Nesbitt quits as UUP Leader #ae17

Mike Nesbitt has just confirmed that he will step down as UUP Leader

  • MainlandUlsterman

    Political unionism has often been deeply undermining of the pro-Union case, without realising it. The DUP in particular are unworthy of the people they represent. Poor judgment, little vision, little idea how to play the unionist hand. But the arithmetic of the SF vote means we are stuck with them. Let’s just hope they learn and develop into something better, despite themselves.

  • Skibo

    The commemoration that Michelle attended was distinctly that a commemoration of men who died. Men who died for a belief in Irish freedom and independence. It was not a coat trailing exercise and did not force their way through majority Protestant areas. They are dignified and remember the sacrifice given.
    Would you say we should not remember Poppy Day as it remembers the British Army who also too innocent lives during the troubles?
    Unionism will not compare the British Army with the IRA when it comes to commemorations yet they are very content in comparing the level of prosecutions.
    It has taken the South a hundred years to put the violence of 1916 and particularly the civil war to be able to commemorate the centenary of the Easter Rising. I for one do not believe republicans within NI should have to wait a hundred years to do the same.
    MU, you are looking in the wrong direction for change. Look internally. Can you now accept that Nationalists striving for a reunited Ireland and working politically in that direction is a fair and reasonable political policy.

  • Skibo

    The growth in representation of parties representing Remain will affect the Union. We cannot remain and have a firm union with GB. We cannot leave and maintain strong links with the EU. The two are incompatible.

  • Skibo

    JC who said 52%? 50% plus 1. That is democracy.

  • MainlandUlsterman

    Disgraceful Skibo. Words matter.

  • Skibo

    MU remember when Anna Lo stated that she would be for a united Ireland before the European election, that statement did not lower their vote.
    I believe the makeup of the Alliance are actually pragmatic unionists, i.e while it is in the interest of the economy to be aligned with GB, they will vote that way but when it is economically beneficial to be aligned with Ireland as a whole, particularly within the EU, they will vote that way.
    They are a pro EU party who are still fighting for remain and a special category for NI.

  • Skibo

    I don’t think they will fade into the background but I do believe there would be a realignment of politics in Ireland with a strong socialist wing. They may be the party that brings that together.

  • Skibo

    MU perhaps the Unionist electorate have to realise if they want good political representation on general day to day politics, they have to look elsewhere and stop blaming SF for their failures.

  • MainlandUlsterman

    Well it’s both – look elsewhere, Labour preferably, but do also blame SF. They are a disgrace.

  • Skibo

    Any words in particular, equality, respect, commemorate, dignified? What is the problem?

  • MainlandUlsterman

    They are neutral and of course reject community block politics. But they are very committed to making NI work under the GFA. That is, inside the UK. They are not working for a UI and will not do so. That’s enough for me.

  • Skibo

    See you are still in denial. Nationalists and republicans vote for SF for their policies not because of anything that went on during the troubles.
    If it was based on actions from the time of the Troubles, their vote would drop like a stone. So stop pushing that agenda. It did not work for Arlene and it will not work for you.
    It will not be until Unionism accept this and accept that the reunification of Ireland is a real, fair and very achievable political policy will they come to terms of how to actually delay the completion of the project.
    I suspect, with Brexit and all that will come with it, the reunification of Ireland will take on a life of it’s own and drive on to completion.
    The issue of Labour fighting elections in NI, I believe, is a nonstarter. Anyway Labour is a united Ireland party or are you suggesting Labour from the South?

  • Skibo

    Well MU on the basis of them being neutral then they are neither Nationalist nor Unionist and if I was you I would not rely on them to save your Union especially of the economic strategy of reunification was the making of the NI economy.
    Remember they are as pro EU as you can get.

  • MainlandUlsterman

    My ideal is a pro-Union Labour like in Wales or Scotland.

    I know people don’t vote SF directly because of the murders but it doesn’t stop them voting SF. It really should.

