The political capital of asking for what you will not get…

Brexit has led to increasing demands for IndyRef2 and an NI border poll, and on principle, the British Government has not exactly been slow to rule them out.  Nicola Sturgeon is making the case that Brexit is changing the opinion of a large number of people in Scotland [A major change of circumstances? – Ed] and Sinn Fein have made a similar case.

However, all of this is apparently for nothing, because James Brokenshire has to be persuaded that the majority of people in Northern Ireland would prefer NI to be part of a united Ireland, and Theresa May is not obliged to put IndyRef2 to the Westminster Parliament.  So what’s the point?

Well, this.

At the moment, I don’t believe either referendum has a hope of winning.  The population in Scotland and Northern Ireland that believes we are better off in the EU is not the same as those who believe either is better off out of the UK and in the EU (assuming Scotland can speedily gain membership of the EU as an independent country).

However, it appears that Theresa May is not willing to take that chance.  Speculation suggests that they have too much to do with Brexit negotiations to be fighting referenda as well, and they do not want to risk losing.

If they did take that chance… well, both referenda are matters of head and heart.  It’s not enough to persuade people that they would like an independent Scotland or a united Ireland, you also have to persuade them that they would actually be better off than under the status quo.   Those voting with their hearts aren’t enough, those voting with their heads also have to be won over.

To hold either an NI referendum or a Scottish referendum in late 2018 or early 2019 would be far too early to change minds, because we don’t know how Brexit will play out.  Too many people in Northern Ireland and Scotland believe that we are economically and personally better off in the UK as individuals and a society – some call it the NHS effect, but it’s far bigger than that, and the good free trade deal that we actually need would see support for the status quo shored up – and they will vote with those who will always vote for the UK as a matter of their hearts.

And then what happens?

In the case of Northern Ireland, supposing we have a referendum in 2018, and then get a bad Brexit deal or none at all.  One that would make being part of a united Ireland a better economic deal for us.  When is the earliest we can revisit?  2025.  If NI’s economy tanks due to jobs moving to the EU very quickly post-Brexit, that’s a long time to wait.

That is it in a nutshell.

As long as the UK Government is unwilling to hold referenda on the constitutional status of Scotland and Northern Ireland, you can keep calling for them.  There is no risk of losing.

If the UK Government calls their bluff, SNP and Sinn Fein risk a big “No” from the public that will put the matter to bed for years.

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  • Ciarán Doherty

    The constitutional status of NI won’t the first thing to change but you can be sure once Scotland, Jersey, Guernsey, the Isle of Man, maybe even Gibraltar all find themselves either independent or in some kind of shared status with other EU countries – the ego collapse facing unionism in NI will be swift and extreme, particularly of course in the event of Scottish independence.

    And that is even without the economic implications. At the end of the day, two things change history more than anything else 1) unemployment and 2) currency deflation. NI post-Brexit faces both.

    I won’t claim to know what the result will be, even if a UI would be the most sensible and practical, but I will put my money where my mouth is an say that it won’t be the status quo.

  • Ciarán Doherty

    The only serious academic modelling of a merger of the ROI with NI, done just a few years ago (post-recession) concluded it would be of net economic benefit to the population of both the north and south.

    Did it not occur to you that being a forgotten and neglected backwater of a country over the sea might be the reason NI is such an economic failure? And that instead being an industrial heartland of a successful European nation with which you do actually share a land border (not to mention shared culture and history) might work a little better?

  • Ciarán Doherty

    Calling the relationship between NI and UK as servant and master is really off the mark.

    1) Servants are usually supported enough so as to be productive, whereas NI is neglected to the point of being nothing but a burden even despite the desire of it’s people to be productive. So it’s more like a Victorian folly living in the backyard of a wealthy family, and the same can be said for Scotland, Wales and most of the UK outside of the SE – only this folly is prone to psychotic breaks and so to avoid making a scene in front of the neighbours it should be kept as docile as possible.

