UPDATE- Jamie Bryson-A rebel without a hope?

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You might think I don’t have better things to do with my time but alas this evening I ventured out to conduct my second interview with Jamie Bryson. I was surprised when he contacted me saying he wanted to talk to me again, as our first encounter led him to be generally criticised but I thought with his attempts to fundraise and Billy Hutchinson’s recent comments about him it was worth another go.

I began the interview by asking him directly were his attempts to fundraise not a bit farcical at this stage, since a mock character called KoKo the Flegger had already gained more cash? Yet, Jamie seemed to brush off these claims telling me that he was 90% sure that he could raise the £5,000 needed to get his name on the ballot claiming that the online fundraising was only one part of his machine, but that he has held fundraisers and auctions plus he has more events planned in places like Scotland to raise other funds.

I did put to him LAD’s offer for a fundraiser but he seemed unhappy;

I have no interest in irrelevant faceless bullies and I’ll not be engaging in any farcical nonsense with them. What LAD do is up to LAD. They’re people hiding behind a mask essentially.

But, would he accept a donation?

Well, if they want to make a donation I will accept donations from anybody but I’m not going to get into talking about LAD.

I still remained unconvinced about his bid, so I put it to him that was this not simply the most expensive suicide mission in history?

It’s certainly going to be difficult to get a seat in Europe…I will stand on the basis of what I believe, I have always been open about what I believe…In that sense I don’t expect to get elected. I don’t think things are bad enough for someone like me to get elected.

Bryson did however say that he would tell his supporters to give their second preferences to the UKIP candidate, Henry Reilly but will not give any support to Diane Dodds as he believes that a vote for the DUP, is a vote for Sinn Fein.

So, that’s Europe, but what about the Local elections? Bryson confirmed that he will likely run in Bangor East and made the commitment that if he is elected he would only take the old Councillor salary of £9k per year and donate the remainder to charity.

We pressed on to his response to the recent comments Billy Hutchinson made about him in the Newsletter but he simply dismissed it and said that he ‘no response to make.’

I moved on, interested to know what he made of the recent debacle surrounding the Sinn Fein Councillor, Catherine Seeley’s treatment at the hands of the Protestant Coalition. Bryson mentioned that he believed that if somebody was doing their job properly they shouldn’t be attacked but when I pressed him on condemning what the Protestant Coalition did; he refused to do so as he said ‘he did not know the ins and outs of that situation.’

I asked him about the attacks on Anna Lo recently due to her comments on the issue of a United Ireland but that he believed that while she was entitled to express a view that she was not best placed to give an opinion on the constitutional future of Northern Ireland. This again is an interesting twist in Bryson’s logic as he again repeated his view that he has more respect for Sinn Fein than the Alliance party and had little sympathy for the treatment that Naomi Long had received over the past 18 months.

This view of Naomi led me to ask the question had his own campaign to restore the flag not been a failure when you consider the declining numbers at protests? But, without a pause he said that there had been no decline at all and cited how long Twaddell had gone on for as measure of its success. I did follow up with a question on the cost, but Bryson simply said ‘you cannot put a price on culture.’

Everything Jamie seemed to say to me harked back to the old Unionist days (1921-72), so after everything he said I asked him what his own view of that period and the discrimination that took place?

I think that nobody should be discriminated against on the basis of their religion or their political beliefs. However, I do believe the government has a right to take certain steps to protect the state from those who are seeking to overthrow it.

Frustrated at the answer I gave him the specific of the Gerrymandering on Derry City Council as an example and asked if he felt that was ok?

I can understand it. I would not condone discrimination against anybody but I could understand it. I genuinely could understand it to protect the state from those who were trying to subvert it.

At this point, we ended the interview.

My final thoughts-Jamie is in person very polite and friendly but when it comes to politics I cannot help but think that his statements like the one above and those comments about Anna Lo are the result of a massive disconnect from the reality of modern politics. Jamie is content to be the voice in the wilderness howling at the moon but like most people who do this very little progress ends up coming with them. If Jamie wants to mobilise a base, he needs to stop alienating others and thinking about ways to broaden his appeal and I am not holding my breath on either happening soon. All of his begs the question is he simply a rebel without a hope?

 UPDATE-Bryson has confirmed he will now not run in the European elections-A week is is truly a long time in politics

Speaking to Slugger-Jamie has said that it was the ‘adverse media’ reaction to his European bid that played a factor in his pull out of the election.

 

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  • Comrade Stalin

    Not much hope for someone who overtly avoids answering questions.

    Jamie doesn’t like it when the state acts to block his attempts to overthrow it, but it’s more than clear by now that he does not do irony.

    The tweeps are saying that Bryson cannot stand for Europe due to his criminal conviction.

  • Pete Baker

    “I was surprised when he contacted me saying he wanted to talk to me again…”

    Why were you surprised David?

    You seem to be one of the few people who haven’t identified him as a self-promoting bullshit artist…

  • David McCann

    Pete,

    I always have the view that ignoring people doesn’t make them go away-I think by challenging arguments and exposing contradictions where they exist is the best way.

  • Charles_Gould

    His 15 minutes of fame are up.

  • Pete Baker

    “I always have the view that ignoring people doesn’t make them go away…”

    Not if you keep agreeing to interview them, and provide them with some publicity, they don’t…

  • David McCann

    Two Peter and neither of them slavish to him.

