More symptoms of that political psychosis…

They’re at it again in Londonderry, where The Sentinel reports that Sinn Féin MLA Raymond McCartney “has attacked the Ordnance Survey of Ireland for its preference for ‘Londonderry’ over ‘Derry.'”  That would be the same place that will be the UK City of Culture in 2013…  From The Sentinel report

“I have raised this matter directly with Ordnance Survey Ireland and the Minister to which they are responsible, Eamon Ryan TD and made it quite clear that I find it offensive to see a map produced by the National Mapping Agency which ignores the aspirations of the vast majority of Derry citizens who are proud of their Irish identity.”

[He does know it remains an aspiration because it hasn’t been achieved? – Ed]  Presumably…  at least, I think he knows he’s still in the UK… 

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  • Gerry Lvs Castro

    ‘Dear Mr McCartney We find it offensive that you are such a small minded little bigot who appears unable to get a life. If this is the best Sinn Fein can offer, it’s not exactly surprising that your electoral mandate south of the border is derisory. Love Ordance Survey Ireland.’

  • joeCanuck

    Slight misspelling, Pete. Not Ordinance. Delete this comment at will.

  • Pete Baker

    I’ll correct it. But it was a cut and paste from The Sentinel’s report…

  • DC

    I wish he was as edgy over the state of the economy.

  • William Markfelt

    ‘it was a cut and paste from The Sentinel’s report…’

    Funniest thing I’ve ever read on Slugger. Brilliant!

  • William Markfelt

    ‘at least, I think he knows he’s still in the UK… ‘

    If he does, he’s ahead of Maeve McLaughlin, SF leader on Derry City Council.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/mar/03/derry-divide-culture-uk

    “While we are a city of culture there has to be a recognition that we’re not part of the UK.”

  • Pippakin

    If only it were a United Ireland these people want. It looks to me as though what they really want is all their own way.

  • Pete Baker

    William

    You haven’t looked at what’s at the end of the link at that part of the text in the original post.

  • joeCanuck

    It’s all fluff. The official title is still Londonderry and almost everyone I have known, no matter what their religion or lack thereof, calls the place Derry. Time to put this bit of nonsense away until there is a UI.
    Then we can call it Doire.

  • Pippakin

    How can people recognise a fact in one breath and deny it in another and still expect to be taken seriously.

  • William Markfelt

    True, Pete. I didn’t chase down all the links, and that story preceded my entry to Slugger.

  • John East Belfast

    Psychosis is an excellent description of this mind set.

    London is among the top 5 cities on the planet and to be associated with that brand is something to be cherished and, if they had any sense, exploited.

    Londonderry is bereft enough of employment opportunities and considering the efforts made to attract Irish American investment to this island – and the north west in particular – then instead of insulting them at every opportunity they should be cosying up to them.

    They could be thinking of ingenious ways to extract back office London Financial Services jobs instead of doing all they can to distance themselves.

    What a squandering waste of an opportunity

  • joeCanuck

    Perhaps there’s a parallel universe (talk to string theorists) where you can also be a leader of an illegal organization while not belonging to it.

  • Itwas SammyMcNally whatdoneit

    Derry had the prefix London attached to celebrate the ethnic cleansing of the area and should be dropped and until it is Nationalists are quite at libertry to express their justified dislike of it.

    I’m sure Britian is thoroughly ashamed of it’s plantations of Ireland – and they can start to show it by ridding us of that dreadful and insulting miss-tag.

  • John East Belfast

    Sammy

    Maybe Londoners should drop London themselves then in protest to what the Romans did.

    City Building/ethnic cleansing take your pick – either way 400 years have passed and this is a different world where – unless you are Al Qaeda and see it is the HQ of Little Satan – London is an economic power house and is one of the greatest cities on the planet.

    You are shooting yourself on the foot – and further alienating unionists – by this paranoid psychosis

  • joeCanuck

    Of course, and, at the same time, make all those planter “Brits” go home. Then we’ll have such a harmonious island that all of the world will admire us and try to emulate our idyllic state.
    Not sure where we’ll send the Roma though.

  • Pippakin

    It’s my fault of course. I always make the mistake of expecting sanity from these people.

