwith Northern Ireland, most folk call it Britain, including all the politicians. In England, half of them are unable consciously to distinguish between England and Britain, let alone the UK. Either that, or they do it to piss the rest of us off.

    Incidentally, it’s a common failing in Ireland (Republic) to fail to distinguish between England and Britain. Forgiveable in Americans, maybe, but you’d think the Irish would have some idea.

  • GavBelfast

    Pedantic Scot, more than once, I have heard Met Eireann weather forecasters on RTE refer to conditions in “Britain and Scotland”.

    The mind boggles.

  • IJP

    Yerman

    Strabane does have a nice by-pass though…..

    Actually, no it hasn’t!

    Single carriageway with traffic lights on the main Derry-Dublin road? Another genius piece of forward-thinking economic strategy…

    Indeed, the poor place has so little going for it they couldn’t even get the road that takes you around it right…!

  • Joe

    It has a lot to do with the border. Prior to partition, Strabane was a reasonably thriving town. When the border was imposed, it suddenly lost half of its economic hinterland. Immediately went downhill. Didn’t help either when the unionists closed down the railway in the mid sixties.

  • reality check

    mainly because its a catholic town abused by unionist misrule

  • Macswiney

    Now that all the bloggers who have never been to Strabane have had their say, lets try someone who is there every week.(My fiancee lives there). Strabane’s overall facade is a lot better than some of the other towns in The North. The more depressing terrace/victorian facade which cloaks many of our towns is not present in Strabane. The nightlife is always buzzing and on a one to one basis people are very friendly. The town has had historical social problems caused by high unemployment but there is a great spirit and pride within. By the way I’d like to know if the guy Rob (above) who had a pop at Lifford has ever been even clsoe to it. Lifford is a tiny town with incredibly friendly residents and despite its proximity does not resemble the exterior of Strabane in any way. I’d go and check somewhere out before passing comment in future rob…

  • pedant

    Joe, Reality Check- I appreciate that the border might not help, but I think you’ll find that former textile towns like those in Ayrshire and Lancashire have similar problems.

    I noticed there were no Scottish towns in the show. A surprise since we have got some real cesspits and some real nice places, too. Reckon the fact that we don’t do GCSE’s and A-levels meant they left us out- the show was cheap rubbish, after all.

  • slug

    Strabanes web pages are rather nice – made me want to visit.

    Strabane hit the Irish News last month for having a very integrated grammar school – Strabane Grammar is 50%/50%. (It is not part of the formal integrated sector). That is a good thing.

  • cash

    sorry biddy

    dungiven was beaten by much the more deserved winner, strabane is twice the size of dungiven with twice as many people unemployed as well.

    there is bugger all in dungiven fair enough but it is a clean town with good housing and beautiful surroundings that makes it ideal for commuters to derry, limavady, coleraine even belfast. it’s all about location location location and er…employment.

  • Fabulous Diva

    who the hell is David Vance?

  • yerman

    “Strabane Grammar is 50%/50%. (It is not part of the formal integrated sector). That is a good thing.”

    I wonder to those who still regularly attack pupils from Strabane Grammar pick out the prods or do they just attack everyone with that uniform. One of the few places where school buses for controlled schools can come with an army saracen as standard. (and before anyone comments I have a few friends who attended Strabane Grammar and have recounted the tales to me personally).

  • slug

    “I wonder to those who still regularly attack pupils from Strabane Grammar pick out the prods or do they just attack everyone with that uniform. One of the few places where school buses for controlled schools can come with an army saracen as standard.”

    An absolute disgrace.

  • Wee Man

    Its nice to see Strabane up there with the big hitters.

    A well deserved victory.

  • Fanny

    Just nipped over to the David Vance site to see if he’d thrown his toys out of the pram – and guess what? He’s thrown his toys out of the pram.

    For a man so keen to stress that he never visits here because we’re all so nasty, he’s right and quick to pop up here with a nasty remark of his own whenever his name is mentioned.

    I reckon Vance monitors every thread on this board like a hawk.

  • Jo

    Folks:
    In timehonoured tradition, “mightn’t like whats said, but defend the right to say it”!