  • Pete Baker

    “neither of them slavish to him”

    He doesn’t care, David.

    Just as long as you’re talking about him.

    “self-promoting bullshit artist…”

  • ayeYerMa

    If Bryson has one thing going for him, it’s that he is not afraid to say what he thinks and get stuck into people like McCann and ignore his attempts to use political correctness in his position as an interviewer to promote and not allow his own blinkered views to be challenged. Many people are sick and tired of politicians who can’t say what everyone is thinking through being afraid of the pathetic hounding by the media if they say something which is true but otherwise censored.

    McCann, how can you be “reminded of the old Unionist days” when you likely weren’t even born (nor was I or Bryson for that matter)? The whole “discrimination” nonsense is getting really boring. There is evidence of discrimination against Protestants in places like Newry yet it never gets a mention by any of these nonsense narratives. Nor does the legitimate context on cracking down on nat/reps given their, and our southern neighbours’, attempts to politically and militarily subvert the state since its inception. Most of the wider statistics have also been thoroughly debunked (housing being the most notable, with employment not far behind)

    Then I think there is a factor here that many Leftists brains simply cannot understand after being brainwashed by anti-meritocratic fantasy egalitarian dogma since birth. Being discriminant is a positive quality indicating high standards — all countries in the world are discriminant in favour of those loyal to it. That is just common sense for protecting the liberty of citizens, yet these people have been so brainwashed by Cultural Marxism that they live in a pretend world where it is not.

    While the most objective evil is undoubtedly at the feet of those responsible for murdering innocents, I also agree that parties like Alliance or people like Tony Bliar deserve the most flak for letting terrorists take the piss. The most evil people just don’t not listen, therefore the appeasers are those who deserve the concentration of your attack.

  • http://fitzjameshorselooksattheworld.wordpress.com/ fitzjameshorse1745

    I really do think that Bryson can be ignored.
    He craves the oxygen of publicity.
    I was at a function in December. Jamie Bryson was there.
    I dont wish to give a misleading impression….maybe Alan in Belfast cancorrect me if Im wrong.
    At the coffee break,it was obvious that bloggers and others paid court to Jamie.
    Many of those are people I admire so I was a bit shocked.
    I am 40 years older than Jamie Bryson but I feel I have known him all my life.
    Trust me on this David….there is absolutely nothing special about him.

  • Politico68

    I think its easy to criticize Bryson and laugh at him, it makes us far more comfortable to look Down on him and giggle at his ways, but it also makes us pretty nasty creatures. Far worse are the people close to him who get a thrill everytime they feel included in the ludicrousy when what they really should be doing is looking after him and getting him some help.

  • keano10

    When exactly was this interview conducted? Bryson had already posted on Facebook last week that he would not be allowed to stand for election because of his criminal conviction? Was this interview conducted after that? If so, why?

  • boondock

    Regarding the fundraiser most of the donations came from LAD and other jokers claiming to be Martin McGuiness etc etc and their comments have been deleted and become anonymous lol

    http://www.gofundme.com/Brysonelection

  • http://backonthecorneragain.wordpress.com chrisbrowne28

    Rebel without a clue.

    Nothing new, nothing interesting. He’s an afterthought and not significant enough for this interview to be published.

  • Comrade Stalin

    A part of me is annoyed that this political nobody gets attention. But I think it’s right to interview Bryson, perhaps for different reasons. He’s a character closely associated with the erstwhile flag protests and his contribution to things is relevant.

    But the part I’m looking forward to savouring is his electoral defeat. It is possible by some weird turn of events that he could win a council seat; but he’ll lose it again just as quickly when people realize that voting for an idiot who talks unmitigated bollocks doesn’t get them anywhere and it certainly doesn’t get their bins emptied. Set against that, his self important, self-obsessed rantings about everything and anything will simply be one long non-stop gag reel.

    Already we have “koko the flegger”, supposedly a talking gorilla engaged in a perpetual conflict with the “chimpanzee scum” at Belfast Zoo managing to raise over a couple of days double the amount of money Bryson managed to raise in a period of weeks. This before, hilariously, it turned out that Bryson isn’t even eligible to run for election due to his criminal conviction for possession of an offensive weapon. He claims, in his usual exaggerated style that a “three man independent committee” (unnamed, of course) is administering the funds – but it is unclear whether those who donated will be refunded.

    This house of cards is about to fall apart and when it does Jamie will be unelectable, unemployable and probably feeling very sorry for himself.

  • http://gmulvenna.wordpress.com Helicopter of the Holy Ghost

    “You might think I don’t have better things to do with my time but alas this evening I ventured out to conduct my second interview with Jamie Bryson”

    And immediately David exposes his own limitations as a supposedly ‘neutral’ interviewer.

  • David McCann

    Got the same opportunity to answer questions like everybody else I have interviewed and there is not a single misquote or mis-representation of anything he said in that piece.

  • iluvni

    ‘Voting for an idiot who talks unmitigated bollocks…’…

    …….sounds a bit like Lo as well to be perfectly honest.