    I have always liked science fiction and even science fantasy, but there is no way an imagination, however fertile, could make this stuff up. As for parallel universe, Im all for it as long as their are no tree hugging, bible carrying lying little toe rags in it.

  • DC

    Now now Joe. Just watch yourself with those comments because they seem tantamount to counter-revolutionary propaganda.

  • redhugh78

    To Hell or to Connaught?

  • Why, anyway, should we be paying for two Ordnance Surveys in Ireland (or 3 in the British Isles) anyway?

    Surely with the cuts they should all be merged into one.

    Then they might be able to afford to give away more mapping data to the hackers who can mashup the datat to produce better applications (like codeforpizza is doing with the Translink data).

    Indeed, a really big cutter would be scrapping separate departments in Belfast and Dublin and setting up big and powerful cross-border bodies, rather than the tokenistic ones we have now.

  • Im sure the citizens of Stroke City lie awake at night worrying about such matters! No doubt it will receive the usual prominence given to such matters in tomorrows Derry Journal.

  • joeCanuck

    Sorry, Dave.
    That would be too sensible.
    On the specific issue, for the individual larger scale maps which cross political boundaries, I have to think that they do share information. I have quite a few and they seem seamless.

  • Dec

    We should rename it Parisderry then – why settle for top 5 when you can have Number 1.

  • Pippakin

    Redhugh 78

    Connaught?

  • Middlemarch

    I think it should be put to official vote & an order to change the official name to Derry or remain Londonderry should be made. Democratic means of course!

  • Pete Baker
  • redhugh78

    apols…Connacht. Coventry for me.

  • Mr E Mann

    a democratic vote by whom? People in D/LD, all of NI, the island or Ireland, the UK?

  • Mr E Mann

    nah, Rioderry. They’re trying to attract tourism, right?

  • Itwas SammyMcNally whatdoneit

    JEB,

    We cant compare “what the Romans did” (yes Education, Roads etc) to Ulster becuase of the passage of time – I dont recall there being the equivalent of the GFA to settle an ongoing dipsute between the Romans and the British or the modern Italian government feeling the need to apologise for their imperial behaviour like Mr Blair did.

    Ethnic cleansing and renaming of part of other peoples territory is not relevant as long as the intervening history has not made it relevant – that is clearly not the case in Ireland – so the matter remains open and remains an insult.

    JoeC,

    I presume your remarks “make all those planter “Brits” go home” are aimed at me, well sorry to disappoint you but I dont think that the descendents of Planters should be sent home but rather should be respectful of their postion in history and respectful of the country they enjoy living in.

    Ethnic cleansing is not something to celebrate but to be mindful of and is certainly not something to celebrate irrespective of whether the rather silly idea that London (a city for which I have a great fondnesss) is going to start throwing money at its poor Irish namesake.

    Regarding democratic votes perhpas we can get Boris to have a referendum to have the right to use the term London revoked.

  • iluvni

    Its time they painted UK City of Culture on that gable wall?

  • Itwas SammyMcNally whatdoneit

    lol

  • Johnkingii

    Reminds me of the fun I used to have working in the civil service sending out letters to stroke city if they lived in the creggan bogside or shantallow I addressed them Londonderry if they lived in newbuildings caw or irish street I addressed them Derry I am sure it livened up the breakfast time postal delivery no end

  • fin

    Why not sell the naming rights of the city on say 2-5 year contracts same as they do for football grounds and other venues,

    O2 City
    Aviva City
    Emerites City
    etc

  • Pippakin

    There is the city and there is the county, surely all that’s needed is to officially name one Derry and the other Londonderry. Or is it that its not actually about a name, its about humiliating one part of the population.

  • John

    I’ve always argued that the most sensible solution would be to call the city Derry, but the part within the walls, The Walled City of Londonderry or something.

  • Itwas SammyMcNally whatdoneit

    this I would agree is the best compromise

  • pippakin

    ItwasSammyMcNally whatdoneit

    Thats a compromise? sure you wouldn’t rather rename the airport, sqeeze em all in and wait for them to take the hint.