  • Skibo

    Well if you know that about SF voters and you accept that SF are on a democratic process and now reject the path of violence, why do you keep objecting to them?
    As for a pro union labour, look what Scotland thought of that!
    As for Wales, they take longer to catch on but Plaid Cymru are on the rise.

  • Skibo

    I would have suggested Simon also but believe his pro EU beliefs will hold him back.
    He is too rational to be a leader of DUP. There is still too much control of the “we will fight and we will be right” brigade.

  • MainlandUlsterman

    “Men who died for a belief in Irish freedom and independence.” The Provisional IRA. Come on. Find your morals.

  • Skibo

    MU you and I have debated this on numerous occasions and I believe we will never see eye to eye on it.
    Do you want to live in the past?
    Unionism demanded the Republicans leave violence and move to a peaceful political agenda. They have done that. Their message has been heard and supported. It is a message of peaceful cooperation and persuasion to achieve a majority vote for a united Ireland.
    At some stage this old message of yours has to be set aside and accept we are in a new era.
    If you have a chance look at the last leaders debate where Arlene talked about a Radical Republican agenda. The audience laughed at her. People have moved on.
    The language has to change and SF mandate has to be respected for what it is and not what you want to make it.

  • Esmee Phillips

    Silly boy.

  • scepticacademic

    a bit late, many of them (esp. in greater Belfast) have made that switch already

  • Deeman

    People have claimed the UUP are finished since Trimble yet they are still here.

  • Jollyraj

    “And BTW, like Farage in GB, if a UI was ever achieved SF would promptly fade into the background as they did in the South, after independence.”

    Probably explains why they work so hard behind the scenes to ensure it never actually comes to pass.

  • Am Ghobsmacht

    There is proof that the Protestant population has increased in the republic in modern times.

    You just don’t like to admit it as it shatters your ‘they’re all out to get us delusion’.

  • John Collins

    Oh yes. Sadly I feel you could be right there.

  • Msiegnaro

    Show me the proof.

  • Am Ghobsmacht

    What would you like?

    This is for starters – From the 2002 census in the Republic

    “Long-term decline in Church of Ireland reversed

    There were sizeable increases in the numbers classified to the Church of Ireland (including Protestant), Presbyterian and Methodist faiths between 1991 and 2002 – reversing the long-term decline recorded for these denominations during the course of previous decades. The average annual increase in the number of Church of Ireland (including Protestant)
    adherents was 2.4 per cent between 1991 and 2002 compared with 1 per cent for the population overall. The corresponding annual increases for Presbyterians and Methodists were 4.1 per cent and 6.5 per cent, respectively. Recent immigration played a key role in this turn around with non-Irish nationals accounting for one in four adherents of the combined denominations in 2002.”
    http://www.cso.ie/en/newsandevents/pressreleases/2004pressreleases/2002censusofpopulation-volume12-religion/

    http://www.independent.ie/woman/celeb-news/the-catholic-church-in-ireland-is-losing-market-share-some-would-call-this-a-healthy-development-26518946.html

    And that’s only CoI. It cites Catholic conversion as one of the factors.

    Here’s a bit more:
    http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/2005/10/24/protestant-schools-are-bursting-at-the-seams

    I won’t waste too much time on it yet because I know by now that your favourite tactic is to disenfranchise an opinion by labelling it as something negative therefore not worthy of your consideration.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/rite-reason-the-republic-is-now-a-warm-place-for-protestants-1.2388901

  • Msiegnaro

    Where are the stats?

  • MainlandUlsterman

    Republican justification of IRA terror is happening now. People are bereaved now. People are suffering from PTSD now. We are not talking about the past, here but the present. And the terrorists don’t get to decide when the suffering they caused stops. That, they cannot control.

  • Hugh Davison

    “Themmuns” being Catholics, whom you detest. After all, it’s the way you were brought up. Sad.

  • Skibo

    Any chance of any actual evidence of the statement?