  • between the bridges

    In the past Jamie would have been a non entity, in the modern social media and reality news era he is a well known non entity. Unfortunately we will be denied the opportunity of seeing what his talents could bring to the European stage. Perhaps we could harness his promotion skills ala ‘discover ulster’ campaign or as a ambassador to N.Korea…

  • runepig

    “…he has more events planned in places like Scotland to raise other funds.”

    I suspect that will go about as well as his gofundme campaign. While it’s true the referendum is still all to play for, when you have the likes if Ally McCoist coming out for a Yes vote and sites like Wings over Scotland crowdfunding over 10 times Jamie’s target in less than 12 hours, I don’t think he’ll be best pleased by the response to his campaign across the water.

  • http://alaninbelfast.blogspot.com Alan in Belfast

    As a blog that looks at politics, I don’t see why small players should be exempt or ignored from focus.

    While Pete Baker has a history of jumping in with his “self-promoting, and self-publishing, bullshit artist” comment, his low opinion of Jamie isn’t an excuse to avoid being curious.

    How a quietly spoken young man, who doesn’t dominate a room when he enters but continues to cast a strong influence on many loyalist supporters is of note. That such a vacuum of leadership in loyalism existed that allowed Jamie to rise to become a leader is amazing.

    A lack of curiosity is a terrible thing .. even it’s asking questions about people or topics you don’t agree with.

  • http://gmulvenna.wordpress.com Helicopter of the Holy Ghost

    RE: KoKo the Flegger, the phrase ‘a fool and his money’, springs to mind.

  • Sp12

    “RE: KoKo the Flegger, the phrase ‘a fool and his money’, springs to mind.”

    JFC, it’s for charity. Probably best not to mention which one, wouldn’t want the usual suspects threatening charity workers again.

  • zep

    “I think its easy to criticize Bryson and laugh at him, it makes us far more comfortable to look Down on him and giggle at his ways, but it also makes us pretty nasty creatures. Far worse are the people close to him who get a thrill everytime they feel included in the ludicrousy when what they really should be doing is looking after him and getting him some help.”

    Totally agree Politico; I don’t know why this guy is on people’s radars at all, apart from the fact that he has put himself forward as a spokesperson without any actual mandate from anyone. Is it easier for us to laugh at the silly little boy who doesn’t know what he’s talking about, rather than think critically about identity issues?

    I often wonder at the treatment of Willie Frazer too – surely a man who has suffered the loss and ongoing intimidation that he has is to be pitied, rather than his every word hung on and derided. I daresay my own perspective would be heavily warped if I had grown up as he has – not to excuse him, but certainly a reason to bear his opinions with a large pinch of salt, rather than take them to pieces.

    LAD have done more for Jamie Bryson than Jamie Bryson has.

  • Turgon

    I hold no brief for Jamie Bryson and loathe many of his comments and views. However, one fact which has been reproduced here should make people stop and think. That is the fact that Bryson cannot stand for Europe due to his criminal conviction for possession of an offensive weapon. It has been celebrated here by keano10 and Comrade Stalin.

    In our society we have murderers, bombers, bank robbers and assorted other terrorists in political positions. One convicted double murderer recently justified his foul conduct (whilst incidentally attacking Bryson) and he has managed to become a councillor without even being elected. In such a society laughing at Bryson over this particular aspect seems a little hollow.

  • Morpheus

    There’s you answer Turgon – he shouldn’t run in a race when a criminal conviction prohibits it, he should run in a local election. Problem solved.

    I can’t believe we are still talking about a nobody when there are other gems like this out there:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-26728156

    The UUP have lost the plot completely

  • Master McGrath

    Very much agree with AiB – just how big is the vacuum among Unionist politicians that this person can come forward and command attention for views that are not too tightly wrapped in the parcel of coherent thought.

  • zep

    Is it not a two-way street, Master McGrath? I wouldn’t have a clue what Bryson thinks about anything were it not for media coverage of, and LAD’s constant commentary on, his outlandish behaviour and remarks. Ignore it and he will go away… unless of course somebody votes for him, at which point he can join the rest of the loonies in local government :-)

  • http://fitzjameshorselooksattheworld.wordpress.com/ fitzjameshorse1745

    I dont have any great problem with Jamie Bryson being interviewed twice….but its a bit annoying that he can actually ask to be interviewed.
    He will never be part of the History of Norn Iron but he will be an interesting footnote and a gopd subject for a dissertation at QUB in about thirty or forty years time.
    They already do a module that mentions Buck Alec, Silver McKee and Stormy Weatherall. Seriously..

  • Son of Strongbow

    Down Council spent £30k on unnecessary signage? That would indeed buy a few “gems”. Did the council really vote the Irish language as the first language for the council? Are council meetings now conducted in Irish with simultaneous English translation? Are LAD running the story?

    The council has really lost the plot. It could have gone for the much more financially sound ‘unionist’ option. I’d say you could pick up a Union Flag and pole for a couple of hundred.

    Of course public dosh is often too easily cast about. I’m tempted to hold out my own hand. I can’t speak Chinese beyond wishing someone a Happy New Year but would happily take an appointment as a Chinese Language Development Officer – if the money’s right.

  • mac tire

    “I can’t believe we are still talking about a nobody when there are other gems like this out there:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-26728156

    Absolutely Morpheus. Though, when we think about it, both are cheeks of the same arse.