  • Itwas SammyMcNally whatdoneit

    pippakin,

    “sure you wouldn’t rather rename the airport, sqeeze em all in and wait for them to take the hint.”

    No certainly not, let’s just make things up like Joe C above.

    There should be a concerted effort to ensure the Prod community not only survives on the City side but thrives(irrespective of any name change) – just remove the offensive name from the whole of the City but retain the name Londonderry to refer to the area within the walls.

  • pippakin

    Itwas SammyMcNally whatdoneit

    That is not equality. Protestants are our equals in everything and I cannot see how a UI can work unless everyone recognises that.

  • Anon

    So the minority enforcing its will is “democracy”.

    We have a binarty decision on the constitutional question. It’s a majority vote that decides that, with protections. What Sammy proposes is exactlyt he saem applied to Derry.

    Who loses in this? The Unionists parties can probably force the official name to be the same indefinitely. In doing so they breeed resentment and alienate themselves. they could write their own compromise and Nationalists and otherparties would queue up to implement them. But hey, not an inch.

  • Anon

    Why settle for earthly kingdoms here? Why not Heavenderry?

  • pippakin

    Anon

    Would giving both full recognition be a case of the minority imposing its will? I don’t think so.

  • Politico68

    A vote is a good idea, basically everyine who lives in Co Derry should be given the option to decide what they want.

    We know the outcome of course but arguing that one could offer the same possibilty to the population of any other city,town or county on the basis of a whim is just nonsense.

    I know of no other place in these isles where a Name is so divisive.

  • “As for parallel universe, Im all for it as long as their are no tree hugging, bible carrying lying little toe rags in it.” … Pippakin
    23 September 2010 at 10:18 pm

    Oh, of that you can be assured, Pippakin. The Intellectual Property Bar is just far too high for them.

    Spookily enough, the following submission, earlier today, was in reply to a article which was sharing the future view of a processing Titan in the Parallel Field …….

    [blockquote]You aint seen nothing yet ….. but you were being told and kept abreast of outlandish developments

    Posted Friday 24th September 2010 08:07 GMT

    “A customer will have to ask him or herself, Huang said: “‘Do I buy a computer or do I sign up for a service?’ Notice that question that I ask, if it lands in one place or in the other place, completely changes the computer industry. Completely.””

    Hmmm … And that can evolve and resolve to float one the question …”Which computer terminating service do I buy into?” Indeed, the posit here is that that is the present enigmatic zillion dollar question for Cyber Cloud Crowd Controllers ….. SMART Virtual AIgents*.

    And I would be both amazed and disappointed and highly delighted if that quantum leap question was not already answered and being built upon by Nvidia chief exec Jen-Hsun Huang, who does appear to be light years ahead of any Opposition or Competition, and that extraordinarily renders to One an Almost Absolute AIRoaDynamic Control with HyperRadioProActive Powers in Sublime Command and Control of JOINT InterNetworking Networks[JIN/JINN] which are Virtually Invisible and Invincible when Intangible and Omniscient and Practically Omnipotent.

    And Searching to Find with Imaginative Programs and Novel BetaTests the Systemic Flaw to Crash and Burn that Great Game, is a Work of Prior Art in Creation ……. and Easily Ensures that Devilish Arrogance doesn’t overtake a Venerable Humility to Founder on the Crazy Rocks of Delusion, rather than Deliver Blessed Inspiration and Holy Aspiration. The Tempestuous See has ITs Own Guardians Running for Parallel Computations in Virtual Reality Fields.

    *Sharp Tegran Units

    And I’ll have an early drink too, and order a comprehensive round to celebrate Jen-Hsun Huang HyperVision, and it’s Friday too … 🙂

    http://forums.theregister.co.uk/forum/1/2010/09/24/huang_muses_at_gtc/ [/blockquote]

  • Itwas SammyMcNally whatdoneit

    Politico68

    Hasn’t Cameron been jabbering on about local decision making ( much of it admitedely simply mumbo-jumbo that nearly resulted in him not even scraping into Number 10 even aginast a massively unpopular Labout party) well, lets as you say, have some local democracy in Derry shall we?