    2) To be a servant implies that the master is even interested in having NI around. You can be sure that if the unionist population stopped threatening chaos at the prospect of a UI, the British government would have washed their hands of them a long time ago and happily handed over province to the south.

  • Ciarán Doherty

    The people of the rUK should think carefully about timing though. Clearly the English have not been afraid to throw caution to the wind the moment they got a chance, the rUK need to understand that the times are changing quickly and economic reality will dawn fast regardless of how slow people might want to take things for “cultural” reasons.

    As soon as the overall implications of the final deal become obvious, people in Scotland and NI need to make their decisions quickly and independently of history because no amount of flag waving (or burning) is going to put food on the table and gas in the car.

  • Croiteir

    you obviously have no knowledge of the issues the people were raising and are just reaching for an off the shelf reply, like an automaton. What was Irwin Bakery’s issues? There is the clue for you to google. At least one of them has the potential to be severely worsened by Brexit and another will have no change, at least at a superficial level of inspection.

  • Ciarán Doherty

    Chris, whatever is economically advantageous for NI will be so low on the list of priorities for the UK govt so as to be effectively ignored. If NI was an afterthought before Brexit, now that Westminster has it’s work cut out for it to even maintain economic normality in SE England, at best NI is an irrelevance, at worst it is a liability and necessary sacrifice.

    Please understand that Brexit is occurring because 85% of the UK are English and English nationalism is the prevailing political ideology amongst those voters. They are who Theresa May is pandering too, and many of them are not even aware that NI is even part of the UK, and those that are characterise you as dependent freeloaders that should be ejected.

    I am not even exaggerating mate, I lived there most of my life.

  • Hugh Davison

    Both state pension and unemployment benefits are much higher in the South.

  • Ciarán Doherty

    UK state pensions are amongst the worst in Europe afaik.

  • Hugh Davison

    Well, the Northern English are English, you see. N.I. paddies are still paddies, when all’s said and done. (Welsh are another story which I’ll touch on another time).

  • Hugh Davison

    This is why Brexit could lead to a third European war. The English are currently behaving like football hooligans looking for a fight. How juvenile.

  • Anon Anon

    It doesn’t want the conditions that go with free trade, it wants a deal that advantages it. The UK can afford a narrow view, the EU can’t as it needs to maintain the integrity of the Single Market.

  • Hugh Davison

    Do tell.

  • Fear Éireannach

    The EU is not breaking current agreements, it is the UK that is withdrawing from the agreements!

  • Roger

    I really don’t know how it would work out. I don’t think you do. I said I thought it would be a gamble. IRL post cession of UKNI to IRL would increase its population by (I think around 40%). The UKNI it would be taking over is an economic catastrophe. What that would do to the economy of present day IRL and the greater IRL’s ability to sustain the eco bubble that UKNI inhabits….well, I don’t know how it would go….it’s a gamble. Suspect even higher income taxes…they’re already much higher in IRL than in the UK….in some kind of an attempt to pay for it. Some people actually think the UK would help IRL out in terms of meeting the cost. I don’t think that for a second. On the positive side, IRL’s populate have weathered the recent austerity programs better than some other EU states…So that might be something a pro cession person could take some comfort from.

  • Roger

    “won’t be the status quo”.
    You’re not saying much there. Nothing ever stays the same.

  • Roger

    I don’t tend to express my preferences that much. Don’t think they are that interesting.

    I’ve given my opinion on what I think will happen….in summary, on this point, further relative economic decline won’t change the hearts and minds of enough UKNI people to make cession anything like a likelihood.

    There’s the whole rise of the “Northern Irish” generation; the real “demographic change”….

  • Roger

    I think we’re agreed on that. If there was a ‘peace dividend’, it was rather slim.

  • Roger

    Fair argument. There just doesn’t seem to be much uptake on it. I just see the rise and rise of the “Northern Irish” generations. They’re not interested in a United Ireland.