    Dearg le fearg!

  • iluvni

    Never mind DOwn, how much public money is the ‘Culture’ Minister wasting in her desperate attempts to drum up interest in Irish with tv and billboard ads?

  • keano10

    Turgon,

    You perhaps owe me an apology. At no stage in my post did I celebrate the fact that Jamie Bryson could not stand in the election. I simply pointed out that he, himself, had openly declared on Facebook last week that he would not be able to stand.

    For what it’s worth, I would be more than happy to see this buffoon put himself forward in any of the upcoming elections…

  • foyle observer

    ”In our society we have murderers, bombers, bank robbers and assorted other terrorists in political positions. One convicted double murderer recently justified his foul conduct (whilst incidentally attacking Bryson) and he has managed to become a councillor without even being elected”

    Who you referring to, your leader, Jim Allister’s mate, Billy Hutchinson? He’s all over him at Twaddel…? Do you ever criticise Jim for standing in solidarity with this convicted double murderer?

  • Comrade Stalin

    Turgon,

    In such a society laughing at Bryson over this particular aspect seems a little hollow.

    Actually Turgon I wasn’t (although the fact that he stood up in court and claimed himself to be innocent under “God’s law”).

    The point is that he doesn’t have the basic competency to run an election campaign. If he did, he would have known that he could avoid himself the embarrassment of putting his name down for an election he is disqualified for.

    I am not actually a fan of such disqualifications. Bryson’s conviction is relatively minor compared to other things around here and it should be up to the electorate to exclude him if that is their wish.

  • http://WindowsIDHotmail danielsmoran

    Comrade Stalin[11.28] Jamie’s priceless entertainment value along his other laurel, wee wullie. A rebel without applause ndeed, but it’s Robinson who’s been led a merry dance by Cameron over this ‘full inquiry’ that ‘saved his job’
    He just HAD to go on TV to clarify after it’s revealed on the news that only some cases ogf OTRs will be investigated. He explained that away by saying the PSNI would do the rest, but they’re being in vestigated by this ‘judge. What a whitehall farce.

  • Neil

    I think Robbo got exactly what he wanted: plausible deniability, and the chance to row back from his perennial resignation ‘threat’.

  • aquifer

    “he believes that a vote for the DUP, is a vote for Sinn Fein”

    And he is right, but not in the way he imagines.

    This 5k deposit stuff is nonsense, and we have had ex-offenders as first ministers.

    Let the voters decide who is fit for office.

    Does he not even have one mate who will stand up for him?

    There were at least ten at the last flag protest.

  • Reader

    Master McGrath: Very much agree with AiB – just how big is the vacuum among Unionist politicians that this person can come forward and command attention for views that are not too tightly wrapped in the parcel of coherent thought.
    But he’s not actually getting much attention from unionists, is he?
    If he was, his electoral fund would be comparable with the publicity he is getting. His actual supporters are few and penniless. All this coverage reminds me of nothing so much as the Freak Pointing stall when Funland came to Craggy Island.

  • http://backonthecorneragain.wordpress.com chrisbrowne28

    Good point. It is only extreme loyalists and nationalists on their high horse who have lost focus of the real issues who actually pay him any attention.

  • Disaffected Citizen

    Could AyeYerMa provide some statistical evidence to the following tripe that he made:

    “Most of the wider statistics have also been thoroughly debunked (housing being the most notable, with employment not far behind)”

    I for one was around during the ‘Old Unionist days’ and have ample statistics to debunk your bigoted tripe.

    I have read your previous comments on postings made here and you come across as a blinkered bigoted unionist.

    The modern troubles didnt happen in a vacuum, there was widespread sectarianism and discrimination commited by the Orange state against Catholics – FACT, no getting away from it.

    The UVF were shooting and bombing their way through Ireland prior to the modern IRA coming into existence.

    So go read up on Irish history warts and all.

  • Son of Strongbow

    The discrimination in housing allocation in the “Orange Statelet” has been much exaggerated. However much like many nationalist myths it has been repeated so often as now to be taken as fact (see above).

    There is much on the CAIN website and elsewhere that sets the issue in a more realistic context. The problem was evident in a minority of local authorities, most notably west of the Bann.

    Even the first chair of the Housing Executive publicly stated that the matter had been exaggerated. During the bad old unionist days three in ten Prods had public housing against four in ten Catholics. Interesting percentages given the differences in representation in the general population of the two groups.

    Although completely unacceptable it has been purposefully inflated as part of the justification narrative that aids a revisionist view of the antecedents of nationalist terrorist violence.

    However at this remove, and given it is a central issue in demonising unionists, it is futile to even attempt to debunk the myth.

    That being said I simply ponder the quid pro quo of the revenge balance sheet. How much death/maiming/damage is to be set against not getting public housing/the job wanted?

    Is it a council house = a death? Perhaps that’s too steep. How about one dead body = ten shunts down the housing waiting list?

    Can we have some ballpark figures please?

  • Disaffected Citizen

    By that rationale Son of Strongbow what justification did loyalist paramilitaries have for catholics? If as republicans state protestants got all the jobs and all the houses, what justification did loyalists have for their campaign of murder, was it just because Catholics were Catholics???