  • D

    Em…. thats a bit of a no-brainer. The only people with a say in the name change should be the folk who live, work and pay their rates there. Why in the hell should people in Belfast, Omagh, Newry, Portadown, etc. get a say in whether its Derry or Londonderry? Do Derry folk get a say on local council issues in Belfast, Omagh, etc? Nope.

  • Oracle

    The last thing you want to do is to give the people of the disputed city an opportunity to vote on the issue, recent history has shown the democratic process has been extremely problematic for them.
    You wouldn’t seriously offer the ability to decision make to an electorate that actually elected Martina Anderson!
    She doesn’t know if she’s Irish or British whether Stormont is good or bad, whether she’s a Nationalist or a Republican, or whether she’s dressed for Hollywood or Halloween.

    My personal preference is to rename the city Kleenex because they’ve done some yapping over the years!

  • Anon

    You can’t have “full recognition” of both names, just as NI can’t be part of the Republic and UK at the same time. Furthermore, it just creates a continuous divide. The Protestants of Derry neeed to be part of that city in full part.

    It’s all very well saying nationalists should just climb down to help them, but why exactly should a large majority submit to the will of a minority just because they refuse to bend? Nope. A compromise is needed. That is only possible if Derry Unionists decide they are willing to compromise. Until then, it’s ultimately them that suffer most.

    That was equally true of nationalists pre-GFA.

  • Anon

    This is, as with most of the “political psychosis” points, balls. There are two ways to effect change.

    1. Change the official situation and have everything flow out from there.
    2. Change everything else, or enough of it that the offical change becomes inevitable.

    You can argue the efficiency of 1 over 2. But both approaches have worked in the past. The First Dail was a first rate piece of “psychosis”. I’m pretty sure you could find examples of both failing too. Regardless of actual theological views, Pete is a Bible bashing Prod at heart, to whom only sola scripture matters. But modern SF are a very Catholic party. If he has no insight beyond it then taht is his lookout.

    I’m pretty sure Irish passports will give Derry and the Irish government typically will refer to it; SF are perfectly entitled to lodge complaint at another part of the state. The actual official name is neither here nor there. Unless you really think there will be some confusions with Derry, New Hampshire. It’s what the Irish Gvernment officially calls it.

  • Pippakin

    Anon

    You are not talking about a compromise you are talking about a surrender, and you know it. If they won’t bend, break em.

    I don’t want to see any more people broken and humiliated by the troubles. To win the peace it has to be better than that.

  • Paddy Matthews

    Thats a compromise? sure you wouldn’t rather rename the airport, sqeeze em all in and wait for them to take the hint.

    1. Sell the airport to Michael O’Leary.
    2. He renames it London (Derry).

    Problem solved…

  • Pippakin

    Paddy Matthews

    LOL I wouldn’t be a bit surprised. Mind even he might not get away with the brackets!

  • Anon

    No I am talking about a compromise. What do they want? The walled city to remain “Londonderry” and nationalist pols to use it? Sure. Promoted seprately within the Derry package? Sure. Links with London, and opportunities for the peple from that part of the city? I’m sure it could be arranged. But I don’t presume to know what is they would like in exchange for petitioning the Privy council to change the name. I don’t know this, because all they’ve ever said is not an inch.

  • Pippakin

    Anon

    I think they want their equality protected. It is what I would want and it would hurt no one if a real genuine and generous compromise could be agreed.

    It is a shared history and protestant history should take its rightful place beside catholics not be buried somewhere in ever decreasing relevance, except of course when it’s dragged into the limelight to explain away some appalling act of violence

    It hurts no one to divide the two equally and it might help some to come to terms with change.

  • Paddy Matthews

    Mind even he might not get away with the brackets!

    A Michael O’Leary-Pete Baker deathmatch sounds promising…

  • JJ malloy

    Whether the city is known as Londonderry or Derry will make no difference to possible investors. In fact, IMO it makes no difference to vast majority of people on this island. Only a small portion of those in the 6 counties waste any effort on this pointless dispute.

    BTW, they are changing the name of New York back to New Amsterdam.

  • D

    ‘The last thing you want to do is to give the people of the disputed city an opportunity to vote on the issue, recent history has shown the democratic process has been extremely problematic for them.’

