Brighton Bomb documentaries

The BBC are screening what the Observer newspaper describes as two of the year’s finest documentaries over on BBC 1 tonight. The first at 9pm, The Brighton Bomb, is a detailed account of the IRA’s attempt to blow up Margaret Thatcher and her cabinet. The second (10.35pm) focuses on Patrick Magee, the man convicted of the bombing, and the investigation that tracked him down.

  • willowfield

    The legally-held weapons thing is clearly an irrelevant nonsense.

    ShayPaul: if people think NI is illegitimate, they are wrong. Even if they are right, it still doesn’t give them the right to murder people. Sorry.

  • ShayPaul

    WF

    The legally-held weapons thing is clearly an irrelevant nonsense.

    ShayPaul: if people think NI is illegitimate, they are wrong. Even if they are right, it still doesn’t give them the right to murder people. Sorry.

    Posted by: willowfield at September 19, 2004 08:49 PM

    Legitimacy is at the heart of the debate :

    My point WF is that the legitimacy of the state is an essential basic condition for a society to function. Like it or not the NI state went through a phase wherein “many” inside and outside the state brought into question its’ legitimacy.

    I wanted to point out that “all” democrats should be ” very” strict with the state about its’ legitimacy and “very” tough on state murder.

    As many will point out, state murder remains to be proved. All true democrats should be calling for open enquiries into such allegations in order to a) clear the name of the state and thereby underline its’ legitimacy b) identify non complying elements of the state system and bring them under control thereby also underlining the legitimacy of the state.

    It is not acceptable to simply trade atrocities on slugger, that’s easy and we go nowhere.

    Murder is of course wrong.

    State murder is indeed more so.

  • willowfield

    I’m not sure that any one murder is worse than another or, indeed, the logical converse that some murders are better than others.

  • Davros

    Activities by minor functionaries does not equate to
    “State murder”. There is no evidence that the State sanctioned the actions of any members of the security forces. This is very different from the Brighton Bomb – as Magee himself has said that he sought and received permission from the IRA for his crime.

  • Jeremy 1

    Davros,

    If it is as you say then the British government would have no difficulty in dispatching the clamor for an enquiry.

    It is because there is compelling evidence for collusion in extra-judicial killing at a high level of the state that an independent enquiry is necessary. That is what Judge Corey found at any rate.

    The refusal of many people who support the Six County state to recognize the right of nationalists to live without fear of state repression, and the failure to give practical effect to that recognition, is one of the reasons why that state has problems with legitimacy.

    This is something an

  • willowfield

    Maybe the state is learning lessons from Provisional SF by holding back on delivering a basic moral obligation (in this case an inquiry into Finucane) in order to use it as a bargaining chip in negotiations, just as PSF has been doing with PIRA decommissioning/disbandment?

  • Davros

    “It is because there is compelling evidence for collusion in extra-judicial killing at a high level of the state that an independent enquiry is necessary.”

    That’s malicious twaddle Jeremy.

    There is NO evidence that there was involvement at a “high Level “.

    “The refusal of many people who support the Six County state to recognize the right of nationalists to live without fear of state repression,”

    Equally malevolent twaddle that ranks with the claims by nutters like the late George Seawright that there is a Vatican plot.

    Where do you get this nonsense ?
    An fleabite ? The Irish Vice ? The Irish Pimple ?

  • Jeremy 1

    Davros,

    I received information on this “malevolent twaddle” as you put it from such sources as the Barron Enquiry (into British involvement into the Dublin Monaghan bombings), the Cory Collusion Inquiry Report (into British involvement in the killing of Pat Finnucane and others) and the Stevens Enquiry

    A collection of this material can be found at

    http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/issues/collusion/source.htm

    This is a very useful repository of material, much of which is “internal” to Northern Ireland, so you should have little difficulties in opening your eyes to read it.

    Of particular interest on that page is a transcript of the two-part BBC Panorama report on collusion in which British police officers and RUC officers accuse members of state forces of involvement in crimes resulting in murder, or in perverting the course of justice in relation to investigations of those murders. Of particular interest you will find is the suggestion that RUC or British Army forces (or a combination of both) successfully burned down the offices of the Stevens enquiry team in RUC headquarters. For some reason, the members of the enquiry team thought there might be just such an attempt, so they placed copies of the evidence safely in Britain

  • Davros

    LOL Jeremy … That’s funny 🙂

    “members of state forces “…
    Squaddies and junior officers ?

    “many of them “… Outsiders like Noraid and FoSF ?

    And you haven’t addressed your disgraceful claim
    “The refusal of many people who support the Six County state to recognize the right of nationalists to live without fear of state repression” … would these be the 100,000+ armed to the teeth unionists your like go on about who are just waiting to launch a genocidal campaign ?

    Many “Outsiders” are convinced that Gerry Adams was a high ranking IRA man responsible for many deaths. How do you feel about that one ?

  • ShayPaul

    Davros

    Why permanently resort to hyperbole and LOL gimmicks.

    Debate the issues :

    Do you agree that in the present context the state has to make the effort to be above suspicion in order to maintain its’ legitimacy, thus engendering the support of the “vast” majority ?

    Is this not conducive to a stable, free, democratic society wherein normal political procedures suffice for expressing disaccord ?

    Is it not the duty of the state to go the extra mile by holding judicial enquiries into alleged breaches of the law by its’ security forces?

    Are these not the simple pre-requisites that enable all to have faith in the state and move on to other more pressing issues ?

  • Davros

    Shay, I communicate with people at a level I think they will understand.