    No matter how you try to hide it there was widespread discrimination both in housing and employment Then like now (with Nelson McCausland’s massaging of the waiting list figures in North Belfast), Unionists prefer to believe that there was nothing wrong with the Orange state, that they loved their catholic neighbours, treated them the same as their own, and that the catholics woke up one morning and just decided to join the IRA and start killing poor innocent peace loving equality minded god fearing protestants. Fortunately, the rest of the world know the truth.

  • ayeYerMa

    Disaffected Citizen, I will give you this to start:
    http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/issues/discrimination/gudgin99.htm

    I do not want to get into this in detail, as it’s been discussed in detail numerous times. However, for all the evidence of “discrimination” in jobs against Catholics, similar reasoning can be used to make the same claims about numerous Protestants in areas like Newry. Yet, you will rarely hear any self-selecting academic in the myopic field of “Irish history” mention the latter, nor the wider statistics, as they would rather focus on the hysteria around individual cases.

    Then there is the problem that in recent decades the meaning of the word “discrimination” seems to have flipped from a neutral or positive (where a moral person would discriminate between right and wrong) to almost exclusively a negative, especially for someone steeped in leftist dogma. Any sensible government around the world who carrys out its prime duty to protect its citizens will “discriminate” in favour of those loyal to the state and against those trying to undermine and subvert it – that’s simply common sense.

    I see you are also perpetrating the notion that the “modern” IRA as being somehow separate and detached, ignoring the many connections to what went on earlier in the 60s with “change of direction” where IRA men were directly involved in founding the NICRA via Wolfe Tone Societies as a new strategy. This, together with the later IRA “Troubles” (sic) actually rather neatly fits into the classic Soviet subversion strategies attempted across the West during the Cold War, namely of: demoralize (NICRA involvement + “useful idiots” , as well as the various other “revolutionary” anti-traditionalist movements at the time across the west) -> destabilize (riots and initial terror) -> chaos (full-fledged terror campaign all round) -> normalize (take power and act in contradiction to everything you encouraged during “demoralization”).

    For details of what I’m talking about here, watch this extremely intriguing and eye-opening video on subversion tactics from a KGB defector (well worth your time, no matter your views) : [Yuri Bezmenov (former kgb) Psychological Warfare …: http://youtu.be/SZnkULuWFDg ] Note also the tactics he mentions that are necessary to defeat such a subversion.

    Given the known KGB contacts to IRA men, it wouldn’t surprise me at all if they were trained in these methods (as all KGB were, according to Bezmenov) and if such a subversion strategy was behind such a change in tact. I don’t, however, expect “Irish history” academics to even consider a wider Cold War angle as no doubt too much of their time is spent raking over the famine yet again.

  • ayeYerMa

    … also forgot to mention the Garda intelligence reports on IRA training and recruitment activities in the mid 60s.

  • Son of Strongbow

    Disaffected Citizen,

    I wasn’t offering a “rationale” rather I was countering your own rather jaundiced view of the “Orange state” [sic] by offering a soupçon of evidence.

    However I’m unsurprised that you respond with the tiresome ‘it was the Prods what done it’. In your sectarian worldview the “unionists” (and as you didn’t qualify that any further you must mean all unionists) are guilty, and their “catholic neighbours” (again I take it ‘all’ Catholics) were their victims.

    I neither try to “hide” anything (in order to boost your argument you will have overlooked where I said discrimination, in the pejorative sense of the word, was, and is, “completely unacceptable”), or do I offer any defence of “loyalist paramilitaries”. There is no defence, excuse or justification for terrorism of any hue – though I note you again offer a partial justification for nationalist terrorism in the penultimate sentence of your 11:25pm post last night.

    Oh, and even though you appear to believe that you speak for “the rest of the world”, I very much doubt you would know the “truth” if it happened to cut a path through the MOPE forest that seems to surround you to say ‘hello’.

  • Am Ghobsmacht

    SoS

    “MOPE forest”

    May I borrow that sometime?

    My own reservoir of MOPE analogies, metaphors and comparisons is running alarmingly low.

  • Son of Strongbow

    AG,

    Feel free. I never bother with copyright.

    Can I interest you in something else from my arboreal line: some nationalists can’t see the whinge for the tears?

    I do caution you however. Some can be snippy about these things. You know for some of themuns it’s either a famine or a famine. :)

  • Neil

    SoS,

    such a funny character, always there with a ‘joke’. Strangely enough though he seems to be able to on one hand demand how many lives per move on the housing list, then further down the page somehow draw a line back from that period to ‘let them eat grass’ some centuries earlier.

    So obviously he’s aware that 1641, 1690 etc. etc. occurred, and that the housing list wasn’t necessarily the prime motivator in the troubles, nor was employment discrimination merely factors in a centuries long running argument. That said, from the much vaunted CAIN site, the last paragraph of the conclusion of a study on the subject:

    A more helpful classification might be geographical. A group of local authorities in the west of the province provide a startlingly high proportion of the total number of complaints. All the accusations of gerrymandering, practically all the complaints about housing and regional policy, and a disproportionate amount of the charges about public and private employment come from this area. The area- which consisted of Counties Tyrone and Fermanagh, Londonderry County Borough, and portions of Counties Londonderry and Armagh – had less than a quarter of the total population of Northern Ireland yet generated not far short of three-quarters of the complaints of discrimination. Elsewhere, discrimination occurred. The USC was everywhere a Protestant militia; some police decisions betrayed partisanship; there were fewer Catholics in the higher reaches of the public service than were willing and qualified to serve; some private firms discriminated against Catholics. But when all this is said, the prominence of an area in the west remains. There, the greyness of the picture over most of the province changes to an ominous darkness. The unionist government must bear its share of responsibility. It put through the original gerrymander which underpinned so many of the subsequent malpractices, and then, despite repeated protests, did nothing to stop those malpractices continuing The most serious charge against the Northern Ireland government is not that it was directly responsible for widespread discrimination, but that it allowed discrimination on such a scale over a substantial segment of Northern Ireland.