  • T.E.Lawrence

    Here is such English Football Supporters yesterday singing farewell to Martin McGuiness

  • ulidian

    You’re clearly missing the point. If/when a UI vote passes, the “begging bowl” would cease to exist as far as rUK is concerned – the responsibility would pass to Dublin. Why would London continue to accept any burden for what would then be part of a foreign country?

  • BonaparteOCoonassa

    As I said above, the Scottish government is legally obliged to balance it’s books. The “Scottish deficit” is the notional share of the whole UK deficit. The parliament building is Scottish anyway, and not part of our share of joint UK assets. UK jointly owned assets are things like the Armed Forces, the Bank of England(!), etc. At the last referendum Westminster told us they would not be sharing these assets if we became independent.

  • BonaparteOCoonassa
  • BonaparteOCoonassa

    But May and the Brexiteers have consistently shown a lack of common sense, otherwise we would not be where we are now.

  • BonaparteOCoonassa

    600 years of history

  • Brendan Heading

    Why is the NHS constantly touted as a benefit that we in the North would be lost without as a reason to stay in the UK?

    Because, broadly speaking, the NHS covers most of the population adequately* for very low cost and people don’t want to give that up. (*definitions of “adequate” may vary)

    Firstly, I pay a fortune in national insurance every month that would easily pay for a top shelf private insurance scheme for my whole family.

    National Insurance is just another form of income tax. Notionally it also pays for your sick pay/welfare benefits/old age pension as well as the healthcare system.

    You’ll note that in the RoI the equivalent to National Insurance is PRSI (“Pay Related Social Insurance”). On top of this, most people in the RoI must separately pay for health insurance. A significant number of RoI citizens – but not a majority – receive state-funded health insurance (“medical card”).

    Next, it takes around 3 weeks for me to see a doctor, which by then, I am either ok again or one day I’ll be in the ER or dead before the appointment comes.

    Part of the problem with the NHS is that people don’t know how to use it.

    Regular GP appointments are for routine concerns that do not need immediate help. They can take a number of weeks.

    If you are in pain or have a serious concern, you can make an urgent GP appointment and get seen the same day. I did this recently, with a throat infection. The doctor called me back a few hours later, took details, and left a prescription at the surgery reception which I collected a short time later.

    If all else fails you can go to your local A&E.

    Lastly I had to have a simple operation a few years ago

    Yeah. I’m in that situation as well – not in pain but on a long waiting list for a minor complaint. Elective surgery is significantly underfunded in Northern Ireland.

    The reason for this is not because the system is broken, but because we refuse to pay more money for it. People in Ireland pay a lot more for routine healthcare; there are no free prescriptions and no free GP visits except for those with medical cards. I’m not able to say which system is better, but when the case for reunification is being made there needs to be a clear understanding of how healthcare will be dealt with.

  • John Devane

    You really need to formulate your rambling anti Brexit nonsense into a succinct argument. To you there’s no downside to EU membership even though its one size fits all currency union is a disaster. And like any good Europhile you accept without question the EU federal dream; a political EU superstate.

  • John Devane

    Whereas Nicola Sturgeon is a paragon of common sense! Let’s leave the UK with half a chance to join the EU….Yeah a real vote winner

  • John Devane

    Interesting interpretation but not one i share. Brexit is a vote of no confidence in the EU and for good reason. The EU is not the trade block the UK joined in 1973. Today it’s a political union dead set on becoming a federal EU superstate

  • John Devane

    Good point regarding the hypocrisy of referenda. It’s the same old riposte ‘if you don’t like the result’ Neverendums

  • Kevin Breslin

    Do you leavers feel no guilt for destroying families, throwing British and Irish companies into chaos and letting the nation drift to the rocks because of of your own selfish petty abandonment issues. You were completely paranoid about the British Government when they said pro-EU things before the election, now you seem to believe the UK government’s assurances on Brexit simply because they are telling you what you want to hear.