  • Skibo

    Well they are nearly there. But for a few extra votes they could have fallen to fifth place.

  • Skibo

    So how did France and Germany 12 years after a bloody and cruel world war achieve reconciliation and put the future of their countries ahead of recriminations over who did what?
    At what stage do you say the past is the past?
    If you do not at some stage in the very near future hold out the hand of reconciliation, you may find NI will be a thing of the past also.

  • Skibo

    MU when was the last time you heard a SF politician defend the use of violence? It is one thing to remember your dead, it is another thing completely to celebrate their actions.
    Tell me on the 11/11/11, do you remember the actions of the British Army and the lives they took, or do you remember the sacrifice that they made. The first is glorification, the second is commemoration.

  • Robert ian Wiliams

    Why not make him an Irish senator ..he would like that.

  • Am Ghobsmacht

    You don’t believe the census summary?

    Or are you just twisting?

  • Am Ghobsmacht

    True, but cat least he was prepared to acknowledge the changing winds and bend like a willow as opposed to the bonsai-oak of the DUP.

    O’Neill’s axe was paisley, the DUP’s and unionism’s in general will be the DUP and unionism.

    Now if you’ll excuse me I must attempt to walk on rice paper without tearing it in my bamboo garden…

  • Am Ghobsmacht

    From the 1991 census:

    1991Church of Ireland (incl. Protestant) 89,187, Presbyterian13,199, Methodist, Wesleyan 5,037

    ————-

    From 200/2? census:

    2002 Church of Ireland (incl. Protestant)115,611, Presbyterian 20,582 Methodist, Wesleyan10,033

    ————-

    The link is here: http://www.cso.ie/px/pxeirestat/Statire/SelectVarVal/Define.asp?maintable=B1201&Planguage=0

  • Msiegnaro

    2002 is a long time ago.

  • Am Ghobsmacht

    And?

    You asked for proof and stats showing an increase in the Protestant population down south and i did so.

    If you have a notion that the trend has reversed since that time then the onus is on you to prove as such and it behooves you to apply the same strict criteria to your own assertions as you do to mine.

  • Am Ghobsmacht

    Will the streams fail m’Lord?

  • Skibo

    I was a little early suggesting a five year wait. I can see another election in 2019. Brexit will be the cause and it will be a single issue election.

  • Guilty of Wrongthink

    No, as I have said, DUP could give everyone a mansion and “Nationalists” would still spew hatred at them at the slightest excuse. This has been the lesson of the past century. You know that and are simply trying to the same old tactic extract concessions to create further propaganda for your goal.

  • John Collins

    Oh they gave them mansions alright. When Sean Lemass was invited by that decent, and far seeing man, Terence O’Neill to visit NI , Paisley, the man of God, was out at the Border making a scene and chuching Snowballs at him.
    This man of God consistently ranted and raved about ‘Catholics breeding like rabbits’ and said that ‘Protestants should breed for Ulster’ and yet he was supported by tens of thousands of his own community. Yet after his involvement in the formation of paramilitary groups and gun waving he gladly joined uup with McG when it suited him
    At different times over the previous ninety years before 1970 Catholic were ran out the shipyards in their droves yet you talking nonsense suggesting Ulster was somekind of a panacea for Catholics.
    You reap what you sow as Arlene Foster and Paul Givan must now realise

  • MainlandUlsterman

    Any future border referendum would be binary, is all

  • MainlandUlsterman

    You’re a fan of Brexit?