    But I suppose the most stark evidence comes from the simple fact that the British decided Stormont pre ’72 had to be shut down. I suppose at that point your final ‘joke’ must hove into view:

    You know for some of themuns it’s either a famine or a famine.

    The famine’s over, why don’t you go home eh SoS. Another joke from that very short Loyalist jokebook. Sure why not follow up with the tim honoured zinger regarding some reference to foodstuffs combined with the name Bobby Sands.

    Pig grunts. World moves on.

  • Neil

    Incidentally, that CAIN report only refers to the period prior to 72. So when talking about the behaviour of the police the burning of Bombay Street overseen by the same, won’t get a mention.

    And lest you should die laughing at yet another amusing SoS style ‘joke’ tim is a mispelling of the word time in the final paragraph above. I know some of your chums in the overtly sectarian Rangers section tend to use that as a synonym for taig or fenian. Wouldn’t want you to herniate now.

  • tacapall

    Thats what religious bigots do Neil, cherry pick narratives that suit their opinions and re-define the boundaries of right and wrong now and again, depending on whether your religious belief starts with a P or an C or even a J to justify their bigotry. Some promoted narratives are debatable and open to further examination, but like night follows day, we have to look at previous history and recorded facts, like what was and what wasn’t legal to do in Ireland, laws that didn’t apply to protestants. The native population of Ireland – those who lived here before the plantations the vast majority who practiced the catholic faith have for centuries been discriminated against in every way possible by all British governments that maintained the imposed union between Ireland and Britain. Sword in one hand bible in the other an all that, the ends justify the means except when its used against us kind of mindset.

  • ayeYerMa

    I see quotes from the flawed Whyte analysis above which ignored overall stats in general, rather than the Gudgin link I gave…

    This highlights the point I see missed entirely in these endless attempts at point-scoring by Nat/Rep subversives, using the word “discrimination” as a weapon (a bit like those who like to shout words like “sectarian” or “bigot” or “racist” or “xenophobe”, “homophobe” etc. etc. as insults to shout down the nuanced arguments of opponents) , is that whether making decisions regarding certain characteristics is “unjust” is indeed entirely SUBJECTIVE, depending upon:
    - morality system
    (as Bezmenov says in the video above, there is nowhere in any mainstream religion that states “equality” is a natural right, as equality is an artificial ideal that does not exist in nature, and was spread as Machiavellian Marxist propaganda by Communists for subversion purposes of the target state to encourage them to move from absolute to relative morality)
    - political objective and ideology of current system
    - laws at the time (not contemporary) [and with wrt "discrimination" they are a very recent Cultural Marxism-derived construct]
    - democratic opinion at the time
    - socio-economic conditions at the time
    - degree of naivety
    - degree of pragmatism
    - degree of dominance or submissiveness – fight or flight, can survive on own or want to depend on others
    - how much you want to encourage responsibility and self-reliance vs. hand-outs and charity
    - how much you prioritise “rights” and responsibilities as belonging to the collective as a whole, to various groups, or to the individual
    - understanding of third party factors such as geography, ethos and culture of various parties
    - access to accurate statistics
    - nature and understanding of your enemy, how ruthless he is, and the threat you face, and your understanding of strategy to defeat him
    - degree of responsibility and peaceful political cooperation of the “victim”
    - degree of intelligence
    - environment of upbringing, social relationships
    - etc.

    To sidetrack quite a bit more, an example of an alternative system to our own which I think has a lot going for it as is more in-touch with nature/biology is a Libertarian ideology based on natural moral philosophy (absolute natural morality based on evolutionary biological realities as well as scientific observation) and a system that ensures the optimum survival of Civilization as a whole, the rights that matter the most therefore being the “negative rights” of the individual and protecting the system as a whole. Groups in between are not regarded so important as the individual and his family, and collective groups would not be granted “rights”, rather the rights that trump all others are that of both the individual and his family (the smallest minority) and the rights of the whole (stringent defence of the whole from any form of subversive threat in order to defend the system of liberty.) If a business were to negatively “discriminate” in such a time then over time they would lose business as people boycotted and would lose out as a result in a natural free market. The only controls on business would be when they become too powerful – corporations are not people and so don’t deserve “rights” so cannot exploit…

  • http://www.selfhatinggentile.blogger.com tmitch57

    @David,

    At what point in time did Jamie Bryson surpass Willie Frazer as the most colorful and interesting character on the fringe loyalist Right?

  • Son of Strongbow

    MOPEs must be a bit like buses. You could wait all day for one then two come along together.