    There are differences between the hosts of ATW and the language leaves something to be desired on occasion, but in recent times some moderation of the ad hominem line can be appreciated. I’m not a right-wing militarist but have things to say and there are moral lines on issues which arent always covered here on Slugger, so – there aint no compulsion to go where you dont want to on the Net… 🙂

  • Nicholas Blackwood

    David is as lucid as ever…

    “A SLUG OF REALITY
    One of the things about Northern Ireland is that there are not millions of blogs around- and when it comes to political blogs there are only really a handful. Now ATW covers a wide range of topics on a daily basis but it would be strange if I didn’t write about the place in which I live. Sometimes I visit Slugger O’Toole. But not as much as I used to and here’s why.

    Any time I visit that site now and god forbid I should post on it, I get nothing but ad hominem abuse from a gaggle of children who have the cumulative intellectual weight of – well, a slug. They cannot debate – they merely hector and thus I conclude that Slugger is not a welcome site for me. It saddens me but there’s little I can do about. The vitriol certain posters on Slugger exhibit towards ATW is a wonder to behold – check out the thread I have linked to – they really are little keyboard warriors. Andrew stopped posting there a long time ago now – and whilst I still have interest in some of the topics, I increasingly find that debate is impossible and that the tone of too many posters is a huge disincentive to go there. It’s not a problem as there are great sites like the Northern Ireland Magyar as well as Everything Ulster and of course Young Unionists to visit – but Slugger’s been around a long while – as has ATW – and it’s a shame that there is so much animosity towards me on that site. In the final analysis, I have enough to do maintaining your super soaraway ATW and visiting those many friendly blogs that abound – I’m just not sure if Slugger is one of them anymore.”

  • Joe

    I was born and raised in Strabane. Unfortunately i had to leave when i was 17 due to the horrrendous male unemployment rate (19% at the time). this rate was, i am pretty well convinced, was due to Stormont’s total neglect of the area given that the population was 80 % catholic. The 20% protestants owned 90% of the shops and sure knew how to keep their staff fairly docile. Interestingly, althought the catholics could have had 100 % representation on the local council, there was a tacit understanding that they would not stand any candidates in one of the four wards, allowing the protestants to have some say on the town council. It was great place to grow up , nevertheless,
    . due to the awesome community spirit, and although i now live in canada, I go back to visit every two years, It’s a grand town.

  • Nicholas Blackwood

    When bigots start refering to their opponents as “children” you know they have being hanging around one too many septic message boards.

    Dave is it the GBU ?

  • Gerry O’Sullivan

    Strabane was the birthplace of Brian O’Nolan aka Flann O’Brien aka Myles na gCopaleen. So it can’t be all that bad :o)

  • nmc

    Can’t believe that none of Ballymena, Antrim, Portadown or Larne got in. That top ten should have been made entirely of places in NI.

  • La Dolorosa

    Didn’t Bangor (Co.Down) make 5th place????

  • Nicholas Blackwood

    “Didn’t Bangor (Co.Down) make 5th place????”

    are you being facetious ?

    Everyone knows 5th place went to Smog City.

  • Gerry O’Sullivan

    La Dolorosa

    Bangor came 5th in Andrew McCann’s list. There was no Top 10 spot for anywhere in Northern Ireland in the C4 Best Places list. I suspect A McC included Bangor simply because he wanted to have somewhere, anywhere, in NI in his Top 10.

  • Macswiney

    This whole site has become more like an Old Boys club where no matter what the topic, people go off on tangents with their personal (and invariably VERY VERY boring) sparring matches. Those like myself who posted on this thread about the subject manner are actually in the minority . I couldnt give a monkeys about the ego of david Vance or the egos of those who insist on challenging him and ruining every thread on the site. Sort it folks…

  • Jo

    ….Old BOYS Club? Excuse me…? 😉

    For whats it worth I think Kirsty’s judgement was off a bit on Strabane, Larne was a much better contender. Did anyone notice how picturesque was the UTV Live report covering the matter from Strabane on Wed. evening?

  • Printemps

    Spare a moment to think of the unfortunate residents of Hull!

    I didn’t see the show, but knowing a few people who left Strabane, there’s FA to do for a night out. Then again, at least one I knew returned home to live, so it mustn’t be all bad. At least it is a town, unlike say, Craigavon.

  • la Dolorosa

    Gerry – re bangor – id din’t realise it was on a toxic list (ATW) – but then again ballyholme beach is one of the biggest recipients of sewage in N.I….

