Five thoughts on the #MarRef (including what next for fortress Norn Iron?)

A few personal thoughts on yesterday’s referendum, and then five more…

One, this was a victory for middle Ireland, not just its radical edges. 80% in some working class areas of Dublin and majorities in plain if slender majorities each of the two Donegal constituencies (last time we’ll see that happen before the next general election probably) suggest this was genuine and popular vote, from more than the metrosexuals of D4.

Two, for once political parties and the people where on the on the same side. And because of that I suspect they had rather more agency with their constituents than they have been accustomed to for some time. I know that all three of the major parties in Donegal were heavily involved in local activism and meetings which will have enabled the county to weigh in for a Yes.

Three, the only constituency which delivered a No was three member Roscommon South Leitrim where two of the three TDs are non party members, who perhaps lacked a machine to really dig into the issue to effect a majority. Even so the margin was extremely tight, at 51.4% to 48.6%. Political parties are, it seems, occasionally good for something.

Four, although it’s far from the first time the country has defied the teachings of the church that in many ways has nurtured it, through the provisions of schools and many of its health and welfare institutions, this was probably the most significant departure between the state and church.

Five, all eyes will shift now to Northern Ireland, where we can expect an intemperate few weeks in which the DUP face a drubbing from the liberal media for (alone of all the UK’s devolved regions) refusing for equal marriage. For their part – in the short term at least – the DUP may have little choice but to circle wagons and dig in.

On this last though for those too pessimistic to believe that change can ever come to “the staleness of the kind of backwater” that would hold against the social consensus of both the rest of the UK and the rest of the island. Making noise rarely works as well as the broad and quiet coalition that brought this Yes to pass.

If the DUP won’t move this matter on, there are other unionist parties that just might. And those big 80% Yes votes in working class Dublin ought to give the DUP some serious pause for thought before attempting to move the whole debate back to zero.

The Catholic Church is not the only institution on the island that needs a reality check.

My own thoughts

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  • smcgiff

    “margin of error” – A Freudian slip? 😉

  • Peter L

    “Whoever does not receive you, nor heed your words, as you go out of that house or that city, shake the dust off your feet. 15″Truly I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgement than for that city.”
    Matthew 10:15

    Ireland just aligned itself with cities that had fire and brimstone rained upon them,congratulations Ireland on you great apostasy.Secular Ireland is now officially the land of the Sodomites.

  • Jag

    I’ve said it before – and with the Westboro Baptist Church weighing in yesterday to tell us that, in the wake of the yes vote on same-sex marriage, God, predictably, hates Ireland – that the DUP should change their motto from “Keeping Northern Ireland moving forward” (which again, is hilarious when coupled with their frequent jeremiads that Northern Ireland is on the edge of the abyss, so moving forward is probably not the best course of action!) to “God hates Fags”.

    TUV, DUP and to a lesser though still significant extent, UUP are on the wrong side of history and the homophobic anachronism of Northern Ireland will just attract increasing criticism over time (and SF, SDLP and Alliance will be the winners).

  • Jag

    Fred Phelps? I thought you’d kicked the bucket.

    Oh, and Ireland has just aligned itself with…… England, Wales and Scotland. And if you think brimstone raining down is a threat, try having rain raining down every other day! Land of the Sodomites? I think you’ll find the same proportion of sodomites in Northern Ireland, and if anything, the confining institution of same-sex marriage will probably reduce the auld sodomy anyway as sex tends to reduce over time in long-term relationships.

  • Korhomme

    How altruistic are voters? Do they vote thinking mostly, or even partially, of their own self-interest? Do they vote for things that don’t affect them? I find it remarkable that, as perhaps 95% of voters aren’t LGBT, over a million of them voted Yes; a vote that gives them neither advantage nor disadvantage.

    And while the Archbishop is wondering how to get his message across to the young—how does he know it was the young?—he might ponder if there is something about this message that people today don’t agree with.

  • Jim Nelson

    Northern Ireland was the first place to have gay weddings in the UK. http://sluggerotoole.com/2005/12/19/nothern_irelands_first_civil_partnership/
    Those people will soon be celebrating their 10th Anniversaries. Congrats to them!
    It’s not helpful or accurate for anyone to call us a backwater because the rights of a marriage have been available for longer than they have been in Ireland and many other places. Northern Ireland doesn’t have a constitution that needs changed, so a referendum isn’t required to make any adjustments to civil partnerships to provide the rights that married couples enjoy.
    What are the rights that marriage would bring? Would adoptions be affected or would that require separate changes to the law? Is NI really such a bad place to live if you are gay?