    I have already said that I think that anybody involved in plotting the murder of Finucane should be sent to Prison.

    I’m addressing the attack on the state by use of malicious innuendo. I would argue that many of these complaints about the state are made NOT to establish faith in the state but to cause trouble, alienate the minority and destabilise the state.
    To be blunt … if Pat Finucane had been found to have been an informer his execution would possibly have been ordered by one of the people weeping crocodile tears for the man today.

    Let me turn things round a little and see if as a nationalist you can see my point of view.

    SF want to become part of the state. Some of them have demonstrably done things as bad as anything alleged to have been done by the state. If you argue for trust within the state , shouldn’t we also have inquiries into the alleged role of senior SF officers in killings like La Mon, Claudy, the murder of Joanne Mathers and Frank Hegarty?

  • willowfield

    ShayPaul

    The state has already conceded an inquiry.

  • ShayPaul

    “Let me turn things round a little and see if as a nationalist you can see my point of view.

    SF want to become part of the state. Some of them have demonstrably done things as bad as anything alleged to have been done by the state. If you argue for trust within the state , shouldn’t we also have inquiries into the alleged role of senior SF officers in killings like La Mon, Claudy, the murder of Joanne Mathers and Frank Hegarty?

    Posted by: Davros at September 20, 2004 10:43 PM”

    There you go again Davros – sectarian tickets.

    I don’t know how many times I need to explain to you that I am not a nationalist. I am a Republican remember. I believe in a Republic of the people for the people.

    Your example does not impress me – the exchanging of atrocities is a dead end.

    The question is the legitimacy of the state and its accountability and transparency.

    The existence of control mechanisms which will allow no-one to abuse the system. These are responsibilities of the state, and we as citizens should work to ensure that these mechanisms exist. It is not a question of individuals but of power and the control of its’ use/misuse.

    “ShayPaul

    The state has already conceded an inquiry.

    Posted by: willowfield at September 20, 2004 10:43 PM”

    I will assume the use of “an” was not a trap WF.

    I notice you use the term “the state has already conceded”. Do you consider that “your state” has made this “concession” or has our state made the right decision for all of us ?

    The state should not concede, “we all” should demand. That would be proof that “we are moving forward”.

  • Davros

    Shay… what was sectarian about my post ? was that a kneejerk response ?

    Please try to address the points I made…
    Confidence in the state is important for the minority community… why isn’t it equally important for the majority community?

    It’s all one-way traffic.

  • joe

    Most states in the world have done or are doing things that the general public would dissaprove of.Shay this perfect republic does not exist anywhere.

  • willowfield

    ShayPaul

    I don’t know how many times I need to explain to you that I am not a nationalist. I am a Republican remember. I believe in a Republic of the people for the people.

    So you if the UK became the United Republic of GB & NI, you’d support NI’s membership of it and your support for a united Ireland would become redundant.

  • ShayPaul

    WF

    What is important is that the people of NI live and work together in peace.

    I believe that this is best served by a Republic.

    That this Republic be united with the ROI is less important.

    That this Republic be united with your “fictive” Republic of GB is an interesting idea – I have no sectarian objection to such an idea.

    Begs the question of course of a “fictive” Republic of Great Britain and Ireland – I have no sectarian objection to such an idea.

    Begs the question of a “fictive” European Republic – I have no sectarian objection to such an idea.

    Each scenario begs the question of representation and accountability in the best interests of the people of said Republic. That is a serious question worthy of a good debate.

    What worries me in your question is the notion that you value the association with an outside entity more than the peace and well being of the people of NI.

    That is surely a very peculiar attitude that underpins the “Unionist” cause and leads to a lack of coherence and consequent “division” within NI.

  • ShayPaul

    Most states in the world have done or are doing things that the general public would dissaprove of.Shay this perfect republic does not exist anywhere.

    Posted by: joe at September 21, 2004 04:07 AM

    Granted Joe, but that shouldn’t stop good men from working for such a state.

    Or we just through in the towel and let the whole place go down the tubes.

  • ShayPaul

    Shay… what was sectarian about my post ? was that a kneejerk response ?

    Please try to address the points I made…
    Confidence in the state is important for the minority community… why isn’t it equally important for the majority community?

    It’s all one-way traffic.

    Posted by: Davros at September 21, 2004 12:24 AM

    First of all you categorised me as a Nationalist – that was the sectarian ticket.

    Secondly you threw up the usually sideshow which goes something like : “I can find a worse atrocity that yous uns did to us ons”.

    Sorry Davros but that sort of crap just gets in the way.

    The legitimacy of the state is a paramount pre-occupation of all democrats.

    Don’t trade it so cheaply.

    State murder is wrong.

    An enquiry which establishes the truth is good for the legitimacy of the state.
    a) It might prove the state innocent of said charges.
    b) It might find the state guilty of said charges. In which case the transparency and consequent corrective actions lead to greater legitimacy and confidence.

    This of course presumes that the state is mature and capable of real non-sectarian accountability.

    I would suggest that the problem is that you believe that it is “your” state and your knee jerks at the idea of it being “attacked by use of malicious innuendo” by them uns.

    N’est ce pas ?

  • willowfield

    What worries me in your question is the notion that you value the association with an outside entity more than the peace and well being of the people of NI.

    Great Britain is not an outside entity.

  • Davros

    But you are a nationalist Shay.

    and your retreat into accusing me of “throwing up a worse atrocity” is amusing considering THAT is the reason people say that The Murder of Mr Finucane is
    more worthy of an Inquiry than the many, many other murders here….

    one way traffic and because your mind is closed you cannot see it.