  • David Vance

    Given that Nicholas Blackwood implies that I am a bigot, and that he also makes allegations regarding Andrew McCann, and that the Slugger Moderator has left his comments intact suggesting tacit approval, may I ask “Nicholas” to provide his full name and postal address, and repeat his allegation? It’s time Slugger either moderated the abuse on this site or accepted the consequences.

  • Nicholas Blackwood

    “but then again ballyholme beach is one of the biggest recipients of sewage in N.I….”

    thats a gross slur, its not as shitty as say Crawfordsburn or Holywood.

  • La Dolorosa

    Nicholas – re ballytholme beach.. it was actually listed in the BBC NI list of dirty beaches and tomatoes have been seend growing in the water (not a good sign)

    I see it’s handbags at dawn with vancey boy!
    ooooooh get her!

  • La Dolorosa

    “It’s time Slugger either moderated the abuse on this site or accepted the consequences.’

    Two words come to mind – pot & kettle- get it??? Vance’s endless energy would be better chanelled in moderating his own toxic weblog……

  • Jo

    Oooh dear, shall I call the Mediation Network?

  • Macswiney

    This site has become essentially an ‘Old Boys’ network where personal disputes are conducted ruining just about every thread. As one of the few who made a post on this thread about the ACTUAL topic , I and others have a right to expect better. I couldnt give a monkey about the egos of David Vance and those who confront him, but I take exception to all of the unnecessary comments. Sort it out folks…

  • Jo

    la D:
    Tomato seeds, I am reliably informed, pass undigested through the alimentary canal and can sometimes be seen in the initial filter systems of our wastewater (poo) treatment works – so their presence as ballyholme is unlikely to mean that they arise from the residue of a tomato n cheese sarnie….

  • Nicholas Blackwood

    yes, actually I can confirm that there are Tomatoes growing on Ballyholme beach. I always took that as a good sign.

    remind me who Mr Vance is again ?

  • Jo

    Nicholas
    After where those seeds have been, you can take it that they are hardy little things! David Vance runs the A Tangled Web site…

  • Denny Boy

    David Vance blogged: “Any time I visit that site [Slugger] now and god forbid I should post on it…”

    God doesn’t seem to have forbidden David to post here. What conclusion can one draw from this?

  • fabulous diva

    Apart from being associated with thie ATW site, who is David Vance? Is he some notorious figure?

  • barnshee

    “Strabane hit the Irish News last month for having a very integrated grammar school – Strabane Grammar is 50%/50%. (It is not part of the formal integrated sector). That is a good thing.”

    Hilarious –the law of unintended consequences -catholic schools amalgamate– shock horror–middle class catholic children have to associate with the lower orders- not f- likely — grammer school suddenly looks a better bet. Going to happen more and more if 11+ disappears.

    Wholesale changes to schools as parents try to avoid the great unwashed. I can think of quite a few convent schools vulnerable to a middle class prod influx on the nearest school rule. Hilarious – another shot in the foot for politicans.

  • Young Fogey

    Who cares – I live in the second best place to live in the UK!

    Though given their criteria for desirable seems to be (with one or two exceptions) boring post-War suburbia with nothing to do, that may not be too comforting.

  • Macswiney

    La Doloroa,

    I’m not new as I’ve actually been posting for quite a while, but it’s frustrating at times to say the least. I think many of the bloggers know each other (or believe they know each other!) perhaps a little too well. I would welcome some new names to shake the site up a little as it is very stagnant. Should Slugger advertise?

  • la Dolorosa

    MacSwiney – maybe it’s just that it’s August (holidays etc)

    I am sorry you feel that way about Slugger – it’s actually well known and highly regarded.

    I do think that the quality of debate is high, mostly civil and well informed (unlike some) . In fact Slugger is an award-winning website (New Statesman 2004)

    maybe you can get some new posters – what about Comandante Marcos

  • kitty

    Strabane has consistently through the years, been named as an (un)employment blackspot in Europe- I believe it tops or nears the top of that list.
    Strabane is a largely Nationalist town- like other nationalist areas in Northern Ireland it has been underdevloped etc.
    Do the sums! And don’t deny it because you don’t like what you find!
    The bypass on Strabane/Sion Mills road is a great job, but if heading toward Ballybofey for example, we would usually take the back road up through Clady- that way you get to miss both Strabane and Lifford.
    David Vance? Ah just one of the remnants that is slowly ebbing away into oblivion, its natural environment.

  • Young Fogey

    Strabane has consistently through the years, been named as an (un)employment blackspot in Europe- I believe it tops or nears the top of that list.