  • Dan

    So about 35% of the electorate voted Yes……is that it?

  • Ernekid

    Sodom and Gomorrah had a great night life and club scene. That sounds good to me!

  • the rich get richer

    Very impressed that the working class area were so generous with their votes for the yes.

    There is a generosity in working class people that is not always seen in other sections of society.

  • Jag

    And around 24% voted No, with around 40% not voting at all.

  • Ernekid

    What happens if a Gay Couple get married perfectly legally in the Republic or in Britain and then move to Northern Ireland? Does their marriage become invalidated in the eyes of the law when they cross the border into Northern Ireland? How long will it take for the UK Supreme Court or the ECHR to correct this legal absurdity?

    Its a bit Mortifying really, knowing that NI is the only place in Britain and Ireland where people don’t have equal marriage rights.

  • Korhomme

    Peter, please advise me where the Bible (any version of any Bible) explicitly indicates that ‘Sodomy’ is buggery or anal penetration—or whatever Sodomy is supposed to be.

    And, when you’ve done that, I’d be interested to know where Onanism is explicitly described as masturbation.

  • Gaygael

    It’s bad comparatively to other part of these islands. It’s lagging behind much of Western Europe on lgbt equality. We didn’t have weddings first. We had civil partnership. Here are some key differences.

    1) marriage. We have civil partnership only in Northern Ireland. There are different in a number of ways, mainly that CPs are allowed NO religious element, nor can they be conducted on religious institutions. There are differences in survivor pensions. And adoption, but I will come to that. This has failed 4 time at the assembly due to dup abusing the petition of concern, and SDLP and alliance being useless and Undisciplined.
    2) The blood ban. DUP ministers did everything in their power to stop the blood ban change to a one year deferral, which would keep us in line with the rest of the UK. They are happy to take blood from the rest of the UK, even though it may have be donated by MSM. This has been played out in the courts since early 2012. The successive DUP health ministers have squandered public money defending a policy for which there is no evidence.
    3) Adoption. In the rest of the uk, when civil partnership were introduced, a change was made to adoption law to allow civil partners to jointly adop. Turns out that Northern Ireland was deliberately excepted. Minster Poots was eventually beaten successively in court and he changed policy in Dec 13. Minister Wells was in the business of bringing forward guidance, which would have give preferential treatment to straight couples (probably illegal and would have been bogged down in the courts) meanwhile no guidance issued for professionals.
    4) No sexual orientation strategy. This should be an over arching framework for redressing inequality. It is in the programme for government. A pre consultation was held last year. It’s disappeared.
    5) homophobic and transphobic hate crimes. Info below. And these are just what’s reported.
    http://www.psni.police.uk/transphobic_incidents_and_crimes_in_northern_ireland_2006-07_to_2013-14.xls
    http://www.psni.police.uk/homophobic_incidents_and_crimes_in_northern_ireland_2004-05_to_2013-14.xls
    6) Endemic homophobic and transphobic bullying in our schools. the minister has said he will bring forward legislation to address this. That was in June 2014.
    7) health. Back to that ministry again. LGBT people experience significant health inequalities. Luckily, arms length bodies are beginning to address this and the minster can’t directly frustrate it.
    8) political representation. We have 3 MEPs, 18 MPs, 108 MLAs, 462 councillors.
    Just short of 600 reps. We have 3 ‘out’ lgbt councillors. That’s a huge disenfranchisement of our community.
    9) community infrastructure. despite being a section 75 group under both gender and sexual orientation, and therefore governement should consult with us. The LGBT sector has not had any money since we had a labour Secretary of State. OFMDFM have responsibility for these equality streams, but have strangled the sector for a decade. Comparatively tens of millions of pounds have been spent in other equality streams.
    10) trans specific issues. Access to health, gender affirming support, youth provision, an outdated gender recognition bill (which is uk wide) and non inclusion in current gender strategy.

    That’s off the top of my head. There are many many more. And we won’t stop till we address them all.

  • Gaygael

    It gets downgraded to a civil partnership, which is technically denuding rights. And yes it will and probably relatively soon.

  • Scitter

    Although I would rather wish our neighbours well, in some ways it is good news that Nationalist Ireland has chosen to self-destruct through effeminisation and the adoption of subversive cultural Marxist values intentionally engineered many decades ago to destroy Western Civilisation through attacking its strength through the family and attacking the civilisational defences of male leadership through the intricately linked concept of feminism (it’s apparently all about the feelz these days, and completely different things are arbitrarily now all the same whenever some drone shouts the magic meaningless word “equality” now you see – there is apparently no difference between male or female, and homosexuals are apparently capable of producing children and will now be likely more entitled to children than a heteronormal father is in a divorce court).