    Are you sure you didnt mix up Derry with Zimbabwe? I don’t remember hearing about any problems with democracy in Derry. As far as I’m aware elections there pass off peacefully and without contention. Or do you mean the people vote for, what in your eyes constitutes, the ‘wrong’ parties? And any vote on the name change will bring about the ‘wrong’ result for you? And as for attacking Martina, I fully accept the majority of politicians in the city are a bunch of clowns but to single her out when other parts of NI vote in the likes of Sammy Wilson, Iris Robinson, Peter Robinson and Gerry Adams! Take your blinkers off – there are far worse elected into power!

  • D

    pippakin

    I take it that based on your logic unionism will recognise that a significant minority don’t want NI to be in the union and compromise accordingly? Will there be some kind of joint authority with Ireland? I doubt it. Unionisms call has always been ‘we’re in the majority so stick it up yer a*se!’ Its no surprise to me that when the situation is reversed suddenly its all about compromise or better yet, just leave the damn name alone so we can have our cake and eat it!

    I think the point here is that the right of nationalists to call the city Derry is not protected or treated equally, as the official name resolutely remains Londonderry and only that. Indeed the sheer number of times that I’ve had the question ‘don’t you mean Londonderry!’ barked back at me upon revealing my city of birth highlights you’re average unionist’s complete inability to ‘protect my equality’ to call it that.

  • Pippakin

    D

    There has been compromise from unionists. The north is as it is today because of compromise. The name of the city and county has become a major obstacle, and no I am not a bit surprised at the reaction of some people to your use of the Irish name for the city/county.

    The point is Ireland has to persuade unionists not force them. I’m not interested in the ‘throw the dog a bone’ attitude of some.

  • joeCanuck

    Pippakin,
    While we seem to have similar thoughts on this subject, I am not convinced that it is a major obstacle to anything.
    I have strong attachments to Derry, my mother having been from there, and I have a lot of relatives in and around the city. I don’t think many if any, of them give a great deal of thought to the issue. At most it is a minor irritant. Nobody gets thrown into the clink because they, like almost everyone, call the place Derry.

  • Pippakin

    joe

    Oh no, I don’t think most people do care, just some very vociferous republicans and loyalists.

    Did I suggest anyone would be thrown in jail or even to the wolves? lol. I’m sure I would never dare.

  • Reader

    D: I think the point here is that the right of nationalists to call the city Derry is not protected or treated equally,
    You may call it what you like. You may refer to my home town as “Beannchar”, though the locals don’t any more. You may also refer to Northern Ireland as “the six counties”; you may refer to the 26 counties as the “Republic of Ireland” or even (bafflingly) as “Ireland”.
    In short, you are free, you have rights. Your problem is that other people have differing opinions. Tough.

  • Alias

    Maps produced by Ordnance Survey Ireland after May 2007 must comply with EC Directive 2007/2/EC and its construction of a pan-EU mapping database. As the Irish state no longer has any sovereignty in the production of its maps, it must usual the official name for Londonderry and not its pet name.

    It can still use the pet name in in roads signs (as it does) but it no longer has discretion in regard to its maps so the psychotic Shinner is barking up the wrong tree. If the Shinners want the EU to use Derry as the name then they will have to petition those who hold the sovereignty to change the name (Her Majesty’s Privvy Council).

  • Alias

    Typo: “…it must use the official name for Londonderry and not its pet name.”

  • barnshee

    Em…. thats a bit of a no-brainer. The only people with a say in the name change should be the folk who live, work and pay their rates there. Why in the hell should people in Belfast, Omagh, Newry, Portadown, etc. get a say in whether its Derry or Londonderry? Do Derry folk get a say on local council issues in Belfast, Omagh, etc? Nope.