    I put my faith in the ordinary decent people who stand up for the Europe that turned its back on intolerance and war, not the state that is trying to take back control over everyone’s freedom to be different. I put my faith in the people across 27 democracies to stand up for themselves and not be slaves to culture warriors and isolationists.

    You may think ode to joy and the blue flag with stars diminishes yourself as a Brit or an Irish person, I say that our relationship and our personality towards our closest neighbours identifies us in unbiased eyes.

    Ireland has been linked to Continental Europe in Gaelic institutions in Belgium, it’s been linked by flag and revolutionary spirit to France and the Netherlands, in architecture and heritage to the English as they were linked the Germans, we’ve been linked linguistically and spiritually to Spain, Italy and Greece, our independence movement was inspired by Hungary, our ancient settlements by Scandinavians, we joined the British in accepting refugees from Eastern Europe from the world war, and our nations were made richer for it.

    Most of all as a continent fighting resource wars, as a scientist I saw that change with the Solvay Conference where Europe came together to applying their minds to be more resourceful in the mind and not in bulk. Co-operation not nationalism built our civilization.

    I have more pride in the Ireland of De Valera who brought Erwin Schrödinger into his nation, than the one that couldn’t reconcile with his “fellow Irish in the 6 counties”.

    We were the scholars that spread literature and music to Europe and gain so much from the culture trade.

    To me being Irish and being European in identity is inseparable. If we have the means to freely move and share our ideas across Europe in good faith without undue prejudice and from a common respect for humanity dignity.

    Isolationism is just poverty engineering in every sense of the word.

  • Kevin Breslin

    A detached shouty minority that their own nation let down and blamed the EU for.

  • Kevin Breslin

    Brilliant, there’s an idea. The EU contributes to the UK single market but in return gets a load of opt-outs of its own liking for the price. 😀

  • Kevin Breslin

    I don’t think any emotional attachment to the UK forbids me in anyway from wanting self-determination managed closer to home. People say regions like Donegal are peripheral to the Republic of Ireland. Northern Ireland barely registers even on a 1 in 34 basis, and only then if there is a prospect it might actually leave.

  • Kevin Breslin

    Strategic Waters aside, what does Northern Ireland really provide the UK?

  • Kevin Breslin

    They ensured that Mivan workers from Northern Ireland could work without discrimination in Romania. They ensured agrifood providers could find minimum wage labour in jobs locals refused to work in. They ensured companies could sell services in Kanuas as easily as they could in Carlingford, and Stockholm as easy as they could in Stoke.

    Brexit has made every pound earner 20% poorer compared to a euro earner.

    For nothing more than nationalist narcissism.

  • Kevin Breslin

    We have a very risk conservative population here, especially among the political and entrepreneurial leaders of the Leave campaign. That may a large reason why it will never work here, if there’s any part that could work anywhere.

  • Ciarán Doherty

    That most English voted for Brexit based on immigration is pretty much confirmed, I would even go so far as to say as that most of them thought/think that leaving the EU will effect how many non-EU immigrants they will take. It’s not uncommon to get a one word answer from Brexit voters as to why they voted out; “muslims”.

    Scare stories of an EU superstate turning England into what it is, a mid-sized European country that is reliant on it’s neighbours like any other mid-sized country, and one with no possible neo-colonial future, definitely added some icing to the cake though.

    The point is that both of those issues when followed through result in a moderate-to-severely poorer British economy. Economics wasn’t at the core of Brexit at all, the best UKIP/BoJo could do was claim that trading with the commonwealth would offset the economic sacrifices made by leaving the EU for social/political reasons – but you really need to be seriously dense to believe that..