    A bit of irony also lost, and highlighting the stupidity of the average “progressively” brainwashed southerner, is that some seem to think that they have given payback to the RCC for a child abuse scandal involving overwhelmingly homosexual priests… by awarding the homosexual lobby. Talk about throwing the baby out with the bathwater!

    If you think that the DUP don’t have support here across the West then you are very much mistaken and been inhabiting the controlled “progressive” media bubble for far too long. After decades of having the degenerate agenda pushed in our faces, the public in the UK (and the US) is on trend of now rejecting “progressive” left-liberalism and the DUP are one of the noble bulwarks left to maintain a society with strong families by showing patriarchal leadership. They have shown some weakness recently by Jim Wells resigning instead of sticking to his guns and highlighting that practices such as surrogate designer-babies, whereby child is very intentionally denied access to its mother and father from birth, is indeed a vile form of child abuse. They must not succumb to the vastly overrepresented trendy fools in the dominant controlled degenerate media, rather think long-term and realise it is those societies with strong patriarchal family values that always are the most thriving and unbeatable.

  • Jag

    “those societies with strong patriarchal family values that always are the most thriving and unbeatable” – so presumably you’ve exchanged all your sterling for Russian rubles then?

    I’m racking my brain to think of a matriarchal or feminine society to test your musings. France, the US, Britain under Thatcher? Sadly I’m laughing so much at what you presumably think is serious commentary that it’s derailed my train of thought.

  • Ernekid

    Well said GG. It’s shameful that there’s so much to still left to do,

  • Carl Mark

    “Although I would rather wish our neighbours well, in some ways it is good news that Nationalist Ireland has chosen to self-destruct through effeminisation and the adoption of subversive cultural Marxist values intentionally engineered many decades ago to destroy Western Civilisation”
    Hell of a statement that, of course you have proof, maybe a Marxist/liberal version of ,the protocols of the elders of Zion ?
    I’m with Jag on this, bloody funny!

  • Carl Mark

    yep, that’s it! we call that democracy, only the people who voted get counted.
    probably a bigger percentage of the total electorate than many governments get to rule with.

  • Carl Mark

    I asked that very question a while ago, still waiting on evidence beyond, that’s what they told me !

  • Carl Mark

    you are Mrs White and I claim my tenner.

  • Andrew Gallagher

    Northern Ireland was the first place in the UK to have civil partnerships, but that was only because Stormont was suspended at the time and Westminster had to impose it over the heads of the local politicians. Not much to be proud of there.

  • Carl Mark

    no it wasn’t, it brought in civil partnerships not gay marriage.
    hope that clears things up for you.

  • Ernekid

    It’s great that the Marriage Referendum has brought all the lunatic head the balls out the wood work. You’d have more sense from a random word generator.

  • smcgiff

    “brainwashed southerner”

    Oh my sides.

  • Scitter

    I refer not to politicians (though Western male politicians have indeed become more effeminate enacting laws to disadvantage fathers for example) , but mainly to the consequences of increasing family breakdown and many many more children growing up without the leadership of a father.(and in this absurd extension removing a mother as well) Children need BOTH a mother and father.

    Russia may indeed end up one of the more sane places on earth. They have been through it all already and realise that only charlatans shout “equality”.

  • erasmus

    Sure, sure. And if the vote had gone the other way you would have waxed lyrical about the same old ROI unable to think freely and still in the suffocating grip of the Catholic Church.

  • Granni Trixie

    Add level playing field for women to the list?

  • Scitter

    Only with a severe amount of programming could any society think “equality” is a logical positive argument for anything. Different things do not have to be the same.

  • Jim Nelson

    I’m used the word ‘wedding’ because it’s about the celebration day rather than the life spent together. I know that civil partnership isn’t marriage, and gaygael’s post has illustrated some of the differences.

  • Carl Mark

    really, why is equality not a logical argument for anything.
    Please share with us!

  • Jim Nelson

    Helpful reply to my questions. I don’t think the points you mentioned are explained well by the groups in favour of extending same-sex marriages to NI.
    The impression I get from many of the points you mentioned is that the Department of Health has a much bigger impact on the lives of gay people than you would expect. Perhaps if it was in the hands of another party, things would improve.
    The OFMDFM seem reluctant to publish any strategy. I think that is something that could affect the day-to-day lives of people here much more than a change from civil partnerships to same-sex marriages.