    Golden opportunity for the derry wans to vote themselves into the ROI “closer connections with Donegal ” etc

  • joeCanuck

    Agree that it should be a local decision rather than a national one.
    Here in Ontario about 10 years ago we went through a period of consolidation locally mandated by the provincial Government. Nearby districts/towns/townships were “forced” to amalgamate in the interest of administrative efficiency. It was left to the locals to decide who would almalgamate with whom. Afterwards, of course, there was the problem of deciding what to call the new “municipality”. Most areas solved the problem by getting the citizenry to suggest names, then drew up a shortlist which was presented to the citizenry in a referendum held at the same time as the first local elections following amalgamation. It was nobody elses business other than the local electorate.

  • Alias

    “The only people with a say in the name change should be the folk who live, work and pay their rates there.” – barnshee

    Perhaps, but that would be subject to a change in UK law that is beyond the scope of the locals in NI. You lack the sovereignty to name your cities, and you also lack the sovereignty to determine the method by which your cities should to be named.

    The names of the British state’s cities are national issues (and properly so), not local, so they are subject to national self-determination, not local determination, which is exercised in the British state through Her Majesty’s on the advice of her Privy Council.

    However, there is another layer of bureaucracy that prevents the local democracy that you advocate: the Equality Commission. Local majorities have no automatic power of determination since they are now subject to the de facto veto of the minority under equality legislation. So even if the majority agreed, it is highly unlikely that the Sovereign power would give her permission when the Equality Commission has condemned majority-rule there as a breach of minority rights (the residents in the city who don’t want its name changed).

  • joeCanuck

    Alias,

    I don’t know the legal issues, but it doesn’t matter a lot. The official name is Londonderry and that will obviously not change unless there is a change in sovereignty (imagine, only another 6 years after over 300 years of terrible oppression wrt town names). Almost everyone locally, irrespective of religion, call the place Derry. It works.

  • Coll Ciotach

    Remember Hagar the Horrible of the All Night Party? What happened his campaign to change Derrycoole Way in Rathcoole to Londonderry Coole Way? “Forget the shite and vote All Night” best political slogan ever.

  • Glencoppagagh

    Symbolically the London prefix is appropriate because so much of the city’s regular income originates from London (not including one-off windfalls like the BS Inquiry).
    How about promising a change of name as soon as the city can achieve fiscal self-sufficiency i.e. when the amount it pays in taxes of all forms exceeds receipts from the state.
    Any attempt by Unionists to frustrate this ambition by, for example, breeding double-digit families at public expense would have to be taken into account, of course.

  • D

    ‘Symbolically the London prefix is appropriate because so much of the city’s regular income originates from London. How about promising a change of name as soon as the city can achieve fiscal self-sufficiency’

    You’ve just described Northern Ireland in its entireity, not just derry. A parasite state with a bloated public sector that devours far more resources than it gives back. I completely agree though, the city should aim for fiscal self-sufficiency but this requires good infrastructure, promotion of the area and political leadership. These are mainly the responsibility of the NI government which has been shown to be less than interested in the northwest down the years. London and Stormont must speculate (in derry) to accumulate. And lining the pockets of millionaire barristers is not the sort of spending that will encourage economic growth in the area!

    ‘Any attempt by Unionists to frustrate this ambition by, for example, breeding double-digit families at public expense would have to be taken into account, of course’

    Ah the old outdated, bigotted notion that all Derry families have 10 kids and no-one works. Good stuff, good stuff. Well you cant work when there are no jobs. How about stormont makes the effort to attract some investment to the area so that people can actually be employed?

  • Glencoppagagh

    D
    “lining the pockets of millionaire barristers is not the sort of spending that will encourage economic growth in the area!”

    Agree 100% with you on that whether your referring to BS Inquiry or the general scandal of legal aid.

    “old outdated, bigotted notion that all Derry families have 10 kids”
    Where did I say that? Even though the area has traditionally had the highest birth rate in the whole of Ireland, I doubt that it ever reached that figure.

  • jim

    NO JOBS.did they not shoot a few people up there for having jobs.oh and patsy gillispie turned into a human bomb for having the cheek to have a job

  • joeCanuck

    the area has traditionally had the highest birth rate in the whole of Ireland

    Very old joke.
    Derryman, walking down the street in the nude, arrested and charged with indecency.
    The Judge agreed with Defence Counsel that the man was in his working clothes.

  • What’s the connection with Rio – crime rates?

  • redhugh – is that from memory?