  • John Devane

    1 – NO Membership of Single Market OR Customs Union = End of Freedom of Movement
    2 – Control of our own Borders = NO more MASS Low Skilled Immigration
    3 – To be able to Make our own Laws = NO More European Court of Justice
    4 – To be able to make our own Trade Deals = NO More EU Trade Bans
    5 – Run by our own Elected Government ONLY = NOT by an Un-Elected EU Commission
    6 – NO more Massive Sums of Money to the EU Every Year (13 BILLION)
    7 – Access ONLY to Single Market (NOT MEMBERSHIP)

  • John Devane

    No problem with loving Europe and the shared culture. The rest is just a Tim Farron pipe dream. The EU superstate is not the right path and ignoring it with your head in the sand won’t make it go away

  • Kevin Breslin

    The pipedream is Brexit and everything advertised in the Vote Leave campaign. There is clearly nothing the UK public have hold of or will have hold of in this process but a chance to repeat the paper patriotism and pointless platitudes of the government.

    I am quite affirmative that the populist platitudes are non-deliverable and certainly non-deliverable by a government revealed in commitee to be massively out of depth with the expectations it set itself nevermind the ridiculous ones offered by Vote Leave to which there has hardly been a reform to this direction.

    It’s very clear Brexit means British elites behaving almost entirely the same way at home and in relation to their European neighbours except with a cosmetic clothes change, ever reliant that the public is as bored with the Westminster Parliament as they seem to have been with the European Parliament.

    And why not, if people have their heads in the sand dwelling about EU Conspiracy Theories the UK government get a pass on domestic issues by successful use of distraction politics. There really isn’t any additional safeguards against this abuse of power while Brexit is such a tribal expression than the vigalence of people like Tim Farron and myself who sceptically dismiss the liars and charlatans and reassert the UK’s need for connectivity and co-operation not conflict and confusion.

  • Skibo

    Rodger the rise in Northern Irish can be viewed as much as people turning their back on the British mantra. People can now see that Britain has no strategic or economic interest in Northern Ireland and as such is not prepared to have a hand in improving our future.
    We must decide at some stage, is our past more important than our future.
    What I see of the SF message is a message of positivity for the future within a progressive economy.
    What I see of the Unionist message is a message that we are a basket case and only the British can afford to keep the lights on.
    When FF produce their paper on Irish reunification, we will see an increased interest in reunification. Perhaps it will be properly investigated and costed. We have only one economic paper produced, gives a positive result.
    Michael Burke has consistently pushed the positivity of reunification.
    All I get from Unionism is “they can’t afford us”.

  • Skibo

    Free trade is not to the mutual benefit of both parties, otherwise there would be on tariffs under WTO. Free trade benefits the country with the lower labour costs and the most natural resources etc. That is one of the reasons that wages have increased within the EU. The UK tried to reject the majority of these. the working man is the one who will pay for free trade.

  • Skibo

    It is not as simple as you say. The EU require place of origin on all imports, otherwise EU countries could import from countries outside the EU, assemble and repackage and put their cut on top and sell on as made in EU.

  • Roger

    Turning their backs on the British mantra maybe. But on the Irish mantra too? Happy just to be UKers? Seems about right to me.

  • Skibo

    Chris, Unionism majority has only gone in the last election. The DUP may gamble that it was merely a blip and continue to stop previous agreements. I would suggest not to be so optimistic.
    Perhaps they believe they could increase their share of an ever decreasing pot. If that is the case then they are dicing with the Unionist share of the overall pot.
    I had previously noted that when John McAllister stepped back from NI21 because of designation as that decision would have brought Unionism right down to 50%.

  • Skibo

    OM it did not introduce no rule, it introduced real power sharing. Nationalism entered it on a positive note. Unionism were dragged in kicking and screaming and refusing to accept their partners as equal.
    It has taken ten years to show that Nationalism had done all it could to make it work. Unionism still believe they are the majority.

  • Skibo

    Rodger you are grasping at straws. The Irish mantel was always too crazy a badge of honour for any self respecting Unionist.
    The death-knell of Unionism has been sounded. The majority gone to a shared minority with Nationalism. The reaction of Unionism to nationalism in a North of equals will be a barometer to the length of time it will take Nationalism to find the foresight to make that final push.
    The omens are not good for Unionism.

  • Roger

    Shared minority? Shared with the Northern Irish UKers. The Irish nats get less votes than they did 20 years ago.