  • Morpheus

    Aren’t you guys forgetting about the most obvious one – ‘One man one vote”?

    Plural Voting as it was called was abolished in the UK in 1948 but it remained in Northern Ireland until 1968.

    This from Dr Landon Hancock on the Cain website:

    “Two categories of voters were formed to ensure Protestant dominance at the polls:
    (1) the ‘ratepayers’, primary occupiers of a household as either tenants or owners, and
    (2) persons who owned commercial property valued at £10 or more per year.
    As only two people per house were allowed to vote, the ratepayer category effectively excluded lodgers or adult children living at home. Both lodgers and adult children living at home tended to be Catholics due to their lower overall economic status and larger families; thus, Catholic franchise was restricted.

    People in the second category, that is, owners of commercial property, were allowed to nominate special voters for each £10 of value of their property, up to a maximum of six voters (Darby 1976, 50). Since over 90 per cent of the commercial property in Northern Ireland was Protestant owned, this provision expanded their voting franchise and, along with the ratepayer category, extended Unionist control over the ballot box and the government. ”

    He didn’t mention that those in the second category could also nominate special voters in different constituencies:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plural_voting#Northern_Ireland

    So while it did apply to both communities keeping Plural Voting for 20 years AFTER the rest of the UK didn’t have the same effect on both communities.

    In places like Derry it was the Lord Mayor who allocated social housing so local elections to decide who the Lord Mayor was were crucial. According to the Cain website
    “Housing needs at that time were so desperate that hundreds of families, nearly all Catholic, squatted” into Nissen huts which had just been vacated by the American Army. Even now, more than twenty years later, many of these people have not yet been re-housed (the precise number at this moment is 59 huts, housing 90 families), in spite of the fact that the huts are in a tumbledown condition and rat-infested.”
    Issued by THE CAMPAIGN FOR SOCIAL JUSTICE IN NORTHERN IRELAND in 1965.

    You would swear that we were talking about feudal middle England when Robin Hood was knocking about

  • Disaffected Citizen

    The problem with Sos and AyeYerMa is that they only post statistics or links to statistics that try and debunk discrimination against Catholics in NI.

    There is no disputing that working class Protestants were also discriminated against (by their own middle class and upper class kind). However, it is fact that Catholics were discriminated against more widely in both housing and employment.

    Various studies have tried to dispute previous studies arguing either against or for the fact of discrimination against mainly Catholics.

    SoS seemed to want to sidestep the question I asked which was what was the justification for loyalists paramilitaries slaughtered unarmed innocent Catholics? Maybe he is of the same opinion as Billy Hutchinson that by doing so was preventing a united Ireland.

    Until the PUL community as a whole admit once and for all that the ‘Orange State’ was discriminatory, and stop demonising one set of paramilitaries whilst at the same time referring to their own paramilitaries as defenders, and try to justify their existence and atrocities, until Unionist politicians come out loudly and publicly against paramilitaries on both sides, paramilitary murals on both sides, paramilitary commemerations on boths sides, sectarianism on both sides etc etc etc, I fear that we are stuck in this merry-go-ground of whataboutry and picking and choosing aspects of history that suit one or the other sides argument.

  • Son of Strongbow

    Disaffected Citizen,

    I can only surmise you experience some difficulty in comprehending the English language.

    Surely that can be the only explanation for my comment, “There is no defence, excuse or justification for terrorism of any hue…..” being interpreted by you as a “sidestep” to responding to your comment on the “justification” (your word) for loyalist terrorist murders.

    Of course I am being flippant with regard to your English comprehension. As a sectarian bigot you ignore what is written before your eyes and immediately jump to your default position of unionist = bad.

    I also expect your somewhat ambivalent views about nationalist terrorism informs your studied inability to ‘understand’ when you see condemnation of terrorism of “any hue”, i.e. all terrorism, presented to you.

  • Disaffected Citizen

    SoS

    What annoys me most about comments made by both yourself and AyeYerMa is that you continually highlight Republican indiscretions, whilst keeping quiet about Loyalists indiscretions.

    And if anyone highlights this fact or argues against your comments they are automatically tagged as being a sectarian bigot or a Republican.

    Maybe you should look back over comments you have made on various postings over recent times, take a good hard look at your one sided pro unionist anti nationalist comments and then come back to me when you have a more balanced outlook on the history of our country instead of your blinkered unionist (we did absolutely nothing wrong, it was all themuns that caused all the problems) views.

  • Son of Strongbow

    Disaffected Citizen,

    Yet again you ignore what I have posted and go back on your tiresome traditional route. I expect you can’t help yourself.

  • Disaffected Citizen

    SoS

    I would try and come back with some meaningful well thought out response, but I am still laughing from the words ‘your tiresome traditional route’ I thought that would be more befitting for you!!!!!!

  • Son of Strongbow

    Oh dear, satire too sophisticated for you?

    However a “meaningful well though out response” [sic] would have been a pleasant change.

  • looneygas

    Neil,

    I thought the burning of Bombay St. was Aug. 1969.

  • Son of Strongbow

    Bombay Street was burned in August 1969. I suppose that could be referred to as the “period before 1972″ if you weren’t overly concerned with details.