  • Carl Mark

    then the use of the word is inaccurate and since your argument was based on the false assumption that gay marriage has existed in NI for a while then your argument is without merit.

  • Zig70

    A lot of people have a problem with religion and the violence wrought in it’s name, from smacking kids for not going to church to large conflicts. I don’t, religion has brought a lot of good to the world and the issues are more to do with human nature that religion itself. I see people from churches helping the poor near and far. In saying that I can’t help feeling that the fantastical nature allows the delusional to feel that they have rational arguments. I read the arguments from obviously educated souls and just thought Wow! So much thought and effort on other peoples sex lives.

  • Scitter

    Marxist “equality” is the most destructive word that has ever existed, used by demagogues to murder more people than any other word in human history. Only under totalitarian control systems can the pretence be made that things which are so inherently different should ever be made equal.

  • damon

    ”The striking thing about the Yes camp was its intolerance
    This so-called New Ireland is not so different to the old model as it likes to imagine, writes Brendan O’Neill”

    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/referendum/the-striking-thing-about-the-yes-camp-was-its-intolerance-31248496.html

  • Celtlaw

    It would be interesting to find out to what extent this working class vote was more a rejection of Catholic authoritarianism in the Republic than genuine support for gay couples.

  • Carl Mark

    Nice, I would of course wonder how the equality word was used before Marx and of course how non Marxists use it.
    And I am willing to bet that a awful lot more people killed by those who use the god word rather than those using the equilty word.

  • Korhomme

    Though he is probably pondering how it is after 12 years of indoctrination in the schools, enough of his message isn’t getting across—and doesn’t realise just how sinister and alarming this sounds.

  • Korhomme

    I think we’re both well aware that this is a ‘lawyer’s question’, one to which we already know the answer—which is, that whatever Sodomy might be, it’s not anywhere specified, rather it’s meaning is found in the workings of lubricious minds.

  • Carl Mark

    And that sir is the truth of the the matter.

  • Carl Mark

    You do love to use the effeminate word, suppose it makes you sound manly,
    Callng people girly is not really debate and you ccan go on about the màrxist/liberal/progressive conspiracy theories but some facts would be nice eg: are the lizard people involved?

  • Gaygael

    Hi Jim. We have been making the same points for nearly five years. That some people refuse to belive them and propagate the lie that civil partnerships are equal and a compliant media fails to challenge them on it is a hard tack to change.
    Health is vitally important. However the wider point is that we should not have to hope that the right minister or party choose that portfolio. Instead we have had a succession of ministers that are motivated by personal prejudice, refuse to follow evidence or expert advice, and are quite willing to squander public money in defence of the indefensible.
    The sexual orientation strategy and an inclusive gender strategy are very important. And would make significant impact across government including health. It’s not fair to dismiss this as just another blockage at OFMDFM. This is a pattern of homophobic and transphobic behaviour by deliberately blocking lgbt equality.
    In other parts of these islands, the political consensus supports lgbt equality. In Northern Ireland, the current largest party wants to go back to criminalisation.

  • Gaygael

    Sorry you are entirely right. The basis of homophobia and transphobia are rooted in sexism. These are intersectional struggles but I was trying specifically focus on lgbt issues. Sexism is intrinsic to these inequalities.

  • Carl Farce

    Marxist academics at the Frankfurt School set out such goals very clearly, and are the origins of though for the “new left”, intentionally using identity politics to create new classes of “victim” to subvert the interests of the majority population, making societies ripe for pillaging by globalist interests.

    Pointless though in pointing this out to someone with Carl Marx as an avatar. Not even Carl Marx himself believed his own nonsense theories and let slip, a bit like Gerry, that they were nothing other than a ruse so a certain minority demographic could gain control over the property of the majority.

  • Carl Mark

    Its Carl Mark, with a k,
    and some proof that KM (he was Karl by the way not Carl) didn’t believe his own theories please.
    maybe a link to these Marxists at the Frankfurt school please.
    oh and that last bit about minority ,majority, and Gerry gaining control of property, sounded like a mope to me so a bit of proof please.

  • Gaygael

    We are winning. Slowly and surely, and at times it sure doesnt feel like it, but we are. We are winning.

  • Gaygael

    Probably. Just unfortunate that they chose those initials. Someone with similar ones keeps a much more reasonable mask tightly strapped to his face.