  • John Devane

    Tim Farron. A democracy denier just like yourself

  • Kevin Breslin

    Nigel Farage and Paul Nutall deny reality, as did the leavers in a Conservative government when they were told of the massive work needed to take control of borders, customs, standards, hazardous nuclear materials, freight, trade, security, educational co-operation, the border in Ireland and so forth.

    Needless to say it didn’t involve waving flags around or complaining to everyone they disagreed with, but actual legislation, labour and infrastructure as well as a lot of money.

    Money they’ve borrowed from EU countries and Trumpland as well as vested clandestine corporate interests… so yeah, what independence?

    Tim Farron is just doing what Eurosceptics did for 41 years, providing a democratic alternative, particularly to the imaginary loopy non-solution proposed by the Leave side.

    Lib Dems will overtake the Kippers before the next election, particularly when you have the likes of Nuttall thinking he’s a Professor and Professional Footballer and AM’s begging for EU money even after Brexit or suggesting the poor people to just end their lives for the sake of the British nation they want.

    The UK is gerrymandered, and gerrymandered so that only people who watch the Welsh Assembly and European Parliament know how really mentally unstable these UKIP Plastic Patriots and their Tory right-wing cronies are.

  • John Devane

    Spoken like a truly deluded EU loyalist incapable of even imagining life outside it’s self delusional imploding superstate.

    Let me remind you nation states thrived before the EU ever existed and will do so outside its ever closer closer embrace

  • Kevin Breslin

    So is Paul Nutall a Professional Footballer or a PhD holder then?

    The Tory B team UKIP, are sadly just as reflective of the denial of reality that the Conservatives have.

    Best to let these parties screw up the country by themselves so the public reject them, their anti-European nonsense, their foreigner paranoia and their Dunning–Kruger effect that “their nation” alone is superior to 27 (or rather 27.48) other nations collectively, and by “their nation” I mean the part of the UK still shackled to the false propaganda of Vote Leave.

  • John Devane

    You again inexplicably portray the vote to leave as a purely right wing reactionary vote. Labour areas also voted Brexit. Another inconvenient truth.

    Brexit is not an act of superiority as your chip on your shoulder schoolboys analysis would like it to be. Get past your anti British nonsense because this is a vote of no confidence in the EU and its political direction of travel; ever closer union. Be careful what you wish for

  • Kevin Breslin

    Lexit is dead. It’s accomplished nothing but the enablement of the Right-wing Brexiteers. Indeed it’s clear that the Right Wing Brexiteers funded the Lexit campaign, knowing full well how incompetent it was.

  • Kevin Breslin

    And how am I anti-British? … If Britain is a country that supports liberal democracy people have the right not to define it as inseparable to the idea of Brexit. I’d rather my friends and relations in Britain weren’t ideological slaves to the corrupt “Vote Leave/Change Britain” movement, their political demagogues and the right wing presses but free to think for themselves and make their own judgement calls on these matters.

    I wouldn’t wish that sort of artificial ideaocracy on any European nation.

  • John Devane

    Is Lexit dead? Many Labour voters instinctively distrust the corporate club in whose interests the EU really stands for.

  • Kevin Breslin

    They backed a corporate club funded by Banks and his cronies … it was a masterstroke in manipulating idiots.

    As far as I’m concerned Lexit is dead.

  • John Devane

    The Lexit campaign probably had nil effect upon the Brexit Labour voter. They’d already made their minds up. Similar to approximately 1/3 of SNP voters voted Brexit.

  • John Devane

    The EU is the corporate w*nkfest built in their interests only. The social chapter was just a token add on

  • Kevin Breslin

    The Brexit Labour side is pretty much a dead duck too.

    At least the SNP acknowledges those with skepticism of the EU and those who voted tactically for Brexit in part of their future relationship with Europe. I’m sure Scottish Eurosceptics aren’t impressed with the lunacy and lack of agency in Westminster either.