    Those who trot out such material really only rely on a miasma of partisan stories to fuel the MOPE ‘narrative’. You won’t hear about the nationalist terrorist gunfire, or the concentrated attacks on Hastings Street police station, both orchestrated as part of a series of disturbances to divert scant police resources away from Londonderry that occurred during the same few days.

    Such splitting of police attention resulted in the police having to call forward USC manpower, a body never designed for public order duties to assist. The reduction in police availability across NI also had the knock-on effect of leaving the police under strength not only in dealing with nationalist rioters but also unable to control loyalists, including in Belfast a crowd of football supporters returning from a match who joined in the general disturbances.

    Of course this was subsequently mythologised as part of a Stormont Grand Plan, no doubt one that had been sitting on the books since 1922.

    It should be remembered that at this time the entire RUC numbered less than the current PSNI do in the Greater Belfast area alone.

  • looneygas

    Sneaky old nationalist terrorists goading the good people into burning their houses.

  • Neil

    My mistake, apologies. I have to stop coming here when drunk.

  • Son of Strongbow

    That’s an impressive and insightful summation looneygas. With that level of knowledge you should consider lecturing on Irish history. I expect you’d be able to cover the period 1968 – 2014 in a paragraph or so.

  • looneygas

    Don’t sweat it, Strongblow. The subject of this thread and his generation know all too well that the loyal population of NI are the innocent victims of nationalist terrorist plotting. No need to huff and puff.

  • Decspur

    SOS, a member of the British government of the time described the situation in Northern Ireland in 69 as “tyranny, a mild form of tyranny but tyranny all the same” that from your closest allies. Thoughts please?

  • Son of Strongbow

    “Thoughts please?”

    You may be referring to comments made by Sir Oiliver Wright? He was not a “member of the British government”, he was a Foreign Office diplomat who spent less than a year in NI.

    However that being said he was entitled to his opinion as he expressed it back in 1969.

    The British Government is not my “closest allies”. It is the government of the state where I live. Given the vagaries of democracy I have had various “thoughts” over the years about the Government, both collectively and of the individuals that were part of it.

  • Reader

    Morpheus (and quote) : Plural Voting as it was called was abolished in the UK in 1948 but it remained in Northern Ireland until 1968.
    This from Dr Landon Hancock on the Cain website:
    “Two categories of voters were formed to ensure Protestant dominance at the polls:”

    You note, I hope, that he is contradicting you. Either a creaky old conservative and unionist government didn’t roll out labour government reforms of the England and Wales local council franchise into Northern Ireland; or a cabal of cunning orange psephologists set the whole thing up.
    Personally, I think you are more correct than Hancock, who looks like a bit of a professional mope.

  • Morpheus

    Not sure how it contradicts what I said. Plural voting was in place throughout the UK and Northern Ireland but it was abolished in 1948 everywhere but here because it ensured Protestant dominance at the polls, especially in Derry. It was not corrected until 1968 and took effect in the next elections. Transferring votes to a different constituency that needed them must have really helped

  • GEF

    Plural Voting was not anti Catholic because the majority of business people happened to be Protestant in Derry. It was the opposite in Newry were the majority of business people happened to be Catholic who were also intitled to plural voting. What happened in Derry City was the Gerrymandering of local council electoral boundaries by Stormont to keep the majority Catholics in one area and give Protestants two areas and therefore twice as many Unionist councillors compared to Nationalist councillors could be voted in at election time.

    Northern Ireland: “Before the Electoral Act of 1968-9, local government elections in Northern Ireland allowed owners of businesses to cast more than one vote.”

  • Reader

    Morpheus: Plural voting was in place throughout the UK and Northern Ireland but it was abolished in 1948 everywhere but here because it ensured Protestant dominance at the polls, especially in Derry.
    As GEF intimated – especially not in Derry, where Derry corp had an alternative scheme in place from the outset. In fact, I’m not sure there was a council area where keeping the old franchise actually made a difference to control.
    Do you actually think Hancock was right to say “Two categories of voters were formed to ensure Protestant dominance at the polls”? I think that’s either very badly phrased, or downright misleading. Not analysis, but advocacy.

  • Morpheus

    Oh no Reader,I appreciate that the political unionists in Derry had their own deeply immoral scheme to ensure dominance but it is no coincidence that there was a unionist mayor right from the creation of Northern Ireland and it look Plural voting to be abolished and the introduction of one man one vote in 1968 to finally get a nationalist one.

  • Reader

    Morpheus: …it look Plural voting to be abolished and the introduction of one man one vote in 1968 to finally get a nationalist one.
    No – it was fair ward boundaries that did that. So far as I can recall any analysis I have seen has done the sums based on proportionality alone.

  • Morpheus

    Just looked up and it turns out that we are both right, new boundaries were drawn and there was a transfer to stv ending plural voting.

    The bit that sticks in my throat is that until that point if they were struggling in say Fermanagh they simply transfered votes from say Belfast to make up the numbers to ensure dominance. The history books will not be kind

  • David McCann

    UPDATE-Bryson has confirmed he will now not run in the European elections-A week is is truly a long time in politics

  • Morpheus

    Who?

    :)

  • Charles_Gould

    Sam McBride tweets:

    “Jamie Bryson, who in an online appeal raised just £165 of £5k Euro election deposit, says money will now go to his council election campaign”