  • Thomas Girvan

    Yes, I was the same when I was at school. Me and the mates always looked for the dirty bits in books, (Tropic of Cancer was a cracker.)
    I’ll have a look through the Bible and if I find any particularly dirty bits, I’ll get back to you.
    I’ve heard “the Song of Solomon” is quite racy, so I’ll maybe start there..

  • Thomas Girvan

    Is that a quote from Jose Mourinho?

  • Gaygael

    Only in 04/05 and 05/06 and this year.
    And the apologies for those years would be civil partnerships, hate crime and goods, facilities and services. And 14/15 would be marriage in the rest of the uk and ashers.

    That will do. For now.

  • Andrew Gallagher

    some seem to think that they have given payback to the RCC for a child abuse scandal involving overwhelmingly homosexual priests… by awarding the homosexual lobby

    And here we have the crux of the issue. The inability of some to distinguish between gays and paedophiles.

  • SeaanUiNeill

    (Good grief………!).

  • Kevin Breslin

    Your argument on Northern Ireland is that the DUP need to beware of NI21, PUP and a few Ulster Unionists like Copeland in cities like Derry, Lisburn, Belfast. Copeland might lose his seat because of a flag waving unity pact.

  • SeaanUiNeill

    But, peter, at least our broad community will have rather less subjective discrimination under the rain of fire and brimstone.

  • Kevin Breslin

    Marriage is viewed as a civil partnership while in the region as is the case in the Isle of Man. The marriage isn’t invalidated because it was legal in the country it happened. Same case for French, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Belgian and Luxembourgish same sex marriages as would be Irish and Brittish ones.

  • Kevin Breslin

    I don’t think they can downgrade the marriage as that’s a jurisdictional sovereignty matter, and also the definition of marriage of the couple. It does seem more than a semantic recognition.

  • Kevin Breslin

    Should we copy Russia’s outright permission for sexually active men who have sex with men giving blood then?

  • SeaanUiNeill

    Your first paragraph requires some serious “unpacking” with references and perhaps some judicious quotes to make clear just why you are saying what you are saying. I’m rather familiar with much of Marcuse’s work, and with Adorno’s and Walter Benjamin’s writings, and am still rather at a loss to see the connection with neo-Con Globalisation myself. I would value some real clarification.

    I’ve come across this association of progressive thinking employed to advantage capitalism somewhere else, I think perhaps it was a German book published in the later 1920s……..

  • Kevin Breslin

    Adoption, the Orientation strategy, provision of trans-specific and health support and the ban on civil marriage, possibly the blood ban too if the Republic lifts its ban these are the NI specific issues that seperate its devolved power from the rest of the islands (excluding IOM and Channel Isles). Nowhere in the UK and Ireland is there a law where the government dictates the operational independence of a church or puts limits on candidature.

    Hate crimes, bullying should be policing and justice issues already covered and matters of enforcement, but no government can hand wave away all crimes from happening. These will occur in England, Scotland, Wales and Republic of Ireland regardless of the legislature.

  • Gaygael

    And that’s the point of legal challenge. One of quite a few.
    A same sex couple married anywhere else in the UK comes to NI and they are treated as a civil partnership. Not as a marriage. Those rights, responsibilities and entitlements that would be afforded by marriage are now gone, unless they are also provided by civil partnerships.

  • Gaygael

    It’s only speculation. I think this may have played a part.

    I also think what happened and may have influenced this turnout in these areas was solidarity. Everyone is related to, works with, is friendly with or loves an lgbt person. Most people have quite a few lgbt people in their lives. They went out and voted for their equality.
    Also, grassroots campaigning in these communities really connected. They have people a sense that they could make a change and people bought into it.

    I canvassed in Drogeda and Dundalk. What struck me was the enthusiasm and the sheer number of people wanting to talk about their own experienced as an lgbt person, or the experience of their lgbt friend, family member or colleague. Huge enthusiasm to go out a vote for equality.

  • Kevin Breslin

    As I mention it’s more than simply a semantic recognition at this stage.

  • Carl Mark

    perhaps there was a certain amount of anti church feeling in the vote, but I cant help thinking that there wold be a lot of other ways it would be displayed!

  • Peter L

    Not to mention STD’s.

  • Gaygael

    Could you imagine what we would have to endure if we had a referendum in the north?
    They would make our caleban seem liberal.

  • Stephen_Glenn

    Though the Northern Ireland Act is meant to promote equality of opportunity between persons of different marital status, yet somehow we are not doing that for people who in the rest of the UK have the same marital status.

  • SeaanUiNeill

    Peter, I’d value real some published research that might back this up! I was not aware that STDs were sexually orientation specific before your informative comment.