  • SeaanUiNeill

    My concern, AG, is with the myth that O’Neill was somehow the sort of person who would have passionately supported Civil Rights and ensured equality if those bad people of the PD had not mendacious marched to Derry in January 1969. The confusion comes from mistakenly conflating his role as an economic moderniser, willing to restore strong economic ties with the rest of Ireland through talks with Lemass, with the misleading belief that he was somehow a political liberal also. This distorts the reality of what was really going on, and sentimentalises what was for O’Neill political policies which were economically driven, but which in important aspects were still overshadowed by the defaults of a very settled Unionist pattern of belief. People quite naturally shape what they see from what they have come to believe. Middle class Catholics in the 1960s wanted to believe that O’Neill would want to correct the political debilities of previous decades. O’Neill, that such people would become entirely Unionist if they were offered the opportunity. In 1959 he advertised for a domestic servant, “Protestant Girl required for housework.” When he was challenged about this ad, discovered in 1972 by an enterprising journalist he inadvertently gave away the underlying pattern of how he actually always thought with his reply. He had had “some trouble” with Catholic staff. By requiring a Protestant in the ad he had hoped “to stop Catholics turning up.” Note the date,1972. While there was some distance between the crude simplicities of Paisley which went into the development of the DUP and O’Neill’s more subtile approach, it is interesting to consider how far he may have actually been flexibly “bending” in reality?

    An interesting and quite pertinent talk on the problem of such cognitive dissonance by the philosopher John Grey just before 9.00am on BBC 4 this morning “Flying saucers and an uncertain world”:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b08g7zv2

  • Tochais Siorai

    Obelisk, a preference for the UUP would only, in your case come into play once the SF candidates had been either elected or eliminated so your potential UUP pref would never have competed with SF.

  • Tochais Siorai

    Can’t see Nelson going on to do a TV series on historic train routes in Europe.

    Although they say travel does broaden the mind.

  • woodkerne

    Very good. Maybe he could do the waterways of Ireland.

  • Mark Petticrew

    The party will likely hobble on, proceeding with whatever directionless leader they’ve instated this time. Such directionless only serves to stave off the existential question of the party’s actual purpose in northern politics.

    The 2015 Westminster election in East Belfast, given that Nesbitt agreed to a unionist unity candidate in the constituency, gave us an indicator as to the hearts and minds of the UUP electorate; most rowing in behind the DUP, but a notable number went Alliance.

    This may have been a more east of the Bann and/or Belfast-centric illustration of the UUP voter, but it was nonetheless significant. With the DUP providing a home for those who wear the sash their father wore and Alliance catering for the non-flegger unionists out there, both parties have clear party identities which voters understand. With the UUP, however, not so much.

  • MainlandUlsterman

    You said above the consequences of a UI would be “like Brexit”, apparently approving a UI.

  • Tochais Siorai

    Of course he could.

    Lord Nelson – Master and Commander of the Shannon fleet keeping manners on the uppity natives.

    Rum, Sodomy and the Sash!

  • woodkerne

    Or a long weekend in the gaeltacht …

  • Am Ghobsmacht

    I dunno Gopher, I still think we need another unionist party, it just doesn’t have to be ‘nice’.

    I think Ulster people in general don’t like ‘nice’. (I’m ever more uneasy than when I go back to a Presbyterian church and the minister’s sermon is ‘nice’, it just doesn’t sit well with me and indeed other agnostics and atheists that I know, as bizarre as that sounds)

    I think the UUP should be principled, straight-talking and be brutally uncompromising with things like poppy abuse, torn flegs, Northern Irish identity, drunken parading and they should big-up their medal-wearing brigade.

    You’ll never out-DUP the DUP and to be too nice is to be in Alliance and Greens territory.

    I reckon said approach would cost them dearly in the short term but long term people will respect them for staying the course and come back.

  • MainlandUlsterman

    Hate to be petty but for the record, you did say that. You said, quoting me to start with:

    “”handing victory to one side and national humiliation to the other”

    Like Brexit, then. Want chips with your flag?”

    The point being, it doesn’t refute the negative consequences of a UI to say Brexit is also a bad thing. Brexit is a disaster and so would be a UI, however carefully it has supposedly been “planned and costed”. It’s not lack of planning that means it would fail, it’s the incoherence of the core idea (again, much like Brexit). The more I think of it, the more the parallels between the Brexit experiment and proposed UI experiment seem striking.