    Absolute total and utter nonsense, Kitty, and a classic piece of NornIron MOPEry (sorry, that’s a bit hard edged, but I do get annoyed at this sort of thing).

    Compare Northern Ireland’s rate of unemployment (6%) with large chunks of Europe close to 20% (think Wallonia, Western Spain, East Germany, the Ruhr, the French Channel Coast, much of Greece etc., etc. That’s before we even think about Eastern Europe. Nowhere in Northern Ireland, sorry nowhere in Ireland, comes close to the top of any European poverty league table these days.

    There’s no reason why Strabane couldn’t be a lot brighter and better – it has decent roads, excellent power/water/telecomms infrastructure, a well educated local workforce, close to Derry which has a rapidly growing economy etc., etc. What’s killing Strabane is the public culture of dependency and passing the begging bowl in Northern Ireland.

  • cmn

    Can’t believe that none of Ballymena, Antrim, Portadown or Larne got in. That top ten should have been made entirely of places in NI.
    Posted by: nmc at August 12, 2005 09:56 AM

    and why is that??? what eldorado do you live in, let me guess- Crossmaglen, Coalisland, Dunloy, Newry, Derry???? or some other bastion of cross community harmony

  • kitty

    Posted in MOPEry by Young Fogey:

    ‘Absolute total and utter nonsense, Kitty, and a classic piece of NornIron MOPEry (sorry, that’s a bit hard edged, but I do get annoyed at this sort of thing).’

    Well, I’ll tell you what Fogey give these links a read, when you are finished, I will send you along the link to Northern Ireland OFFICE report of earlier this year on inequality and economic blackspots in Northern Irelnad. Just because you are in denial does not mean it is not true.
    Then we’ll discuss it.
    Happy reading- there’s plenty more where that comes from.

    http://www.democraticdialogue.org/report2/report2g.htm

    http://www.niec.org.uk/documents/ImpactOfMinWage.pdf

  • kitty

    Here young fogey try this one as well. Plenty more for you to read when you are ready.

    http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/issues/discrimination/whyte.htm#chap1

  • IJP

    It’s not like me to disagree with YF!

    It is fair to say that NI’s culture of dependency (closely allied to its culture of ‘it was themmuns not usuns’ and ‘we have no responsibility for anything that happened in the past’) is what kills its economic prospects generally. And of course he is right to correct you on unemployment levels, which in Strabane are at about the EU average (i.e. lower than Germany’s), certainly no higher.

    However, I would dispute it has good communications – the road to Derry is single carriageway, the road to Omagh is a death trap, and there’s no rail route anywhere near. It is a long way (particularly in terms of time) from any ports, (proper) airports or even motorways or railway stations.

    What I suspect YF is getting at is that the people of Strabane have no right to complain if they keep electing people on the basis of tribal myth rather than a real economic/social plan to move Strabane and the surrounding area forward. There I broadly agree.

  • kitty

    ‘the road to Omagh is a death trap, ‘

    except around that lovely ‘new’ stretch at Newtownstewart. No there’s a town that warranted a by-pass.

  • kitty

    ‘which in Strabane are at about the EU average (i.e. lower than Germany’s), certainly no higher.’

    ARE. The problems in Germany for example are relatively recent. Are you speaking to the current EU average post- enlargement?
    Strabane has been named as an economic/employment blackspot for years, since the formation of the NI state. Like other areas in Northern ireland with large Nationalist majorities this is true, as recently as the NIO report on equality earlier this year.
    It is not MOPEry to state this- it is just a fact.
    As for the TV programme- what a stupid study. Naturally areas of high investment etc etc are better places to live.

  • IJP

    Kitty

    Well, I’d say I can reach consensus with you on those points, yes.

    I’d say off the top of my head that unemployment levels in Strabane have been about even EU-15 average for several years. But to be fair ‘economic activity’ levels are quite low, so it’s not unreasonable to call it an ‘unemployment blackspot’ in the sense that while not that many people are technically unemployed, a comparatively low proportion is actually employed!

    But YF is also broadly right to say that there are far worse unemployment blackspots than Strabane, and indeed these have existed for some time now.

    So the solution is not yet more hand outs (I’m not saying you’re claiming it is, but listen to our politicians…), it is a proper economic package.