  • John Devane

    Disillusioned with the Labour party for sure. No longer an effective opposition.

  • Kevin Breslin

    Wow 28 Countries looking after their national interests … such as public services, science and agriculture.

    Perhaps instead they should be more focused on sending their money to UKIP and Conservative donors so they can liberate us from our corporate elites by putting their money in hedge funds, and foreign wars, and personal expenses to buy prostitutes with.

    Anyone who voted against the EU trying to send a message to corporates clearly wasted their vote.

    Brexit has accomplished nothing and will accomplish nothing in this area.

    This was all first world identity dilemmas that will soon be forgotten when the dramas of the UK’s economic hardships take over.

    They’ll still of course be used by the uber-rich Tories like Gove and Johnson and the Tory B’s in UKIP like Nutall and Hamilton, and Tory C’s like Kate Hoey and Gelsa Stuart in Labour to win votes with.

  • John Devane

    Timothy Farron is your role model. Says it all. He is thoroughly discredited and out of touch.

  • John Devane

    Or you’d have to be dense enough to believe the EU is your economic saviour.

  • Kevin Breslin

    My role models are Erwin Schodinger, Werner Heisenberg and John Forbes Nash Junior.
    I barely know Tim Farron.

  • John Devane

    Your anti Brexit bile is fun to read but so deluded. You cannot even admit any fault with your precious EU

  • John Devane

    Independence is not nonsense.

    Succumb to the EU collective all you want. The UK is leaving. The EU is not fit for purpose

  • Kevin Breslin

    Brexit isn’t about Independence or responsibility, it’s about being a moaning blowhard. It has never been about independence. Never will be about independence. Doesn’t give anyone any autonomy or self-determination in the slightest. The Brexiteers are now too tired, lethargic and too old fashioned to have any self dependency now they’ve thrown the heavy lifting onto everyone else.

  • Kevin Breslin

    If Brexit is precious to you, don’t reply to me. To me it is just a collection of junk ideas and junk concepts by windbags and demagogues.

  • John Devane

    And to me your pro EU love affair is exactly as you describe Brexit

  • John Devane

    You’re so loyal to the end. An imperialist EU loyalist unable to reconcile yourself that the UK doesn’t share the EU federal dream and has democratically voted to leave.
    The EU doesn’t give away autonomy and self determination, it grabs those powers for itself. You’re just too blind to see it or just too sold on the EU federal dream. Either way you’re welcome to it.

  • Kevin Breslin

    Self determination doesn’t mean isolation and sepratism, but if the United Kingdom really really wants it, that’s what it’s going to get.

    This doesn’t stop just at Europe though, there is a real desire to subdivide the country into conformity clicks, rather than appreciate the differences.

    I go out of my way to engage with senior Brexiteers in person, I still haven’t got any response back from the DUP’s Diane Dodds about taking responsibility for the destruction that Brexit will do to her precious status quo. Tribalists love company, they love getting paid by companies, they tend to hate the company of the marginalised though.

    To associate Brexit loyalists with the Loyalists that we get in Northern Ireland, actually probably insults the intelligence of the Loyalists we have in this region.

  • Kevin Breslin

    Right so your problem is that I love institutions and countries that have been working together for decades, rather than an ideology which has brought nothing but chaos and confusion probably for decades to the British people as the shallow ideology stifles the way of life of both Leaver and Remainer for years to come.

    I don’t hate Britain but I don’t envy it. You don’t gain independence through red mist and pathological narcissism, it comes from ability and self-discipline … something completely absent from the Brexiteer campaign.

    I like to think as myself as tolerant of national clauses and self-determination, but I am with Nichola Sturgeon, She wouldn’t want Scottish Independence won through the intolerance, dishonesty and chauvenism of the Leave campaign, I don’t want Irish unity won by the same method.

    Plastic patriotism is never based on wanting a common good, but upon personal vindication. To think that the plight of the working class reduces to not having blue passports shows how out of touch these Brexiter politicans will be when it comes to really helping people.