    (… which includes rather more than a single-carriageway bypass of Newtownstewart – I mean whose bright idea are single-carriageway bypasses on major intercity routes… aarrrghh!…)

  • Nicholas Blackwood

    I like Newtownstewart…. its like stepping decades into the past.

    I spent a memorable new years eve, with the local banjo boys, a couple of years back.

    & it has a flute band !

    Re : tomatoes atleast it aint too toxic, for them to grow. ND council was recently fined for the dumping of Raw sewage into the sea. NI is the only place in the UK that allows this.

  • irishman

    A top 10 without Ballymena is simply lacking in credibility- surely the considerable efforts as of late by the north Antrim citizenry should see a surge up the polls next year?!?

  • Nicholas Blackwood

    Or Tandragee for that matter.
    the only good thing going for that hole is the smell………….. ahhhhh Tayto.

  • kitty

    ‘A top 10 without Ballymena is simply lacking in credibility- surely the considerable efforts as of late by the north Antrim citizenry should see a surge up the polls next year’

    Well imagine naming Paisley’s constituency one of the worst places in the UK. Perish the thought people.
    However, from what I have read, unemployment figures in Strabane has sat at around 18%, increasing to nearly 30% in the height of the troubles and during the bad old 80’s. Unemployment in Ballymena has averaged out at abut 8% over the same period.
    And that is not MOPEry, just facts.

  • slug

    Thats true – Ballymena has always had amongst the lowest unemployment in NI. It has a strong private sector economy and a proeperous place by EU standards. Quite different from Strabane.

  • wes3

    I suppose they have more money to buy paint

  • Dandyman

    Excuse my ignorance, but what exactly does MOPE stand for?

  • Gerry O’Sullivan

    MOPE = Most Oppressed People Ever

  • BogExile

    I’m concerned Fermanagh hasn’t got a look in. What about Kinawley, the famous village inside an army sanger with its warm friendly welcome of a mortar or two.

    But really, who IS David Vance. I’m a persuadable Unionist and rather alarmed at his stress levels. Are the two conditions related?

  • Freeview45

    I saw Vance on Hearts and Minds once and was shocked to see a rather cuddly-looking elderly gentleman. In my imagination he actually looked like his bete noir- David Trimble!

  • Fermanagh Young Unionist

    Actually IMO ATW is a first-rate website. Between DV and A McC I think they cover a large sphere of contentious topics which many other sites would be afraid to such as the issue of over immigration on the UK mainland. Although I do not comment that often I regularly visit the site. It is no surprise that ATW readership and number of comments are increasing all the time: I am afraid DaithiO, la Dolorosa etc. you are in the minority.

    To me it just looks like nationalists ganging up against a Unionist website: pretty immature if you ask me.

  • Bill

    Having visited ATW several times I have to agree with La Dolorosa above. I actually gave up visiting the site altogether as I’d feel depressed after reading the stuff posted there most of the time. The Junior host seems to be completely eaten away with hatred, not at Irish nationalism in particular, but in general at the non Anglo-Saxon world.

  • Jo

    FYU:
    Im not a Nationalist and I have had my criticisms of ATW, particularly Andrews comments. I think David tries to be more sensible and even handed, but he has firmly Unionist views, although not siding with either DUP or UUP.

    Neither I nor Nationalist/Republican posters here have any problem with strngly held Unionist viewsand I believe the presence of more rational heads such as my own can have a tempering effect. As for nastiness? Some of the thoughts expressed here on Slugger about a dying Mo Mowlam leave some of the ATW sentiments standing!

  • Jo

    Daithi:

    Re: Your BBC comments above, perhaps you can drop me an email?

  • Valenciano

    Must admit I’m at a loss to understand the vitriol being poured out towards DV here. There are far worse sites out there to get all hot and bothered about and some of the authoritarian shite posted on Slugger is as equally distasteful as anything seen on ATW.

    I don’t agree with much of what he and A McC write either but no one ever compels me to read it and unlike some , I don’t subscribe to the patronising view that people are so dumb that they’ll start pushing shit through ethnic minorities letter boxes after reading one of the articles on there! There are far worse sites out there to get all hot and bothered about and some of the authoritarian shite posted on Slugger is as equally distasteful as anything seen on ATW.

    You don’t like ATW? Simple solution : don’t read it! Never understood why people moan about a site but then religiously read it, like Moths flying into a fire!

  • Moderator

    This thread is now closed to further postings pending a likely purge of ALL extraneous comment.

    Keep to the topic in future.

    Mod.